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[Oni Jazar]

Regardless of what really happens, the FUD is working. I am full of fear, uncertainly, and doubt and this is certainly putting a damper on my BluRay disc buying.

The reason Blu-ray is quiet is because there are two major CE shows that are going to happen in just a day or so. IFA in Berlin starts tomorrow and CEDIA in the US.

"Everyone is waiting for IFA where many new products are expected to be announced," said Frank Simonis, chairman of the Blu-ray Disc Association.

Currently, five manufacturers have launched Blu-ray Disc players in Europe, including Sony Corp. and Matsushita Electric Industrial Co. Ltd. (Panasonic). Five additional vendors are expected to launch Blu-ray Disc players at IFA, while companies with players already in the market plan to introduce devices with new features, Simonis said.

Many of the manufacturers are major suppliers of HDTV sets and hope to leverage that expertise to "accelerate the adoption of Blu-ray Disc," he said.

Sony has decided to return to IFA after its absence last year, with plans to exhibit new Blu-ray Disc players, new Walkman music players and HDTV sets, according to a spokeswoman

 

[StoOgE]

Another nice thing about HDMI ? Well, it can detect a lot of infro from the TV (the ID/Name of the TV Maker for example amongst the other things) even when the TV is off... I noticed it while analyzing some PS3 Linux logs this morning (I do not remember if it was Xorg's log or dbus's log...), quite neat .

yeah, Toshiba is adding some functionality to its new HDDVD players where the player actually controls the TV via HDMI (I think it has to be a Tosh TV as well).

 

[Mrbob]

Regardless of what really happens, the FUD is working. I am full of fear, uncertainly, and doubt and this is certainly putting a damper on my BluRay disc buying.

I would just buy and enjoy what you have.

If studios continue this stalemate both formats are fucked anyway.

 

[Cosmic Bus]

IFA in Berlin starts tomorrow and CEDIA in the US.

Oh good, now I know when to stop reading this thread.

 

[DarkJediKnight]

I would just buy and enjoy what you have.

If studios continue this stalemate both formats are fucked anyway.

I think the war will be decided this holiday season regardless. We'll have a very clear idea of where the format war is going after Q4. My suspicion is, if Blu-ray is able to expand their lead or keep it 2:1, it'll be very hard to make a case for HD DVD, with all the player price drops etc.. If however, HD DVD makes significant ground and evens it up or outsells Blu-ray, I think the war is over. Studios will simply focus on HD DVD as the cheaper alternative.

For example, Warner isn't looking at the PS3 sales. For them the standalone sales are key and they keep bringing this up in press releases.

This is going to be an interesting Q4.

 

[Days like these...]

Like I have said when the Paramount deal hit, that is the sole purpose of the whole thing.
It is not to win, because Paramount couldn't swing that on their best day if they unloaded their full catalog in one day.
But if it makes idiots hesitate in buying movies on BR due to the constant unfounded horse shit and fud that people keep throwing out with their "I heard this" and "what if this" then it is worth every penny that they got.

Did he just call Ignatz an idiot? Camp Blu ray turning on each other? I'm loving ookie and forsete's snarkiness.

 

[BoboBrazil]

What I don't understand is if you haven't invested in a player yet, why would anyone want hd-dvd to win? Blu-ray is a better technology...

 

[OokieSpookie]

Did he just call DJK an idiot? Camp Blu ray turning on each other? I'm loving ookie and forsete's snarkiness.

Not calling any one person an idiot, but anyone who allows their mind to be made up by unsubstantiated crap...well...yeah.
That goes for this hd war crap, gaming system wars crap and pretty much anything else.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Haha, what? Why? Because of a bunch of "what ifs" maybes? etc?

Yes, if nothing else, I would like to wait a few weeks and see if WB is going to make any moves. And Paramount going HD is hardly unsubstantiated.

I still have hope the Universal will go neutral, if the recent news doesn't turn the sales tide this holiday season. And I don't think it will.

But on the other hand, I have been buying BDs with abandon, and now I am more conservative.

 

[Mrbob]

I think the war will be decided this holiday season regardless. We'll have a very clear idea of where the format war is going after Q4. My suspicion is, if Blu-ray is able to expand their lead or keep it 2:1, it'll be very hard to make a case for HD DVD, with all the player price drops etc.. If however, HD DVD makes significant ground and evens it up or outsells Blu-ray, I think the war is over. Studios will simply focus on HD DVD as the cheaper alternative.

For example, Warner isn't looking at the PS3 sales. For them the standalone sales are key and they keep bringing this up in press releases.

This is going to be an interesting Q4.

I hope things get rectified soon enough. I'm still in the "I want all my HD movies on one format" camp, and it looked like Blu Ray would be the way to go. But now it seems like both formats are currently doomed if these studios can't get their heads out of their asses and decide on a format to go with.

 

[Forsete]

Yes, if nothing else, I would like to wait a few weeks and see if WB is going to make any moves.

I doubt it. They have a 30% marketshare thanks to the dual format approach. If anything I think they want both formats to keep going. :lol

In other news, why is "The Seventh Seal" so god damned expensive? 399SEK? Thats about 50SEK more than even the imported titles. :/

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

I doubt it. They have a 30% marketshare thanks to the dual format approach. If anything I think they want both formats to keep going. :lol

In other news, why is "The Seventh Seal" so god damned expensive? 399SEK? Thats about 50SEK more than even the imported titles. :/

I'm not sure WB won't go exclusive, but I actually think it's more likely they'll go Blu only than HD-DVD only, once the Java stuff is worked out. But nothing is certain, and if there is a move being made, I'm sure we'll hear about it soon.

 

[Maxwell House]

A poster at AVSforum got an email back from Venturer saying that they expect this new player to retail for under $150.

Got an email back where they said they expect it to retail for under $150.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11454027#post11454027

$149.99 HD-DVD players at Wal-Mart are going to move a massive amount of units this fall. I can see Wal-Mart bundling these players with cheap HDTVs for $600-800 this Christmas.

 

[VanMardigan]

I'm not sure WB won't go exclusive, but I actually think it's more likely they'll go Blu only than HD-DVD only, once the Java stuff is worked out. But nothing is certain, and if there is a move being made, I'm sure we'll hear about it soon.

IF Warner goes exclusive, to either format, it will have nothing to do with HDi/Java. There will be very large financial incentives involved, just like for every other format-exclusive studio. Java may be preventing them from porting content they developed for HD DVD, but if the price is right, they'll ignore that.

 

[Panajev2001a]

yeah, Toshiba is adding some functionality to its new HDDVD players where the player actually controls the TV via HDMI (I think it has to be a Tosh TV as well).

I think both Sony and Toshiba (Samsung too) should also allow for an automatic calibration setting: the player know how its output is calibrated, the TV knows (is told by the player how the player is calibrated) what player is connected to it and they both work together and calibrate the HDMI input on your TV together (contrast, LCD back-lighting level,, brightness, color, etc...). They could maybe offer you a set of different valid settings (even professional calibration has some leeway to account for various subjective factors) from which you can choose your preferred video setting.

 

[StoOgE]

What I don't understand is if you haven't invested in a player yet, why would anyone want hd-dvd to win? Blu-ray is a better technology...

Welcome back to page 1.

There are advantages to HDDVD over BRD, and visa versa. Alot of us HDDVD supporters dont like BR+, like HDi content, like cheaper player prices and like the fact that there are player requirements that are standard.

There are alot of advantages to BRD too, and I understand why people root for it and purchase into it. Most seem to have bought BRD because it seems the more likely to win... but the 50GB dicss, studio support, and higher bit rate are certainly valid reasons to buy into it as well.

but dont make it sound like you are an idiot for buying an HDDVD player.

 

[StoOgE]

I think both Sony and Toshiba (Samsung too) should also allow for an automatic calibration setting: the player know how its output is calibrated, the TV knows (is told by the player how the player is calibrated) what player is connected to it and they both work together and calibrate the HDMI input on your TV together (contrast, LCD back-lighting level,, brightness, color, etc...). They could maybe offer you a set of different valid settings (even professional calibration has some leeway to account for various subjective factors) from which you can choose your preferred video setting.

That would be very cool. Maybe give you some way to tell it what lighting conditions are like too so it can take that into account. But yeah, some very basic things like knowing what color settings on the TV are closest to accurate, saturation, black level, sharpness etc.

Sadly, every TV maker out there (outside of Pio and Panny) seem to be more interested in default settings that make your eye bleed but stand out in a show room. Unless the manufacturer actually puts "NTSC standard" like settings into the TV to begin with, the likelyhood they actually care about this is zero. That is why I commend Panny especially for their new plasmas that have near dead on color and gamma right out of the box.

 

[BoboBrazil]

Hdi will be available once bd java is finished on blu-ray. Player prices will not mean much in another year when both bluray and hd-dvd are selling for $100. I see the short term benefits of hd-dvd, but what are they long term?

 

[fatty]

Wow, the mood of this thread has certainly changed since the last time I posted in it.

It's funny to go back and read everyone's reactions to the different announcements, even the thread title was changed. :lol

I'm thinking about jumping on the Amazon deal to pick up the A2. Is there a good site that compares the HD quality of HD-DVD and Blu-ray disc transfers to each other and standard DVDs?

 

[VanMardigan]

I'm very disappointed in the HD A20. As you guys know, I picked up a new 1080p set, so I'm looking for some HDMI 1080p devices. I pretty much had settled on the HD A20, but apparently it sucks at 1080p (as per cnet review). My tv has a very good de-interlacer, so I'm not going to get a 1080p device if a 1080i device + my tv is superior. And I'm not getting the A2 since it's not 1080p and my 360 add-on displays a very nice 1080i picture already.

 

[ManaByte]

Hdi will be available once bd java is finished on blu-ray.

HDi on Blu-Ray?

 

[BoboBrazil]

not hdi itself, but the features of it...

 

[VanMardigan]

not hdi itself, but the features of it...

So, what are you suggesting? That nobody buys HD discs until Blu Ray gets its shit together either later this year or (more likely) next year? In case you forgot, these formats launched last year. HD DVD was ready to go, and Blu Ray wasn't fully locked and loaded. Still the same situation a year later, so why wait for Blu Ray to get their act together when I can just load up a lower cost HD DVD player and get comparable picture and audio quality? And you wonder why someone would root for HD DVD?

 

[Wulfer]

So, what are you suggesting? That nobody buys HD discs until Blu Ray gets its shit together either later this year or (more likely) next year? In case you forgot, these formats launched last year. HD DVD was ready to go, and Blu Ray wasn't fully locked and loaded. Still the same situation a year later, so why wait for Blu Ray to get their act together when I can just load up a lower cost HD DVD player and get comparable picture and audio quality? And you wonder why someone would root for HD DVD?

Ladies and gentleman we have a winner!

Also, Van didn't even talk about all limitations BR puts on your ass. (No manage copy, region coding, BR+ (think Sony's root kit goodies and you get the idea.)....


So, yea some of us wouldn't mind the other guy (HD) winning

 

[BoboBrazil]

Thinking long term as in one of these formats need to last around 10 years, blu-ray has an advantage since it has more storage space and can do higher bitrates. Right now hd is a niche market. High market penetration of these players won't be atleast for another year or two. The hdi stuff is nice right now, but what happens in 6 months when hd-dvd doesn't have that over blu-ray? Blu-ray can do better audio quality(pcm), better video quality, and hold more extras on the disc. Think about the long term benefits of each format...

 

[BoboBrazil]

What is manage copy? Region coding is up to the studios to put on the disc. Most movies as far as I know don't have it on blu-ray. Even so, I don't order movies from over seas and most other people don't either. BR+ I don't care about really either. All I care about is which format can put the movie in the best quality on my tv to be honest...As I've said before I want blu-ray to win because of the storage benefits, but I don't care that much if hd-dvd wins as long as they just go to one format SOON.

 

[mrklaw]

IF Warner goes exclusive, to either format, it will have nothing to do with HDi/Java. There will be very large financial incentives involved, just like for every other format-exclusive studio. Java may be preventing them from porting content they developed for HD DVD, but if the price is right, they'll ignore that.

Java may also be *good* for Warner. As a large company that also does TV, java is used in many set top boxes to control interactive content. As a cable company, that might be something TW already have expertise in.


and why would all studios go for HDDVD as its the cheaper option? Disc production is on a par costwise (perhaps due to subsidy from Sony, I don't really care), and actual cost is most likely higher on HDDVD due to the unhealthy focus on combos

 

[ManaByte]

What is manage copy?

It allows you to legally make copies of the movie. You can put the HD disc in your PC and legally burn DVD copies.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Lack of Region Coding also cost HD DVD a huge share of studio support.

Unless you import a lot, I think the trade-off is more on the side of *having* the coding and the studios that insist upon it. Even then, multi-region players and hacks will always come. They did for DVD, they will for BluRay.

 

[ManaByte]

Even then, multi-region players and hacks will always come. They did for DVD, they will for BluRay.

Has anyone broken BD+ yet?

BD+ is effectively a small virtual machine embedded in authorized players. It allows content providers to include executable programs on Blu-ray Discs. Such programs can:[14]

* examine the host environment, to see if the player has been tampered with. Every licensed playback device manufacturer must provide the BD+ licensing authority with memory footprints that identify their devices.
* verify that the player's keys have not been changed.
* execute native code, possibly to patch an otherwise insecure system.
* transform the audio and video output. Parts of the content will not be viewable without letting the BD+-program unscramble it.

If a playback device manufacturer finds that its devices have been hacked, it can potentially release BD+-code that detects and circumvents the vulnerability. These programs can then be included in all new content releases.

The specifications of the BD+ virtual machine are only available to licensed device manufacturers.

 

[VanMardigan]

and why would all studios go for HDDVD as its the cheaper option? Disc production is on a par costwise (perhaps due to subsidy from Sony, I don't really care),

Well, yeah, Sony is subsidizing costs, but think about scale and you'll realize that it's not sustainable. Especially if you want to do BD50. Say Blu Ray takes off, will Sony be able to continue to subsidize disc manufacturing costs? No. And how quickly can they ramp up BD50 manufacturing plants (they currently have only two worldwide) and drive down those costs? In a way, it's a good thing Blu Ray didn't run away with the HD disc market, because they will be experiencing some very costly growing pains during the transfer from niche to mainstream and the longer they can put that off, the more time they have to drive costs down and manufacturing efficiency up.

edit:

BD+ is arcane and scary, all in one. It sounds like the type of stupidity record studios are moving away from with DRM. So what if Fox holds out to wait for BD+? Studios will soon learn what record companies are slowly realizing. Keep putting arcane restrictions your content, and you sacrifice legit sales. Plus, you'll still get hacked.

I think managed copy is the best way to go. Let people make legal copies and spread their content around their house. Someone is much more likely to spend money of a product if they feel that they have control over its use (even if you're managing that control).

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Has anyone broken BD+ yet?

Has anyone *used* it yet? This is a lot like the argument against DVD adoption that I quoted way back when, with people complaining about region coding and macrovision.

And even if it *isn't* broken, would you rather have imports or Disney and Fox? I know which I'd choose.

 

[BoboBrazil]

As far as managed copying goes, while it might be nice to give regular copies of movies to friends, I buy hd movies to watch in hd. I don't want sd copies of a hd movie. There are already ways to copy both blu-ray discs and hd dvds in hd using certain programs as long as you spring for the media...

 

[ManaByte]

As far as managed copying goes, while it might be nice to give regular copies of movies to friends, I buy hd movies to watch in hd. I don't want sd copies of a hd movie. There are already ways to copy both blu-ray discs and hd dvds in hd using certain programs as long as you spring for the media...

Yarrr?

 

[BoboBrazil]

If I buy a hd movie, I'm allowed to back it up for my own needs. It is not considered pirating..It is the same as managed copy...

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Well, yeah, Sony is subsidizing costs, but think about scale and you'll realize that it's not sustainable. Especially if you want to do BD50. Say Blu Ray takes off, will Sony be able to continue to subsidize disc manufacturing costs? No. And how quickly can they ramp up BD50 manufacturing plants (they currently have only two worldwide) and drive down those costs? In a way, it's a good thing Blu Ray didn't run away with the HD disc market, because they will be experiencing some very costly growing pains during the transfer from niche to mainstream and the longer they can put that off, the more time they have to drive costs down and manufacturing efficiency up.

I read that BD25's were cheaper to make than HD DVD 30s. That's before economies of scale and ramp-up costs level the playing field.

This is yet another transitory advantage of HD-DVD, and one which a) is nullified by Sony subsisdy and b) is reversed by the added cost of Combo discs.

I could give a rat's ass how much a disc costs to press if I end up buying it cheaper in Blu than Red.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

I note the responses to the question "If you haven't bought a player yet..." are met with responses that make sense if you have a player*today* and ignore the fact that long-term, Blu is better.

Especially if you have any faith in formats ultimately getting cracked, which I do.

 

[BoboBrazil]

On average the blu-ray versions of movies I buy that are on both formats at Wal-mart are usually atleast $5 cheaper on blu-ray...

 

[VanMardigan]

I read that BD25's were cheaper to make than HD DVD 30s. That's before economies of scale and ramp-up costs level the playing field.

This is yet another transitory advantage of HD-DVD, and one which a) is nullified by Sony subsisdy and b) is reversed by the added cost of Combo discs.

I could give a rat's ass how much a disc costs to press if I end up buying it cheaper in Blu than Red.

Sony subsidy cannot nullify the media cost in the long term, which was my point. I agree about the added cost of combo discs, but Warner has the right idea, by issuing HD DVD only versions. Universal has done this as well. Once they both start to offer HD DVD-only versions at the same time as the combo, then even that argument is null. Besides, you assume that you're getting the same thing when you buy a Blu Ray version of a movie vs. a combo disc. You and a lot of enthusiasts don't see the advantages, but some of us appreciate the flexibility that a combo disc provides.

I note the responses to the question "If you haven't bought a player yet..." are met with responses that make sense if you have a player*today* and ignore the fact that long-term, Blu is better.

Because if you haven't bought a player yet, you can either get HD DVD now fully featured, or wait till next year when Blu Ray gets its shit together. Besides, in the same way that the disc pressing costs are immaterial to you as a consumer, the supposed technological advantage of Blu Ray is immaterial since HD DVD can and has delivered comparable picture and audio quality, and with a full set of interactive features to boot.

 

[jjasper]

It's likely due to Order of the Phoenix possibly using extensive HDi features like the Matrix, Batman Begins, etc.

I somehow doubt that is the reason for it being HD DVD only (if it is). Warner seems to want to release together even if the Blu Ray is inferior now (Blood Diamond, 300). Toshiba could have ponied up the money for it to come only to HD DVD though as it will be a much bigger seller than the boxed set.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Sony subsidy cannot nullify the media cost in the long term, which was my point.

And my point was that they would not need to. Ramp-up is what makes the cost high now, as HD DVD fans are eager to remind that the DVD pressing plants can be converted cheaply. This is a very transitory advantage.

I agree about the added cost of combo discs, but Warner has the right idea, by issuing HD DVD only versions. Universal has done this as well. Once they both start to offer HD DVD-only versions at the same time as the combo, then even that argument is null. Besides, you assume that you're getting the same thing when you buy a Blu Ray version of a movie vs. a combo disc. You and a lot of enthusiasts don't see the advantages, but some of us appreciate the flexibility that a combo disc provides.

Releaseing two SKUs is going to kill any cost advantage dead to the manufacturer. That's additional packaging and marketing costs, as well as inventory costs.

I see the advantages, but again, that's a transitory thing (albiet a longer transision) and doesn't really benefit me personally very much at all, as the only discs I play outside the living room are kids videos in the care. Those can stay SD.

 

[Wulfer]

As far as managed copying goes, while it might be nice to give regular copies of movies to friends, I buy hd movies to watch in hd. I don't want sd copies of a hd movie. There are already ways to copy both blu-ray discs and hd dvds in hd using certain programs as long as you spring for the media...

Nope your wrong sorry, BD+ as far as we know has not been released and no you won't be able to copy it! Atleast that's what Sony wants you to think, so another words their won't be managed copy for BR. Now your starting to see where the lines have been drawn. You have some (HD-DVD owners) when they buy a movie think the movie should be their's to do with what they please. (Afterall, they bought and paid for the movie and it's in physical form, not a rental). Then you have others (Sony, Fox, Disney etc.) that think we shouldn't own the movie in the first place. Another words we rent it but, in a weird way still own the the movie and we can use the movie provided we the customer agree to strict rules of use.) How would you like to buy a $35,000 sportcar and the manufacturer said if he catches you speeding, he going to take your car away. That in a nutshell is what the movie studio(s) want and Sony's trying to provide as long as they can distribute the content AKA Blu-ray. Now you know why the fighting lines have been drawn.

 

[ManaByte]

If I buy a hd movie, I'm allowed to back it up for my own needs. It is not considered pirating..It is the same as managed copy...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Millennium_Copyright_Act

If you are bypassing the copy protection on the disc to make a copy, it is illegal pirating.

Managed Copy is DRM that allows you to legally make a limited number of copies from the disc and is supported by both HD formats.

 

[StoOgE]

I note the responses to the question "If you haven't bought a player yet..." are met with responses that make sense if you have a player*today* and ignore the fact that long-term, Blu is better.

Especially if you have any faith in formats ultimately getting cracked, which I do.

I dont think Blu is better in the long run. I have yet to see any of BRD's "advantages". PQ and AQ are the same (PCM isnt better than TrueHD) and I havent seen anything on BRD that hasnt been matched by HDDVD. I understand why people think these things are going to eventually make for a better movie experience, I just disagree with them.

However, I have seen the tangible difference that HDi and having standard features bring to the table. BRJ may or may not manage to do what HDi does. At best for BRD its gonna be a wash, but even then not all players support it. That still doesnt answer to the fact that BRD lacks standard features across the board so things like web content are less likely to be supported.

Not to mention, this is just BRD 1.1. What happens with 2.0 comes out? You could have 3 classes of BRD players that have major compatibility issues at the worst and lack access to features at the least. I think HDDVDs plan is more aproachable by the masses than BRJs aproach.

and BR+ scares me. Alot.

 

[ManaByte]

and BR+ scares me. Alot.

I would go so far to say that BD+ is nearly the next-generation DIVX in terms of its potential to completely shut down your entire HD library if someone manning the button is PMSing.

 

[Oni Jazar]

Well, yeah, Sony is subsidizing costs, but think about scale and you'll realize that it's not sustainable. Especially if you want to do BD50. Say Blu Ray takes off, will Sony be able to continue to subsidize disc manufacturing costs? No. And how quickly can they ramp up BD50 manufacturing plants (they currently have only two worldwide) and drive down those costs?

It looks like there are 8 factories that manufacture BD50 discs and 3 are from Sony.

http://www.emedialive.com/articles/readarticle.aspx?articleid=11425#ixl

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

BD+ scares me not in the slightest. There's no precedent for the kind of Big Brother thing, and consumers would revolt (and sue) if it were used the way you describe. Far, far more likely is that it will be used to shut down modifications to players, and even that will be worked around fairly quickly.

It's all Chicken Little, and not unlike the complaints made about DVD at its inception.

And Stooge, you're comments about BD vs HD DVD *again* point out the here-and-now. If you think the BD future stuff won't happen, back it up-- saying that you see the benefits of HDi right now totally ignores that the point being made isn't about "right now."

 

[rc213]

So how does Managed Copy work?

 

[TAJ]

On average the blu-ray versions of movies I buy that are on both formats at Wal-mart are usually atleast $5 cheaper on blu-ray...

Fox prices cancel out combo prices.

 

[mrklaw]

I dont think Blu is better in the long run. I have yet to see any of BRD's "advantages". PQ and AQ are the same (PCM isnt better than TrueHD) and I havent seen anything on BRD that hasnt been matched by HDDVD. I understand why people think these things are going to eventually make for a better movie experience, I just disagree with them.

However, I have seen the tangible difference that HDi and having standard features bring to the table. BRJ may or may not manage to do what HDi does. At best for BRD its gonna be a wash, but even then not all players support it. That still doesnt answer to the fact that BRD lacks standard features across the board so things like web content are less likely to be supported.

Not to mention, this is just BRD 1.1. What happens with 2.0 comes out? You could have 3 classes of BRD players that have major compatibility issues at the worst and lack access to features at the least. I think HDDVDs plan is more aproachable by the masses than BRJs aproach.

and BR+ scares me. Alot.

I agree with you techincally. Java/BR interactivity isn't quite there yet. However, I don't give a shit about whizzy menus or stupid sound effects. I was happy enough with DVD menus.

And BR+ won't be used by many studios, but it may be used by eg Fox. Look at it the other way. Although bluray has that in its pocket, and also region coding (boo), that means they get more studio support. So although its bad for consumers, those are tangible benefits for studio control freaks.