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Hi-Def Media Lovefest: The war is over and we can all go home.

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S

SRG01

Member
thaivo said:
Nice article from HighDefDigest, the author also he explains that he has issues with HD DVD as well, and that his next article will address the problems with HD DVD combo discs.
Click to expand...

Meh, manufacturability and reliability of the players? The first one may be true, but SoC solutions have just been announced. That, and there has been little to no reports on BD player failures. Same with HD DVD.

Furthermore, was Paramount really pressing their own BD discs? I really doubt that they were. If the same codec and transfer were used, then why would HD-DVD costs be any lower?

Finally, the following is the kicker: if the total market was as poor as the author claims, then why would Paramount reinvest their money in the lesser of the two sides instead of bailing out on the HD industry altogether? It would make no sense for Paramount to be losing even more money unless there was a significant financial incentive -- which there was.
 
M

mrklaw

MrArseFace
DarkJediKnight said:
The thing is, I resorted to buying a Sony BDP-300, not because I wasn't satisfied with the PS3's video and audio, but because Home Theater Psychos like me WILL NOT tollerate the noise the PS3 males - especially in dialog heavy movies. The 360 is even worse, which is why I don't have the add-on. The casuals gamers don't care, but I can tell you hardcore HT enthusiasts do.
Click to expand...

agree with you for the add-on, disagree with the PS3. Mine is quiet enough for me. Maybe the fact that I have a projector about 5ft above my head when watching movies masks the PS3 noise (even though its a very quiet projector)
 
R

rubso

Banned
Wollan said:
I looked over the last few pages and didn't see anything about it. Some big Chinese film company (Acer & China Film Group) goes Blu-ray only:
News story @ Times Online
Click to expand...
old, that was announced in the Blu-ray IFA day, Acer supports HD-DVD as well, the big Chinese company won't make players until sometime in 2008 (?)
 
K

Kolgar

Member
I couldn't find Black Hawk Down (Best Buy had it for $13.99 but it was always sold out) - so I went online and to my surprise, found it for that price. No tax or shipping either. Incredible.

Reviews say that as the second BD50, it looks phenomenal; can't wait to check it out. I also have Click (the first BD50) and I thought it looked good, but perhaps due to the style of movie, it didn't wow me as being beyond anything else I've seen in HD.

Thinking about picking up Apocalypto today as it was an amazing (and amazing looking) movie.

Also, my HD-A2 is shipping from Amazon already so I will be awash in new HD goodness by next week. In particular, I'm looking forward to watching Letters to Iwo Jima and, on the lighter side, Happy Feet.
 
T

thaivo

Member
SRG01 said:
Meh, manufacturability and reliability of the players? The first one may be true, but SoC solutions have just been announced. That, and there has been little to no reports on BD player failures. Same with HD DVD.
Click to expand...
As it relates to the reliability of players, perhaps he means that HD DVD is a standard platform, where as BD players will soon be quite diverse in configuration. Supposedly, when programming Java, some players have been having difficulty (i.e., Pirates OTC)

SRG01 said:
Furthermore, was Paramount really pressing their own BD discs? I really doubt that they were. If the same codec and transfer were used, then why would HD-DVD costs be any lower?
Click to expand...
Not sure any of the studios press their own BD's, Paramount as far as I know didn't even encode their own discs (Sony was doing it for them). Costs are lower primarily due to the failure rate of BD DL discs. Reportedly Sony factories have a 40% success rate, and non-Sony fabricators have a success rate of 10%! Reported HD DVD DL has a success rate of 95%. So the cost savings are seen in this regard.

SRG01 said:
Finally, the following is the kicker: if the total market was as poor as the author claims, then why would Paramount reinvest their money in the lesser of the two sides instead of bailing out on the HD industry altogether? It would make no sense for Paramount to be losing even more money unless there was a significant financial incentive -- which there was.
Click to expand...
I've never disputed marketing incentives, but marketing incentives obviously allow for great exposure for less costs, ultimately helping both the content provider and the format itself. Additionally, Paramount is likely to have been privy to the new lower cost players, etc., which helped them make their decision.
 
I

Ignatz Mouse

Banned
thaivo said:
Not sure any of the studios press their own BD's, Paramount as far as I know didn't even encode their own discs (Sony was doing it for them). Costs are lower primarily due to the failure rate of BD DL discs. Reportedly Sony factories have a 40% success rate, and non-Sony fabricators have a success rate of 10%! Reported HD DVD DL has a success rate of 95%. So the cost savings are seen in this regard.
Click to expand...

I head stats like these a year ago. I have a hard time believing they're still true.
 
M

mrklaw

MrArseFace
thaivo said:
Not sure any of the studios press their own BD's, Paramount as far as I know didn't even encode their own discs (Sony was doing it for them). Costs are lower primarily due to the failure rate of BD DL discs. Reportedly Sony factories have a 40% success rate, and non-Sony fabricators have a success rate of 10%! Reported HD DVD DL has a success rate of 95%. So the cost savings are seen in this regard
Click to expand...

Why would a studio care what the failure rate is? All they should care about is how much it costs *them* and whether a dupe house can deliver. Sony can insulate their customers against the real cost

It must annoy Sony though, if they were doing paramount's encodes
 
K

Kolgar

Member
brocke said:
so after the announcement is it worth going with either blu ray or hddvd or just waiting it out?
Click to expand...

Do you enjoy gambling? That's pretty much what you're doing if you jump in now. Either or both formats may fail at some point in the future, either due to one format winning out or digital downloads becoming the norm. Personally, I think physical discs will be around for a while so we will see a winner eventually.

Since studio support is divided between the formats, the first thing you should do is look at which format has more of the movies you want to watch. Next, consider how much you're willing to spend (gamble) to see those movies in HD.

Ask yourself if you have the stomach to spend hundreds of dollars on a player and new movies only to possibly see your format of choice go down in flames. If that's a risk you're willing to take, HD DVD is the more affordable option today. I first jumped in with a 360 add-on last holiday for $160 and last week, purchased a Toshiba HD-A2 player from Amazon - with 8 free movies - for $210.93 shipped. At that price, you may say two bills isn't that much of a risk - and you can always just rent movies instead of buying them. Or you could buy a PS3 for $499 and enjoy both Blu-ray movies and video games. (PS3 is a fantastic Blu-ray player and right now, the most future-proof one on the market.)

You may also want to see what happens at CEDIA next week. I don't expect any big bombs from either camp, necessarily, but there are rumors that Warner Bros. may be up to something. This format war could still go either way and we may not see a resolution for some time.

Good luck.
 
T

thaivo

Member
mrklaw said:
Why would a studio care what the failure rate is? All they should care about is how much it costs *them* and whether a dupe house can deliver. Sony can insulate their customers against the real cost

It must annoy Sony though, if they were doing paramount's encodes
Click to expand...
I'm not sure how familiar you are with the business world, but manufacturers do not just absorb costs, they pass it down to their clients. There is a high possibility that Sony was subsidizing the costs, but such a model is not sustainable as volumes grow.
 
H

HyperionX

Member
brocke said:
so after the announcement is it worth going with either blu ray or hddvd or just waiting it out?
Click to expand...

Just go with Blu-ray. It's still the extremely likely winner of the format wars given all the advantages it has. A lot of the "pro-HD-DVD" people seem to strive solely on the idea that Blu-ray may not win, even though there's virtually no chance of HD-DVD winning, nor does the exact method of a HD-DVD victory even comes into their minds. Frankly, I think they have an alternate agenda regarding this whole thing.
 
H

HyperionX

Member
Ignatz Mouse said:
I head stats like these a year ago. I have a hard time believing they're still true.
Click to expand...

Even if they were true, it's still irrelevant, since a disc cost about $0.50 to make anyways. No consumer is going to see the price difference from their point of view.
 
F

Frankfurter

Member
HyperionX said:
Just go with Blu-ray. It's still the extremely likely winner of the format wars given all the advantages it has. A lot of the "pro-HD-DVD" people seem to strive solely on the idea that Blu-ray may not win, even though there's virtually no chance of HD-DVD winning, nor does the exact method of a HD-DVD victory even comes into their minds. Frankly, I think they have an alternate agenda regarding this whole thing.
Click to expand...

HD DVD is cheaper (for the studios and also for the consumer in terms of the players) and studio support atm seems pretty much divided. I don't see how Blu Ray is the extremely likely winner at the moment.

Kolgar said:
I first jumped in with a 360 add-on last holiday for $160 and last week, purchased a Toshiba HD-A2 player from Amazon - with 8 free movies - for $210.93 shipped.
Click to expand...

So basically you bought 8 HD DVDs and got an HD DVD player for free :D
 
L

LM4sure

Banned
brocke said:
so after the announcement is it worth going with either blu ray or hddvd or just waiting it out?
Click to expand...

Get hddvd. Everyone knows it's going to win. It'll get the "casual viewers." Only people watching blu rays are the ones that own a PS3. Young kids. Dorks. etc.
 
C

captive

Joe Six-Pack: posting for the common man
LM4sure said:
Get hddvd. Everyone knows it's going to win. It'll get the "casual viewers." Only people watching blu rays are the ones that own a PS3. Young kids. Dorks. etc.
Click to expand...
giant_rolleyes.gif
 
H

HyperionX

Member
Frankfurter said:
HD DVD is cheaper (for the studios and also for the consumer in terms of the players) and studio support atm seems pretty much divided. I don't see how Blu Ray is the extremely likely winner at the moment.
Click to expand...

There are still no serious hardware supporters other than Toshiba, and software sales are still very lopsided towards Blu-ray. Also, stand-alone sales for Blu-ray are also coming close to, if not exceeding, stand-alone sales of HD-DVD players. Those alone make it hard to believe that HD-DVD is going to win, but there's plenty more. Like the very existence of the PS3, or that Blu-ray still has majority studio support (in terms of total movie revenue), or that the PC makers have mostly all sided with Blu-ray or gone neutral, or that there are far more independent Blu-ray disk makers.

The structural advantages that Blu-ray has are huge, and the only conceivable way HD-DVD is going to win is via some colossal war of attrition where effectively no one wins. On the other hand, a Blu-ray victory would only mean a serious loss to Toshiba and the relatively few people who bought a HD-DVD player.
 
S

SlickWilly223

Time ta STEP IT UP
HyperionX said:
There are still no serious hardware supporters other than Toshiba, and software sales are still very lopsided towards Blu-ray. Also, stand-alone sales for Blu-ray are also coming close to, if not exceeding, stand-alone sales of HD-DVD players. Those alone make it hard to believe that HD-DVD is going to win, but there's plenty more. Like the very existence of the PS3, or that Blu-ray still has majority studio support (in terms of total movie revenue), or that the PC makers have mostly all sided with Blu-ray or gone neutral, or that there are far more independent Blu-ray disk makers.

The structural advantages that Blu-ray has are huge, and the only conceivable way HD-DVD is going to win is via some colossal war of attrition where effectively no one wins. On the other hand, a Blu-ray victory would only mean a serious loss to Toshiba and the relatively few people who bought a HD-DVD player.
Click to expand...

Hmmm, we'll see. I wouldn't rule out an HD-DVD victory just yet; the underdog does win every once and a while, and it has been getting some good luck in the past month or so. Let's wait for the holiday season to see where the big sales are headed.
 
The Main Event

The Main Event

Member
brocke said:
so after the announcement is it worth going with either blu ray or hddvd or just waiting it out?
Click to expand...

Do you want Transformers, The Bourne Ultimatum and Battlestar Galactica this holiday season, or do you want Pirates 3, Spider Man 3 and Lost Season 3?

Hint: If you can't decide, go with the cheaper one.
 
I

Ignatz Mouse

Banned
The Main Event said:
Do you want Transformers, The Bourne Ultimatum and Battlestar Galactica this holiday season, or do you want Pirates 3, Spider Man 3 and Lost Season 3?

Hint: If you can't decide, go with the cheaper one.
Click to expand...


Or Ratatouille, Simpsons, and Die Hard 4. Also on BluRay


Hint: Cheaper disc prices mean more than cheaper players in the long run.
 
I

Ignatz Mouse

Banned
Zen said:
Link/source?
Click to expand...


Quick search sez:

http://www.videobusiness.com/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA6467868
http://avzombie.com/blog/2007/08/12/hd-dvd-under-pressure-as-blu-ray-sales-swell/

Sounds like, despite the price gap, Standalone BluRay players have been picking up in sales since they got under $500.

They note HD-DVD players sales are on the rise as well, but the BluRay players are catching up/have caught up. This is retailer-by-retailer reports, we'll need hard numbers to know for sure. But that looks like the trend.
 
M

Mrbob

Member
So is 1080P24 really all it is cracked up to be?

Everyone who says they see a BD movie on 1080P24 (soon on hd dvd) say their jaws drop, and the image creates a quasi 3D effect you can't get elsewhere.

I just wonder if it is fact or fiction. I have no where locally to test out 1080P24 so I have to rely on others.
 
The Main Event

The Main Event

Member
Ignatz Mouse said:
Or Ratatouille, Simpsons, and Die Hard 4. Also on BluRay


Hint: Cheaper disc prices mean more than cheaper players in the long run.
Click to expand...

Unless of course, one buys as many Fox/Sony BD titles as HD DVD Combo Discs.
 
H

HyperionX

Member
Badabing said:
Hmmm, we'll see. I wouldn't rule out an HD-DVD victory just yet; the underdog does win every once and a while, and it has been getting some good luck in the past month or so. Let's wait for the holiday season to see where the big sales are headed.
Click to expand...

While of course you can't totally rule out an HD-DVD victory, it's chances are quite slim, and any sort of victory is going to be so costly that it would be much better for the industry that Blu-ray had won.

Quick search sez:

http://www.videobusiness.com/index.a...leid=CA6467868
http://avzombie.com/blog/2007/08/12/...y-sales-swell/

Sounds like, despite the price gap, Standalone BluRay players have been picking up in sales since they got under $500.

They note HD-DVD players sales are on the rise as well, but the BluRay players are catching up/have caught up. This is retailer-by-retailer reports, we'll need hard numbers to know for sure. But that looks like the trend.
Click to expand...

Thanks.
 
J

JB1981

Member
Mrbob said:
So is 1080P24 really all it is cracked up to be?

Everyone who says they see a BD movie on 1080P24 (soon on hd dvd) say their jaws drop, and the image creates a quasi 3D effect you can't get elsewhere.

I just wonder if it is fact or fiction. I have no where locally to test out 1080P24 so I have to rely on others.
Click to expand...
no. it just makes movies look weird
 
H

HyperionX

Member
Days like these... said:
Talk out your ass much? Or you got something to back up your opinion?
Click to expand...

Does the PS3 not exist in your world? Also, there are far more Blu-ray disk manufacturing plants than HD-DVD, as well as more BD player makers. All of these guys will lose. Also, Sony is never going to jump to HD-DVD unless 5-10 years have passed (see Sony and ATRAC, Betamax), and Fox is paranoid enough about piracy to not to jump for years too. So any HD-DVD victory can't happen in genuineness for several years in the likely case. All in all, any sort of HD-DVD victory will be a long, brutal, ugly war of attrition that leaves many losers, including millions of consumers.

PS: BTW, Blu-ray has already won in Japan. They have like 95%+ marketshare in that country. So a HD-DVD victory will mean an extremely messy situation in Japan where potentially the entire disk-based HD market must be destroyed first before HD-DVD can win.
 
C

Crayon Shinchan

Aquafina Fanboy
Mrbob said:
So basically unless you are a hardcore videophile, 1080P24 is worthless?
Click to expand...

The only thing that true 24FPS viewing does is eliminate juddering. Most prevalent in panning scenes; it's just a slight flickering that occurs in fast panning, because 60hz doesn't give smooth panning.

the 3D pop effect is more commonly associated with color and resolution accuracy, and less with 24fps.

When calibrated correctly, with a good display, an image will appear so lifelike, as to be looking out a window.
 
C

Crayon Shinchan

Aquafina Fanboy
HyperionX said:
Does the PS3 not exist in your world? Also, there are far more Blu-ray disk manufacturing plants than HD-DVD, as well as more BD player makers. All of these guys will lose. Also, Sony is never going to jump to HD-DVD unless 5-10 years have passed (see Sony and ATRAC, Betamax), and Fox is paranoid enough about pirating to not to jump for years too. So any HD-DVD victory can't happen in genuineness for several years in the likely case. All in all, any sort of HD-DVD victory will be a long, brutal ugly war of attrition that leaves many losers, including millions of consumers.

PS: BTW, Blu-ray has already won in Japan. They have like 95%+ marketshare in that country. So a HD-DVD victory will mean an extremely messy situation in Japan where potentially the entire disk-based HD market must be destroyed first before HD-DVD can win.
Click to expand...

The people you argue against don't care about any of that. The only thing they care about is the format they're supporting (or perhaps, the format that Sony isn't) is winning. Everyone else is couched in more realistic terms; most people desire a single format future, so the market can mature beyond this split userbase point.

Combo players may or may not be the way of the future; although that's far from ideal solution; it's unlike the issue of DVD+-R, where the issue was only you had to buy the right media for your burner, not that you were restricted in what you were able to use it for.
 
Brofist

Brofist

Member
This topic should be renamed Blu-ray/HDDVD official stalemate topic. Looks we will have to deal with 2 slightly gimped formats for the long term.
 
D

Days like these...

Have a Blessed Day
HyperionX said:
Does the PS3 not exist in your world? Also, there are far more Blu-ray disk manufacturing plants than HD-DVD, as well as more BD player makers. All of these guys will lose. Also, Sony is never going to jump to HD-DVD unless 5-10 years have passed (see Sony and ATRAC, Betamax), and Fox is paranoid enough about piracy to not to jump for years too. So any HD-DVD victory can't happen in genuineness for several years in the likely case. All in all, any sort of HD-DVD victory will be a long, brutal, ugly war of attrition that leaves many losers, including millions of consumers.

PS: BTW, Blu-ray has already won in Japan. They have like 95%+ marketshare in that country. So a HD-DVD victory will mean an extremely messy situation in Japan where potentially the entire disk-based HD market must be destroyed first before HD-DVD can win.
Click to expand...

Translation: I own a PS triple so blu ray should win!
 
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