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[Ignatz Mouse]

I look forward to the silence of those who jumped into this thread upon the Paramount announcement.

 

[Warm Machine]

IF this is correct, you have to wonder what Paramount is thinking about escape clauses. Then you have to wonder what the software numbers will do to this.

This sounds like a new version of BR FUD...Escape Clause!!!

 

[Petrarca]

oh snap! Its amazing how even when the PS3 has been the cheapest and best Blu-Ray player on the market, BD standalones still outsell the cheaper more “complete” HD-DVD standalone players.

According to a picture here: http://www.anandtech.com/tradeshows/showdoc.aspx?i=3084&p=10

Don’t know if it’s accurate or not but here’s the breakdown:

Blu-ray: 55%
HD DVD: 43%
Dual: 2%

OH NOES!!!! VanMardigan, ManaByte, The Main Event, Stooges mass suicides watch!!!!

 

[VanMardigan]

OH NOES!!!! VanMardigan, ManaByte, The Main Event, Stooges mass suicides watch!!!!

Pretty long for thread title, but I'm sure the powers that be would be more than happy to make it happen. :lol

Definitely shows momentum for the BR hardware side, if true. It'll take them a while at that rate to take the SI standalone lead, if ever, though. I think that momentum will be short-lvied. I expect Toshiba standalones to sell really well into the holiday season.

 

[Kolgar]

Well... you had a flickering glimmer of hope for a moment.

Why must you try and provoke others? I really find your posting style both condescending and ass-holey.

P.S. Out of the two of us, I'm the only one who owns players and buys discs for both formats, so perhaps you ought to go take your insecurity and childish behavior someplace else.

P.P.S. Goodbye, Mr. Crayon. Onto my ignore list you go!

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

This sounds like a new version of BR FUD...Escape Clause!!!

All stems from teh number of caveats Paramount people dropped when this was first announced. Stuff like Spielberg films not being included, and film of a certain revenue level being exempt.

Not that they've shown any signs of doing anything but be HD-DVD only, but I would not be surprised, if this trend continues, too see a change before those 18 months are up.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

You know, Crayon's an asshole, but I stopped caring given the post-Paramount asshole level here has risen to a point where Crayon's just background noise.

 

[Christoff Yurievich]

Why must you try and provoke others? I really find your posting style both condescending and ass-holey.

P.S. Out of the two of us, I'm the only one who owns players and buys discs for both formats, so perhaps you ought to go take your insecurity and childish behavior someplace else.

P.P.S. Goodbye, Mr. Crayon. Onto my ignore list you go!

no you're not. I bought a HD-A20, the Matrix trilogy, V for Vendetta, and Batman Begins a little while ago. I even made a post about it and the fact that I don't have a 500 foot Ethernet cable to do updates with. This is in addition to the PS3 and 15 movies I already had.

 

[Suikoguy]

Pretty long for thread title, but I'm sure the powers that be would be more than happy to make it happen. :lol

Definitely shows momentum for the BR hardware side, if true. It'll take them a while at that rate to take the SI standalone lead, if ever, though. I think that momentum will be short-lvied. I expect Toshiba standalones to sell really well into the holiday season.

Let me get this straight, when Blu-Ray players, excluding PS3 sales, beat HD-DVD standalones, it will "take them a while" to catch up? :lol

Does toshiba have you that brainwashed that the PS3 does not matter?
The only thing Toshiba had going for it was awesome player sales, mostly thanks to dropping the players to no profit margin. But, if Blu-Ray standalones, at near double the price outsell them...

The spin is amazing, i'm sure Toshiba is glad to have you on the front lines :lol

 

[KZObsessed]

Pretty long for thread title, but I'm sure the powers that be would be more than happy to make it happen. :lol

Definitely shows momentum for the BR hardware side, if true. It'll take them a while at that rate to take the SI standalone lead, if ever, though. I think that momentum will be short-lvied. I expect Toshiba standalones to sell really well into the holiday season.

Plz correct me if im wrong but I thought that graph was the SI standalone figures? No? Is it just weekly sales?

It looks like SI to me...

 

[VanMardigan]

Let me get this straight, when Blu-Ray players, excluding PS3 sales, beat HD-DVD standalones, it will "take them a while" to catch up? :lol

I'm pretty sure you didn't understand what you quoted, otherwise you wouldn't have typed up such an inane response. In discussing standalones (you do know that we were discussing standalones, do you not?) I do not feel that Blu Ray can catch up to the SI lead that Toshiba has enjoyed here in the states. While it's difficult to gauge without hard numbers rather than percentages, I'm pretty sure that, even with the recent trend mentioned by Sony, it would take them a while to surpass Toshiba's SI lead.

 

[krypt0nian]

This sounds like a new version of BR FUD...Escape Clause!!!

I was just thinking what publishers that have invested time/money/risk into this are going to think. Feel free to add whatever battlelines spin you'd like.

 

[Petrarca]

Let me get this straight, when Blu-Ray players, excluding PS3 sales, beat HD-DVD standalones, it will "take them a while" to catch up? :lol

Does toshiba have you that brainwashed that the PS3 does not matter?
The only thing Toshiba had going for it was awesome player sales, mostly thanks to dropping the players to no profit margin. But, if Blu-Ray standalones, at near double the price outsell them...

The spin is amazing, i'm sure Toshiba is glad to have you on the front lines :lol

Toshiba PR:

- When the argument is about total players sold, PS3 is not included
- When the argument is about movies attached-rate, PS3 is included

 

[VanMardigan]

Plz correct me if im wrong but I thought that graph was the SI standalone figures? No? Is it just weekly sales?

It looks like SI to me...

It's weekly sales, you can see the dates along the bottom and the weekly fluctuations on the graph. If it was SI, you wouldn't see the wild dips in percentages. If you've ever seen the SI software graphs, you'll know what I mean, there is no overtaking from week to week.

Either way, that won't stop folks like suiko to misinterpret and then bash me about it without retribution.

 

[thaivo]

Doesn't surprise me. AV retailers seem to have turned the corner into pushing Blu-Ray as the inevitable standard. My brother just started working at an enthusiast chain called "Tweeter". They carry both formats, but employees are instructed to recommend Blu-Ray.

And they don't carry PS3.

It makes sense to me that they would push the BD players. I read somewhere that the profit margin for a BD player is around $150-200, where as it is only around $50 for the HD-A2. Obviously the higher end Toshibas would garner more profit, but the A2 is the one that is selling the best most everywhere.

It would definitely be a blow to HD if BD stand-alones were outselling HD ones. Although there is the matter of lower second gen player shipments due to the the upcoming release of third gen players. Some people may even be waiting for the third gen players, especially now since they come with two very very good HD movies (i.e., 300, and the Bourne Identity).

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Given the pathetic absolute sales numbers so far for dedicated units, I don't think it will take all that long at all for the SI numbers to catch up. Remember, this is a market of expanding volume, not a mature, stable market. And prices dropping mean more growth in sales.

Perhaps I should take you off ignore, Van, people keep quoting you (apparently in disbelief).

 

[djkimothy]

So many people on ignore in this thread. :lol

I only had 1, and he doesn't post here anymore.

 

[theBishop]

It makes sense to me that they would push the BD players. I read somewhere that the profit margin for a BD player is around $150-200, where as it is only around $50 for the HD-A2. Obviously the higher end Toshibas would garner more profit, but the A2 is the one that is selling the best most everywhere.

It would definitely be a blow to HD if BD stand-alones were outselling HD ones. Although there is the matter of lower second gen player shipments due to the the upcoming release of third gen players. Some people may even be waiting for the third gen players, especially now since they come with two very very good HD movies (i.e., 300, and the Bourne Identity).

I think its unrealistic to believe that someone would at the same time:

1) Know enough about the technology to specifically wait for the '3rd generation' players

2) Want to buy the bottom of the line (where the price difference is really perceptible) player

 

[KZObsessed]

It's weekly sales, you can see the dates along the bottom and the weekly fluctuations on the graph. If it was SI, you wouldn't see the wild dips in percentages. If you've ever seen the SI software graphs, you'll know what I mean, there is no overtaking from week to week.

Either way, that won't stop folks like suiko to misinterpret and then bash me about it without retribution.

ahh yes you're right its weekly sales. It kinda even says it in the article, doh!

"Blu-ray Disc set-top players within the last 12 weeks have begun out-selling HD DVD set-top players, according to recent NPD Group research"

Hopefully it'll continue, I doubt theres a big difference between the SI numbers. It's still amazing considering the PS3 and the price difference compared to HD-DVD players.

 

[Kolgar]

no you're not. I bought a HD-A20, the Matrix trilogy, V for Vendetta, and Batman Begins a little while ago. I even made a post about it and the fact that I don't have a 500 foot Ethernet cable to do updates with. This is in addition to the PS3 and 15 movies I already had.

That's cool, man. And good for you--format neutrality is the best route for people who love HD movies.

But I know I'm not the only one here who owns and enjoys both formats. I was calling out Crayon as he made a snide comment to me on the last page about Blu-ray's supposed surge in standalone sales... When in fact he is the one with all of his eggs in one basket.

 

[Forsete]

So what hope is left?

BD outselling HD-DVD in terms of software by a wide margin.
BD outselling HD-DVD in terms of hardware (PS3 excluded).

 

[captive]

Why rent 4 and buy 3 when 4 > 3???

Im buying them all but 1 > 3 > 4 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2

 

[thaivo]

I think its unrealistic to believe that someone would at the same time:

1) Know enough about the technology to specifically wait for the '3rd generation' players
2) Want to buy the bottom of the line (where the price difference is really perceptible) player

I'm not sure I totally follow you. Admittedly, those that are looking for the cheapest players are not always the most informed. However, it doesn't mean that people that are informed immediately ignore the most cost-effective solution.

Most HD DVD supporters actually believe that if people were more informed about the specs and current state of players (i.e., BD spec 1.0), they might be less inclined to purchase a BD player, and wait until next year, or whenever the new spec comes around. Which is likely equally true of the third gen HD players.

Regardless, I don't believe the scenario that I listed was the primary reason, just that it was a possibility.

 

[VanMardigan]

Hopefully it'll continue, I doubt theres a big difference between the SI numbers. It's still amazing considering the PS3 and the price difference compared to HD-DVD players.

The difference is supposed to be around 100-150k, no? I mean, that's not a huge deal in most cases, but considering the slow uptake of both formats, and the Ps3, plus the fact that the percentages (even in the recent upswing for Blu Ray) aren't that far apart, I just don't think they can match the SI numbers anytime soon. you can see from those same charts that, previous to the $499 unit, Toshiba had gathered as much as 80% of the market on a given week.

With the falling prices and the next gen players providing a spark (plus the addition of other manufacturers like Venturer, Onkyo, etc.), I don't expect that recent BD standalone uptick to really last.

 

[Petrarca]

So many people on ignore in this thread. :lol

I only had 1, and he doesn't post here anymore.

Why someone put other posters on ignore lists is beyond me.

As hardcore as I may look, I never take this thread seriously or personally for that matter. This thread is nothing more but a pass-time during work or in the evening, a few posters may have gotten on my nerves in the past, but that's always temporary. For most of the time, I take it lightly, even if I got mocked permanently due to some pro-HD-DVD mods decided to put my name on the title.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

There are still no serious hardware supporters other than Toshiba, and software sales are still very lopsided towards Blu-ray. Also, stand-alone sales for Blu-ray are also coming close to, if not exceeding, stand-alone sales of HD-DVD players. Those alone make it hard to believe that HD-DVD is going to win, but there's plenty more. Like the very existence of the PS3, or that Blu-ray still has majority studio support (in terms of total movie revenue), or that the PC makers have mostly all sided with Blu-ray or gone neutral, or that there are far more independent Blu-ray disk makers.

The structural advantages that Blu-ray has are huge, and the only conceivable way HD-DVD is going to win is via some colossal war of attrition where effectively no one wins. On the other hand, a Blu-ray victory would only mean a serious loss to Toshiba and the relatively few people who bought a HD-DVD player.

HyperionX vindicated. This post spurred a back-and-forth a few days ago about BD player sales increasing, to which the ultimate result was "we'll have to wait for the NPD data."

Well, now we know that those retailer reports weren't just anecdotal.

 

[captive]

You know, Crayon's an asshole, but I stopped caring given the post-Paramount asshole level here has risen to a point where Crayon's just background noise.

This man speaks the truth.
Even funnier somehow only myself and crayon are on Vans "ignore list" while the one who's named in the thread title arent somehow worthy of being on his ignore list.
Yes cause im at the same level as crayon....

 

[Mrbob]

oh snap! Its amazing how even when the PS3 has been the cheapest and best Blu-Ray player on the market, BD standalones still outsell the cheaper more “complete” HD-DVD standalone players.

According to a picture here: http://www.anandtech.com/tradeshows/showdoc.aspx?i=3084&p=10

Don’t know if it’s accurate or not but here’s the breakdown:

Blu-ray: 55%
HD DVD: 43%
Dual: 2%

Uh oh.

What does Toshiba have left to spin.

So anyway HD DVD is dead already. Just a matter of time to see if Blu Ray will go down with it or succeed. Hopefully Paramount and Universal get their heads on straight and realize there is a potential HD DISC market out there that could succeed, but won't until those two hop onboard.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Oh yeah, I forgot to add my traditional response to good sales data:


Go Blu!

 

[djkimothy]

HyperionX vindicated. This post spurred a back-and-forth a few days ago about BD player sales increasing, to which the ultimate result was "we'll have to wait for the NPD data."

Well, now we know that those retailer reports weren't just anecdotal.

Although my experience doesn't factor in the NPD numbers (unless they include Canadian data), my BestBuy/Future Shop that I go to pretty much "helps" those numbers.

The Futureshop near me has 2 Blu-ray players setup at their featured sections. With a 50" screen and playing a Planet Earth disc. They have no HDDVD player set up. or if they do, it's tucked away in some corner that no one goes to.

Same with the BestBuy, which is right next door, except their HDDVD demo kiosk consists of a 37" Toshiba screen showing a photo slideshow... Blu-ray set ups, everywhere. Blu-ray players here in Ottawa seem to get more exposure than the alternative.

There are people who buy HDDVD discs. I've seen them! However my anecdotal experience has shown me that people are headed towards Blu-ray movies.

 

[Wulfer]

New update guys in the CEDIA thread...

Acer, Inc. Joins North American HD DVD Promotional Group



LOS ANGELES, Sept. 6 /PRNewswire/ -- With HD DVD drives already owning
a 70%(1) share of the notebook PC market worldwide, the North American HD
DVD Promotional Group today announced that Acer, the world's No. 4 PC
vendor, has officially joined the Group.
"We're pleased that Acer is now a member of the North American HD DVD
Promotional Group," said Ken Graffeo, co-president of the North American HD
DVD Promotional Group. "Acer is already producing a stellar line of HD
DVD-enabled notebook PCs for consumers today and we expect continued strong
demand for their products. Acer's support is one reason HD DVD continues to
be the worldwide leader in the PC market."
"Acer is pleased to join the North American HD DVD Promotional Group to
help bring the freshest technology to more consumers worldwide," said
Campbell Kan, Vice President, Mobile Computing Business Unit, Acer Inc. "We
are confident that our comprehensive HD DVD notebook offers will meet
consumers' demand and expectation for true high definition experience. I
look forward to further promoting the merit of HD DVD, in close
collaboration with the Group."
About HD DVD
HD DVD is the next generation, post-DVD standard for high capacity,
high definition optical discs, approved by the DVD Forum, which develops
and defines DVD formats. Its more than 220 strong membership brings
together leaders in movies and entertainment, computing, consumer
electronics and software. HD DVD is fast becoming the primary visual medium
for the age of high-definition TV. The North American HD DVD Promotional
Group, Inc. is an organization established to promote the HD DVD format and
educate consumers in North America. For more information and a complete
listing of HD DVD launch titles please visit
http://www.TheLookAndSoundOfPerfect.com.
The names of actual companies and products mentioned herein may be the
trademarks of their respective owners.
(1) Techno Systems Research (TSR) Data

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/09-06-2007/0004657942&EDATE=

 

[djkimothy]

New update guys in the CEDIA thread...




http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/09-06-2007/0004657942&EDATE=

So they seem to go to the format neutral route.

 

[captive]

Although my experience doesn't factor in the NPD numbers (unless they include Canadian data), my BestBuy/Future Shop that I go to pretty much "helps" those numbers.

The Futureshop near me has 2 Blu-ray players setup at their featured sections. With a 50" screen and playing a Planet Earth disc. They have no HDDVD player set up. or if they do, it's tucked away in some corner that no one goes to.

Same with the BestBuy, which is right next door, except their HDDVD demo kiosk consists of a 37" Toshiba screen showing a photo slideshow... Blu-ray set ups, everywhere. Blu-ray players here in Ottawa seem to get more exposure than the alternative.

There are people who buy HDDVD discs. I've seen them! However my anecdotal experience has shown me that people are headed towards Blu-ray movies.

My best buy puts blu-ray new releases out on the table in the middle of the store with all the DVD new releases, right behind that they have the floating kiosk of blu-ray movies in addition to the shelf space in the actual dvd section.

 

[theBishop]

My best buy puts blu-ray new releases out on the table in the middle of the store with all the DVD new releases, right behind that they have the floating kiosk of blu-ray movies in addition to the shelf space in the actual dvd section.

Both of the BB's in my area have 2 big blu-ray displays in the front of their TV area.

 

[djkimothy]

My best buy puts blu-ray new releases out on the table in the middle of the store with all the DVD new releases, right behind that they have the floating kiosk of blu-ray movies in addition to the shelf space in the actual dvd section.

Yah, same with mine. It's like the first thing I see when new releases come out. However they do place major HDDVD releases out. Like Heroes right now is on their new release shelves. But for a while in May, high def shelf space was allocated to Apocolypto and the two Pirates movies. They sold well, as did 300.

 

[captive]

Yah, same with mine. It's like the first thing I see when new releases come out. However they do place major HDDVD releases out. Like Heroes right now is on their new release shelves. But for a while in May, high def shelf space was allocated to Apocolypto and the two Pirates movies. They sold well, as did 300.

My BB had heroes but it was tucked away in the HD DVD section, they didnt put any copies out with the new releases. But they did have a TON of copies of it.
They did have Niptuck on blu-ray in the new releases table though.

Some may think this is "blu-ray bragging" or some shit, but i just find it interesting. I have been to several best buys in Houston and they all have blu-ray/hd dvd configured differently.

 

[Laurent]

Toshiba PR:

- When the argument is about total players sold, PS3 is not included
- When the argument is about movies attached-rate, PS3 is included

Yeah I think I read this somewhere...

 

[VanMardigan]

So they seem to go to the format neutral route.

You stick close to me, and stay ahead of the pack.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Nice thread title change.

BTW, what difference does installed base standalone sales mean if software is still Blu? Even if BluRay hasn't taken over HD-DVD SI, it's clear that with the current installed base, more BluRay discs are being sold.

This just means that the Blue Pac-Man's going to chomp down even harder.

 

[bishoptl]

even if I got mocked permanently due to some pro-HD-DVD mods decided to put my name on the title.

WTF - are we pro-Blu or pro-HDDVD? You and Van huddle up to make up your minds and let me know.

 

[Oni Jazar]

Uh oh.

What does Toshiba have left to spin.

So anyway HD DVD is dead already. Just a matter of time to see if Blu Ray will go down with it or succeed. Hopefully Paramount and Universal get their heads on straight and realize there is a potential HD DISC market out there that could succeed, but won't until those two hop onboard.

This is what makes the Paramount decision so frustrating. We could have had an official end to the format war by CES 08. There was no way HD DVD could have countered with only Unversal exclusive. Now it is going to limp on for another year at least.

 

[VanMardigan]

I think putting petrarca on the thread title conclusively proved you guys are pro-HD DVD. No doubt.

edit: but then you removed him and put my n***a Robby E up there so now I'm not sure.

 

[Mrbob]

Ok adding Rob Enderle to the title was a nice subtle touch! :lol

 

[Frankfurter]

New update guys in the CEDIA thread...

LOS ANGELES, Sept. 6 /PRNewswire/ -- With HD DVD drives already owning
a 70%(1) share of the notebook PC market worldwide, the North American HD
DVD Promotional Group today announced that Acer, the world's No. 4 PC
vendor, has officially joined the Group.


http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/09-06-2007/0004657942&EDATE=

So who again talked about Blu Ray having a great advantage in the PC/notebook market?


Btw. who is Rob Enderle?

 

[Crayon Shinchan]

This man speaks the truth.
Even funnier somehow only myself and crayon are on Vans "ignore list" while the one who's named in the thread title arent somehow worthy of being on his ignore list.
Yes cause im at the same level as crayon....

Jeez. No solidarity from you guys. Always trying to scapegoat me and Pet.

Pet's a fine fellow. You guys take this shit too seriously.

 

[fortified_concept]

VanMardigan and Petrarca should decide if the mods are pro-HDDVD or pro-BluRay. I'm getting confused.

 

[Mrbob]

Btw. who is Rob Enderle?

http://www.itbusinessedge.com/blogs/rob/?p=145

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

I thought Petrarca was mocking Van in his post, bish.

Rob Enderle-- an "analyst" who is actually a paid "zero dollar marketing" expert (aka viral) that gets quoted a lot here since he's currently working for Toshiba and Microsoft (but apparently was working for Sony when this all started, since he claims to have called the format for for Blu early on, and he lists Sony among his past clients).

 

[VanMardigan]

So who again talked about Blu Ray having a great advantage in the PC/notebook market?


Btw. who is Rob Enderle?

That would be Mr. Bob who took the Sony IFA announcements at their face value

And about Mr. Enderle, check out the nice tag our pro-HD DVD admin graced me with.

 

[captive]

VanMardigan and Petrarca should decide if the mods are pro-HDDVD or pro-BluRay. I'm getting confused.

I say fuck it and ban em both, but thats just me.