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Hi-Def Media Lovefest: The war is over and we can all go home.

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"The spin on both sides" !!

C'mon, the last bit of spin form the BD side was a futile attempt at pretending that Paramount didn't matter. Pathetic, but a week old. Since the news that dedicated BD players have been outselling HD-DVD (recently, an occasionally in the past) there's been a huge amount of spin including trying to pretend that it was never a big argument pro-HD-DVD (when for a long time, it was about the only popular pro-HD-DVD argument going).

There aren't enough :lols in the world.

Anyway, I've been on waiting for my son to go to bed so I can watch a movie (in SD-- boo!)

He just went down.

Later, all.
 

VanMardigan

has calmed down a bit.
Onyx, I'm sorry I was such a damn jerk, but you have to admit, you did come at me pretty rough for someone who hadn't read the chart.

At the time we started the debate, I was convinced you had seen the chart, but then your arguments didn't add up, so when I tried to correct you, you hit me up with the obtuse comment. Which hurt. :(

And now I don't even get an apology?? :'(
 

djkimothy

Member
VanMardigan said:
I MAY be able to get actual hardware units. I'm still trying to confirm whether the chart is real, what the conversion for the chart needs to be, etc.

edit:
djkimothy, I care, I even commented on your pretty blue pac mans :D

Haha. I was just proud of the use of Grab's "screen selection" tool. Very convenient.

Oh, and the pac man looks like he has lock jaw.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
VanMardigan said:
I'm sorry I was such a damn jerk, but you have to admit, you did come at me pretty rough for someone who hadn't read the chart.

Of course I didn't read the chart ... it wasn't anywhere to be seen :p


At the time we started the debate, I was convinced you had seen the chart, but then your arguments didn't add up, so when I tried to correct you. you hit me up with the obtuse comment. Which hurt. :(

I can understand why you'd be 'wtf' if you thought everyone saw the chart. I just wish it didn't take 5 pages to get everything explained. The majority of us were completely in the dark ... and wondering wtf you were talking about.

And now I don't even get an apology?? :'(

Yes ... you do.

I was a jerk ... sorry.
 

VanMardigan

has calmed down a bit.
I didn't even realize the chart had been pulled until I went to link it from FF's post.

Anyway, I have come across a chart that mirrors the Sony Cedia chart, but with UNIT SALES instead of percentages. The catch? The unit sales are too low based on the x axis figures and what we know from Toshiba and Sony press releases. It seems to "generally" match up well if you add a "0" at the end.

Should I post it, or should I wait for confirmation first to see if the chart is accurate? I don't want to be accused of posting FUD........again. For the most part, it seems accurate if you add the "0", and it can really shed light on what Toshiba's YTD lead actually is.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
Now that all of this has been settled ...


... I'm wondering one thing.



Who in the hell has been spreading the FUD to make us all believe HD DVD has been trouncing BD in standalone sales up until last month?
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
VanMardigan said:
I didn't even realize the chart had been pulled until I went to link it from FF's post.

Anyway, I have come across a chart that mirrors the Sony Cedia chart, but with UNIT SALES instead of percentages. The catch? The unit sales are too low based on the x axis figures. It seems to "generally" match up well if you add a "0" at the end.

Should I post it, or should I wait for confirmation first to see if the chart is accurate? I don't want to be accused of posting FUD........again. For the most part, it seems accurate if you add the "0", and it can really shed light on what Toshiba's YTD lead actually is.

Ehhh ... just put a note stating it needs to be confirmed.



OokieSpookie said:
Fucking A, do I smell a big group hug or what?


Come here guys!!!!!!
 

VanMardigan

has calmed down a bit.
Onix said:
Now that all of this has been settled ...


... I'm wondering one thing.



Who in the hell has been spreading the FUD to make us all believe HD DVD has been trouncing BD in standalone sales up until last month?

Nobody. Honestly, I think it's a function of misinterpreting what both Toshiba and Sony have been saying (although I'm sure they didn't bother to be as clear as possible).

Toshiba claimed YTD leadership AFTER the April price drop, and we can see just how dominant they were from the chart, with up to 80/20 lead in some weeks. Meanwhile, Sony's Cedia claim is also validated with the chart, although we can see that Toshiba's 3 month rampage means that they still have the overall YTD lead.

I think the problem may be that Toshiba also led in standalones last year, so they've always been viewed as the leader, and the April sales jolt gave them an even bigger perception of sales leadership, glossing over the fact that BD entered the year with standalone sales momentum, something NONE of us knew.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
VanMardigan said:
Nobody. Honestly, I think it's a function of misinterpreting what both Toshiba and Sony have been saying (although I'm sure they didn't bother to be as clear as possible).

Toshiba claimed YTD leadership AFTER the April price drop, and we can see just how dominant they were from the chart, with up to 80/20 lead in some weeks. Meanwhile, Sony's Cedia claim is also validated with the chart, although we can see that Toshiba's 3 month rampage means that they still have the overall YTD lead.

I think the problem may be that Toshiba also led in standalones last year, so they've always been viewed as the leader, and the April sales jolt gave them an even bigger perception of sales leadership, glossing over the fact that BD entered the year with standalone sales momentum, something NONE of us knew.


The weird thing is I recall actual numbers (well, I can't say if they were numbers or percentages).

The only thing I can think of is that they were always 'since inception' numbers; in that case, the beginning of the year would have only came off as a small upwards trend for BD ... but with HD DVD still kicking its ass.


WE'VE BEEN HAD!


It just seems surreal when you think about it. Long before BD SW sales since inception beat out HD DVD SW ... we realized that BD was starting to kick HD DVD's ass in sales ... and knew it was trending quite favorably.

Somehow the instances of it happening with standalone HW ... were completely missed to my knowledge. Its just .... weird.
 

methane47

Member
VanMardigan said:
So, onyx, did you click through to the chart still??

bdslidetm1.jpg


I'll be waiting patiently.

Wait a second...

When in the hell did VanMardigan become a blu proponent?
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
bdslidetm1.jpg



It's weird how nearly symmetrical the graph is. You'd almost think the same group of people must be buying them?


Spill the beans ... is everyone dual format? :lol
 

XMonkey

lacks enthusiasm.
I'm pretty pro-Blu and even I had the perception that we were getting trounced in standalone sales due to higher price, PS3, etc.

Interesting data.
 

VanMardigan

has calmed down a bit.
XMonkey said:
I'm pretty pro-Blu and even I had the perception that we were getting trounced in standalone sales due to higher price, PS3, etc.

Interesting data.


While it's probably closer than most people here thought, I'd just like to note that the data backs up what Toshiba has been saying all along, that they've outsold BD standalones both last year AND YTD.
 
Some pics of the CH DVD players in China (all based on the G3 Toshiba HD DVD players).

CH-DVD-LOGO.jpg


From TsingHua TuanFang (Eastern TsingHua)
QHTF.jpg


From Haier, China's biggest CE
Haier.jpg


Both bearing the HD DVD logo.
 

VanMardigan

has calmed down a bit.
That sort of mass manufacturing is going to help Toshiba bring down costs even quicker than they already have, or at least lessen their subsidy.
 

Chemo

Member
OokieSpookie said:
Refresh for the lazy if you would?
Sure.

Chemo said:
So this is the question I pose to HD DVD supporters right now. What exactly are you going to do when Blu-ray standalone player install base, LTD, is larger than HD DVD's? (If it makes you feel more comfortable, feel free to read that "when" as an "if.") What will be the argument, what will be the defense? Are you going to admit defeat? Or will there be more excuses? I am not asking this in a condescending manner, I'm am genuinely inquiring. Are you guys going to suck it up and go Blu-ray, or are you going to quit high def media altogether because the "evil empire" Sony got its way for once?

-- Edit --

I would like to reiterate that I have already gone on record to say that I am in this for a one-format future, and that I chose Blu-ray because I felt that it had the best chance. If HD DVD made strides and became the big contender, I would switch in a heartbeat. So there's no reason to turn my question around on me -- I've already answered it multiple times.
 

VanMardigan

has calmed down a bit.
So appropriate now:

hddvd1-(2).jpg


I wish my job was just to ride in that thing cross country and talk HD movies all day long while watching it on gorgeous screens in the AC interior.
 

djkimothy

Member
VanMardigan said:
So appropriate now:

[IG]http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadgethd.com/media/2007/09/hddvd1-(2).jpg[/IMG]

I wish my job was just to ride in that thing cross country and talk HD movies all day long while watching it on gorgeous screens in the AC interior.

Now that's better use of the 150 million dollars...
 
Chemo said:

They will look for the next savior like they have from the start.
Well Matrix didn't do it, 300 the 'superior' version didn't do it, Paramount jumping sides didn't do it, the mythical "Warner is going to switch now too lolbbqamirite kind of fell through, Heroes didn't do it, now it looks like the being cheaper isn't doing it, so it looks like they will jump in to the newest 'savior' in chinese off brand craftsmanship. :lol
 

StoOgE

First tragedy, then farce.
OokieSpookie said:
They will look for the next savior like they have from the start.
Well Matrix didn't do it, 300 the 'superior' version didn't do it, Paramount jumping sides didn't do it, the mythical "Warner is going to switch now too lolbbqamirite kind of fell through, Heroes didn't do it, now it looks like the being cheaper isn't doing it, so it looks like they will jump in to the newest 'savior' in chinese off brand craftsmanship. :lol


umm.. the wb going hddvd rumors came from camp blu (beatboy & bill hunt)
 

StoOgE

First tragedy, then farce.
Onix said:
bdslidetm1.jpg



It's weird how nearly symmetrical the graph is. You'd almost think the same group of people must be buying them?


Spill the beans ... is everyone dual format? :lol


onix, those are %... and there are essentially 2 fields.. so if one increases 5% the other must have an inverse reaction.

this also means that changes apear more drastic than they really are... and with no absolute numbers is useless.
 
Onix said:
bdslidetm1.jpg



It's weird how nearly symmetrical the graph is. You'd almost think the same group of people must be buying them?


Spill the beans ... is everyone dual format? :lol


It's a marketshare graph, so if it weren't for the dual format 2%, it would be exactly symmetrical.

And, oh yeah, add me to the list of people who thought that in dedicated units, HD-DVD was doing a Red Pac-Man on BluRay. Certainly that's been the prevailing beliew among just about everybody here and the few times I read AVSforum.
 
http://blog.ultimateavmag.com/cedia2007/90607alanbell/

Even if you have been living under a rock lately (and no, not The Rock Michael Bay), you're aware that Paramount and DreamWorks recently switched to exclusive HD DVD support. While much of the press focus on this move has centered on the alleged $150 million that changed hands, Paramount has gotten out front in explaining that there were cost and technology factors involved in this momentous decision.

Right or wrong, many people won't look past the money story. But Paramount's Chief Technology Officer Alan Bell (pictured above, with the author) was kind enough to sit down with me at CEDIA and explain some of the reasons he recommended that Paramount make this move.

First and foremost, Alan is not part of the business end of things at Paramount. So questions of subsidies and/or financial incentives regarding Paramount's Blu-ray participation and current pro-HD DVD stance are not ones he can answer. But Alan did tell me that as CTO, his opinion played a role in making the move and that supporting HD DVD was indeed his firm recommendation.

Regarding what went into that decision Alan reiterated some things that have been written elsewhere, including HD DVD's stable set of specifications, advanced interactivity, and the difficulty of authoring and replicating Blu-ray Discs.

Alan's position is that Paramount would undoubtedly like to get more involved in advanced interactivity (think Transformers), and that right now the limited capabilities and multiple hardware platforms on Blu-ray would make it difficult to offer these features on both formats and market them properly.

Alan believes that one of the things that makes HD DVD's web enabled interactivity unique is that it offers a transition between physical media and the download world. On top of that, the surface hasn't even been scratched as far as merchandising and other revenue streams that could result. While Blu-ray Discs will start offering networked interactivity late this year or early next, Alan feels the current situation is poor given that most of the third-gen standalone BD players don't support these features.

During our meeting, to illustrate Alan's point that the authoring for BD discs is far more complicated (and therefore expensive), Microsoft's Kevin Collins showed us a graphic purported to be the code required to author a chapter jump on an HDi-authored HD DVD disc and the Java code required to author the same operation on a Blu-ray Disc. The HDi code appeared to be several lines long, while the Java code filled almost an entire page. Time is money in the authoring world, as in so many other walks of life.

Among the things I asked Alan was whether at any point he had the idea that Blu-ray would offer interactivity features that were superior, which might provide a payoff for the increased difficulty. He said that while something could came up down the road, he is not currently aware of anything, beyond an additional layer of copy protection, which offers no benefit to consumers.

Alan also believes that HD DVD has much greater capability to ramp up to massive scale for HD releases. There are more replciation lines available for HD DVD, and because of its similarity to DVD bringing new lines up for HD DVD will be faster, cheaper and easier.

HD DVD is already achieving significantly higher yields in replication at much lower costs. Alan also explained that bringing a replication facility online for Blu-ray requires a massive up front expenditure in equipment, and once that's complete that line is Blu-ray Disc only. HD DVD replication requires something more along the lines of a retrofit, is cheaper by several orders of magnitude, and that same line can still replicate DVDs, offering greater utility.

When I pointed out that most of this was known over a year ago, when Paramount embarked on the dual-format platform, Alan's response was interesting. He said that knowing something on paper is much different than experiencing it firsthand. He described Paramount's year-long foray in dual format releases as offering invaluable experience which led to the decision to back HD DVD. He also felt that Blu-ray's 50GB capacity hasn't panned out to be the qualitative advantage it was supposed to be with the next-gen audio and video codecs.

Overall, Alan's message was that HD DVD represents the simplest and most cost effective way for Paramount to offer the best HD experience to consumers, and that HD DVD will in turn remain more cost effective for consumers, which will bring more people to adopt HD in general.
 

Xater

Member
He also felt that Blu-ray's 50GB capacity hasn't panned out to be the qualitative advantage it was supposed to be with the next-gen audio and video codecs.

Sure...

Where are the Paramount discs with HD audio?
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
Microsoft's Kevin Collins showed us a graphic purported to be the code required to author a chapter jump on an HDi-authored HD DVD disc and the Java code required to author the same operation on a Blu-ray Disc. The HDi code appeared to be several lines long, while the Java code filled almost an entire page. Time is money in the authoring world, as in so many other walks of life.

Is that supposed to prove how difficult it is to use java? Did he also show just how many programmers are actually skilled in HDi, versus how many already know how to code Java?
 

theBishop

Banned
mrklaw said:
Is that supposed to prove how difficult it is to use java? Did he also show just how many programmers are actually skilled in HDi, versus how many already know how to code Java?

But that would appear to give Blu-Ray the advantage. Why would he do that?

BTW: one page of Java is not that big a deal. There's quite a lot of "scaffolding" in Java because it is so object oriented.
 

Oni Jazar

Member
There was a good post at AVS that countered the HDi & Java implementation. While HDi may use a few lines to do what Java may need a class that had a page full of code to perform, actually using global functions and classes result in a much simpler code:

HDi

Code:
document.Menu.style.animateProperty("y","928px;738px",0.5);

BD-J

Code:
public static void openMenu(Image menu)
{
	for(int i=0, m=12; i<12; i+=1, m+=12)
	{
		bufferGraphics.clearRect(0,0,1830,190);
		bufferGraphics.drawImage(menu,0,200-m,1740,320-m,150,1830,1890,1950,null);
		Interface.getGraphics().drawImage(buffer,90,890,null);
		Toolkit.getDefaultToolkit().sync();
		wait();
	}

}

private static void waitAniFrame()
{
	try
	{
		Thread.sleep(63);
	}
	catch (InterruptedException e)
	{
	      //Error
	}
}
BD-J looks more daunting huh? Now here's the actual function call that you may need to use 100 times more:

HDi
Code:
document.Menu.style.animateProperty("y","928px;738px",0.5);

BD-J
Code:
openMenu(menu);

It's all about encapsulation and re-use. The more the language has to mature the more libraries available and the less coding will need to be done. There are already BD-J WYSIWYG solutions that require no programing.
 

captive

Joe Six-Pack: posting for the common man
Xater said:
Sure...

Where are the Paramount discs with HD audio?
i love self ownage.

Is that supposed to prove how difficult it is to use java? Did he also show just how many programmers are actually skilled in HDi, versus how many already know how to code Java?
What is HDi even based in? Something with visual studi.net?
 

LuCkymoON

Banned
Oni Jazar said:
There was a good post at AVS that countered the HDi & Java implementation. While HDi may use a few lines to do what Java may need a class that had a page full of code to perform, actually using global functions and classes result in a much simpler code:

HDi

Code:
document.Menu.style.animateProperty("y","928px;738px",0.5);

BD-J

Code:
public static void openMenu(Image menu)
{
	for(int i=0, m=12; i<12; i+=1, m+=12)
	{
		bufferGraphics.clearRect(0,0,1830,190);
		bufferGraphics.drawImage(menu,0,200-m,1740,320-m,150,1830,1890,1950,null);
		Interface.getGraphics().drawImage(buffer,90,890,null);
		Toolkit.getDefaultToolkit().sync();
		wait();
	}

}

private static void waitAniFrame()
{
	try
	{
		Thread.sleep(63);
	}
	catch (InterruptedException e)
	{
	      //Error
	}
}
BD-J looks more daunting huh? Now here's the actual function call that you may need to use 100 times more:

HDi
Code:
document.Menu.style.animateProperty("y","928px;738px",0.5);

BD-J
Code:
openMenu(menu);

It's all about encapsulation and re-use. The more the language has to mature the more libraries available and the less coding will need to be done. There are already BD-J WYSIWYG solutions that require no programing.
If it's more simple to use then why are they not using it?
 
You know, I am really getting sick and tired of HD DVD CEOs and so forth talking about cost effectiveness and the lower cost to consumer. YA FUCKING RIGHT!!!! Cost of HD DVD combo in 2006 - $39.99US. Cost of same disc in late 2007 - $39.99. Consumers win I guess.

I don't care what is being subsidized and what isn't. The bottom line is price. Do I care that HD DVD players and Blu-ray discs are being subsidized? Hell no because it doesn't affect me.
 

maynerd

Banned
Whoa what's this all about?

http://www.warnervideo.com/warner_bros_hi_definition/us/html/titles.html

new titles listed....

10,000 B.C.
The Adventures of Robinhood
Appleseed Ex Machina
The Assassination of Jesse James
August Rush
The Aviator
Batman Begins
Batman Anime
The Best of HD DVD: Family
The Best of HD DVD: Action
Bonnie and Clyde
Brave One
The Bucket List
Casablanca
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory
The Cincinnati Kid
Clash of the Titans
Complete Matrix Trilogy
Cool Hand Luke
Dark Knight
The Dead Pool
Dirty Harry
The Enforcer
Falling Down
The Feast of Love
Fool's Gold
Fred Claus
Friends: The Complete First Season
Get Smart
The Goonies
Grand Prix
The Green Mile
Harry Potter (All of them being sold seperate)
Heat
I Am Legend
In the Valley of Elah
The Invasion
Justice League: The Frontier
L.A. Confidential
Magnum Force Deluxe Ed
Matrix (All of them being sold seperate)
The Matrix Online Game Card
Men
Michael Clayton
Mutiny on the Bounty
Natural Born Killers
Nights in Rodanthe
No Reservations
Ocean's (All of them being sold seperate)
One Missed Call
Perfect Storm
Poltergeist
Poseidon
The Promise
Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves
Smallville: The Complete First Season
Speed Racer
Spring Breakdown
Sudden Impact
Superman Doomsday
Taking Lives
That's Entertainment
That's Entertainment 2
That's Entertainment 3
That's Entertainment Trilogy Giftset
Twister
The Ultimate Matrix Trilogy
V for Vendetta
The West Wing: The Complete Seventh Season
Whiteout
The Wizard of Oz
 

djkimothy

Member
maynerd said:
Whoa what's this all about?

http://www.warnervideo.com/warner_bros_hi_definition/us/html/titles.html

new titles listed....

10,000 B.C.
The Adventures of Robinhood
Appleseed Ex Machina
The Assassination of Jesse James
August Rush
The Aviator
Batman Begins
Batman Anime
The Best of HD DVD: Family
The Best of HD DVD: Action
Bonnie and Clyde
Brave One
The Bucket List
Casablanca
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory
The Cincinnati Kid
Clash of the Titans
Complete Matrix Trilogy
Cool Hand Luke
Dark Knight
The Dead Pool
Dirty Harry
The Enforcer
Falling Down
The Feast of Love
Fool's Gold
Fred Claus
Friends: The Complete First Season
Get Smart
The Goonies
Grand Prix
The Green Mile
Harry Potter (All of them being sold seperate)
Heat
I Am Legend
In the Valley of Elah
The Invasion
Justice League: The Frontier
L.A. Confidential
Magnum Force Deluxe Ed
Matrix (All of them being sold seperate)
The Matrix Online Game Card
Men
Michael Clayton
Mutiny on the Bounty
Natural Born Killers
Nights in Rodanthe
No Reservations
Ocean's (All of them being sold seperate)
One Missed Call
Perfect Storm
Poltergeist
Poseidon
The Promise
Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves
Smallville: The Complete First Season
Speed Racer
Spring Breakdown
Sudden Impact
Superman Doomsday
Taking Lives
That's Entertainment
That's Entertainment 2
That's Entertainment 3
That's Entertainment Trilogy Giftset
Twister
The Ultimate Matrix Trilogy
V for Vendetta
The West Wing: The Complete Seventh Season
Whiteout
The Wizard of Oz

Warner has still yet to release a bunch of those titles. I assume they'll make a big splash once they come out. So I wouldn't be surprised to see them delayed even further in 08.
 
I would think that fact that Java programmers are in abundance (and even still, that's simple code) would make all the difference.

Also one thing that Paramount exec glossed over:

Dual Layer HD-DVD (30 GB) costs more than single layer BluRay (25 GB)

So if that extra space isn't necessary, BluRay is cheaper. Unless you can fit everything in 15GB.
 

neojubei

Will drop pants for Sony.
I guess I won't be owning transformers until it is on blu-ray. oh well.

Does anyone know if Babylon 5 will get any hd treatmen?
 
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