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[Ignatz Mouse]

I might actually catch back up to Van and be #1 poster again, at this rate.

 

[CajoleJuice]

I'm with plagerize as well.

 

[Snah]

in your instance? less than 500 and more than 0.

if someone already owns an xbox 360... it's disingenuous to say it will only cost them $179 to buy the add on? obviously not.

price of entry is how much you have to spend to get something. you don't include things you already have in that. that'd be like including the price of your house when working out how much it would cost you to get a fireplace.

JCBossman is an idiot. you don't need to resort to equally crazy things to make that apparent... just let him write his crazy stuff and it'll shine through just as clearly as your stuff shines through.

To buy the add on? No. To play HD-DVD movies? Yes.

Nothing I'm saying here is 'crazy'. All I'm going to say on the matter is that if you own an Xbox 360 already, then the added cost likely won't be much of an issue. I'm not disagreeing with you on that at all. But if someone asked you how much it cost for you to play HD-DVD movies, merely saying that it cost $179 would be disingenuous.

Obviously, this is rendered moot by the recent pricing situation. :lol But, as applied to JC, my point still stands: I still don't understand his complaint regarding price or the fact that the PS3 is a game player.

 

[captive]

Heres my poll.
A)
B)
C)
D) STFU already

I choose D.


Spiderman 3 and the box set came out this week and theres not a single post with any picture in this thread, wtf is that shit?

 

[Snah]

Heres my poll.
A)
B)
C)
D) STFU already

I choose D.


Spiderman 3 and the box set came out this week and theres not a single post with any picture in this thread, wtf is that shit?

As far as I know, that box set releases tomorrow...

 

[plagiarize]

I don't know... I think it's perfectly fair to include the cost of each and every thing you need to get an HD disc up and running.

In the 360s case, getting HD-DVD up and running certainly does include the cost of the 360 unit... no way around that.

not when you're talking on a personal level like JC was.

if we're doing a balanced comparison to see which is generally more affordable, i don't have any problems with that, but if you want to argue with someone in specific situation that way, it doesn't make any sense.

JC was explaining why HE wasn't neutral. he wasn't saying 'everyone should buy the HD-DVD add on for the Xbox 360 because it's cheaper than a PS3'. snah reacted like he was.

 

[BocoDragon]

To buy the add on? No. To play HD-DVD movies? Yes.

Nothing I'm saying here is 'crazy'. All I'm going to say on the matter is that if you own an Xbox 360 already, then the added cost likely won't be much of an issue. I'm not disagreeing with you on that at all. But if someone asked you how much it cost for you to play HD-DVD movies, merely saying that it cost $179 would be disingenuous.

Obviously, this is rendered moot by the recent pricing situation. :lol But, as applied to JC, my point still stands: I still don't understand his complaint regarding price.

You're making sense to me.. I don't see why anyone is arguing you...

 

[dallow_bg]

As far as I know, that box set releases tomorrow...

It's been on shelves since Tuesday....

You're right captive, it's ridiculous.

 

[Snah]

It's been on shelves since Tuesday....

really? i did not know that. there's no pics up on AVS or anywhere?

 

[BocoDragon]

not when you're talking on a personal level like JC was.

if we're doing a balanced comparison to see which is generally more affordable, i don't have any problems with that, but if you want to argue with someone in specific situation that way, it doesn't make any sense.

JC was explaining why HE wasn't neutral. he wasn't saying 'everyone should buy the HD-DVD add on for the Xbox 360 because it's cheaper than a PS3'. snah reacted like he was.

okay I see your point.

 

[dallow_bg]

really? i did not know that. there's no pics up on AVS or anywhere?

He meant in this thread since it's filled with garbage for the last 6 pages.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

yeah. i know you guys often wonder why i bother.

i wonder that myself sometimes.

$400 PS3 is obviously going to help Blu-Ray sales. sub $200 player is going to help HD-DVD sales too though.

i think the test is what state HD-DVD is in when the price difference becomes irrelevant, which it obviously isn't at the moment. right now, HD-DVD would be on its way out against an equally priced Blu-Ray player. they need to get at least Warner or one of the Blu-Ray exclusive studios to make a move before that happens in order to keep competing once both are 'affordable'.

This is why I think Blu would win ever since March or April (whenever I became certain)-- that despite cheaper hardware, HD-DVD doesn't sell nearly as much software (Transformers week being the exception). Having been around since the first DVD days, I knew the hardware would fall dramatically fast and that player-price would not be an issue for long.

The fact that player price *is* still an issue is a testament to Toshiba's willingness to win this fight. I certainly did not expect to see a $100 player this year. I figures $150 Black Friday sales as best, and $250 BluRay sales the same time.

So it certainly has gotten less certain, and more interesting. But I still see Blu with it's superior film catalog and better marketing to the likely consumers winning out. I don't see new HD-TV owners being as price-fixated as the average Joe Sixpack. Will it matter? Yes. Will it matter enough to make HD-DVD catch up significantly? I don't think so.

 

[AdmiralViscen]

how dare he slight the PS3's game playing abilities... BUT HE ABSOLUTELY PAID $600 JUST TO BE ABLE TO PLAY HD-DVDs. what bullshit.

i can't speak for him, but i bought an xbox 360 when it first came out. i had no idea that an HD-DVD add on was ever going to come out. i paid $400 to be able to play games, and then i later paid $200 to be able to play HD-DVDs. if he bought his 360 and the drive at the same time just to play HD-DVDs you'd have a fair point.

but you don't.

he doesn't either, but that doesn't make you any less wrong than him.

Good post.

1. Thanks for introducing an irrelevant tangent. I suggest you discuss that in a separate thread if you want to have your level of scientific understanding challenged.

2. It's not two faced logic: The price of entry for him -- and you -- was $600. Again, the fact that you also happened to own a 360 is irrelevant. Again; he's complaining about the price of a $400 PS3 when he probably paid close to $600 for a similar item of functionality. I also purchased a 360 at launch and did not buy an HD-DVD player because I realized I was getting a PS3 and felt that Blu-Ray was going to win the format war.

I just find his 'qualms' to be completely unfounded. You disagree, and that's fine.

Which is a variable you're adding to the situation.

If, as an existing 360 owner, he doesn't see the value of a $400 PS3 purchase (or the $200 difference between it and an HD-DVD add on), then he can choose HD-DVD without being illogical. If he reasons that the 5% of PS3 games that aren't already on 360 isn't worth $200, then he will buy the HD-DVD add on.

Trying to remove all specifics of the situation by just adding up MSRPs is clouding the issue.

BTW I went for your solution, rather than his. But for different reasons than you.

Spoiler

Not very relevent, but if anyone is curious:

$130 needed to replace faulty PS2
$150-200 needed for upscaling DVD player
$100 value of 5 free Blu Rays (all of which I like and don't own as DVDs)
-bonus value of upscaled PS2 games and wireless controller
-bonus access to PS3 exclusives other than Ratchet and Sigma that I could conceivably want about some day
-bonus Blu Ray player, why not?

Was worth $380 cost of entry for PS3, for me.

 

[plagiarize]

This is why I think Blu would win ever since March or April (whenever I became certain)-- that despite cheaper hardware, HD-DVD doesn't sell nearly as much software (Transformers week being the exception). Having been around since the first DVD days, I knew the hardware would fall dramatically fast and that player-price would not be an issue for long.

The fact that player price *is* still an issue is a testament to Toshiba's willingness to win this fight. I certainly did not expect to see a $100 player this year. I figures $150 Black Friday sales as best, and $250 BluRay sales the same time.

So it certainly has gotten less certain, and more interesting. But I still see Blu with it's superior film catalog and better marketing to the likely consumers winning out. I don't see new HD-TV owners being as price-fixated as the average Joe Sixpack. Will it matter? Yes. Will it matter enough to make HD-DVD catch up significantly? I don't think so.

neither do i. i just don't think it'll be sorted out any time soon. people were calling it over six months ago... and we've seen that it was way too early to call. i just believe that the $200 i spent was worth it to be able to watch certain HD films now rather than later, and to not have to care about the war one way or another.

it's great to see both sides fighting so hard though. i know a lot of people just want one format, but HDM wouldn't be nearly this affordable at this point without the war imho.

 

[The Elite]

Heres my poll.
A)
B)
C)
D) STFU already

I choose D.


Spiderman 3 and the box set came out this week and theres not a single post with any picture in this thread, wtf is that shit?

I was going to do it but there didn't seem to be any real hype in this thread.

 

[Snah]

neither do i. i just don't think it'll be sorted out any time soon. people were calling it over six months ago... and we've seen that it was way too early to call. i just believe that the $200 i spent was worth it to be able to watch certain HD films now rather than later, and to not have to care about the war one way or another.

it's great to see both sides fighting so hard though. i know a lot of people just want one format, but HDM wouldn't be nearly this affordable at this point without the war imho.

I honestly think this is HD-DVD's last stand this holiday season, and their extremely aggressive pricing suggests that.

Honestly, what else can HD-DVD do if their $99 - $199 HD-DVD players this Christmas have no effect whatsoever in the format wars this holiday? What if the drop in PS3 price, coupled with a strong Blu-Ray library, makes the sales issue a wash and it's still 2:1?

We also forget markets like Europe and Japan, which I believe is a lot more slanted than the American market.

It'll be interesting to see the results of this holiday season, but even more interesting to see what will actually happen to HD-DVD and Warner starting early next year.

 

[mrklaw]

these $100 dollar players could surely backfire? If they sell to those movie fans who are interested in HD but so far haven't bought at $300 or even $200, then maybe thats ok.

But $100 will attract casual buyers. Are they really going to buy lots of HDDVDs which are hugely more expensive than regular DVDs right now? Toshiba could end up selling thousands more players but having little impact on software sales, and actually seeing their attach rate drop.

Its fun to watch though, if still hugely frustrating.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

these $100 dollar players could surely backfire? If they sell to those movie fans who are interested in HD but so far haven't bought at $300 or even $200, then maybe thats ok.

But $100 will attract casual buyers. Are they really going to buy lots of HDDVDs which are hugely more expensive than regular DVDs right now? Toshiba could end up selling thousands more players but having little impact on software sales, and actually seeing their attach rate drop.

Its fun to watch though, if still hugely frustrating.

Attach rate doesn't mean shit. Absolute software sales do. Fair point about buyers of $100 players (especially if they're picking up their second HD-DVD, for another room or to replace the 360 add-on) not necessaryliy driving a lot of software, though.

 

[gkryhewy]

these $100 dollar players could surely backfire? If they sell to those movie fans who are interested in HD but so far haven't bought at $300 or even $200, then maybe thats ok.

I think the volume of $100 players available or sold will be very small, as in a doorbuster of sorts. $200 is the price point.

 

[Chemo]

these $100 dollar players could surely backfire? If they sell to those movie fans who are interested in HD but so far haven't bought at $300 or even $200, then maybe thats ok.

But $100 will attract casual buyers. Are they really going to buy lots of HDDVDs which are hugely more expensive than regular DVDs right now? Toshiba could end up selling thousands more players but having little impact on software sales, and actually seeing their attach rate drop.

Its fun to watch though, if still hugely frustrating.

I have always seen these huge deals on cheap players with tons of free software as being a one-time impulse buy for a lot of people. I'm sure some of them will continue to buy content, but they were interested because of the deal that was too good to be true, not because it was their turn to jump into a high def format. I don't think it's inaccurate to assume that a lot of the purchasers are bargain hunters rather than high volume software buyers. And in this instance, the higher price of entry for Blu-ray actually doesn't harm the software buyer base: if someone is willing to spend more money to get something, they're likely willing to spend more money to support it.

 

[Kintaro]

Just came back from my local Wal-Mart. They didn't have cheapo HD-DVD players, but they did have a $299 HD-DVD player and a $399 Sony Blu Ray player. They also had a set up for HD movies. It was bout 70/30 in favor of BR in terms of the amount of different title available. Good prices too. Spiderman Collection was $64.95. =O

 

[duk]

Walmart bought 2million A2s from Toshiba at $50 a pop. They will all sell out this year for sure.

 

[OokieSpookie]

I have always seen these huge deals on cheap players with tons of free software as being a one-time impulse buy for a lot of people. I'm sure some of them will continue to buy content, but they were interested because of the deal that was too good to be true, not because it was their turn to jump into a high def format. I don't think it's inaccurate to assume that a lot of the purchasers are bargain hunters rather than high volume software buyers. And in this instance, the higher price of entry for Blu-ray actually doesn't harm the software buyer base: if someone is willing to spend more money to get something, they're likely willing to spend more money to support it.

I have similar thoughts.
In my personal opinion ( let me say that again...my personal opinion), this is a kind of questionable way to pad player sales numbers.
The reason I say that is because I foresee these selling out obviously as they have already at Best Buy but I think the average walmart shopper is being a little mislead.
They will get the player for 99 or whatever and perhaps even pick up a few 14.99 movies but a month from now when they see how much movies really are and that they can not go to Blockbuster and rent them it will just sit there.
Toshiba doesn't care though because it will have it's player sales figures and they will most definitely throw a few press releases out to make sure everyone knows.
That is not to say that people who have been wanting to get into high def media will not benefit also but I believe the ratio of beneficial sales will be something like 30/70

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Walmart bought 2million A2s from Toshiba at $50 a pop. They will all sell out this year for sure.

What? I'm sure they would, but where'd you get the price and the amount?

 

[Christoff Yurievich]

I got to check out Cars today and wow, it's just awesome. I can't believe how good it looks. Can't wait to pick up the three Pixar discs on Tuesday, especially if they all look that good.

also picked up the Spider-Man trilogy today but haven't had a chance to look at the movies yet - too much homework.

 

[nubbe]

2 Million? Bluray is doomed

 

[Snah]

I got to check out Cars today and wow, it's just awesome. I can't believe how good it looks. Can't wait to pick up the three Pixar discs on Tuesday, especially if they all look that good.

also picked up the Spider-Man trilogy today but haven't had a chance to look at the movies yet - too much homework.

what three pixar movies are releasing next week?

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Unless it's a made-up number.

 

[captive]

what three pixar movies are releasing next week?

Cars, Ratatouille, and the Pixar shorts collection.

 

[Christoff Yurievich]

Unless it's a made-up number.

what I was leaning towards. I mean, you'd think that he hadn't even seen the past 4-5 pages. sources are essential.

what three pixar movies are releasing next week?

what he said. I couldn't spell Ratatouille off-hand so just said "three Pixar discs".

 

[SUPREME1]

I'm kinda talking my friend into getting the HD DVD add-on..

I feel kind of weird doing it though. Because he sits there and listens to my pitch and just looks at me with no real interest.

He agrees that the deal is very good, and seems interested in the idea of HD.. But it just seems like he's not going to jump in on the whole HD thing for a while.

The guy cleared $180K last year, so money isn't an issue. I guess he doesn't have the time to even bother. He's a bus ydude with a family.


He probably thinks his kids will wreck it.. :lol

 

[Snah]

2 Million? Bluray is doomed

honestly that figure sounds like bullshit.

 

[Snah]

Hmm...I need an animated movie to add to my blu-ray collection.

Is ratatoulie (can't spell) a good blind purchase?

 

[RaidenZR]

Hmm...I need an animated movie to add to my blu-ray collection.

Is ratatoulie (can't spell) a good blind purchase?

Uh, hell yes.

 

[Forsete]

Yeah, the big 3 from Pixar is a must for any movie fan.

If you are looking for a nice CG movie, Open Season is a nice buy.

 

[teepo]

the figure is bullshit. a number that big and significant wouldn't be overlooked in a press release.

 

[Christoff Yurievich]

Monster House is pretty good as well.

 

[Maxwell House]

Wow, that is an unbelievable price. I know this is a one day sale, but I believe this means the regular price of the Toshiba's will be $169.99 or lower most of Christmas, and probably $99 again the weekend of Thanksgiving.

When the Chinese ones come out later in November, will they be $99 flatout all the time? I believe they very well might be.

Who the hell thought HD-DVD players would get to $99 so damn fast?

And how will BD respond? The cheapest BD player is still $399.99 and AFAIK, there aren't even any rumors of players being below that price this Holiday season.

BTW, I am buying 3 players tomorrow morning. It is an awesome Christmas present..an HD-DVD Player + 5 HD-DVD movies. It makes for a hell of a nice package to wrap for someone.

 

[RoShamBo]

if you have a 26 inch 720p lcd and sit 4-6 feet away from it is there any visual difference between the hddvd a2 player and a regular hdmi upconverting dvd player?

 

[Maxwell House]

Whoa. I was expecting a passing mention, but it really is an entire Wal Mart ad exclusively for HD DVD. The plain language, the Toshiba mention. I'm pretty impressed that HD DVD has put itself in that position.

I remember all the laughter at the thought of Wal-Mart having a $200 chinese player this holiday season. Now they have a Toshiba and pimping the heck out of it. I guess this takes care of the whining I was doing a few pages back about the HD DVD retail presence.

Yep, the ad even specifically pointed out it was a Toshiba, to let people know it isn't some cheap no name brand.

 

[chubigans]

Yall gather round' for another Digital Bits commentary...

How in the world does Toshiba think it's ever going to make any money from the HD-DVD format? I mean, seriously.

You may have heard by now that Toshiba has made pre-Black Friday arrangements with Wal-Mart to effectively dump its HD-A2 HD-DVD player starting this Friday (this weekend only) for just $98.87. You may also have heard that Best Buy has followed suit. Supplies are limited, of course, and the offer is apparently not valid in some parts of the country that have state anti-dumping laws.

Wikipedia defines dumping as "the act of a manufacturer in one country exporting a product to another country at a price which is either below the price it charges in its home market or is below its costs of production." Toshiba's move isn't really anti-competitive, because there are no U.S. manufacturers making HD-DVD players. But it's that "below its costs of production" part that applies in this case. The HD-A2 arrived in the States with an original MSRP of $499.99. Now, Toshiba is letting it go for just $99. There's no way the player cost less than $100 to manufacturer. Just. No. Way.

You might wonder: How can Toshiba possibly have enough HD-A2s left to sell at just $99 at large, nationwide retailers? Simple. It's because they didn't sell originally, so plenty of stores still have them sitting on shelves, gathering dust. Toshiba is eager to clear them all out at this point, and Wal-Mart and Best Buy are happy to help.

Clearly, the HD-DVD camp understands that low price is really the only card they have left to play in this format war. Porn hasn't won the war for them as predicted, nor have online bells and whistles, or combo discs/players. The obvious question would be: Why in the world would any other hardware manufacturer want to join Toshiba's foolhardy strategy of driving player prices down to next to nothing? It's no accident that not a single other major manufacturer has released a stand-alone HD-DVD player (and no, the Venturer doesn't count). Given how dramatically Toshiba has slashed prices on HD-DVD players over the last year, you have to wonder how long they can keep losing money.

Forget for a moment that the HD-A2 isn't capable of delivering full 1080p video - that doesn't matter. Why? Because anyone who is so price sensitive that they wait until a high-def player price hits $99 to buy one isn't likely to have an HDTV set yet. Being super bargain shoppers, they aren't likely to want to pay $30 for an HD-DVD movie either. I'd bet many of the people who jump on this sale will either be using them primarily as upconverting DVD players, or they're already diehard HD-DVD supporters and are buying them as second players. For those regular consumers who take the bait, I wonder how they'll feel when they realize they can't play those big Disney titles in the "blu" boxes due next week.

Speaking of which... a couple weeks ago, when Disney and Sony launched the successful strategy of counter-selling their Blu-ray software titles 2 for 1 the same week Paramount and DreamWorks released Transformers on HD-DVD, we got a few e-mails from HD-DVD fans telling us how lame that was. Is it any accident that Toshiba didn't wait for Black Friday to sell their $99 players, instead carefully planning the 3-day sale for the weekend before Disney and Pixar release Cars, Ratatouille and the Pixar Short Films Collection on Blu-ray? Not a chance. So Toshiba is slashing HD-DVD hardware prices to counteract the release of blockbuster Blu-ray software. What does that tell you about the viability of HD-DVD going into a fourth quarter that, by all accounts, is make or break for the format? (Especially with Warner Home Video now hinting that they're looking at the fourth quarter to "reevaluate" their dual format support)

Hey - there's no doubt that thousands of eager consumers will get a deal on cheap hardware this weekend. But it still isn't going to be the format war winner for HD-DVD that some would like to believe. On the contrary, it means that Toshiba is getting desperate... and is going even more deeply into the red with this format. Meanwhile, given the strength of their rhetoric this week, it's a safe bet that the Blu-ray camp will continue to press their advantage in the fourth quarter, and start turning up the heat on HD-DVD in the weeks and months ahead.

It boggles the mind to think that any reasonable person can still believe at this point that the HD-DVD format represents a viable long-term business for Hollywood. Keep in mind, contrary to the opinions of some online, we don't think HD-DVD is a bad format at all. If it were the only HD format around, we'd be all over it here at The Bits. But Toshiba is effectively paying studios to support it, and now they're practically giving the hardware and software away. Do you suppose we'll see free HD-DVD player offers in Cracker Jacks and cereal boxes next? $50 players? $25 players? 2 for 1 players?

Experienced fighter pilots will tell you that when you dive your aircraft at the deck, you very quickly run out of maneuvering room. It seems to me that the ground is coming up awfully fast for HD-DVD.

Back with more on Blu-ray Fest later this afternoon. Stay tuned...

Good ol' Blu Bits.

 

[plagiarize]

Hmm...I need an animated movie to add to my blu-ray collection.

Is ratatoulie (can't spell) a good blind purchase?

basically, anything pixar is.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

And how will BD respond? The cheapest BD player is still $399.99 and AFAIK, there aren't even any rumors of players being below that price this Holiday season.

I imagine there will be Black Friday deals for BluRay players, too.

 

[bishoptl]

I cant take ALL the credit!
Did you ever read Howard Stern's "Private Parts"? The man is a FUCKING genius, he was the FIRST author to use various sized/colored/type of font's to make CERTAIN words POP, off the page, I can't do the FANCY shit easily, so this will have to do

Motherfucker

 

[Christoff Yurievich]

heh, whoops.

On the contrary, it means that Toshiba is getting desperate... and is going even more deeply into the red with this format.

well duh. they are HD-DVD, after all.

Spoiler

and before you jump on me, it's the cases dummy.

 

[Maxwell House]

OH SHIT ... HOUSTON ... WE HAVE A PROBLEM!!!

Notice the description. It says Toshiba A2 DVD Player.

Wow, that is really poor damage control. These things are selling out regardless of a typo. :lol

 

[chubigans]

Motherfucker

:lol :lol

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

Who the hell thought HD-DVD players would get to $99 so damn fast?

And how will BD respond? The cheapest BD player is still $399.99 and AFAIK, there aren't even any rumors of players being below that price this Holiday season.

At $399 a stand-alone player will cut into PS3 sales because Blu-Ray consumers will just stray away from the foreign videogames section and pick up the standalone player.

This will reduce PS3 sales by about 25%.

 

[gkryhewy]

Best Buy has removed the HD-A2 page. Crap! Looks like the only shot at the $99 player is Wal-Mart, and I'm not at all interested in lining up or asking family to line up.

 

[Maxwell House]

Best Buy has removed the HD-A2 page. Crap! Looks like the only shot at the $99 player is Wal-Mart, and I'm not at all interested in lining up or asking family to line up.

If we don't get them tomorrow, I wouldn't worry too much. I believe $99 Toshibas will be available pretty frequently through the Christmas season, at more than one retailer.