Hi-Def Media Lovefest: The war is over and we can all go home.
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VanMardigan
has calmed down a bit.
msdstc said:
I doubt any studio out there is making money (outside of incentives and such offered by Toshiba/Sony). At this point, HD discs are an investment for all parties involved. As the market grows, then the money rolls in.
btw, Crank HD DVD:
Running Time: 93 minutes (Directors Cut)
Aspect Ratio: 1,85:1 (1080p/VC-1)
Languages: German (DTS-HD 5.1)
English (DTS-HD 5.1)
This is from area-HD.de
Garbage. pure garbage.
OokieSpookie
Banned
msdstc said:
The BDA is not just Sony, it is not like HD and Toshiba.
If Sony puts out a $100 player it should screw over LG, Samsung and others who are not ready to take that loss.
Not only that but it would be a sub standard player.
The PS3 counters anything that HD can do while blu stand alone players come down at their own pace.
Besides as Toshiba will find out, when you put players out at 100 you will have a hell of a time selling them when they are at normal price.
Cosmic Bus
pristine morning snow
My annoyance with Paramount stems from their disinterest in releasing catalog titles. They've had multiple opportunities recently to put out major films to coincide with new editions on standard DVD (Titanic, Chinatown and Braveheart) since there are HD masters available for all three, but they've foolishly opted not to.
My interest in high-def media falls further and further as fewer catalog titles are announced.
My interest in high-def media falls further and further as fewer catalog titles are announced.
DarthWaiter
Banned
thanks for the replies, that's what I was trying to get at; that the number are actually so small on both sides of the camp, that using percentages hide the true facts about the disappointment of both sides, albiet Blu-Ray winning right now.
The jump into the Hi-Def format is a very hard decision. No one wants to support a side that could fail. One format will eventually win. Right now it looks like Blu-Ray, but things could change.
Sony; however, has a worst track rate of failed formats. UMD, Mini-Disc, Beta, etc
I am strongly leaning toward getting Blu-Ray but with DreamWorks not supporting Blu-Ray it is a kick in the face. Even though Disney and FOX support Blu-Ray which in my opinion is a reason for me to buy Blu-Ray, there's a ton of movies that are on HD-DVD that aren't on Blu-Ray and with companies taking sides they either may not come to Blu-Ray ever (i.e. Blu-ray loses) or we will have to wait a very long time for them to come to Blu-Ray (when/if Blu-Ray wins).
There's just too much variables in this, and you guys ( the hardcore first adopters) have to understand that there's alot to comtemplate in the decisions of going Hi-Def.
The jump into the Hi-Def format is a very hard decision. No one wants to support a side that could fail. One format will eventually win. Right now it looks like Blu-Ray, but things could change.
Sony; however, has a worst track rate of failed formats. UMD, Mini-Disc, Beta, etc
I am strongly leaning toward getting Blu-Ray but with DreamWorks not supporting Blu-Ray it is a kick in the face. Even though Disney and FOX support Blu-Ray which in my opinion is a reason for me to buy Blu-Ray, there's a ton of movies that are on HD-DVD that aren't on Blu-Ray and with companies taking sides they either may not come to Blu-Ray ever (i.e. Blu-ray loses) or we will have to wait a very long time for them to come to Blu-Ray (when/if Blu-Ray wins).
There's just too much variables in this, and you guys ( the hardcore first adopters) have to understand that there's alot to comtemplate in the decisions of going Hi-Def.
OokieSpookie
Banned
I suppose I am going to have to start posting every single blu import of an hd exclusive now aren't I...
VanMardigan
has calmed down a bit.
OokieSpookie said:
I have a hard time believing that BD CE companies (excluding combo folks like LG and Samsung) couldn't sell a comparable amount of standalones on HD DVD given how utterly pathetic they're selling right now. Other than the Sony, what other standalone company has sold any kind of halfway decent units? You seen any press releases from Panasonic, Samsung, etc. on their Blu Ray standalone sales recently?
The Ps3 is having the same effect that Toshiba's low prices would have on other CE standalones. The only way for the CE's to sell would be to undercut the Ps3 significantly. I've said many times that CE's should just focus on doing combo drives, since Toshiba and Sony will own the dedicated player market.
feel free, chief, if it bugs you so much.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Cosmic Bus said:
This has been where Universal really shines. They're the only studio who was really hitting the catalogs hard-- presumably to mke up for HD-DVD having fewer studios-- but the effect was quite nice.
I imagine next year is when the other studios will start doing the same.
OokieSpookie said:
understandable. I do realize those kind of things, but I remember an article not too long ago about some company claiming bluray will be getting a chinese player soon too? I dunno I just think they need to keep at it while it's hot, bluray has a nice big lead right now. Not just because it is winning in america, but because it appears to have already won in other regions. I just think when formats duke it out too long, they both get forgotten and people are scared to invest in one side.
OokieSpookie
Banned
DarthWaiter said:
It is widely accepted ( well by most with common sense anyway ) that neither format has a future if thie war keeps up.
One format has to win for any dent to ever be put into dvd, and the longer it goes on the smaller the chances of that happening become.
Every single person in this thread understands there is alot to consider before making a choice I would think. ( at least I would hope )
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
DarthWaiter said:
*Now* I think you should go back and reread the thread.
A few points, substantiated months ago:
1) Absoulte numbers aren't the issue, which format gets the support so that as HD adoption grows it grows along with it-- that's the current war (and if you think that isn't important, consider $150M poured into the market as an example)
2) Sony also was behind that Compact Disc thingie, too. Hmmm. And one of the three major DVD partners. Hmm. Sony is also not solo on Blu-Ray-- that's overstated.
3) Agreed that it's a tough decision right now. But I imagine it will be an easy decision very soon.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
VanMardigan said:
How is it garbage? $99 HD-DVD standalone players already? To me they are whoring out their brand. $199 should be the lowest HD-DVD player on the market.
OokieSpookie
Banned
VanMardigan said:
They are not selling that bad though, that is HD fud crap.
Before the walmart clearance sale that HD threw the stand alone rates were neck and neck at the 200k mark.
And judging by the 750k number they have not sold THAT many since then, considering that 300k - 350k of that number is made up of 260 add ons.
So for all of the chest thumping and bullshit that hd throws out there, between the walmart clearance sale and black friday they have sold perhaps 200k total stand alones.
That is nothing to be really excited about considering what had to be done to get those sales and the fact that they will have a hell of a time moving 199 and higher players without alot of incentives thrown in after that.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
This thread always gets lively when new numbers come out, especially if the numbers are very lopsided. 
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Van, I cannot fathom why the CE companies aren't taking your advice. Perhaps they know something that you don't?
Remember DreamWorks' library is not totally exclusive because Spielberg has a Blu-ray preference (like a lot of major producers and directors in Hollywood save Lucas who gives a big meh to both) and so any of those films, if he gives the OK will be dual-format since he was incensed by the Paramount deal.
Has there been any word on whether they will be releasing them? I have a feeling Spielberg doesn't want to release anything till the war is over, especially on HD-DVD (since Close Encounters was released by Sony)
Has there been any word on whether they will be releasing them? I have a feeling Spielberg doesn't want to release anything till the war is over, especially on HD-DVD (since Close Encounters was released by Sony)
Ignatz Mouse said:This thread always gets lively when new numbers come out, especially if the numbers are very lopsided.
Well, it used to be that it would be just Blu-ray supporters in the thread for Friday and Saturday, but ever since the Paramount deal, HDDVD supporters are now more vocal.
Christoff Yurievich
Member
2. as difficult as it is for Warner to get their releases out on Blu vs. HD-DVD I dunno. almost all of their big releases have been delayed/short-shipped on Blu-Ray._leech_ said:
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
My guess (and it's only a guess) is that between Paramount's deal and the claims that Spielberg has pro-Blu (or dual) stipulations on is stuff, that his Paramount movies cock-blocked until the Paramount agreement expires.
Oh, and speaking of that, whoever handled the reporting/leaking of the Paramount deal details totally messed up by allowing that fact that it had an expiration date to leak. I'd be willing to bet that *all* the exclusivity deals have a limited lifespan and conditional details, but letting them get out undermined the point of the announcement. I bet the HD-DVD promotional group was extremely pissed about that.
Oh, and speaking of that, whoever handled the reporting/leaking of the Paramount deal details totally messed up by allowing that fact that it had an expiration date to leak. I'd be willing to bet that *all* the exclusivity deals have a limited lifespan and conditional details, but letting them get out undermined the point of the announcement. I bet the HD-DVD promotional group was extremely pissed about that.
The conflict in Warner is between what the Time-Warner board want and what the executives in Warner Home Video Entertainment want.
Home Video worked with Toshiba on DVD and therefore they are loyal. Remember it was the board that forced them to also pick Blu-ray. A lot of things going on, Nickersons departure could signal a complete change of attitude from WHVE but it will take time.
Home Video worked with Toshiba on DVD and therefore they are loyal. Remember it was the board that forced them to also pick Blu-ray. A lot of things going on, Nickersons departure could signal a complete change of attitude from WHVE but it will take time.
OokieSpookie
Banned
The bottom line with Warner is that by the end of this year when Harry Potter joins the list and each version sells more on blu than it does on HD , all excuses will be gone.
Dragging the war out after that is just inconceivable and illogical.
Dragging the war out after that is just inconceivable and illogical.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Lower prices have absolutely killed the Wii's sales and public perception.mckmas8808 said:
eh, by this point right now DVD had a whopping total of 1.3M players installed in America. Fox had JUST come on board with minimal effort, Disney was a year away from releasing their first animated classic and we had just seen the first true killer app released (GINO which outpaced VHS sales).
All things considered, the markets are very similar within their first year and a half. The big deal for DVD that really turned it into the market darling was it's second and third full years, doing 4 times and 2 times the business each of those years respectively. The end of the 2nd year is also by no coincidence when we started seeing the mass introduction of sub-$200 players. The point being all this talk of the war causing the formats to flounder or that both are facing extinction is pretty silly when you look at the pace the formats are keeping. If either can explode next year much like how DVD exploded in 1999, there's no reason to expect them (or the winner) to not be just as popular.
As for the "replacing your DVD library argument" I like to think of myself as quite a movie enthusiast, and I have no intentions of replacing my existing collection. I do have every intention of only buying the HDM when it is available, and do have every intention of buying catalog titles that are a significant technical or feature-wise improvement over the previous DVD release... much like how many of us approached DVD from the start.
All things considered, the markets are very similar within their first year and a half. The big deal for DVD that really turned it into the market darling was it's second and third full years, doing 4 times and 2 times the business each of those years respectively. The end of the 2nd year is also by no coincidence when we started seeing the mass introduction of sub-$200 players. The point being all this talk of the war causing the formats to flounder or that both are facing extinction is pretty silly when you look at the pace the formats are keeping. If either can explode next year much like how DVD exploded in 1999, there's no reason to expect them (or the winner) to not be just as popular.
As for the "replacing your DVD library argument" I like to think of myself as quite a movie enthusiast, and I have no intentions of replacing my existing collection. I do have every intention of only buying the HDM when it is available, and do have every intention of buying catalog titles that are a significant technical or feature-wise improvement over the previous DVD release... much like how many of us approached DVD from the start.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
Wii is low-cost only compared to the currently inflated market. $250 is only $50 below the opening proce point of most successful consoles in the last 15 years.
OokieSpookie
Banned
dallow_bg said:
QFT
the larry david sandwich
Banned
mckmas8808 said:
this is by far the funniest thing ive read in the thread. you hear that toshiba you should price your hardware higher (it obviously worked for sonys gaming division :rolleyes) that will help you sell more software. by making players affordable to J6P you are whoring yourself out, matter of fact hire mckmas as your marketing guy im sure things will get better for you.
that may have been one of the most ignorant fanboyish comments yet. as a consumer why should you care how much a company looses in order to sell a product, unless you have something personally vested in the company.
omg sony dropped the price of the ps3 to 400, im not buying it now its not as prestigious and it seems they are whoring themselves out
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
It's not only about the price. Nintendo isn't selling the Wii below price value. Toshiba is artifically lowering the price of their players waaaaay to early.
Christoff Yurievich
Member
uh, no. You honestly don't remember stories from this thread about how hard it can be to find Warner releases? I've had many of the same problems, such as Ocean's Eleven and some of the Kubrick movies. It's annoying.dallow_bg said:
BotoxAgent
Member
the other day i had a long conversation with another customer who kept insisting that his $40 upconverting player is a high-definition player, and I had to explain to him that why it's not the same thing as HD-DVD or Blu-Ray
ignorance is going to kill HDM :-/
ignorance is going to kill HDM :-/
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
the larry david sandwich said:
Because if the company loses too much money the product that I want to buy from them may cease to exist!!!
I think that's a good enough reason. What about you?
OokieSpookie
Banned
bune duggy said:
That is in Canada for the most part, and while that is not a great thing it is not the same as the pont trying to be made.
Here in the US there have been no issues finding any of them ( at least that I am aware of )
OokieSpookie
Banned
the larry david sandwich said:
I honestly agree that 199 should have been the sale price , because when you bottom out you set expectations.
Toshiba pushed and pushed the 99 player and really low price players that when they are not on sale or not having huge incentives they will not move.
They would have still sold out of the A2 at 199, 189 or 179.
Christoff Yurievich
Member
seeing as I'm in America as well...OokieSpookie said:
at any rate, I'm just a little more irate than usual because of the crap I've gone through regarding the Ocean's box set with WHV's online store. It's not in any of the local Best Buy's, Circuit City's, or Target's and it's back-ordered at best buy.com (I have gift cards). It's just frustrating because I see three - four copies of it on HD-DVD at all of these stores.
chalk it up to this, if it's true:
avaya said:
This is a bullshit argument created by competition. No one has ever been scared away by drastically falling prices. The argument has always stemmed that lowering prices drastically causes the consumer to think fire sale and back away. The truth is that cases where drastically lowering prices has been followed by disinterest or even greater atrophy has always directly correlated with an inability to follow through.mckmas8808 said:
People love to cite the DC mass price reduction, but then fail to mention the serious new release drought that immediately preceded it. People love to mention the GCN $99 price drop but then conveniently leave out that Nintendo never followed through with any sort of marketing or 3rd party push.
What happened when the first $50 DVD players were released when most name brands were still selling at $120? What happened when the first $99 players were released when most name brands were still coming in closer to $250? The Wii is mentioned here, yet nothing is said about the fact that the Wii has some seriously killer apps lined up behind it.
Fire sales don't kill products. Fire sales with nothing propping up the price tag kill products. And while HD-DVD is certainly lacking some big names this fall, they have a few of their own big names to counter it. I'm not defending or supporting the format war, but this talk of Toshiba hurting HD-DVDs position by positioning affordable hardware is just outright stupid. Being able to walk into Best Buy and grabbing a player plus 3-4 movies and going home to watch them for under $300 is in no possible way a bad thing. And having to pay $500 to say the same thing about a blu-ray player and movies in no way shape or form makes it inherently better. Let's at least try to use some common sense in this argument.
a) this entire war is about subsidiesmckmas8808 said:
b) Why do you honestly think one side or the other would do something that would directly hurt them and cause them to fold? If/when HD-DVD goes down, $99 and $199 players won't have a single damn thing to do with it.
VanMardigan
has calmed down a bit.
The biggest standalone sales belong to Sony, who shipped 100k of their standalones a few months back. So, going by YOUR numbers, that leaves Samsung, Sharp, Panasonic, LG, and the rest of the BD CE troupe at about 100k. In a year. Like I said, they could very EASILY do as well on HD DVD.
LG and Samsung already are, and I imagine if this isn't solved by next year, the remaining CE's will jump in as well with combo units.
BS. I've never backed away from this thread, regardless of ratios. Which HD DVD supporter here talks sales and then doesn't show up on Fridays?
HD DVD is at 750k, and Blu Ray is about twice 1.3M if you count all Ps3s'. I don't think either format is floundering, since both are clearly growing, but the war definitely has kept some folks on the fence. I still don't expect these formats to grow at the same rate as dvd, given the barriers of HD penetration etc.
The next interesting week will be next week's (Dec 4th).
Blu-ray:
Superbad
Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End (Buena Vista)
Cast Away
Terminator 3: Rise of The Machines (Already released on HD DVD)
20 Million Miles to Earth (Sony)
Queen Rocks Montreal & Live Aid (Eagle Rock)
Mr. & Mrs. Smith (Fox)
Ronin (MGM)
HD-DVD:
Battlestar Galactica: Season One
Arctic Tale
Neutral:
Sunrise Earth: American Sunrise
1,000 Places to See Before You Die: 50 Favorite Destinations (Image)
50 Paintings from the Museum of Mordern Art (Image)
The Amazing World of National Geographic (Image)
Art Wolfe: Vanishing Act (Image)
After that is...
BD / HD DVD / Warner (Neutral)
Dec 11:
Lost & High School Musical 2 vs. Borune 3 vs. Harry Potter.
Dec 18:
Simpsons Movie vs. Stardust vs. Blade Runner
Dec 28:
Rush Hour 3 vs. Time Cop vs. Pans Labrynth.
I think HD DVD may not win a week in 2007.
Blu-ray:
Superbad
Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End (Buena Vista)
Cast Away
Terminator 3: Rise of The Machines (Already released on HD DVD)
20 Million Miles to Earth (Sony)
Queen Rocks Montreal & Live Aid (Eagle Rock)
Mr. & Mrs. Smith (Fox)
Ronin (MGM)
HD-DVD:
Battlestar Galactica: Season One
Arctic Tale
Neutral:
Sunrise Earth: American Sunrise
1,000 Places to See Before You Die: 50 Favorite Destinations (Image)
50 Paintings from the Museum of Mordern Art (Image)
The Amazing World of National Geographic (Image)
Art Wolfe: Vanishing Act (Image)
After that is...
BD / HD DVD / Warner (Neutral)
Dec 11:
Lost & High School Musical 2 vs. Borune 3 vs. Harry Potter.
Dec 18:
Simpsons Movie vs. Stardust vs. Blade Runner
Dec 28:
Rush Hour 3 vs. Time Cop vs. Pans Labrynth.
I think HD DVD may not win a week in 2007.
but really, who knows? You say you don't expect it, but people didn't expect the Matrix in April 1999 and the resultant DVD movie destroying VHS in October (or was it November?). Maybe Golden Compass is going to bust the format wide-open? Maybe I Am Legend? Or Sweeney Todd? or a movie coming out in spring?VanMardigan said:
DVD wasn't a slow build. It seriously just freaking boomed in 1999 on the back of cheap players, huge software titles, and a market that because of all of that decided it was ready to move. While there is no indication that any of that will happen in 2008 for HDM, there is no indication that any of that WON'T happen in 2008 either.
edit - I do think software prices have to come down though. IIRC by the time Godzilla hit the biggest news was that it debuted at the big box stores for under $19.99. By the time it debuted most new movies and catalog releases were pricing at $19.99-24.99 at the big box stores. These $25-30 disc prices at those stores will HAVE TO drop by at least $5 for either format to start moving in a big way. We're already seeing it with many Warner catalog releases dropping seemingly permanently to $17.99-19.99.. but we need to start seeing more. While $7 more for Transformers in HD doesn't seem like a whole lot more for the same movie in SD, that $7 coupled with the $200 player is a huge turn off.. they seriously need to get movies to the point where the cost difference between SD and HD is negligible enough that the extra $200-400 on a new player is easily justified.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Oni Jazar said:
I am certain of it. What on that list could possible cause them to?
We'll end the year with the YTD ratio equal to or better than it is now. I'll bet it moves a couple of points: 63:37.
VanMardigan
has calmed down a bit.
avaya said:
Next year. Same as Hairspray.
And no love for Cast Away??? Come on! Definitely picking that up along with PoTC 3.
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