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Hi-Def Media Lovefest: The war is over and we can all go home.

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I have used MS since the beginning of days, but am now on my GF's macbook. She has Delicious library and I have loaded my collection, but I can't figure out how to export the image. Can anyone give me a quick primer on how to export. I can only see an option for text export. Thanks in advance for this newbie
 

cjdunn

Member
gandalf77a said:
I have used MS since the beginning of days, but am now on my GF's macbook. She has Delicious library and I have loaded my collection, but I can't figure out how to export the image. Can anyone give me a quick primer on how to export. I can only see an option for text export. Thanks in advance for this newbie

Ah, I think what most people are doing is using OS X's built-in screenshot function.
Whole desktop -> Command (Apple) + Shift + 3
Cropping cursor -> Command (Apple) + Shift + 4
Application window -> Command (Apple) + Shift + 4 and then hit the Spacebar

The resulting shot goes to the Desktop as Picture 1, Picture 2 and so on.

[Edit: number 3 & 4 not F3 and F4, dur]
 

knicks

Member
Warm Machine said:
Is there a reasonably priced Blu-Ray stand alone player out there that has the proper/complete hardware spec. No PS3 as I want to be able to use my Harmony and the bluetooth remote portion of the PS3 drives me.

It really is not a big deal. Use the harmony to go to the input the PS3 uses and if you are turning on your PS3 it is likely that you have your controller right next to you. You can just turn on the system wirelessly holding down the PS button on the PS3 controller. The harmony capability really shouldn't be an issue. Anyways, if it really does concern you I am sure they will make an update in the future. The PS3 is the best blu-ray player out and don't tell me you don't want to play any games....
 

tissot

Member
Does anyone know the cheapest place to get Royal Space Force and Jin-Roh on Blu-Ray? Most of the sites I've checked has them for $50+.
 

thaivo

Member
The Main Event said:
Same here. I just love the disc. I wonder what will happen to web updates on Warner and New Line HD DVD discs.
Yeah, even though they aren't going to support HD DVD anymore, I'm hoping they follow through with their web updates. I mean, they likely already created the content, and it isn't like any BD version is coming with web content anytime soon. :D

It's a stunning movie with stunning imagery, both imaginative and technically brilliant. It's sad that I won't be getting Lord of the Rings on HD DVD, but at least the one New Line release was a great one.
 

thaivo

Member
LINK
....Taking the holiday season sales based on promotional prices into full
consideration, these new manufacturer's suggested retail prices (MSRP) are
designed to meet the potential demand for HD DVD players in the U.S.
market. Effective on January 13, 2008 the MSRP of the entry-model HD-A3
will be $149.99, the HD-A30, with 1080p output, $199.99, and the high-end
HD-A35, $299.99.......
Best response I've seen yet from Toshiba.
 

Ripclawe

Banned
http://prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/01-14-2008/0004735440&EDATE=


WAYNE, N.J., Jan. 14 /PRNewswire/ -- Toshiba America Consumer Products,
L.L.C. ("Toshiba") today announced that it is stepping up its successful
marketing campaign for HD DVD as it experienced record-breaking unit sales
in the fourth quarter of 2007. Major initiatives, including joint
advertising campaigns with studios and extended pricing strategies will
begin in mid- January and are designed to spotlight the superior benefits
of HD DVD as well as the benefits HD DVD brings to a consumer's current DVD
library by upconverting standard DVDs via the HDMI(TM) output to near high
definition picture quality.

As Toshiba achieved the #1 sales volume in the next generation DVD
category with an approximately 50 percent market share in 2007, HD DVD is
proven to be the format of choice for consumers. Coupled with an 80 percent
plus market share of all next generation DVD equipped notebooks for the 4th
quarter 2007, the HD DVD format has already paved the way to a high
definition digital AV solution by eliminating the boundaries between the
consumer's living room and on the go.

HD DVD not only creates the ultimate high definition entertainment
experience, leveraging all of the promise of the format such as superior
audio/video performance, Web-enabled network capabilities and advanced
interactive features - it also has a high-level of compatibility with DVD.
With DVD upconversion via the HDMI output, HD DVD players instantly make a
movie lover's existing DVD library look better than ever.

"HD DVD is the best way to watch movies in high definition," said Jodi
Sally, Vice President of Marketing, Toshiba's Digital A/V Group. "Our HD
DVD players not only play back approximately 800 HD DVD titles available
worldwide and deliver an entirely new level of entertainment but also
enhance the picture quality to near high definition on legacy DVD titles by
all studios. In short, we added high def to DVD which already is the de
facto standard format created and approved by the DVD Forum that consists
of more than two hundred companies."

New Marketing Strategy for Mass Market Adoption

Taking the holiday season sales based on promotional prices into full
consideration, these new manufacturer's suggested retail prices (MSRP) are
designed to meet the potential demand for HD DVD players in the U.S.
market. Effective on January 13, 2008 the MSRP of the entry-model HD-A3
will be $149.99, the HD-A30, with 1080p output, $199.99, and the high-end
HD-A35, $299.99.

"While price is one of the consideration elements for the early
adopter, it is a deal-breaker for the mainstream consumer," said Yoshi
Uchiyama, Group Vice President Digital A/V Group. "Consumer sales this
holiday season have proven that the consumer awareness of the HD DVD format
has been elevated and pricing is the most critical determinant in
consumers' purchase decision of

the next generation HD DVD technology. The value HD DVD provides to the
consumer simply cannot be ignored."

Extended Advertising Campaign

Toshiba plans to execute an extended advertising campaign that will
further enhance consumer awareness of the benefits of HD DVD and drive
sales to retail among potential consumers. Advertising strategies will
include television, print and online media channels. Toshiba will also work
with its dealers and studio partners on joint marketing and promotional
initiatives to promote HD DVD. Current promotions include "The Perfect HD
Offer" - a mail-in offer allowing consumers to select five HD DVD titles
for free from a selection of 15 with the purchase of any Toshiba HD DVD
player.

Consistent Viewing Experience and More

With advanced interactivity and Web-enabled network capabilities built
into every HD DVD player through a dedicated Ethernet port as mandated by
the specifications approved by the DVD Forum, Toshiba delivers on the
promise of a consistent entertainment experience through firmware updates
as studios launch new applications. HD DVD allows studios to flex their
creative muscle in ways never before seen. The latest of these new
experiences is online streaming. Now, when consumers connect their HD DVD
player to the Internet, they can stream new content or trailers, as
available, directly from a movie studio's server.

Universal Home Video, Paramount Pictures and DreamWorks Animation SKG
have reported that an average of 30 percent of HD DVD owners have accessed
Web- enabled network features and continue to do so regularly.

Ongoing Customer Commitment

In order to ensure that its customers will receive complete
satisfaction from their new players, Toshiba introduced the "HD DVD
Concierge" earlier this month. Consumers can now call 1-888-MY HDDVD
(1-888-694-3383) for answers to general questions about HD DVD, for
operational assistance or for assistance with various promotions.

About Toshiba HD DVD Players

With the HD DVD format, select HD DVD players allow consumers to
experience true high def 1080p for extraordinary resolution that matches
the latest state of the art 1080p HDTVs. These same players display images
at 24 frames per second, the same frame rate used by directors when using
film to create motion pictures, for a smoother, more film-like, viewing
experience.

Important Notes:

HD DVD with high-definition content required for HD viewing. Up-
conversion of DVD content will result in near HD picture quality. Viewing
high-definition content and up-converting DVD content may require an HDCP
capable DVI or HDMI input on your display device. 1080p capable display
required for viewing content in 1080p. Firmware update may be required for
some interactive features depending on content, which may also require an
always-on broadband internet connection. Some features may require
additional bandwidth. To take advantage of web-enabled network content,
installing the latest firmware (ver.2.4 for HD DVD player models HD-XA1,
HD-A1, and HD-D1; ver.2.7 for HD-XA2, HD-A2, HD-A2W, HD-D2, HD-A2C, and
HD-A20; and ver.1.3 for HD-A35, HD-A30, and HD-A3) is required. Web-enabled
network features require an always on broadband connection along with
specific movie titles that include this form of content. For 24p output,
content that was created in 1080p/24 frames/sec is required. Viewing 24p
output requires an HD display capable of accepting a 1080p/24Hz signal. Use
of REGZA Link, which is a feature based on HDMI-CEC, requires an HDMI-CEC
compatible display device. Depending on the specifications of your TV, some
or all REGZA Link functions may not work even if your TV is HDMI-CEC
compatible. Dolby(R) Digital Plus, Dolby(R) TrueHD and DTS(R) support for
up to 5.1 channels (DTS HD(R) support for DTS(R) core only). MP3/WMA audio
files not supported. HDMI audio output requires connection to a PCM capable
device. Because HD DVD is a new format that makes use of new technologies,
certain disc, digital connection and other compatibility and/or performance
issues are possible. This may, in rare cases, include disc freezing while
accessing certain disc features or functions, or certain parts of the disc
not playing back or operating as fully intended. If you experience such
issues, please refer to the FAQ sections of http://www.toshibahddvd.com or
http://www.tacp.toshiba.com for information on possible work- around solutions or
the availability of firmware updates that may resolve your problem, or
contact Toshiba Customer Solutions. Some features subject to delayed
availability. While every effort has been made at the time of publication
to ensure the accuracy of the information provided herein, product
specifications, configurations, system/component/options availability are
all subject to change without notice.

About Toshiba America Consumer Products, L.L.C.

Toshiba America Consumer Products, L.L.C. is owned by Toshiba America,
Inc., a subsidiary of Toshiba Corporation, a world leader in high
technology products with subsidiaries worldwide. Toshiba is a pioneer in HD
DVD, DVD and DVD Recorder technology and a leading manufacturer of a full
line of home entertainment products, including flat panel TV, combination
products and portable devices. Toshiba America Consumer Products, L.L.C. is
headquartered in Wayne, New Jersey. For additional information, please
visit http://www.tacp.toshiba.com.
 
Why get a cheaper player when no movies are going to be coming out for it?? lol, hd-dvd cannot come back, this looks like them clearing inventory more than anything else...
 

thaivo

Member
hidefdigest.com 3:10 to Yuma Review is finally up

So as I have said and others, the PQ is very good and the disc is great all around. 4.5/5 on the review

'3:10 to Yuma' didn't quite revitalize the Western genre as its makers may have hoped, but it's an entertaining (if flawed) movie. The Blu-ray has excellent picture and sound, plus some worthwhile supplements, especially the ones that provide historical context. Recommended for sure.
 
Well it is only a matter of time before Paramount and Universal drop hd-dvd. The execs there must have alot of pressure on them to switch...At this point why support hd-dvd by buying a player and movies and helping the delay of the inevitable?
 

thaivo

Member
BoboBrazil said:
Well it is only a matter of time before Paramount and Universal drop hd-dvd. The execs there must have alot of pressure on them to switch...At this point why support hd-dvd by buying a player and movies and helping the delay of the inevitable?
If I was in the market to replace a broken DVD player, and didn't have the stomach to plop down $300 on BD, a $125 or so HD DVD player and upconverter would be a great buy, especially when it comes with two HD DVD's (nice ones at that).
 
as well as the benefits HD DVD brings to a consumer's current DVD
library by upconverting standard DVDs via the HDMI(TM) output to near high
definition picture quality.

I never knew that hd dvd players were the secret to upscaling :lol
 

ManaByte

Gold Member
Broadbandito said:
hidefdigest.com 3:10 to Yuma Review is finally up

So as I have said and others, the PQ is very good and the disc is great all around. 4.5/5 on the review

Yeah, but the disc isn't Profile 1.1 as promised:
Inside Yuma – When this disc was first announced by Lionsgate, indications were that it would be a Profile 1.1-enabled title with Picture-in-Picture interactive features. However, the actual release product does not conform to the Profile 1.1 specification. When activated, Inside Yuma presents a pop-up control bar down the left of the screen containing selectable icons. Initially we start with options for script pages or storyboard graphics that can be overlaid on top of the movie (powered by regular Java, and not necessarily requiring Profile 1.1 capability). They are sporadic and frankly not all that interesting. As the movie progresses, new icons appear that will cause the movie to pause and branch off into separately encoded versions of the scene with Picture-in-Picture windows burned into the video. When complete, you'll be returned back to the main movie. Each of these segments is encoded with AVC compression, whereas the regular movie uses VC-1. Among the content are behind-the-scenes production footage, visual effects demonstrations, and "dailies" (a showcase of all the unedited footage from every camera angle that the editor had to work with, presented side-by-side in small boxes next to the final version). None of them are all that compelling, and the constant pausing and restarting of the movie is annoying. If the disc authors were going to use branching rather than true PiP, why not branch off into full-screen versions of the video segments that you could clearly see, rather than tiny fake PiP windows? It feels like the Inside Yuma feature was originally intended to utilize true Profile 1.1 functionality, but the authors couldn't get it to work in time and created this irritating workaround instead.
 

thaivo

Member
Nice Ad
2.jpg
 

bishoptl

Banstick Emeritus
Alcibiades said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=friS4OOcdgQ

:lol

even though I haven't been a Blu-ray fan, this is absolutely hilarious...
He matched the lines and emotion perfectly. Damn. :lol

Toshiba America Consumer Products,
L.L.C. ("Toshiba") today announced that it is stepping up its successful
marketing campaign for HD DVD as it experienced record-breaking unit sales
in the fourth quarter of 2007. Major initiatives, including joint
advertising campaigns with studios and extended pricing strategies will
begin in mid- January and are designed to spotlight the superior benefits
of HD DVD as well as the benefits HD DVD brings to a consumer's current DVD
library by upconverting standard DVDs via the HDMI(TM) output to near high
definition picture quality.
It's still good! It's still good!
 

Argyle

Member
Toshiba said:
As Toshiba achieved the #1 sales volume in the next generation DVD
category with an approximately 50 percent market share in 2007, HD DVD is
proven to be the format of choice for consumers. Coupled with an 80 percent
plus market share of all next generation DVD equipped notebooks for the 4th
quarter 2007, the HD DVD format has already paved the way to a high
definition digital AV solution by eliminating the boundaries between the
consumer's living room and on the go.

LOL...approximately...as in "we almost sold more HD DVD players than standalone Blu-ray players, but we had to round up - good thing there was more than one company making Blu players whereas we didn't have to share our almost but not quite 50%" :)
 

Argyle

Member
Snah said:
This shit can't be for real, can it?

Is this Toshiba's "exit strategy"?

They gotta do something with that warehouse of players...maybe they can sell a bunch more of them at this price point before they finally have to really drop the price hardcore to clearance the buggers out...

Everyone I know has heard about the Warner news, even those who have neither Blu-ray or HD DVD, so I would suspect that the players are still slightly radioactive even at their new price points.
 

Snah

Banned
thaivo said:
They should have done it before the holidays... Oh well. :lol

Why does Toshiba still think they have a chance? This seriously boggles the mind. I'm hoping this is just a ploy to liquidate their current inventory of HD-DVD players...

They can't possibily think that they stand a chance at getting Sony, Fox, Disney, and Warner to switch sides?

I hope Universal/Paramount announce something soon, because this is just getting ridiculous. I hope Blu-Ray crushes HD-DVD in nielsen tracking consistently by 90:10 from now on just to shut Toshiba up.
 

thaivo

Member
Snah said:
Why does Toshiba still think they have a chance? This seriously boggles the mind. I'm hoping this is just a ploy to liquidate their current inventory of HD-DVD players...
Probably because they can have the A3 at $129 at Costco.. that includes Bourne Identity and 300.. Anyone who picks up a $70 upconverter rather than this would be senseless.
2000858683512771792_rs.jpg
:D
 
Snah said:
This shit can't be for real, can it?

Is this Toshiba's "exit strategy"?

Why are Universal and Paramount STILL ON BOARD?

IIM.jpg


Toshiba said:
As Toshiba achieved the #1 sales volume in the next generation DVD
category with an approximately 50 percent market share in 2007, HD DVD is
proven to be the format of choice for consumers.
 

Argyle

Member
thaivo said:
Probably because they can have the A3 at $129 at Costco.. that includes Bourne Identity and 300.. Anyone who picks up a $70 upconverter rather than this would be senseless.
2000858683512771792_rs.jpg
:D

Why? The HD DVD playback part of the machine will almost certainly soon be useless, meaning you had might as well set the extra $60 on fire.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Argyle said:
Why? The HD DVD playback part of the machine will almost certainly soon be useless, meaning you had might as well set the extra $60 on fire.


It's a spectacular regular DVD player for $70. The movies aren't going to magically stop working, and there are likely some HD DVDs that will simply never make it to Blu Ray, for lack of demand. It's an amazing deal for anyone, even folks who're emo about Blu Ray.
 

Days like these...

Have a Blessed Day
thaivo said:
They should have done it before the holidays... Oh well. :lol

Yeah they should have. It won't work with only 2 studios on their side. The only thing that would work is paying a couple of studios huge sums of money to at least go neutral.

So much for Toshiba going quietly into the night. I guess they figure what the hell. They really dont have an interest in seeing blu-ray succeed. I still think both formats could have co-existed and carved out a nice slice of the pie. Both formats were still growing and even then combined accounted for what 2 or 3 percent of the market? I think Bewkes (sp?) jumped the gun. I wonder if it'll come back to bite him in the ass someday.
 

thaivo

Member
Argyle said:
Why? The HD DVD playback part of the machine will almost certainly soon be useless, meaning you had might as well set the extra $60 on fire.

It does come with Bourne Ultimatum ($29.99 MSRP) and 300 ($34.99 MSRP)...

Also, certainly, it doesn't play BD's, but how is the "HD DVD" playback part going to be useless? I have 22 HD DVD's, they are definitely not going to be useless. :D

Stinkles said:
It's a spectacular regular DVD player for $70. The movies aren't going to magically stop working, and there are likely some HD DVDs that will simply never make it to Blu Ray, for lack of demand. It's an amazing deal for anyone, even folks who're emo about Blu Ray.

Completely agree. $129 for a HD DVD is an amazing deal, even with the Warner move.
 

Argyle

Member
thaivo said:
It does come with Bourne Ultimatum ($29.99 MSRP) and 300 ($34.99 MSRP)...

Also, certainly, it doesn't play BD's, but how is the "HD DVD" playback part going to be useless? I have 22 HD DVD's, they are definitely not going to be useless. :D

Those movies are pretty cheap on regular DVD - a consumer in the market for an upconverting DVD player is probably better served using the $60 he saved to buy four first run DVD movies. Or saving the $60 and applying it towards a BD player in a year once the prices come down. :D

The HD DVD part will be pretty useless once they stop making HD DVDs, which right now seems like it will happen within the next 12 months.
 

thaivo

Member
Argyle said:
Those movies are pretty cheap on regular DVD - a consumer in the market for an upconverting DVD player is probably better served using the $60 he saved to buy four first run DVD movies. Or saving the $60 and applying it towards a BD player in a year once the prices come down. :D
I see your point, but it is also true that a person in the market for an upconverter either has a 720p or 1080i/p set. You cannot tell me it isn't worth $60 more to get two movies worth nearly that much, and be able to watch HD movies now, and then buy BD when it becomes reasonable.

Argyle said:
The HD DVD part will be pretty useless once they stop making HD DVDs, which right now seems like it will happen within the next 12 months.
I'll have to say that we disagree on the "usefullness" of the player and present libraries of movies. With Toshiba's new marketing plan, and internet sales (Amazon, Exploited Cinema), HD DVD's are going to be available well into 2009. One of the HD discs I'm really interested in is Terminator 2 (German Import)
Days like these... said:
Yeah they should have. It won't work with only 2 studios on their side. The only thing that would work is paying a couple of studios huge sums of money to at least go neutral.

So much for Toshiba going quietly into the night. I guess they figure what the hell. They really dont have an interest in seeing blu-ray succeed. I still think both formats could have co-existed and carved out a nice slice of the pie. Both formats were still growing and even then combined accounted for what 2 or 3 percent of the market? I think Bewkes (sp?) jumped the gun. I wonder if it'll come back to bite him in the ass someday.
Yeah, I think it was a little crazy to think that Toshiba was going to wave a white flag immediately after Warner's announcement. Ultimately I see Toshiba releasing the lowest priced Combo players on the market, as they don't have to pay themselves the licensing fees, and will do quite well. I know I'd buy a combo player from them. :D
 

bishoptl

Banstick Emeritus
ManaByte said:
There's a Blu-Ray ad on The Rock BRD that advertises Blu-Ray upconverting DVDs too.
Yeah, the difference being that's all a desperate Toshiba has to hang their hat on, now.

If I absolutely had to have a cheap upconverting DVD player and didn't have the cash for the format winner, I'd pick up a firesale Toshiba in a minute. Then again, I could wait another month and see that price slashed by another 15-20%. Free movies are no joke.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Argyle said:
Those movies are pretty cheap on regular DVD - a consumer in the market for an upconverting DVD player is probably better served using the $60 he saved to buy four first run DVD movies. Or saving the $60 and applying it towards a BD player in a year once the prices come down. :D

The HD DVD part will be pretty useless once they stop making HD DVDs, which right now seems like it will happen within the next 12 months.


Why don't you just admit you are emotionally invested in Blu Ray and let people take advantage of the deal? If you like movies, and high definition, then you should probably consider it yourself.
 

Argyle

Member
Stinkles said:
Why don't you just admit you are emotionally invested in Blu Ray and let people take advantage of the deal? If you like movies, and high definition, then you should probably consider it yourself.

Touchy touchy - I wouldn't recommend it to someone who is only interested in an upconverting DVD player.

I like movies, and I like high definition, so I already own an HD-A2 as well as a PS3. But I wouldn't tell someone who really doesn't care about HD to spend an extra $60 on functionality they don't care about and whose value will depreciate rapidly.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Argyle said:
Touchy touchy - I wouldn't recommend it to someone who is only interested in an upconverting DVD player.

I like movies, and I like high definition, so I already own an HD-A2 as well as a PS3. But I wouldn't tell someone who really doesn't care about HD to spend an extra $60 on functionality they don't care about and whose value will depreciate rapidly.


WHY DON'T YOU MARRY IT!?
 

thaivo

Member
Argyle said:
Touchy touchy - I wouldn't recommend it to someone who is only interested in an upconverting DVD player.

I like movies, and I like high definition, so I already own an HD-A2 as well as a PS3. But I wouldn't tell someone who really doesn't care about HD to spend an extra $60 on functionality they don't care about and whose value will depreciate rapidly.
What I don't understand about your reasoning is that if someone is looking for an upconverter, they are obviously "interested" in "HD".... :lol I mean what is the point of buying a "upconverter" then?

Stinkles said:
WHY DON'T YOU MARRY IT!?
:lol :lol :lol
 

bishoptl

Banstick Emeritus
thaivo said:
What I don't understand about your reasoning is that if someone is looking for an upconverter, they are obviously "interested" in "HD".... :lol

:lol :lol :lol
I guess what he's saying is that if they were truly interested in investing in HD media, they'd get a Blu-Ray player.
 

Ceb

Member
Stinkles said:
Why don't you just admit you are emotionally invested in Blu Ray and let people take advantage of the deal? If you like movies, and high definition, then you should probably consider it yourself.

I like movies and hi-def content, but I wouldn't want to waste space on a machine that only plays content from two studios that might very well go neutral in the near future. The price doesn't matter - I just find it to be a very unappealing device with its current support.
 

thaivo

Member
bishoptl said:
I guess what he's saying is that if they were truly interested in investing in HD media, they'd get a Blu-Ray player.
But then if all they can afford (willing to spend) is an upconverter, then BD is beyond their means. It's a never ending circle.. :lol
 

bishoptl

Banstick Emeritus
Which is why I said if they want to do it on the cheap, ie. get some free movies and enjoy upconverted DVDs, picking up the firesale Toshiba is a good idea.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Ceb said:
I like movies and hi-def content, but I wouldn't want to waste space on a machine that only plays content from two studios that might very well go neutral in the near future. The price doesn't matter - I just find it to be a very unappealing device with its current support.


Perectly sound reasoning. But I have two places where I watch stuff, so I have a standalone Blu Ray upstairs and PS3 in basement.
 

Argyle

Member
bishoptl said:
I guess what he's saying is that if they were truly interested in investing in HD media, they'd get a Blu-Ray player.

Exactly. The $60 difference just about pays for a SECOND upconverting DVD player...that probably has more utility for someone who is only interested in an upconverter than HD DVD playback, IMHO.
 

thaivo

Member
bishoptl said:
Which is why I said if they want to do it on the cheap, ie. get some free movies and enjoy upconverted DVDs, picking up the firesale Toshiba is a good idea.
I saw your post, and totally agree. What I don't see is Argyle's argument really holding water.
 
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