John Kowalski
Banned
please tell me how this will stop them from getting new needles and sharing them thus increasing hiv
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HIV epidemic in Indiana county after Governor Pence opposes needle-exchange program
- Thread starter thefro
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please tell me how this will stop them from getting new needles and sharing them thus increasing hiv
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
This didn't happen after he opposed the program. It's an outright lie. No, it didn't cause anything. A status quo can't cause a jump from 5 to 70 something. This isn't a difficult thing to grasp. There needs some outside cause to create that jump.
The way the title stands now it implies after he took this stance this epidemic happened. This is 100% false.
I can't believe that you don't understand how it works in the real world.
When you are addicted, you save money wherever you can so you start injecting and also save money on needles by re-using them.
Fenderputty
Banned
your first gut reaction is to treat a drug addict like a criminal. Not just any criminal either. One who's done something bad enough that they deserve punishment equivalent to that of a murderer. This is how America in general reacts, but it's really an inhumane way to approach the problem of addiction. These people need help. Not incarceration or lol a bullet. Taking away their needles isn't going to do shit. Like you could reasonably expect to take needles away from people we can't even keep drugs from. So while you and this politician continue to suggest tried , tested and failed policies, people are still using and sharing needles and causing public health issues.
Coriolanus
Banned
o_ô
Prohibition days.
"Governor, the people won't stop drinking liquor!"
*Well son, they've forced our hand. Take all their glasses. Nothing else we can do.*
They are. Your refusal to believe only aggravates the problem.
Right, because drug addicts will just shrug and give up if you take away their syringes
AwesomePossum
Member
you can't believe because you're too stupid to understand what makes an addict.
I understand what you are saying, but HIV spread isn't all just prevented by having a needle exchange program. It is one of many tools communities and health officials have, so I am glad he has come around to it though.
Jawbreaker
Member
Also, to some people who don't understand the logic behind giving people needles to continue drug use, it isn't just about giving clean needles, which is a good thing. It is also about having an opportunity to reach out to people struggling with addiction so they can get resources (rehab, information, HIV tests).
And to the people saying OMG WHAT A FUCKING MONSTER, needle exchange programs aren't the "remedy" to intravenous drug use HIV spread. There's actually a lot of research on it and sometimes these programs aren't super effective. It needs to be well designed and implemented. However, it is relatively cheap. Sadly, it is also politically unpopular.
And to the people saying OMG WHAT A FUCKING MONSTER, needle exchange programs aren't the "remedy" to intravenous drug use HIV spread. There's actually a lot of research on it and sometimes these programs aren't super effective. It needs to be well designed and implemented. However, it is relatively cheap. Sadly, it is also politically unpopular.
They already have the needles. Nobody is going "oh boy, now that the government is giving away free needles, I can now afford to get addicted to herion!"
Oh ok. I grew up in the 90's and I couldn't tell you how many times I heard "Never share needles because it puts you at high risk of contracting HIV". I also have an addictive personality and I did drugs when I was younger, but I always knew once you start using a needle, you've basically just given up on life.
This isn't adding to the conversation though. Do I think needle exchange programs are good ? Yes, but without any other kind of support, help, or education, it's kind of like "Are you thinking about slitting your wrists and killing yourself ? Come by and get a fresh razor. Because if your suicide fails, we don't want you getting tetanus from a rusty blade"
Coriolanus
Banned
Here's the prob.
The same propaganda that told you that going into the needle meant death also said that weed would kill you.
You know that the second is patently false, so why shouldnt the first also be?
Turns out that, in the proper settings, it also is.
Mind you, that obviously does not mean that everybody should start shooting up heroin cuz lol no problems.
Angelus Errare
Banned
So basically our current system, prison.
You have to look at this as a matter of degrees. Yes, heroin and other intravenous drugs are bad, addiction can be overcome though; but HIV, AIDS, the various Hepatitises and other diseases are far far far worse. People are always going to want to shoot up for one reason or another, nothing we do can change that, but what we can do is eliminate the risk of these diseases spreading like wildfire.
John Kowalski
Banned
They're not criminals, they're sick. Their health is the primary concern and needle exchange programs address that very concern. It's a good solution.
You can either accept that people will get access to drugs and try to get people off them or work on some blind drug ban and be shocked when people addicted to highly addictive drugs still use drugs.
Look at the topic this thread is about, taking away the needle exchange hasn't really helped public health. Access to needles isn't the gateway into drug use here.
Needle exchanges aren't a bad solution to an HIV epidemic. It's just a solution that doesn't solve multiple problems at once.
Drug use really shouldn't be a crime. Drug use should be treated as a public health issue, not a criminal one. We have too many non-violet drug offenders in the prison system. It's costing the country too much as is.
Coriolanus
Banned
WIth drugs, it's not about winning.
It's about minimizing losses.
Legalizing drugs would help a fuckton, btw. Having a proper, regulated, "safe" source of heroin would do wonder for OD deaths while also instantly removing nearly all the power that drug dealers have over their victims.
pixelation
Member
Not completely related but... I think I heard a few months ago about an HIV vaccine that had been developed in Mexico on the TV news... but I've never heard anything more about it, has anyone heard about that?
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
Wait, what ? This is a bad idea all around. Instead of dealers having power over their "victims", drugstores (dealers) would have power over them ?
As of right now you have to be involved with some shady characters to get introduced into heroin. Do you really want it accessible to anybody that walks into a convenience store ? This isn't like weed or alcohol, where you drink or smoke socially on weekends. This is some make you feel better than you've ever felt in your life kind of shit, that makes you want to keep going back until you fall into addiction.
umop_3pisdn
Member
The way addiction and maladaptive personalities work is that you don't have choice, that's what psychopathology is. What's really bafflingly stupid is thinking that people do this sort of thing with full will or cognizance. People who are mentally healthy and well adjusted get to say "hey, being high for a few hours probably isn't worth all of this." People with problems don't. It's really not that hard to understand. But some problems are just easier if you can mentally distance yourself from it with disgust, because then we don't have to think about them, or try to have empathy for people who are clearly living miserable lives that no sane person would freely choose.
benjipwns
Banned
Yeah, there'd never be an alcohol addict with negative repercussions for themselves and others, if there were we could call them like alcohol junkies or something like that. Can you imagine how absurd that'd be lol
Found this - an article in 2002.
http://www.thebody.com/content/art19013.html
Needle exchanges in Indiana have been illegal since at least 2002, 11 years before Mike Pence took office.
http://www.thebody.com/content/art19013.html
Needle exchanges in Indiana have been illegal since at least 2002, 11 years before Mike Pence took office.
They are going to shoot themselves up regardless. That is the point of the needle exchange program. Without it they just save a quick buck a re-use needles as needed. This program isn't the thing that is keeping drug users using drugs, addicts will find a way to get high regardless if this is in place or not. Implementing things like social support, housing, or other support structures would be more ideal but its vastly more expensive. Not to mention would probably be just as contentious as the needle-exchange program because people don't have a favorable view of helping "junkies." This program at least tries to prevent the spread of a costly, dangerous virus. The damages of drug use is at least localized to a single person, not potentially so with something like HIV.
I hope you thought really hard about your stance that using drugs should be a crime. Because one of the better solutions to this program would be to decriminalize these drugs. It would stop pushing addicts underground to get their fix, farther away from support systems that can help them cope with their problems.
benjipwns
Banned
umop_3pisdn
Member
Do you have any concept of how health and social costs work? Prevention would be a thousand times more morally and economically effective than just turning a blind eye.
The only reason drug use being a crime is relevant to this discussion is if you're concerned with legalism over doing the right thing or even the sensible thing. Not a good platform to stand on.
You must have missed the word 'regulated' in there.
There's an article that my friend and former drug user wrote that I wish I could post here, but he's trying to get it published like on Vice or somewhere, I'll post it whenever it's published, it's really really good. But the gist is that these should be available at pharmacies without prescription. It's the best solution for all parties except those that desperately want control over everyone else.
I don't know if this is true this day in age.
My older Brother is HIV positive and outside of a pill he takes at night it has no effect you can tell from the outside. Hard drug users on heroin and opiates have much worse outward signs than I have ever seen from him since he has been on medication.
Coriolanus
Banned
Your whole premisse is incorrect. In order to get introduced to heroin, all you have to do is take pain meds. Seedy characters known as "doctors" prescribe those. Prescription opioid abuse is very common.
I'd rather have it accessible to anyone of age that walks into a a pharmacy, than have it accessible to anyone that goes into a back alley in some seedy neighborhood, which is the current system. The point is to minimize harm, increase safety and to reduce money outflow into the pockets of traffickers.
In his context, you're adding AIDS and the other stuff to a heroin junkie, so yeah, it'd be worse overall. Just take your idea of a heavy heroin user, sprinkle some AIDS on top, and that's his "far, far worse".
Straight HIV nowadays? Probably still more expensive than a needle swap program.
benjipwns
Banned
Yeah, but your way doesn't increase the amount of violence and danger because of lack of access to the "legitimate" justice system. Or the safety of companies being held accountable for their drug quality.
I put legitimate in quotes just for you.
Battersea Power Station
Member
I think it's just frustrating because these are public policies that have been illustrated again and again to make sense and to be beneficial for everybody -- drug addicts and regular citizens. It's like, how can we make progress as a society when we already see and decide that something makes sense, works, makes society better, and then people still don't want to support it? We just keep repeating history over and over and over and over.
This is why I love GAF so much sometimes. For every person who has idiotic thoughts like this guy, there are ten people to put him in his place.
Locking people up for drug use has never stopped the drug addiction problem. Once an addict gets out of prison, what do you think he or she is going to turn to?
FutureZombie
Banned
Needle exchange programs really sum up the Democrat's agenda.
1) Find a group of people who have put themselves in a bad spot based on stupid decisions.
2) Claim the group are victims.
3) Take money from people who are responsible.
4) Give money to people who are irresponsible.
5) When someone disagrees with the policy, call them names.
This one's got it all!
1) Find a group of people who have put themselves in a bad spot based on stupid decisions.
2) Claim the group are victims.
3) Take money from people who are responsible.
4) Give money to people who are irresponsible.
5) When someone disagrees with the policy, call them names.
This one's got it all!
Clean needle programs are all about harm reduction (the same way that handing out free condoms to teens is). Sometimes, you have to accept that people are going to engage in risky/dangerous behavior, and while working on solving the greater issues that cause people to behave in that way, you provide some way to minimize the amount of damage that behavior causes. It's just a common sense thing to do.
Sadly, it means treating people like humans and not animals to be tossed in jail. Conservatives have a long track record of doing the latter, since it plays into their strong belief in retribution over rehabilitation. Of course, they're wrong (as always), hence the massively higher teen pregnancy rates in the states they run, and now the increased incidence of HIV in red states too.
I'm sure that Jesus would have loved to toss all these people in jail. I mean, Republicans love their Jesus and all, yet strangely don't actually listen to what he preached for some reason. Also, you sure seem to have the 'I've got mine, F U' conservative philosophy down pat - the same philosophy that has consistently put states run by them in last place in nearly every measure of societal progress.
Sadly, it means treating people like humans and not animals to be tossed in jail. Conservatives have a long track record of doing the latter, since it plays into their strong belief in retribution over rehabilitation. Of course, they're wrong (as always), hence the massively higher teen pregnancy rates in the states they run, and now the increased incidence of HIV in red states too.
I'm sure that Jesus would have loved to toss all these people in jail. I mean, Republicans love their Jesus and all, yet strangely don't actually listen to what he preached for some reason. Also, you sure seem to have the 'I've got mine, F U' conservative philosophy down pat - the same philosophy that has consistently put states run by them in last place in nearly every measure of societal progress.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
Apparently it's kryptonite to republican critical thinking skills, too.
Do you actually feel this way, or do you just like arguing ?
Instead of having heroin available in select areas, essentially hidden and difficult to obtain for people not deep into the drug scene, it's better to have it in every city on store shelves next to the cigarettes ? I can't even.
Also, lol at back alley in a seedy neighborhood. Aside from TV shows, I don't think that's how the current system works.
There's definitely some truth to this, but a needle exchange doesn't fall into this category for me. It's really the least that can be done to prevent these addicts from spreading HIV. The less people with HIV, the safer it is for everyone.
Coriolanus
Banned
How do you think the current system works?
Wait.
You legit believe that it's hidden and difficult?
Here, let us engage in a theoretical exercise: if you tried to acquire heroin (and for some reason not through the prescription route, obv), how would you go on about it?
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