Hollow Knight: Silksong |OT| It’s SHAW-time!!!!

being an old sucks. I have so little time to game these days between work / parenting / time with family and friends etc. My backlog of games just from the last 2 months alone has grown massively and the months ahead has even more to add to the pile.

The urge to just go full anti-social son of a bitch and binge is strong but I just cant get away with it anymore. :(
 
Steam discussions have some quality topics.

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I played soccer with my kids all afternoon outside to wear them out. They're sleeping now. The evening is officially free for this momentous occasion. I hope everyone enjoys the game!
 
Moonjt9 said:
I played soccer with my kids all afternoon outside to wear them out. They're sleeping now. The evening is officially free for this momentous occasion. I hope everyone enjoys the game!
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I'm 3rd in line for my Xbox
My 4 year old and 9 year old ahead of me
I don't know how I'll manage to get some time for silksong but I have to figure a plan out
 
BigLee74 said:
Got a wee but into the first one, left it for a week, came back and had no clue where I was or what I was doing. Was certainly not a game for the faint-hearted.

Ori was far better IMO.

Will try this, but would like to see it being a bit more friendly out the box. Like a decent map you could follow as you enter new areas without jumping through hoops.
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Hollow Knight is infamous for having shitty player guidance, half the people who played it got lost and stopped half-way through. Silksong hopefully fixes this.
 
Damn been playing a bit of HK 1 just to not be a total noob in the new one and yeah its damn good. Made it to the fight with Hornet seems fitting stopping here and continue with Silksong.
I still am undecided where to buy, wanting to play something on the Switch 2 but that oled on the deck is just made for the game.
 
The only time I remember getting lost in Hollow knight was early on you find one of those black waterfall barrier things and I didn't get the ability to get through them or see any more for hours so I'd forgotten where it was. A pin to say come back here later would have solved that.
 
The Cockatrice said:
How the fuck do you get lost in a 2D world buddy? Also its not infamous for anything. Lack of direction isnt something new.
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You get lost in a 2D just as you get lost in a 3D world, buddy, if a path is poorly shown you end up searching for it, and since Hollow Knight is so slow, you can end up searching for hours. Which Hollow Knight is infamous for.
 
TintoConCasera said:
It's not "shitty guidance", it's lack of handholding, which is a good thing.
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Can't imagine many playing the NES Metroid today. No Map and Password saves only. Even in my short time with HK the map is easy to understand and if need be you have a charm to give you your location and the map without it is more immersive. Like looking at a real map.

Some are lost without the magic guiding triangle or glowing dot.
 
kpopSuperstar said:
You get lost in a 2D just as you get lost in a 3D world, buddy, if a path is poorly shown you end up searching for it, and since Hollow Knight is so slow, you can end up searching for hours. Which Hollow Knight is infamous for.
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You having poor sense of direction does not equal game lacking direction. Its impossible to get lost unless your memory is of a toddler and you can't remember what place you haven't explored a few minutes ago. You can also buy markers, buy maps, etc. If you need a big arrow showing you where to go, there are other games to play.
 
MagiusNecros said:
Can't imagine many playing the NES Metroid today. No Map and Password saves only. Even in my short time with HK the map is easy to understand and if need be you have a charm to give you your location and the map without it is more immersive. Like looking at a real map.

Some are lost without the magic guiding triangle or glowing dot.
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NES games are a perfect example of poor design in a lot of instances. A lot of games were built with strategy guides in mind, missable secrets with no real indication of how to get them, trial and error design not based on intelligent signposting but rather on brute force.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to personal preference. I personally hate things like excessive yellow paint, dialogue telling me what to do super fast, etc. But I also have limited patience for things that seem like poor design that just waste my time. If the way to solve the content is just brute force wandering around without rhyme or reason it can feel like a waste of time to just walk around the whole map 2 or 3 times until you notice the thing. There are games that I like that do this that I enjoy, and games where I feel they missed the mark - and the difference is often extremely subtle queues.

Personally, I thought a game like Metroid Dread was nearly perfect. It gives me the sensation of wandering a large map, deducing where to go next, finding multiple secrets constantly or advanced platforming challenges, but it gates off areas where you might be just wasting giant chunks of time wandering whole huge sections that have nothing in it to progress. I see people on here criticize Dread for that and call it too much handholding, but I thought it was extremely intelligent and modern design that keeps you moving forward with all the feel of a deep exploration game but without hours of dull wasted content. It comes down to preference and everyone's at a different sweet spot on the spectrum from zero handholding to full handholding.
 
BigLee74 said:
It really isn't. It might feel more rewarding for those that persevere, but it can't hurt to help a little bit. Like a good map. I might have stuck around a bit longer if it was easier to get into.
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I get what you mean. But bear in mind that making a game more appealing to more people could also mean making it less appealing to those that already like it, which is the people that enjoy getting lost and drawing mental maps.

kpopSuperstar said:
There is a limit to what constitutes handholding and what is just poor direction, Hollow Knight is made by rookies, which is why people get lost. Some of the areas in the game just ain't that well made.
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Nah. The map is well made and whenever I felt I was lost (which wasn't that often) it was my fault for rushing or playing without paying attention. There's landmarks, each area has a disntinct vibe to it and you really only need to draw that mental map until you reach the next bench. It's not that hard.

MagiusNecros said:
Can't imagine many playing the NES Metroid today. No Map and Password saves only. Even in my short time with HK the map is easy to understand and if need be you have a charm to give you your location and the map without it is more immersive. Like looking at a real map.

Some are lost without the magic guiding triangle or glowing dot.
Click to expand...
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Punished Miku said:
NES games are a perfect example of poor design in a lot of instances. A lot of games were built with strategy guides in mind, missable secrets with no real indication of how to get them, trial and error design not based on intelligent signposting but rather on brute force.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to personal preference. I personally hate things like excessive yellow paint, dialogue telling me what to do super fast, etc. But I also have limited patience for things that seem like poor design that just waste my time. If the way to solve the content is just brute force wandering around without rhyme or reason it can feel like a waste of time to just walk around the whole map 2 or 3 times until you notice the thing. There are games that I like that do this that I enjoy, and games where I feel they missed the mark - and the difference is often extremely subtle queues.

Personally, I thought a game like Metroid Dread was nearly perfect. It gives me the sensation of wandering a large map, deducing where to go next, finding multiple secrets constantly or advanced platforming challenges, but it gates off areas where you might be just wasting giant chunks of time wandering whole huge sections that have nothing in it to progress. I see people on here criticize Dread for that and call it too much handholding, but I thought it was extremely intelligent and modern design that keeps you moving forward with all the feel of a deep exploration game but without hours of dull wasted content. It comes down to preference and everyone's at a different sweet spot on the spectrum from zero handholding to full handholding.
Click to expand...
Only thing mildly bad about Metroid Dread is EMMI sections since it breaks up the pace(it does add tension!) but also brings the question of if most tech can do fuck all to them why aren't they mass deployed within the Galactic Federation as a frontline force?

TintoConCasera TintoConCasera Damn I knew Silksong was a Mobile Souls game this whole time.
 
MagiusNecros said:
Only thing mildly bad about Metroid Dread is EMMI sections since it breaks up the pace(it does add tension!) but also brings the question of if most tech can do fuck all to them why aren't they mass deployed within the Galactic Federation as a frontline force?

TintoConCasera TintoConCasera Damn I knew Silksong was a Mobile Souls game this whole time.
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I thought the EMMI stuff was great. But yeah, my point is that this is how thin the line is. With Hollow Knight you think it's fine and are defending the lack of signposting. With Dread, there are lots of people that trash it and say it's too much handholding and you'd be on the other side. It's usually a very slim line that determines whether the signposting is successful in guiding you and making the levels and progression make sense, but while hiding that they are signposting so you feel the joy of discovery.
 
TintoConCasera said:
I get what you mean. But bear in mind that making a game more appealing to more people could also mean making it less appealing to those that already like it, which is the people that enjoy getting lost and drawing mental maps.


Nah. The map is well made and whenever I felt I was lost (which wasn't that often) it was my fault for rushing or playing without paying attention. There's landmarks, each area has a disntinct vibe to it and you really only need to draw that mental map until you reach the next bench. It's not that hard.
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It's not about being hard. There are 2-3 places in the game that lacks basic direction. Do you know how many got lost in this game? it's a lot of damn people. It's not the end of the world, the game is still great, but we don't need to overpraise everything.
 
It's crazy that the game's release was announced good 2 weeks ago. People were waiting for it so long and now it's suddenly here.
 
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kpopSuperstar said:
Do you know how many got lost in this game?
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Do you know how many didn't?

Again, videogames should not appeal to everybody. Part of the appeal of HK is getting lost and figuring the way on your own. Not all games need a clear map and directions, there are many like that already.
 
Punished Miku said:
I thought the EMMI stuff was great. But yeah, my point is that this is how thin the line is. With Hollow Knight you think it's fine and are defending the lack of signposting. With Dread, there are lots of people that trash it and say it's too much handholding and you'd be on the other side. It's usually a very slim line that determines whether the signposting is successful in guiding you and making the levels and progression make sense, but while hiding that they are signposting so you feel the joy of discovery.
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They probably shouldn't be knocking Dread for handholding when Fusion and notably Other M were much worse. Fusion not so much but definitely Other M.

For me though EMMI's were confined to their own areas and the fear factor would be much more elevated if they were the non-scripted portions of the SA-X from Fusion. That stuff was fear inducing even if just from the haunting footsteps.

I think part of HK's design is that Hallownest is a largely derelict city and what you see is all that remains and you rely on your map and subtle clues in it's environment to figure out where to go.

Though I can see where the frustration might lie in a sense of direction. Other well crafted indies like Selaco use color schemes to point the way forward like green lights meaning progression and red lights meaning something is inaccessible.

But I think a game has a bit more longevity when you figure things out yourself instead of being told to make two rights and a left. After all it's about the journey not the destination.
 
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The Cockatrice said:
You having poor sense of direction does not equal game lacking direction. Its impossible to get lost unless your memory is of a toddler and you can't remember what place you haven't explored a few minutes ago. You can also buy markers, buy maps, etc. If you need a big arrow showing you where to go, there are other games to play.
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Stop being such a fanboy, just because you love the game doesn't mean you have to go into full defensive crybaby mode.

This is like when fanboys of Daggerfall says that all new RPGs are for pussies and if you don't agree you are a pussy that need "handholding and easy games for pussies".

You just need to look at the internet for a little while and you will see how many got lost in this. And it's not because "everyone is a pussy with toddler memory", it's because it's easy to get lost and you have to spend too much time traversing the long map with a slow character.
 
TintoConCasera said:
Do you know how many didn't?

Again, videogames should not appeal to everybody. Part of the appeal of HK is getting lost and figuring the way on your own. Not all games need a clear map and directions, there are many like that already.
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Most of the game is fine to progress. The game is not trying to be some maze.

This is more of a situation where you play a great game that suddenly has some boss or area that suck.
 
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