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[Drensch]

Damn. Nightline was pretty good tonight.
Very interesting stuff regarding the so called Swift boats.

 

[=W=]

details plz

 

[Diablos]

They ain't too "swift" if you ask me.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

this is the show that airs right before Jimmy Kimmel's disaster of a talk show, right?

 

[Drensch]

this is the show that airs right before Jimmy Kimmel's disaster of a talk show, right?

Yes.


Basically nightline went to vietnam and interviewed a bunch of Vietnamese who were witnessess at the incident of Kerry's Silver Star. They basically confirmed(your basic eye witness discrepancies were there-exact details and what not fuzzy) the Us Navy and Kerry's documentation.

Nightline also found that a swiftboat vet went to Vietnam trying to get the Vietnamese to bs a story up about Kerry. O'Neil came on with his basic "John Kerry is the antichrist" shit that Koppel owned him on. He showed how none was true. O'Neil kept trying to push his books and ignore the questions, asked. Koppel didn't let him off shit and kept going back at him about the swiftboat guys trying to get Vietnamese to tell stories about Kerry, kept asking about the facts and kept on O'Neil's Bs in general. Then after O'Neil kept stonewalling on questions and repeating plugs for his book-Koppel told him he had to go.

FYI My description kinda sucks you really should watch it if you can.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

cool, i'll have to tune in to that.

 

[videogamer]

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/Vote2004/story?id=166434&page=1

 

[LinesInTheSand]

Jimmy Kimmel rocks.

 

[videogamer]

hmmm... the Freepers say otherwise.

"Koppel was killed! O'Neil was unbelievable! The gauntlet has been thrown down. That was one of the most classic and hisotrical confrontations...Koppel was flustered, upset and stripped bare and it was extremely painful for hi...you could see him grimace as they went to a commercial...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1245606/posts

 

[explodet]

hmmm... the Freepers say otherwise.

Surprise, surprise surprise!

 

[Ripclawe]

Problem with the Nightline report is it goes against what John Kerry said to the Boston Globe which contradicts what the citation for the silver star says and what the swift boat vets are saying he lied about based on the Boston Globe report.

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml

it also differs from The Tour of Duty biography which is about the same as the Boston Globe account. Considering that is what the swift vets are disputing are Kerry's own interview, Nightline just owned Kerry.

This part is not true.
http://www.abcnews.go.com/Nightline/print?id=166434

None of the villagers seems to be able to say for a fact that they saw an American chase the man who fired the B-40 into the woods and shoot him. Nobody seems to remember that. But they have no problem remembering Ba Thang, the man who has been dismissed by Kerry's detractors as "a lone, wounded, fleeing, young Vietcong in a loincloth." (The description comes from "Unfit for Command," by Swift boat veteran John O'Neill.)

The description comes from the Boston Globe piece with Kerry.

Beach the boat, Kerry ordered, and the craft's bow was quickly rammed upon the shoreline. Out of the bush appeared a teenager in a loin cloth, clutching a grenade launcher.

In an interview, Kerry added a chilling detail.

"This guy could have dispatched us in a second, but for ... I'll never be able to explain, we were literally face to face, he with his B-40 rocket and us in our boat, and he didn't pull the trigger. I would not be here today talking to you if he had," Kerry recalled. "And Tommy clipped him, and he started going [down.] I thought it was over."

Instead, the guerrilla got up and started running. "We've got to get him, make sure he doesn't get behind the hut, and then we're in trouble," Kerry recalled.

Of course he gets owned by the villagers(if you believe them)

Kerry's citation says he "uncovered an enemy rest and supply area, which was destroyed," but according to the villagers, the Americans missed the military supplies. In fact, Vo Ti Vi said, just a few weeks after the attack, the Viet Cong raided a U.S. base stealing weapons and ammunition. The weapons remain in Nha Vi all these years later, she says, buried under her garden.

But lets just leave all that for events happening a long time ago.


This is the part that is making LOL

The Vietnamese government initially rejected Nightline's request to visit the village, saying they did not want to somehow influence the U.S. presidential election. Once Nightline explained that the intention was to simply find out what the Vietnamese people remember and think of what happened there, permission was granted.

Now considering Kerry is considering a best friend of the Vietnamese Government for his work in stopping human rights bill aimed at Vietnam over the objections of almost everyone(just an example)

I find it hilarious that to try and disprove the swift vets, Nightline sends a team to Vietnam and takes the words of villagers, some who are V.C. to begin with to try and help Kerry. Its not like the ABC crew didn't have handlers following them and make sure the villagers kept themselves in line either.

Ted's "why would the villagers lie to us?" was funny though. Kerry is known in Vietnam, the government will help all it can.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Problem with the Nightline report is it goes against what John Kerry said to the Boston Globe which contradicts what the citation for the silver star says and what the swift boat vets are saying he lied about based on the Boston Globe report.

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml

it also differs from The Tour of Duty biography which is about the same as the Boston Globe account. Considering that is what the swift vets are disputing are Kerry's own interview, Nightline just owned Kerry.

This part is not true.
http://www.abcnews.go.com/Nightline/print?id=166434


The description comes from the Boston Globe piece with Kerry.

So what you've noted is a discrepancy in purported clothing... whereas the SBVFT's main complaint seems to be that dispatching a lone wounded man is not worthy of a Silver Star... a claim denied by those present, and not just the villagers.

John O'Neill, author of a highly critical account of Kerry's Vietnam service, describes the man Kerry chased as a “teenager” in a “loincloth.” I have no idea how old the gunner Kerry chased that day was, but both Leeds and I recall that he was a grown man, dressed in the kind of garb the VC usually wore.

The man Kerry chased was not the “lone” attacker at that site, as O'Neill suggests. There were others who fled. There was also firing from the tree line well behind the spider holes and at one point, from the opposite riverbank as well. It was not the work of just one attacker.

 

[Ripclawe]

So what you've noted is a discrepancy in purported clothing... whereas the SBVFT's main complaint seems to be that dispatching a lone wounded man is not worthy of a Silver Star... a claim denied by those present, and not just the villagers.

The silver star award is based on Kerry charging into "numerically superior force, and into intense fire", swift vets say thats bunk and between Kerry's version, their version and now we have former Viet Congs version, at best the situation is even worse off than before.

 

[StoOgE]

I have a hard time listening to any group of people that are going to tell me that a man went to vietnam for the purpose of lying to get medals he didnt deserve just so that he could leave early and run for political office later... especially considering none of these people seemed to speak up about this until Kerry is running for president and their desrciptions of his charachter run contrary to what they said at the time...

not to mention official documents supporting Kerry's position, other members of Kerry's crew supporting his position, and the Vietnamese descrpition of the events more or less falling in line with Kerry's description (are there discrepencies? Sure, but they are saying far more than a man in a loincloth was running away).. and to top that off these same people went to Vietnam to attempt to get the people there to change their story about what happened.

Yeah, I am really going to give what they say alot of credence.

 

[mightynine]

All this is really doing to taking away some of the prestige of earning a service medal in the first place.

Or showing that these medals really don't mean much after all.

Or that they're way to easy to earn, based on how the requirements are written.

I can't decide which yet.

All I know is that I could give a flying rat's ass about the whole deal at this point.

 

[Zaptruder]

Anyway you dice it, it's still much better than some guy that decided to go AWOL during his call of duty.

 

[happyfunball]

I can't believe some people are so blindly retarded.....how this doesn't back up Kerry's claim is beyond me. It tells a story about a huge firefight with a numerically superior force(swift boats dont have 12 people on board and thats not counting the villagers that also fought) and a grown man with a grenade launcher that got killed by an american. Sounds VERY similar to Kerry's and the military's story.

 

[Tortfeasor]

I watched it last night. O'Neil came across as a deperate wacko and Koppel seemed frustrated by his idocy. Koppel kept interrupting O'Neil to tell him to answer his questions and to stop shoving his book into the camera because nobody could read it anyways.

O'Neil came across like one of those guys who used to be on that overnight radio program that originted from the Nevada desert... Completly insane.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

i don't know if he got torn a new ass, but O'Neil looked like the biggest nerd in the world the way he kept pulling out all those books with all the sticky notes in them and shit. Seriously, is this guy secretly in love with John Kerry or something? Get off the man's nutsack already.

 

[Incognito]

john o neill has had a grudge agaisnt john kerry SINCE VIETNAM itself. he's in the oval office with NIXON and nixon is telling him to keep hitting him hard, don't let kerry off, etc.

it's DISGUSTING the lengths at which these swift boats for "truths" will go to demonize a man running for president. and if you don't think this group has anythign to do with bush and rove, then you're a fucking idiot.

it's a repeat of 2000, and this is rove's MO.

 

[Banjo Tango]

Ted's "why would the villagers lie to us?" was funny though. Kerry is known in Vietnam, the government will help all it can.

Soo... the Vietnamese accounts can be completely written off because they've supposedly been coerced by a government favorable towards Kerry, and because there are minor discrepencies in a traumatising battle that took place over 30 years ago.

BUT... we can take the Swift Boat Vets' words as truth, even though most of them weren't even there, a few have even completely changed their stance on Kerry, they are tied to the Republican party, they have an axe to grind, and when pressed, their fearless leader resorts to stonewalling and plugging his book.

Got it.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

The silver star award is based on Kerry charging into "numerically superior force, and into intense fire", swift vets say thats bunk and between Kerry's version, their version and now we have former Viet Congs version, at best the situation is even worse off than before.

Who make these claims, though, and why are they more believable? The villagers and the only other surviving officer side with the official story.

 

[ConfusingJazz]

Does anybody have video of the interview?

 

[Ripclawe]

Soo... the Vietnamese accounts can be completely written off because they've supposedly been coerced by a government favorable towards Kerry, and because there are minor discrepencies in a traumatising battle that took place over 30 years ago.

Kerry's version of the event as cited in the Boston Globe differs greatly from the official reports that the citations are based on. In this particular event, that is what the swiftvets are pointing out. Now you have the villagers, former viet congs, whose own version differs from Kerry and the citations.

That's all. This particular incident doesn't cause me much concern, since the only controversy is did Kerry hype up the events in after action reports. But to say it debunked the swiftvets is laughable.

 

[happyfunball]

From what I remember, the "Swifties" said that Kerry ran ashore and killed a child in a loin cloth carrying a grenade launcher with no fire from the shore.

So how does a story which tells of an intense firefight and a grown man dressed in all black with a rocket launcher by Kerry and the Vietnamese NOT debunk the "Swifties" story?

 

[Ripclawe]

From what I remember, the "Swifties" said that Kerry ran ashore and killed a child in a loin cloth carrying a grenade launcher with no fire from the shore.

So how does a story which tells of an intense firefight and a grown man dressed in all black with a rocket launcher by Kerry and the Vietnamese NOT debunk the "Swifties" story?

Kerry said he ran ashore and killed a Teenager in a loin cloth carrying a grenade launcher, the swiftvets are saying that differs from the citations, so Nightline is in its bumbling ways is saying take the word of our interviews with these villagers, some former Viet congs, over the word of John Kerry.

Okay then.

 

[Go Go Ackman!]

What does it matter, republicans will continue trump up bullshit in order to damage kerry's character, ignoring the fact that their guy in the whitehouse is a braindead criminal. And naturally the american voting public will remain stupid as ever.

 

[Banjo Tango]

Kerry said he ran ashore and killed a Teenager in a loin cloth carrying a grenade launcher, the swiftvets are saying that differs from the citations, so Nightline is in its bumbling ways is saying take the word of our interviews with these villagers, some former Viet congs, over the word of John Kerry.

Okay then.

Where does Kerry talk about this incident? And I still don't get what it is about this incident that the Swift Boat Vets are trying to pin on him.... that he didn't kill a teenager? That he did? That there was heavy fire? That there wasn't?

And you're saying this...

the man who has been dismissed by Kerry's detractors as "a lone, wounded, fleeing, young Vietcong in a loincloth." (The description comes from "Unfit for Command," by Swift boat veteran John O'Neill.)

...is inaccurate? (Edit - I meant that the quote is inaccurately attributed to John O'Neill, not whether or not you think the substance of the quote is accurate)

Edit again - OK, reading through your responses again...
- The swiftvets are saying that Kerry claimed , in this incident, to have killed a lone teenager in a loincloth
- The swiftvets say this is accurate
- According to the official reports and Nightline's interviews, it was actually an intense firefight

Is this right?

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Kerry said he ran ashore and killed a Teenager in a loin cloth carrying a grenade launcher, the swiftvets are saying that differs from the citations

For reference, I looked up the citation.

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnkerry.com/ker_silv_star.htm

Vietnam Veterans Against John Kerry

Source: Tour of Duty by, Douglas Brinkley

Kerry's Silver Star Citation

For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity in action while serving with Coastal Division ELEVEN engaged in armed conflict with Viet Cong insurgents in An Xuyen Provence, Republic of Vietnam on 28 February, 1969. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY was serving as Officer in Charge of Patrol Craft Fast 94 and Officer in Tactical Command of a three boat mission. As the force approached the target area on the narrow Dong Chung River, all units came under intense automatic weapons and small arms fire from an entrenched enemy force less that fifty-feet away. Unhesitatingly Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY ordered his boat to attack as all units opened fire and beached directly in front of the enemy ambushers this daring and courageous tactic surprised the enemy and succeeded in routing a score of enemy soldiers. The PCF gunners captured many enemy weapons in the battle that followed. On a request from U.S. Army advisors ashore, Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY ordered PCF's 94 and 23 further up river to suppress enemy sniper fire. After proceeding approximately eight hundred yards, the boats were again taken under fire from a heavily foliated area and B-40 rocket exploded close aboard PCF 94: with utter disregard for his own safety and the enemy rockets, he again ordered a charge on the enemy, beached his boat only ten feet from the VC rocket position, and personally led a landing party ashore in pursuit of the enemy. Upon sweeping the area an immediate search uncovered an enemy rest and supply area which was destroyed. The extra ordinary daring and personal courage of Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY in attacking a numerically superior force in the face of intense fire were responsible for the highly successful mission. His actions were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service.

Several days after the February 28, 1969 action, Kerry was flown to An Thoi, South Vietnam, where Vice Admiral Elmo R. Zumwalt, Jr., pinned the Silver Star on Kerry's chest.

"In addition to Kerry's Silver Star PCF-94's performance on February 28 also earned Bronze Stars for Tommy Belodeau and Mike Medeiros and Navy Commendation Medals with Combat V Devices for Del Sandusky, Fred Short, and Gene Thorson." - Douglas Brinkley

 

[DougReese]

I know the election is over, but as I was searching for something, I came across this message board, and this discussion in particular.

Not being too sure if anyone is listening/reading at this point, or if anyone cares . . . I'd like to toss out a few comments for now. I suppose if anyone reads them I'll know soon enough.

1. The citation posted is for Kerry's Silver Star, but was written years later. The one written at the time the award was given, is detailed, and quite accurate. I have no idea what the story is on the later citation (there were actually three, all together).

2. In that citation posted here, you will see "On a request from U.S. Army advisors ashore, Lieutenant Kerry . . . . . " . . . there were three Army advisors ashore. I am one of them.

3. The after action report, from which the original citation is based, is also detailed and accurate. There is no mention of a teenager, and certainly no mention of a "kid", as that's just Swift Boat Veterans for "truth" spin. There is no mention of shooting anyone in the back. There is no mention of there being "just one enemy soldier" . . more SBV"t" spin.

4. The villagers Nightline spoke to were the real deal. They pretty much spoke the truth. I went back myself in August (for those of you who watched, I'm the guy mentioned by one of the villagers, although he was embellishing a bit) and spoke to two survivors of that incident.

5. The two I spoke to in March weren't on camera with Nightline, as Nightline used that later citation (poor research), and thought that there were two separate incidents, 800-1,000 yards or so apart. I have no idea why the 800 yards is in the citation -- it's closer to 80 yards -- so maybe it's a typo. If you read the citation closely, it doesn't make sense, unless we (advisors) had ESP.

6. Oh, and Swift Boat Veterans for "truth", that massive organization comprised of just about every guy who ever set foot on a Swift Boat in Vietnam . . . . . how many of their members were present among the approximately 25 guys who were present for that Feb 28, 1969 incident?

One. Yes, just one, and he supports Kerry getting the Silver Star.

Needless to say, that's not in Unfit for Command.

Doug

 

[Teddman]

Wow, never would expect someone with actual first-hand knowledge to enter a thread like this at Gaming-Age and clear the air. I only wish you were around two months ago!

 

[Templar Wizard]

wow, only in Gaming-Age off topic.
nice post and welcome.

 

[Mandark]

Thanks for stopping by our corner of the net, Mr. Reese. A bit of unexpected sanity is always welcome.

 

[Socreges]

In other news, Swift Boat Veterans for Scandal by Doug Reese hits bookstores nation-wide tomorrow!



ps. inside joke. never mind me. in all honesty, thanks for the post

 

[Late Stage Marxist]

Thanks for clearing that up! Oh, and welcome to gaming-age!

 

[iapetus]

Oh, and prepare for ad hominem attacks from Ripclawe in 5...

 

[Chipopo]

If Ripclawe attempts to dismantle this guy then I will be in utter disbelief....!!!!



...who am I kidding, Ripclawe jumped that shark months ago...

 

[Templar Wizard]

:lol

 

[Ripclawe]

1. The citation posted is for Kerry's Silver Star, but was written years later. The one written at the time the award was given, is detailed, and quite accurate. I have no idea what the story is on the later citation (there were actually three, all together).

Well that's still a mystery since 3 different versions of the citations have been issued over the same incident, the last on signed by John Lehman who doesn't even know how his name got on there or who ordered the correction.


http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-lips28.html

Former Navy Secretary John Lehman has no idea where a Silver Star citation displayed on Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry's campaign Web site came from, he said Friday. The citation appears over Lehman's signature.

"It is a total mystery to me. I never saw it. I never signed it. I never approved it. And the additional language it contains was not written by me," he said.

The additional language varied from the two previous citations, signed first by Adm. Elmo Zumwalt and then Adm. John Hyland, which themselves differ. The new material added in the Lehman citation reads in part: "By his brave actions, bold initiative, and unwavering devotion to duty, Lieutenant (jg) Kerry reflected great credit upon himself...."

Asked how the citation could have been executed over his signature without his knowledge, Lehman said: "I have no idea. I can only imagine they were signed by an autopen." The autopen is a device often used in the routine execution of executive documents in government.

3. The after action report, from which the original citation is based, is also detailed and accurate. There is no mention of a teenager, and certainly no mention of a "kid", as that's just Swift Boat Veterans for "truth" spin. There is no mention of shooting anyone in the back. There is no mention of there being "just one enemy soldier" . . more SBV"t" spin.

The Swift boat vets in regards to the silver star incident just cited what John Kerry said himself, There is no denying that an incident occurred, but does it deserve a silver star and did Kerry hype up the incident was all they were saying.


http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml

Ambush in the Mekong Delta

This exhausting and harrowing week was only the beginning for Kerry. On Feb. 28, 1969, Kerry's boat received word that a swift boat was being ambushed. As Kerry raced to the scene, his boat became another target, as a Viet Cong B-40 rocket blast shattered a window. Kerry could have ordered his crew to hit the enemy and run. But the skipper had a more aggressive reaction in mind. Beach the boat, Kerry ordered, and the craft's bow was quickly rammed upon the shoreline. Out of the bush appeared a teenager in a loin cloth, clutching a grenade launcher.

An enemy was just feet away, holding a weapon with enough firepower to blow up the boat. Kerry's forward gunner, Belodeau, shot and clipped the Viet Cong in the leg. Then Belodeau's gun jammed, according to other crewmates (Belodeau died in 1997). Medeiros tried to fire at the Viet Cong, but he couldn't get a shot off.

In an interview, Kerry added a chilling detail.

"This guy could have dispatched us in a second, but for ... I'll never be able to explain, we were literally face to face, he with his B-40 rocket and us in our boat, and he didn't pull the trigger. I would not be here today talking to you if he had," Kerry recalled. "And Tommy clipped him, and he started going [down.] I thought it was over."

Instead, the guerrilla got up and started running. "We've got to get him, make sure he doesn't get behind the hut, and then we're in trouble," Kerry recalled.

So Kerry shot and killed the guerrilla. "I don't have a second's question about that, nor does anybody who was with me," he said. "He was running away with a live B-40, and, I thought, poised to turn around and fire it." Asked whether that meant Kerry shot the guerrilla in the back, Kerry said, "No, absolutely not. He was hurt, other guys were shooting from back, side, back. There is no, there is not a scintilla of question in any person's mind who was there [that] this guy was dangerous, he was a combatant, he had an armed weapon."

 

[Ripclawe]

Haha how crazy, you are now actually debating this with someone involved. Just stop.

What debate?

Swift boat cites John Kerry from his Boston Globe bio
Nightline refuted Kerry's version and Doug Reese said it was wrong(via Kevin Drum of the Washington Monthly)
which was my original point that Nightline story made Kerry and others look like liars. It was a badly researched story.

The Silver Star was never a big point of interest other than the versions of the story kept changing which is all the swift boat vets pointed out.

 

[DarienA]

Dependable Rip....

 

[explodet]

http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4047

BOSTON—Swift Boat Veterans For Truth, a group that gained national prominence in the months before the 2004 election, announced Monday that it will continue its campaign "to set the record straight about John Kerry."

"We've made great progress in spreading the truth about John Kerry's treasonous past, but our job isn't over just because he lost the presidency," said John O'Neill, founding member of the Swift Vets and author of Unfit For The Community, a new book arguing that Kerry's Vietnam service record indicates that he would make a dangerous neighbor. "John Kerry is a threat to every American he comes in contact with, whether he's running for president, getting his oil changed, or going to a movie with his wife."

 

[DarienA]

Ummm... The Onion... parody... hello? McFly?

DAMN you Evil you deleted your post! NO FAIR!

 

[EviLore]

Haha, funny that it took me a moment to realize that it was an Onion link. Their positions have been so ridiculous that I didn't second guess the quote at all ;b

 

[Ripclawe]

Dependable Rip....

I have no problem with Reese, he is a Kerry supporter who defended him, but let's keep the facts straight on the silver star story and why it was cited in the first place. Nightline picked on this particular angle because it was the least contentious of the incidents and they still screwed it up.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

What debate?

Swift boat cites John Kerry from his Boston Globe bio
Nightline refuted Kerry's version and Doug Reese said it was wrong(via Kevin Drum of the Washington Monthly)
which was my original point that Nightline story made Kerry and others look like liars. It was a badly researched story.

The Silver Star was never a big point of interest other than the versions of the story kept changing which is all the swift boat vets pointed out.

How the loincloth thing got mixed in still baffles me. But the rest seems pretty consistent. The bigger detail seems to be that O'Neill keeps talking about the "lone gunman", yet the closest witness accounts come to saying this is speaking specifically of only one enemy armed with a rocket launcher, which was the one Kerry ran down.

 

[Dilbert]

I have no problem with Reese, he is a Kerry supporter who defended him, but let's keep the facts straight on the silver star story and why it was cited in the first place. Nightline picked on this particular angle because it was the least contentious of the incidents and they still screwed it up.

You're debating the facts of what happened with someone who was actually alive at the time and involved?

I'm sorry, but you're completely fucking ridiculous.

 

[Willco]

BREAKING NEWS: RIPCLAWE IS AN IDIOT.

... I think the more important question is how in the hell did Doug Reese discover the forums and why is he posting here?

 

[Hitokage]

NeoGAF isn't under the google radar.

 

[Takuan]

:lol Caught your post before the edit, Will.

...as I was searching for something, I came across this message board, and this discussion in particular.

Clearly, Mr. Reese was searching for user feedback on Half-Life 2, Halo 2, and MGS3.