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Homeland: Season 3 - |Pledge Allegiance|

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Mononoke

Banned
So uh, why did Carrie react when she was thrown under the bus? She was home alone watching the feed on TV. If her public disgrace was all apart of this grand plan...

Am I missing something? Also lol at the Dana plot. Seriously, can you get any worse for a b-plot? This season has been kind of a dud so far for me. =/
 

NYR

Member
lol at the Dana feedback - basically telling everyone to fuck off, he's ignoring the hate and telling his story.

What a shame. Hope they learn for next season. Only thing that makes sense is they kill her off, hence the screen time and development, IMO

So uh, why did Carrie react when she was thrown under the bus? She was home alone watching the feed on TV. If her public disgrace was all apart of this grand plan...

Am I missing something? Also lol at the Dana plot. Seriously, can you get any worse for a b-plot? This season has been kind of a dud so far for me. =/
Becuase the truth hurts, especially when it comes from someone you care and respect. Not to mention it is a career killing move, the job is her life and she risked it for this chance.
 

Mononoke

Banned
lol at the Dana feedback - basically telling everyone to fuck off, he's ignoring the hate and telling his story.

What a shame. Hope they learn for next season. Only thing that makes sense is they kill her off, hence the screen time and development, IMO.

Dude is a hack. You should have read his exit interview of Season Two. He's basically the male version of Vena Sud.
 

inm8num2

Member
The reality of being outed like that, even if as part of a grand plan, would still affect her. It's kind of like when you prepare for a big moment, but when that moment arrives you're still in a state of disbelief.

edit - LOL @ that interview:

Is there any chance of Dana’s storyline intersecting with the rest of the story?
The story intersects on an emotional level.

Translation: "No."
 

Mononoke

Banned
lol at the Dana feedback - basically telling everyone to fuck off, he's ignoring the hate and telling his story.

What a shame. Hope they learn for next season. Only thing that makes sense is they kill her off, hence the screen time and development, IMO


Becuase the truth hurts, especially when it comes from someone you care and respect. Not to mention it is a career killing move, the job is her life and she risked it for this chance.

Sure, but if this was all apart of the plan, she has no reason to react the way she did? I mean..it's apart of the act?

EDIT: Okay, so you guys are saying she would react regardless if she knew that Saul and her were in on the plan. Given how bat shit crazy she is, I'll allow it. But I still found the twist to feel contrived. I dunno. Just rubbed me the wrong way.
 

inm8num2

Member
Sure, but if this was all apart of the plan, she has no reason to react the way she did? I mean..it's apart of the act?

EDIT: Okay, so you guys are saying she would react regardless if she knew that Saul and her were in on the plan. Given how bat shit crazy she is, I'll allow it. But I still found the twist to be kind of convoluted. I dunno. Just rubbed me the wrong way.

Think of it this way - if you create an elaborate plan with someone, and that plan involves getting shot in the leg, no matter how much you prepare yourself or are aware of that happening it's still going to hurt.

Now swap physical pain for emotional pain. It's a big blow, and with Carrie's history it still hurts and rings true. Planned and expected, but no less damaging.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
So yeah, it was all an elaborate long con. But man, watching this after the fact and being able to skip all the Dana parts makes it a much more watchable show.
 
Very nice twist, pretty excited for that going forward.

My gawd the stuff with Dana is truly awful on any and all levels though!
 
What really annoys me about the Dana garbage is that the writers could be filling the show with some Quinn CIA espionage action instead. His moments and that whole operation in the first episode were so good.

Dana's just a walking and talking cliché. And I do not know what the writers are smoking to make her such a central part of the show. I doubt even the focus groups like her.
 
Not surprised the Dana storyline won't tie in to the main storyline. Her storyline last season was pointless bullshit too. It's just time filler since Morena Boccarin is pregnant and they have to be very limited how they show her to hide the pregnancy. Lol Zach bringing over his killing ways from Dexter. By the way, who did this kid blow at Shotime to get on their two top rated shows at the same time? Ending was awesome as well as all the Carrie stuff. I was really intrigued to see who the man behind the group was that was trying to meet with Carrie. Giving Dana half of every fucking episode isn't helping things though.
 

RatskyWatsky

Hunky Nostradamus
"Leave it to my daughter to fall in love in the psych ward."

yass drag ha!

I thought it was a good episode, the Dana shit notwithstanding, that was otherwise sullied by the horribly contrived, nonsensical plot twist at the end.
 
Wow Dana, speeding and getting high while driving. Didn't you learn your lesson with Finn?

Thoroughly enjoyed the Carrie scenes in this episode. It was such a relief when the nurse told her to start packing. Like Carrie, even I was being driven crazy by that mental institution.
 

hamchan

Member
So when did Carrie and Saul hatch this plan? Seems a bit far fetched to think it was all from the start of the season.

Also Dana scenes suck again. Here's hoping she drives off with that guy forever, never to be seen again.
 

squidyj

Member
I suppose it's possible it was a recently hatched plan, something after Carrie's initial reaction but still that twist feels like a total betrayal of the audience to me. Furthermore it feels like a really cowardly plotline. Yay carrie's working for the CIA they're the good guys and stuff! yay! I would have LOVED to see a plotline where she really turned, mostly because of the CIAs handling of the situation, where through their action the CIA, or insert any other clandestine american agency here, really creates its own enemies, both from within and without.
 

crozier

Member
I think Dana is slowly moving towards becoming a terrorist of sorts herself. She's an outsider, shunned by the community. Despite everything, and still thinking he is responsible for the bombing, Dana is drawn towards the same activities she saw her father participating in right before the bombing (prayer, namely). She's going further and further off the deep end.

Really, all it's going to take is for something to happen to her relationship with the troubled kid, or for something to happen to him...the fugitive murderer.
 

LordCanti

Member
Finally got to watch...

What?

WHAT?!

You fuckers.

Did she think she was on tape all those times she was silently cursing Saul, reacting to Saul's testimony etc?

Show jumped the shaaaaaaaaark. It was a compelling leap though, because it took my mind until after the show (I've got the flu; cut me some slack) to work out why that twist made no sense. If I'm wrong and there weren't red herrings everywhere, I digress.

Oh and to borrow from whoever said it first:

Shut up Dana. No one cares.
 

foxtrot3d

Banned
So when did Carrie and Saul hatch this plan? Seems a bit far fetched to think it was all from the start of the season.

Also Dana scenes suck again. Here's hoping she drives off with that guy forever, never to be seen again.

I think the scheme was hatched when Saul went to visit Carrie and she said "Fuck you!" Afterwards, the episode ended and we don't know what happened before Saul left. Plus, Carrie was angry that Saul left her in the hospital. I think Saul hatched the scheme without Carrie knowing, he knew how she would react to being ratted out and played her until she ended up in the hospital. After that he finally let her in on the real plan.

Anywho, I thought the twist was kind of dumb though I never suspected for a second that Carrie would actually turn. The minute she sat down after beginning to leave the lawyer guy I knew she was playing him. However, I thought she would tell Saul and that this would get her back into his good graces and he would have her continue to play this guy undercover.

In essence, the twist was pointless other than to assure the audience that Saul really is a good guy, which IMO he never turned from that. Saul was justified in locking Carrie up considering everything she has done and continues to do. But, Carrie would never betray her country so in the end she would have always told Saul about the mystery Iranian dude and his lawyer.
 

Blader

Member
I think the scheme was hatched when Saul went to visit Carrie and she said "Fuck you!"

Had to be before that. The whole point of Saul going on tv to discredit Carrie was to sell the idea that Carrie would be pushed to the point of agreeing to meet with law firm's client.

What I'm wondering is, if Saul and the CIA know that the bombing was the work of some Iranian terrorist ring, why is Brody being scapegoated for it?
 

LordCanti

Member
Maybe they worked on a deal after the hearing?

But yeah they should make a flash back.

She could barely get out the words "Fuck you Saul" when he came to visit and I'm to believe that he clued her in on the plan at that point?

Ehhh....

Had to be before that. The whole point of Saul going on tv to discredit Carrie was to sell the idea that Carrie would be pushed to the point of agreeing to meet with law firm's client.

I guess we're inevitably going to find out that they knew about the law firm, but how they could have known that the firm could even get them a meet is sketchy at best. If that's what happened, they put a mentally unstable woman into a mental institution, nearly broke her, and just hoped for the best. Meanwhile, Darah (Dara, however you spell it) has no idea about the plan and could have just had Carrie eliminated for all Saul knew.

From the start of the season I made sure to skip all Dana and family parts, so glad it worked out.

You made the right decision.
 

sangreal

Member
I actually really liked this episode even though I saw the twist coming last week. Dana scenes were unnecessary but more tolerable than usual.
 

V_Arnold

Member
Does the NSA have a hand in writing the script? In a sane world, Saul would not EVER say something like "oh, and i wanna know how close they are to a nuclear weapon". Jeez, that line drips in propaganda. Your agency knows perfectly well how not close they are, Saul. I am sure whoever wanted that line was the one who forced last week's burka line as well.
 

LordCanti

Member
How long until Quinn realizes that she's being used by the law firm (or he'd think she was anyway) and does something stupid?
 

muddream

Banned
Had to be before that. The whole point of Saul going on tv to discredit Carrie was to sell the idea that Carrie would be pushed to the point of agreeing to meet with law firm's client.

What I'm wondering is, if Saul and the CIA know that the bombing was the work of some Iranian terrorist ring, why is Brody being scapegoated for it?

Yeah, I didn't get that either...unless the writers are 'murican or Israeli enough to claim that Iranians and Al Qaeda are obviously working together.
 

Blader

Member
I guess we're inevitably going to find out that they knew about the law firm

Inevitably? They said so last night :lol

Does anyone have any idea what the chain of command between Saul and Dar Adal is supposed to be? I thought Saul was acting director, but Adal acts like an equal partner or superior, so I'm a little fuzzy on who is whose boss.
 

D4Danger

Unconfirmed Member
Brody's family?

take 'em. take 'em all.

the rest of the show is surprisingly decent. They've really turned it around.
 

LordCanti

Member
Inevitably? They said so last night :lol

Does anyone have any idea what the chain of command between Saul and Dar Adal is supposed to be? I thought Saul was acting director, but Adal acts like an equal partner or superior, so I'm a little fuzzy on who is whose boss.

Saul seems to be the director of operations and I'd guess that Dar doesn't have a title, owing to the black nature of his operations. Saul is in-charge, but Dar has operatives in the field and it doesn't seem like Saul does (other than Carrie, I guess). So if Dar isn't on board with something, Dar could probably veto unofficially.

I guess they did say so. I'm in a flu drug haze, so the obvious "they went for it" meaning "they" was the firm and that Saul knew about it must have eluded me.
 

muddream

Banned
Inevitably? They said so last night :lol

Does anyone have any idea what the chain of command between Saul and Dar Adal is supposed to be? I thought Saul was acting director, but Adal acts like an equal partner or superior, so I'm a little fuzzy on who is whose boss.

Saul is his superior now, but Adal is the CIA's chief of creepyness and assassination stuff...which probably means he knows some shit Saul doesn't as well (and probably won't take too kindly to being left in the dark).
 

Mononoke

Banned
I guess to elaborate a bit more on what I said earlier. I think logically you guys are right, it would make sense that Carrie still feels hurt and flips out over her being thrown under the bus. I mean, even undercover agents succumb to pressure of living a lie. And when this specific life is very personal for Carrie, and she actually DOES have these problems, it makes more sense. So I'm not really disputing that.

But the reason I said it FEELS contrived, is because it does. It feels like the entire thing was set up just for the "gotcha" moment. And even though you COULD logically say there is a reason why Carrie does these things off screen, really the writers are doing it trick the audience into not guessing it's an act. Having characters act a certain way when they don't need to, just for the sake of tricking the audience is cheap.

Wouldn't this have been much better, if we knew all along Carrie + Saul's plan was to do this? And so we saw these very real moments of Carrie descending into madness, all for this con? We see the lines of the lie start to blur and become very real. I don't know, I just want not a fan at all of the way they set this whole thing up. I went back and watched the moment where Carrie watches on TV the committee throwing her under the bus. And I still don't agree with you guys that her specific reaction makes sense, if she knew it was part of a plan. I totally would agree that it's logical for her to react, but not that way. Again, it feels like she's acting a specific way, just to trick us, so we don't guess there is a plan.

What I'm really getting out though I suppose, was it all worth it? I say no. I think this would have been far more interesting had they not done all this run around for a surprise, and instead focused on the deeper character moments, and psychological drama which is what made Season 1 so awesome.
 

GusBus

Member
Hopeful (dark) twist: Leo kills Dana. Police/Mike kill Leo. Their storyline ends. Homeland gets even better.

I jest, but it's aggravating, as I find the rest of the show fantastic. I'm utterly baffled as to why anyone in that writer's room thinks Dana deserves so much screen time. There's obviously competent people working on this show, and yet we're saddled with so much meaningless filler. Who the fuck cares how she swaps her Subaru? I can buy the Leo stuff up to a point, but really?
It's bizarre.

That twist was awesome though. And I agree with the theory that it was hatched after the "fuck you Saul" moment. Very crafty.
 

JonCha

Member
Episode 3 aired last night in the UK.
Thought they conveyed his attempts
to escape
and the frustration very well. Same for Carrie.
 

KarmaCow

Member
So what's the timeline?

-Saul throws Carrie under the bus during the hearing to save the agency.
-Carrie lashes out by going to press
-Carrie gets detained and sent to the psych ward
-Saul gets intel about the money trail, formulates a plan
-Saul goes to see Carrie in that scene where she's drugged up, regrets his actions and gets Carrie to play along
-Carrie still trusts Saul but also can't handle being in the ward
-Carrie can't take it anymore and after being denied release tries to get her dad to tell Saul that the plan is off because she can't take it anymore
-Almost completely broken, gets the call like Saul said she would and then continues with the plan to get the meeting

I'm a little fuzzy on the timings of when Saul sets this plan into motion and when he learns of the money stuff from Fara. It seems like Saul knew about pretty much everything Fara told him already if he already had this plan with Carrie to get the meeting. The damage he's doing Carrie is disgusting as well but Saul seems to have been broken by the pressure of being the head of the agency.
 

LordCanti

Member
Some of her behavior kind of makes sense through a lens of "She was angry that Saul was still sticking to the plan" but not all of it. The plan itself was kind of ridiculous as well, because if Dar had snatched her up, it'd be blown. If the guy on the phone (I forget his name; The surveillance guy) doesn't say "say hi to your mother" the plan is blown. The chances of it working at all were so slim that doing that to Carrie makes no sense.

I can imagine a scenario where she's forced into it because Saul knows about Brody's northern escape and threatens to expose her. He's basically mindfucking her at this point if that's the case. That's not how it seemed though...it seemed like she helped formulate the plan.
 

Niraj

I shot people I like more for less.
I guess to elaborate a bit more on what I said earlier. I think logically you guys are right, it would make sense that Carrie still feels hurt and flips out over her being thrown under the bus. I mean, even undercover agents succumb to pressure of living a lie. And when this specific life is very personal for Carrie, and she actually DOES have these problems, it makes more sense. So I'm not really disputing that.

But the reason I said it FEELS contrived, is because it does. It feels like the entire thing was set up just for the "gotcha" moment. And even though you COULD logically say there is a reason why Carrie does these things off screen, really the writers are doing it trick the audience into not guessing it's an act. Having characters act a certain way when they don't need to, just for the sake of tricking the audience is cheap.

Wouldn't this have been much better, if we knew all along Carrie + Saul's plan was to do this? And so we saw these very real moments of Carrie descending into madness, all for this con? We see the lines of the lie start to blur and become very real. I don't know, I just want not a fan at all of the way they set this whole thing up. I went back and watched the moment where Carrie watches on TV the committee throwing her under the bus. And I still don't agree with you guys that her specific reaction makes sense, if she knew it was part of a plan. I totally would agree that it's logical for her to react, but not that way. Again, it feels like she's acting a specific way, just to trick us, so we don't guess there is a plan.

What I'm really getting out though I suppose, was it all worth it? I say no. I think this would have been far more interesting had they not done all this run around for a surprise, and instead focused on the deeper character moments, and psychological drama which is what made Season 1 so awesome.

Would it have worked better if perhaps the original intention was for Saul to leak that Carrie was fucking Brody and not that she was bi-polar? Say Saul just added that himself to make their whole story about Carrie being almost at the breaking point a little more plausible. She didn't expect that to be a part of it, which would explain her shock when she's in her room by herself watching the hearing, and would also explain why she's so pissed at Saul and tells him to fuck off in the mental institution. A betrayal, but one she has to deal with because she knows it's for the betterment of the nation, that sort of thing. Just mentioning the Brody relationship would have been damning enough for Carrie without adding her mental illness to the equation.

I don't think that's what they had in mind, but I feel like that would work a little better? Maybe?
 

Omzz

Member
I don't know. I really don't believe that this was the plan all along. Maybe Saul clued her in after he threw her under the bus?

Also I seriously just end up doing something else during the Dana scenes. That plot is unbearable to watch
 

LordCanti

Member
Remember when Carrie told the hooker that she was protected and that she could do it? I wonder if she does. I'll bet she learned nothing.
 

Sean

Banned
Not sure I like that the first third of the season was basically one big "gotcha" moment. This twist definitely fixes a lot of issues I had with the early episodes though.
 
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