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[aristotle]

If you replay the final mission it should unlock before you go to rest.

It doesn't. It's a bug they haven't fixed yet. If you die before you start the fight on the ridge, whatever datapoints haven't unlocked before then stay locked.

I have the plat for the game but one datapoint isn't showing up for me I even got all of the world datapoints.

 

[Ruthless_Barbarian]

It doesn't. It's a bug they haven't fixed yet. If you die before you start the fight on the ridge, whatever datapoints haven't unlocked before then stay locked.

I have the plat for the game but one datapoint isn't showing up for me I even got all of the world datapoints.

Ah okay, no wonder I can't get one of the tallneck datapoints, since I jumped off instead of rappelling and then beat the game. When it tried to recollect it by rappelling, it won't unlock.

Same for an audio log I missed in the Zero dawn facility, can't get in now since the gate at Sunfall is closed.

 

[acidagfc]

Are all 3 options at the end with Helis just different ways of finishing him off? Thought for a sec the 'brain' option might convince him to help fight Hades or something.

No idea really, but this was the only time I selected 'fist' option, cause fuck this maniac!

 

[EGM1966]

So at this point the main open plot points are:

• who sent the signal that caused the disruption that led to GAIA self destruct, HADES (and other sub-routines) going rouge and the turning aggresive of machines against humans
  
• Sylen's actual goals and what he know plans to do with HADES as a captive (while the post credits scene was predictable I'm glad it was foreshadowed in his final dialgue when he noted he'd do it all again just with better precautions - which is clearly what he feels he's done at the end with HADES literally an evil genie trapped in a jar)

Which is a pretty solid foundation for going forward. I hope it doesn't turn out to be Ted (although from characters already established he's the obvious candidate) as that would cut across the plausible backstory presented in Horizon and smack of some of their weak narrative beats from Killzone.

Otherwise pretty much everything else was actually covered and wrapped up enough for clarity:

we know what casued the fall of humanity
we know how the current simplified ecosystem with only subset of plants/animals came into being
we know how the current human tribes came into being
we know the incident that caused the derangement
we know what happened to GAIA, HADES, etc.
we know what happened to Sobeck
we know why APOLLO failed to work allowing for grow of tribal society with no awareness of history or technology

All in all I was very impressed - vs their Killzone narratives - how well ZD hangs together. It's all plausibly presented - a killer robot variant of the "grey goo" doomsday scenario, a reasonably workable desperate final plan to ensure survival of the human race, a reasonably plausible context for why the humans and machines (and the world) is the way we find it at the beginning of the game.

I haven't gathered all logs, etc. but the core seems clear or are there any glaring additional elements not covered?

Also do all the Sobeck corrupted entries decrypt by completion of the game? I've wrapped main quest plus most else but still have a few showing as corrupted and under repair.

 

[adamsapple]

was it ever completely established where the game is set geographically ?

based on things, it felt like Colorado to me, I didn't get all the data point files though, so did we ever get a solid confirmation ?

Based on that, we can start guessing where "The forbidden west" might be.

 

[Gradly]

Are all 3 options at the end with Helis just different ways of finishing him off? Thought for a sec the 'brain' option might convince him to help fight Hades or something.

No idea really, but this was the only time I selected 'fist' option, cause fuck this maniac!

Not really, I watched one on a gameplay and I personally chose different (heart) to see what happened, it's just she blamed him and let him turn to face the sun before she kills him. It's kinda same fate, different conversations lol

 

[adamsapple]

Not really, I watched one on a gameplay and I personally chose different (heart) to see what happened, it's just she blamed him and let him turn to face the sun before she kills him

Yeah, that's my favorite one. "Face your god" then a very quick stab, nothing too prolonged or dramatized.

 

[Makoto-Yuki]

was it ever completely established where the game is set geographically ?

based on things, it felt like Colorado to me, I didn't get all the data point files though, so did we ever get a solid confirmation ?

Based on that, we can start guessing where "The forbidden west" might be.

a lot of the landmarks are based on real life ones in utah/colorado/arizona.

 

[acidagfc]

Damn, I can't get this thought out of my head. Not sure if my English level allows me to properly express this, but here goes.

There is such a strong religious motive in the overall story. I am inclined to say it is anti-religious, but I guess it's a matter of perspective.

So humanity managed to wipe the life itself and no god entity was there to prevent this. No one was spared, no matter how righteous one was.
A new life started and the machine in now THE god - it gave birth to everyone and everything.
New gods will be worshipped and new sacrifices will be made in their name, but to what avail? Will humans reach the truth behind their existence? Will they even listen to the truth? Do they need it really?

I am so glad games as media reached the point where such questions can arise without game necessarily asking them. Good job, Guerrilla, really good job.

 

[Carcetti]

Yeah, Horizon back story and theme are not all 'original' but they're all really well done. The themes hold up, the game asks some nice questions and lingers in your mind. Religion, progress, automation, AI, motherhood etc etc, all well covered.

Not to mention that the data logs and history you see in Robot Command, GAIA Prime, and Zero Dawn are really good. Reading about Enduring Victory or the Zero Dawn councillor guides was really evocative and emotional even though robot apocalypse is a very common story in scifi. Definitely my favorite apocalypse in gaming ever.

Also, Ted Faro is amazingly hateable for a person we never meet.

 

[EGM1966]

was it ever completely established where the game is set geographically ?

based on things, it felt like Colorado to me, I didn't get all the data point files though, so did we ever get a solid confirmation ?

Based on that, we can start guessing where "The forbidden west" might be.

I might be remembering wrong but isn't there an actual landmark statue somewhere in the game? I'm sure I remember reading that somewhere. I'll have to look it up.

Technically given its the US landmass the west has to be West coast though surely? Normally West/East refers to coastal ends of the continent.

EDIT: https://nowloading.co/p/all-of-the-real-world-locations-you-can-visit-in-horizon-zero-dawn/4224565

The site has the statue plus claims other known locations.

 

[GLAMr]

Also, Ted Faro is amazingly hateable for a person we never meet.

How the f$%& had the others not killed him? Everybody in that facility had friends and family killed by Ted's hubris, and they were doomed to languish away in a stuffy hole for the rest of their years because of him.

I'd kerb stomp that guy on day one.

 

[EGM1966]

Damn, I can't get this thought out of my head. Not sure if my English level allows me to properly express this, but here goes.

There is such a strong religious motive in the overall story. I am inclined to say it is anti-religious, but I guess it's a matter of perspective.

So humanity managed to wipe the life itself and no god entity was there to prevent this. No one was spared, no matter how righteous one was.
A new life started and the machine in now THE god - it gave birth to everyone and everything.
New gods will be worshipped and new sacrifices will be made in their name, but to what avail? Will humans reach the truth behind their existence? Will they even listen to the truth? Do they need it really?

I am so glad games as media reached the point where such questions can arise without game necessarily asking them. Good job, Guerrilla, really good job.

I wouldn't say it was anti-religious full stop but is certainly criticizes religious fanaticism and bigotry as well as commercial greed and putting the interests of large corporations ahead of the environment, ethics and our species long term survival.

It also points out the difference between ethical science and critical thinking vs belief founded on ignorance of the truth (the scene where Aloy has to try and handle the religious response of the Nora when she knows it based on complete ignorance yet wants to be polite and knows she can't just slam them at that moment is really nicely done as an aside - she's moved so far beyond them in her understanding at that point yet still understands they're just people less informed that her and fundamentally many of them are good individuals.

Timing wise the game couldn't be more relevant with those hence the coverage/focus on those aspects.

Throw in the feminist angle too and it's fully loaded with topical topics (pardon the pun).

Certainly I'd agree every criticism it throws up is a valid one and we have clear evidence right here and now in our current geopolitical climate,

 

[wapplew]

Damn, I can't get this thought out of my head. Not sure if my English level allows me to properly express this, but here goes.

There is such a strong religious motive in the overall story. I am inclined to say it is anti-religious, but I guess it's a matter of perspective.

So humanity managed to wipe the life itself and no god entity was there to prevent this. No one was spared, no matter how righteous one was.
A new life started and the machine in now THE god - it gave birth to everyone and everything.
New gods will be worshipped and new sacrifices will be made in their name, but to what avail? Will humans reach the truth behind their existence? Will they even listen to the truth? Do they need it really?

I am so glad games as media reached the point where such questions can arise without game necessarily asking them. Good job, Guerrilla, really good job.

Never thought about it that way, you are right, the machine did created new life.
But they were created by human and their creations are base on old life. They can't design new life form can they?

 

[RocknRola]

So at this point the main open plot points are:

• 
  [*]who sent the signal that caused the disruption that led to GAIA self destruct, HADES (and other sub-routines) going rouge and the turning aggresive of machines against humans
  
• Sylen's actual goals and what he know plans to do with HADES as a captive (while the post credits scene was predictable I'm glad it was foreshadowed in his final dialgue when he noted he'd do it all again just with better precautions - which is clearly what he feels he's done at the end with HADES literally an evil genie trapped in a jar)

Which is a pretty solid foundation for going forward. I hope it doesn't turn out to be Ted (although from characters already established he's the obvious candidate) as that would cut across the plausible backstory presented in Horizon and smack of some of their weak narrative beats from Killzone.

Otherwise pretty much everything else was actually covered and wrapped up enough for clarity:

we know what casued the fall of humanity
we know how the current simplified ecosystem with only subset of plants/animals came into being
we know how the current human tribes came into being
we know the incident that caused the derangement
we know what happened to GAIA, HADES, etc.
we know what happened to Sobeck
we know why APOLLO failed to work allowing for grow of tribal society with no awareness of history or technology

All in all I was very impressed - vs their Killzone narratives - how well ZD hangs together. It's all plausibly presented - a killer robot variant of the "grey goo" doomsday scenario, a reasonably workable desperate final plan to ensure survival of the human race, a reasonably plausible context for why the humans and machines (and the world) is the way we find it at the beginning of the game.

I haven't gathered all logs, etc. but the core seems clear or are there any glaring additional elements not covered?

Also do all the Sobeck corrupted entries decrypt by completion of the game? I've wrapped main quest plus most else but still have a few showing as corrupted and under repair.

Regarding that first part I had assumed it was the already out of control machines, which turned against Humans. Of course, there isn't any explicit implication anywhere about it, I just reached that conclusion given the overall story presented in the game. I could be wrong of course, could be something/someone else playing the super long game! (that would actually be kinda crazy and awesome too).

 

[adamsapple]

I might be remembering wrong but isn't there an actual landmark statue somewhere in the game? I'm sure I remember reading that somewhere. I'll have to look it up.

Technically given its the US landmass the west has to be West coast though surely? Normally West/East refers to coastal ends of the continent.

EDIT: https://nowloading.co/p/all-of-the-real-world-locations-you-can-visit-in-horizon-zero-dawn/4224565

The site has the statue plus claims other known locations.

Thanks, that's a very interesting read. A lot more locations there than I was expecting.

So .. sequel based in Nevada ?

 

[Valonquar]

Same for an audio log I missed in the Zero dawn facility, can't get in now since the gate at Sunfall is closed.

You can reenter the facility just outside of Sunfall, there's a grate you enter. You need to wear the disguise outfit to fast travel over near it though.

Also do all the Sobeck corrupted entries decrypt by completion of the game? I've wrapped main quest plus most else but still have a few showing as corrupted and under repair.

The game leaves those messages as corrupted, and then the next 5 entries are the decrypted versions.

 

[LiK]

was it ever completely established where the game is set geographically ?

based on things, it felt like Colorado to me, I didn't get all the data point files though, so did we ever get a solid confirmation ?

Based on that, we can start guessing where "The forbidden west" might be.

If you did the Vantage collectibles, you find locations and structures in Colorado. One of them is literally "Colorado Springs" so it's confirmed. I think people also mentioned Utah and Arizona as the surrounding areas. It was a pretty cool reveal cuz I thought it was just a vague location somewhere in North America.

 

[acidagfc]

I wouldn't say it was anti-religious full stop but is certainly criticizes religious fanaticism and bigotry as well as commercial greed and putting the interests of large corporations ahead of the environment, ethics and our species long term survival.

It also points out the difference between ethical science and critical thinking vs belief founded on ignorance of the truth (the scene where Aloy has to try and handle the religious response of the Nora when she knows it based on complete ignorance yet wants to be polite and knows she can't just slam them at that moment is really nicely done as an aside - she's moved so far beyond them in her understanding at that point yet still understands they're just people less informed that her and fundamentally many of them are good individuals.

Ah yes, that scene with Aloy trying to find correct words was simply amazing. It's like talking to your older and religious relatives, who you do not want to offend, but cannot really take seriously. They are still a good people and it is a bit too late (and ultimately pointless) to change their mind about anything.

 

[MaKTaiL]

I can't stop thinking bout this game... dammit.

Is it crazy to say this is my favorite game of all time? (I do swap my goat often though, I don't believe in nostalgia...). Havent had a scifi story affect me this much since Mass Effect 1.

Try playing SOMA sometime. It has one of the best sci-fi stories I've ever experienced in a game ever. Seriously.

 

[Portman]

I might be remembering wrong but isn't there an actual landmark statue somewhere in the game? I'm sure I remember reading that somewhere. I'll have to look it up.

Technically given its the US landmass the west has to be West coast though surely? Normally West/East refers to coastal ends of the continent.

EDIT: https://nowloading.co/p/all-of-the-real-world-locations-you-can-visit-in-horizon-zero-dawn/4224565

The site has the statue plus claims other known locations.

Neat find on that site with the locations. Thanks for sharing that one with us. That has me hoping they'll keep up the same attention to detail and setting if we get a sequel.

Now that I've seen it mention NORAD being closer to the city it makes sense. Now I've just got to wait and see if we'll find out why that Horus unit was apparently attempting to breach All Mother mountain. For some reason that's a big question I want to know but we have plenty of questions overall too.

I've still got to go wrap up the side quests and hunt down more of the logs in the world too to see what bits of info and details are still out there.

 

[LiK]

Not gonna lie, but I want to see more of the past so here's hoping for the Forbidden West for the sequel.

 

[mokeyjoe]

One issue i have with the story is the way it describes people as living in 'primitive tribes'. Nothing to do with political correctness, I just think it seems inaccurate.

Look at Meridian. The Carja have all that architecture, engineering, agriculture, irrigation systems, water wheels, written histories etc. These are like Renaissance-era people, not primitive in any sense of the word. It's difficult to believe they went from zero to that in a few centuries.

 

[LiK]

I think I love learning where "brave" came from. That was kinda subtle.

 

[HStallion]

One issue i have with the story is the way it describes people as living in 'primitive tribes'. Nothing to do with political correctness, I just think it seems inaccurate.

Look at Meridian. The Carja have all that architecture, engineering, agriculture, irrigation systems, water wheels, written histories etc. These are like Renaissance-era people, not primitive in any sense of the word. It's difficult to believe they went from zero to that in a few centuries.

Some of them call each other savages because they're ignorant and prejudiced. The Nora are called savages by most of the tribes because of their backwards ways relative to the other more inquisitive tribes.

 

[Darryl M R]

I think I love learning where "brave" came from. That was kinda subtle.

You will be brave.

 

[hydruxo]

Not gonna lie, but I want to see more of the past so here's hoping for the Forbidden West for the sequel.

That glyph about the Forbidden West made it sound so amazing. Massive new machines, blue sand dunes, etc. I'd love a sequel set in that.

 

[LiK]

That glyph about the Forbidden West made it sound so amazing. Massive new machines, blue sand dunes, etc. I'd love a sequel set in that.

yea, GG has done massive huge machines in Killzone so that teaser with Sylens in the epilogue is pretty intriguing. Here's hoping GG is gonna make the next game even bigger.

 

[Zackat]

set it in cali through to the pacific NW, would be amazing

 

[Tosyn_88]

One issue i have with the story is the way it describes people as living in 'primitive tribes'. Nothing to do with political correctness, I just think it seems inaccurate.

Look at Meridian. The Carja have all that architecture, engineering, agriculture, irrigation systems, water wheels, written histories etc. These are like Renaissance-era people, not primitive in any sense of the word. It's difficult to believe they went from zero to that in a few centuries.

If you read more of the in game data, some addressed the fact that some people did in fact learn about the old world via focuses. While the majority were ignorant, some did in fact harness the things they discovered about the old world. For example, the guy Olin always ventured into the caves, so it really isn't far fetched that some of those ideas + trial and error led to so much development, even to the point of their fashion.

 

[LiK]

Yea, seems like only the Nora were against checking the ruins for the most part. The rest of the world seems to be less superstitious with the Old Ones. It would be pretty neat to see other areas in the sequel where people have taken in the old tech for their cities.

 

[EL CUCO]

I'm ready for 4 player coop DLC 👀

 

[Ruthless_Barbarian]

I'm ready for 4 player coop DLC 👀

This isn't Gears bruh

 

[EL CUCO]

This isn't Gears bruh

LOL I wanna take down that huge Ancient Machine with some buddies! Hope we don't have to wait for the sequel on that.

 

[UnluckyKate]

Little factoid from the Ops file.

Eleuthia-09 released humanity in 2326. Gaia Prime sent instructions to clone Lis in 3020 before excuting her reactor failsafe, and Aloy was born a year later.

The Nora are decendents of the first tribe of E09 that was released some 700 years prior.

The game takes place in 3021.

I calculated 3021 from the numbers of days ever since Liz entered the lab, from 2064. It says 154000 days or something

 

[HStallion]

I honestly thought the game took place far longer than that despite the days given how entire large stalactites and stalagmites formations had been created which often takes many thousands of years to form but that might have just been an oversight by GG.

 

[Lonestar]

If you did the Vantage collectibles, you find locations and structures in Colorado. One of them is literally "Colorado Springs" so it's confirmed. I think people also mentioned Utah and Arizona as the surrounding areas. It was a pretty cool reveal cuz I thought it was just a vague location somewhere in North America.

Yeah, the vantages lead me to that realization. Saw an Air Force Academy, and that piqued my curiosity. Then I saw Colorado Springs. Pretty sure there's one that literally says Denver Stadium. There's a Bryce, Utah and a Monument Valley one too.

Wonder if I had missed this whole "Brave" realization. Think I'm still missing a few data collections.

 

[KINGofCRA5H]

This is one of those games where watching peoples reactions going through the story for the first time will NEVER get old. Earlier this morning I was watching a popular streamer do the mission where you learn all about Project Zero Dawn and it was so amazing watching his reactions.

This game is so fucking good.

 

[LiK]

This is one of those games where watching peoples reactions going through the story for the first time will NEVER get old. Earlier this morning I was watching a popular streamer do the mission where you learn all about Project Zero Dawn and it was so amazing watching his reactions.

This game is so fucking good.

Link me to any good reactions.

 

[Ruthless_Barbarian]

I'm waiting for my cousin bro who recently got a ps4 to play this, and see his reactions...he's 16 years old.

 

[KINGofCRA5H]

Link me to any good reactions.

It was https://www.twitch.tv/cohhcarnage, check his latest VOD, towards the very end, I'd say the last 20-30 or so is just him listening to the logs and watching the hologram of Lis explain project ZD

 

[The Librarian]

So at this point the main open plot points are:

• who sent the signal that caused the disruption that led to GAIA self destruct, HADES (and other sub-routines) going rouge and the turning aggresive of machines against humans
  
• Sylen's actual goals and what he know plans to do with HADES as a captive (while the post credits scene was predictable I'm glad it was foreshadowed in his final dialgue when he noted he'd do it all again just with better precautions - which is clearly what he feels he's done at the end with HADES literally an evil genie trapped in a jar)

Don't forget that they have to put GAIA back together. At the end of the game, Earth's biosphere is still on course to break down without her. Basically, for a sequel, they got two main story goals they have to contend with: build GAIA again and the source of that transmission.

 

[shiba5]

Ah okay, no wonder I can't get one of the tallneck datapoints, since I jumped off instead of rappelling and then beat the game. When it tried to recollect it by rappelling, it won't unlock.

Same for an audio log I missed in the Zero dawn facility, can't get in now since the gate at Sunfall is closed.

You don't go through the gate to re-enter the ZD bunker. As you enter the Sunfall tent city, turn right go around the ring until you reach a round vent. Click on it to enter. It's the same place you end up the first time you go there by climbing down the cliff wall.

 

[HStallion]

Don't forget that they have to put GAIA back together. At the end of the game, Earth's biosphere is still on course to break down without her. Basically, for a sequel, they got two main story goals they have to contend with: build GAIA again and the source of that transmission.

The biggest thing I'm curious about is who the hell would be controlling Hades because its entire goal was restarting the Faro plague and once more destroying the planet. That seems like a huge amount of power and influence to control one of the main AI's behind the terraforming of Earth after the apocalypse. More so than I think any random tribesman or even entire tribe would have as even the Eclipse were basically a thing because Sylens and Hades had set it all up themselves.

Not only that but Hades goal being the reactivation of the Faro machines en masse to once more consume the world is not a goal I can see any normal and regular human would want to be doing. I actually thought that the AI behind the Faro plague would be the one pulling the strings and setting all this stuff into motion but I'm not so sure anymore, especially when the term "masters" was being used.

It might be a bit too obvious but I think it could be someone like Ted Faro. Either in the form of an AI left after his death or he somehow found a way to expand his life to last till Aloy's time either through cryo storage or something else. That or perhaps Ted intiated the Light House Keeper program and its one of a long line of Ted clones that are still pushing his will onto the world long after the old one died out.

That or its something else entirely that we haven't even encountered yet.

 

[The Librarian]

The biggest thing I'm curious about is who the hell would be controlling Hades because its entire goal was restarting the Faro plague and once more destroying the planet. That seems like a huge amount of power and influence to control one of the main AI's behind the terraforming of Earth after the apocalypse. More so than I think any random tribesman or even entire tribe would have as even the Eclipse were basically a thing because Sylens and Hades had set it all up themselves.

Not only that but Hades goal being the reactivation of the Faro machines en masse to once more consume the world is not a goal I can see any normal and regular human would want to be doing. I actually thought that the AI behind the Faro plague would be the one pulling the strings and setting all this stuff into motion but I'm not so sure anymore, especially when the term "masters" was being used.

It might be a bit too obvious but I think it could be someone like Ted Faro. Either in the form of an AI left after his death or he somehow found a way to expand his life to last till Aloy's time either through cryo storage or something else. That or perhaps Ted intiated the Light House Keeper program and its one of a long line of Ted clones that are still pushing his will onto the world long after the old one died out.

That or its something else entirely that we haven't even encountered yet.

Something else to consider: Was it ever explained the way in which Hades was supposed to "restart" the biosphere if GAIA didn't get it right? Was it just manufacturing new machines to achieve that?

 

[TyrantII]

I might be remembering wrong but isn't there an actual landmark statue somewhere in the game? I'm sure I remember reading that somewhere. I'll have to look it up.

Technically given its the US landmass the west has to be West coast though surely? Normally West/East refers to coastal ends of the continent.

EDIT: https://nowloading.co/p/all-of-the-real-world-locations-you-can-visit-in-horizon-zero-dawn/4224565

The site has the statue plus claims other known locations.

Historically "The West" in US Vernacular is everything west of the Mississippi, from the plains to the Pacific Coast.

The game mostly seems to take place in Arizona and Colorado; with hints of maybe Montana and everything in between.

I do wonder where that tropical jungle came from.

 

[HStallion]

Something else to consider: Was it ever explained the way in which Hades was supposed to "restart" the biosphere if GAIA didn't get it right? Was it just manufacturing new machines to achieve that?

From the way the datapoints made it out to be was that GAIA would be basically be taken off of control and Hades would replace her and use the other 12 AI's to basically destroy the broken biosphere before relinquishing control back to GAIA once its task was complete.

 

[exYle]

I think I love learning where "brave" came from. That was kinda subtle.

Wait, I missed that. What was the reason?

 

[Lonestar]

From the way the datapoints made it out to be was that GAIA would be basically be taken off of control and Hades would replace her and use the other 12 AI's to basically destroy the broken biosphere before relinquishing control back to GAIA once its task was complete.

This is kind of what I thought.

To me, the signal kind of separated the subroutines from GAIA, and Hades predetermined role is to wipe out the planet. So that's what he immediately sets out to do. Not sure if the signal is purposefully going after Hades, just that it tampered with the connection between the subroutines and GAIA.

Hades would first use the terraforming machine itself to wipe out the planet, but that gets cut off by GAIA's explosion. There, it would have remained dormant, buried under the rubble, until Sylens showed up. There, it decided to work towards a path to do the next easiest way to wipe out the planet: Reuse the FARO robots and Swarm. So it destabilizes the nearby major inhabitants (Meridian) and builds an army to help it get to the Spire.

I do wonder if the Signal came from space, going back to the tallneck trasmissions, where something in orbit is probing specifically "GPRIME" (GAIA Prime), up until "Human interference" which I assume might be Sylens.

 

[LiK]

Wait, I missed that. What was the reason?

The holograms showing the kids in the bunker when they were forced to leave. The fake mother told them they were brave.