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[Zhengi]

A better skill set for workers won't fix this problem on a macro level. You acknowledge this and then go right back into saying it will fix it. Does our educational system need reform, yes. Does our college system need reform, yes. The fact is though someone needs to work behind that counter and they should be able to live off of that job. I'm not saying they should be able to raise a family of four, but they shouldn't need a second job just to take care of themselves. We all need to admit someone needs to do the boring jobs, the menial jobs, the shit that makes society work. They should be properly compensated.

A better skill set will lead to another job that doesn't have to do with that minimum wage job. The reason those minimum wage jobs exists is for those without skill sets that allow for them to find better employment. By skill set I am talking about jobs like plumbers, air conditioning repairmen, mechanics, etc. These are labor jobs that do not require as much education, but do require skill sets to perform. So on the macro level, if it requires the government to provide these skills, then there will be an effect that will help the overall poverty level.

And as soon as the number of unskilled workers goes down, there will be less people to take those minimum wage jobs. Businesses will have no choice but to provide higher wages to compete for these workers. Giving out living wages just because you want to doesn't make sense for many businesses. That doesn't work when there are so many people available for those unskilled positions.

Okay, so say this person works on average 40-50 hours a week at McD's. A lot of times at these places, you don't have steady hours, or they are quite variable as far as scheduling goes. On top of that, you cannot afford to take even a couple hours a week off of that ~50 hours to dedicate to working on educating yourself, finding another job, ect.

In your hypothetical, 40-50 hours is full time work. Does a person who works minimum wage really work that much? If so, they should be earning overtime pay. If they aren't, they need to complain to their state that that business is taking advantage of them.

Plus, there is such a concept as going back to school part time. If a person who is working 40 hours can't even dedicate a couple of hours to school, then they can continue to use that excuse to stay in poverty. I am working 40 hours and going back to school at the same time. I know it isn't easy, but a person has to do things to help themselves. This all depends on the person if they are willing to work towards that or not.

McDonald's made close to $5 billion in profits in 2010.

There has to be a way to get some of that money down to the people who do the grunt work.

Isn't that McDonalds the corporation and not each McDonalds franchise? Two different things going on here.

 

[Escape Goat]

McDonald's made close to $5 billion in profits in 2010.

There has to be a way to get some of that money down to the people who do the grunt work.

They're getting paid 7 bucks to flip a burger when the machine beeps. The whole place is automated so that even a child could do the job. How much is this job worth? 10/hr? 12?

 

[tokkun]

Except being a CEO is far, far, far harder then being a cashier at a Mcdonalds.

I doubt it. If you were given the option of being a CEO or being a McDonald's cashier and the pay and hours were the same, would you really choose cashier - a job where you get no autonomy, no respect, is extremely repetitive, makes you deal with rude customers, etc?

White collar jobs are not harder to perform, they are harder to obtain.

 

[remnant]

McDonald's made close to $5 billion in profits in 2010.

There has to be a way to get some of that money down to the people who do the grunt work.

And how much did the local McDonalds on your street corner make? 5 billion as well?

The CEO has jack to do with their wages.

 

[YuriLowell]

If someone is willing to take a job in the dregs of society like working in the fast food industry to support themselves and their family, they should be able to reasonably expect their pay to cover necessities like food, shelter, transportation, and basic medical care.

.

I don't see why someone should be entitled to all of those things, If I had to work my ass off for what I have now, I don't think someone who just wanted to go flip burgers should be entitled to the same thing.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

I doubt it. If you were given the option of being a CEO or being a McDonald's cashier and the pay and hours were the same, would you really choose cashier - a job where you get no autonomy, no respect, is extremely repetitive, makes you deal with rude customers, etc?

White collar jobs are not harder to perform, they are harder to obtain.

Completely specious reasoning.

You can't honestly say that being the CEO of McDonald's takes the same level of skill as being a cashier.

 

[TangoAlphaLima]

If someone is willing to take a job in the dregs of society like working in the fast food industry to support themselves and their family, they should be able to reasonably expect their pay to cover necessities like food, shelter, transportation, and basic medical care.

I don't disagree, but I think the anger is misdirected at the "big, evil corporations." It's the job of a corporation to maximize profit. It's the job of the government, whether that is federal or state, to determine the minimum wage a worker should be paid. If McDonald's suddenly offers to pay its workers more, its prices go up, which has an effect on sales and profit.

Sure it is, but does that mean the McDonald's CEO should make 850 times what the average worker does (as he did in 2009... and I'm being extremely generous by estimating the average McDonald's gross take-home pay at $20,000/year)? Is his job really 850 times more important and difficult?

It has nothing to do with how difficult his job is. It's all about his value to the corporation. Unskilled workers can be replaced. A good or great CEO is not as easy to replace.

 

[Sub_Level]

Let's all wise up about eating habits and just put them out of jobs entirely.

McDonalds is a convenient place to get tons of macronutrients. As long as you keep it within your caloric intake, it will not instantly make you fat contrary to popular belief.

 

[reaver18]

You have to buy a membership to go to Costco, just to buy that hotdog that isn't a dollar.

You dont need a membership to eat at the food court.

This whole issue boils down to the values within a company . Some companies value their employees and look at them as assets to their company (costco,whole foods, etc) while others look at employees as easily replaceable and of no value long term.

 

[Bgamer90]

You are talking about $15/hour now. And 30k a year is just passably getting by at this point with not a lot of expenses other than upkeep. You are not really able to save much money, and retirement is going to be bleak if at all even possible.

?

Find it strange how you replied to me. You did so in a way that seems like you feel that I've replied to you before in this thread when I haven't.

Like I said, in the Buffalo area, a single person can live decently off $30,000. It doesn't cost much at all to live here. There are many making that much here that are single and can save money up.

If you have a family then yeah, that's going to be pretty tight. I never said a person with a family though.

Anyone who can justify min. wage set at $7.25 is not making those wages.

???

I never said that they were.

 

[YuriLowell]

?

Find it strange how you replied to me. You did so in a way that seems like you feel that I've replied to you before in this thread when I haven't.

Like I said, in the Buffalo area, a single person can live decently off $30,000. It doesn't cost much at all to live here. There are many making that much here that are single and can save money up.

If you have a family then yeah, that's going to be pretty tight. I never said a person with a family though.



???

I never said that they were.

Define living decently? Just renting a one bedroom all day?

I'm making 50k living in rural virginia, and I'm finding its hard to get by sometimes.

 

[Josh7289]

I'm also not against automation. But once things are automated and people lose their jobs, we should basically just give them money and fund programs that help them gain skills so they can get better jobs.

 

[gwarm01]

I'm all for workers uniting to balance out corporate power and demand fair treatment and pay, but come on. This is McDonalds. Jobs like this should be left to teens. There are always other options out there, you just have to be willing to move or do something new. If you jaren't, then I'm sorry but you don't deserve a doubled wage for making the world's worst hamburgers.

 

[NIGHT-]

The opposite actually, I live in the countryside, having a cheap car will cost more than public transport in the long run, if it's cheap the fuel economy will likely suck, it will be high maintenance also including insurance, do you not have bus and trains which offer annual passes?

I live in Arkansas and this is bogus! You have to have a car here!

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Costco and home depot aren't selling dollar burgers.

maybe a Dollar Menu is an unsustainable business practice?

I'm all for workers uniting to balance out corporate power and demand fair treatment and pay, but come on. This is McDonalds. Jobs like this should be left to teens. There are always other options out there, you just have to be willing to move or do something new. If you jaren't, then I'm sorry but you don't deserve a doubled wage for making the world's worst hamburgers.

What if you can't move? Like you can't actually move away. You can't do it, it's impossible

woops, guess you suck it up and be underemployed?

 

[gryz]

all that increasing the minimum wage does is make everything cost more.

 

[tokkun]

Completely specious reasoning.

You can't honestly say that being the CEO of McDonald's takes the same level of skill as being a cashier.

Of course not; I stated quite clearly that the job of CEO was harder to obtain.

However, actually performing the job of cashier is something that I think most people would find more onerous that performing the job of CEO.

 

[Zhengi]

maybe a Dollar Menu is an unsustainable business practice?

Seems sustainable enough if you keep costs down like McDonalds, Burger King, Wendys, 99 cent stores, Dollar stores, etc. do.

 

[Oppo]

Can I just say....

$7.75 an hour?

Holy shit. I didn't know it was that low. Christ on a bike. I thought Canada's minimum wage was bad. It's $10.25 here, and that's still too low IMO.

However, actually performing the job of cashier is something that I think most people would find more onerous that performing the job of CEO.

I'm no 1% defender but this is dumb. I doubt your average cashier can even comprehend an annual report. I can't. And I've designed a few.

 

[WickedCobra03]

A better skill set will lead to another job that doesn't have to do with that minimum wage job. The reason those minimum wage jobs exists is for those without skill sets that allow for them to find better employment. By skill set I am talking about jobs like plumbers, air conditioning repairmen, mechanics, etc. These are labor jobs that do not require as much education, but do require skill sets to perform. So on the macro level, if it requires the government to provide these skills, then there will be an effect that will help the overall poverty level.

And as soon as the number of unskilled workers goes down, there will be less people to take those minimum wage jobs. Businesses will have no choice but to provide higher wages to compete for these workers. Giving out living wages just because you want to doesn't make sense for many businesses. That doesn't work when there are so many people available for those unskilled positions.



In your hypothetical, 40-50 hours is full time work. Does a person who works minimum wage really work that much? If so, they should be earning overtime pay. If they aren't, they need to complain to their state that that business is taking advantage of them.

Plus, there is such a concept as going back to school part time. If a person who is working 40 hours can't even dedicate a couple of hours to school, then they can continue to use that excuse to stay in poverty. I am working 40 hours and going back to school at the same time. I know it isn't easy, but a person has to do things to help themselves. This all depends on the person if they are willing to work towards that or not.



Isn't that McDonalds the corporation and not each McDonalds franchise? Two different things going on here.

40*7.25 is $290.00 a week. That is barely enough to support yourself going to school, even if you are getting loans and full loans for the actual schooling part. That is realistically not even enough to live with a roomate, pay for gas to get back and forth to school every day and to work, food, personal upkeep, ect. And this would be for a 2 year technical training type of job. Forget trying to do this for 4-5 years for a 4-year degree in college. And now after you get out of your 18-month to 2 year schooling or even 4 year bachelors degree and you can't find a job. Now you have school loans to worry about on top of that.

Oh, and don't even get me started on those "fake" schools that give an iPad to every new student... :| Everest, Colorado Tech, ect. People do get sucked into those and taken for a ride and then left to pay the debt they accrued with no education and still working that minimum wage job. They may not be the smartest people, but they are desperate, and the government can't really do anything to shut these places down either.

 

[gryz]

White collar jobs are not harder to perform, they are harder to obtain.

yes cooking french fries is much more challenging than being an engineer or doctor.

 

[Bgamer90]

Define living decently? Just renting a one bedroom all day?

I'm making 50k living in rural virginia, and I'm finding its hard to get by sometimes.

Live decently= Not having rent be 1/2 (or more) than income; living in a decent area; being able to take care of bills while still being able to set money aside.

Again, I'm talking about a single person. With $50k/year, a single person in the Buffalo area could live REALLY well. If a single person is struggling making $50k here then they are doing something wrong.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

Of course not; I stated quite clearly that the job of CEO was harder to obtain.

However, actually performing the job of cashier is something that I think most people would find more onerous that performing the job of CEO.

You said white collar jobs are not harder to perform.

Onerous and tedious are two different things.

 

[unknownhero]

$15 an hour is too much for the jobs they are working. I think this is insane because it's a job that requires no schooling. If they want a higher paying job then they could save up for school.

for reference: I'm a dishwasher whose going to college and helps my parents with paying thier taxes(at least for the last two years).

 

[remnant]

maybe a Dollar Menu is an unsustainable business practice?

Seems to work for everyone but the people who think McDonalds is a career

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Seems to work for everyone but the people who think McDonalds is a career

McDonalds shouldn't be a career, but the real world truth is it IS a career for a ton of people, and those people deserve to live reasonably (and not one car accident away from living on the streets)

 

[KingGondo]

I don't see why someone should be entitled to all of those things, If I had to work my ass off for what I have now, I don't think someone who just wanted to go flip burgers should be entitled to the same thing.

Who says they "wanted" to go flip burgers? A lot more goes into your station in life than desire, or even willingness to work hard.

Again, take a look at what I listed as necessities: food, shelter, transportation, and basic medical care. Do you really think that someone who works diligently at a thankless job shouldn't get those things, or should they be at the mercy of whatever their company decides is the most profitable wage to pay them?

I'm not talking about giving these people pensions--just basic day-to-day security. I'd even be fine with basing it on tenure, so you only get a higher wage if you work for McD's for over a year.

I don't disagree, but I think the anger is misdirected at the "big, evil corporations." It's the job of a corporation to maximize profit. It's the job of the government, whether that is federal or state, to determine the minimum wage a worker should be paid. If McDonald's suddenly offers to pay its workers more, its prices go up, which has an effect on sales and profit.

When the government has essentially become a proxy for the whims of the corporate world, it's the job of the workers to try and change things (as futile as that attempt may be).

It has nothing to do with how difficult his job is. It's all about his value to the corporation. Unskilled workers can be replaced. A good or great CEO is not as easy to replace.

I understand your larger point, but you have to admit there should be a middle ground. There's nothing wrong with being rich, and there's nothing wrong with CEOs making way more than the lowest employees, especially at a business like McDonald's. But a basic sense of fairness and empathy for your fellow American trying to better their situation seems to be missing.

 

[lenovox1]

Wouldn't most of these people have part-time positions? So they're making less than 10k a year? And some people here think that anyone, with or without government assistance, can live off that? Ummm...

And any grown adult that has to take a job at McDonald's to survive probably doesn't have the means to get a better position anywhere else. So thoughts like, “They should just move,” and, “Why don't they just get a better education?” are ignorant and immature to say the least.

 

[jamesinclair]

all that increasing the minimum wage does is make everything cost more.

When the minim wage recently went from $5.50 to $7.25 an hour, a massive percentage increase....

Did you notice prices go up?

Because looking at the inflation rates....inflation was LOWER than when the wage remained the same.

Explain that please.

 

[Ferrio]

Paying a McDonald's cashier $15 an hour would be insane.

Why? Supermarkets can pay their cashiers that much, what's the difference?

 

[Zoe]

McDonalds shouldn't be a career, but the real world truth is it IS a career for a ton of people, and those people deserve to live reasonably (and not one car accident away from living on the streets)

That should probably be the burden of the government then, not the franchisee.

 

[that1dude24]

Can I just say....

$7.75 an hour?

Holy shit. I didn't know it was that low. Christ on a bike. I thought Canada's minimum wage was bad. It's $10.25 here, and that's still too low IMO.



I'm no 1% defender but this is dumb. I doubt your average cashier can even comprehend an annual report. I can't. And I've designed a few.

you're 50 cents too high.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

That should probably be the burden of the government then, not the franchisee.

you don't believe strikes reach politicians' ears ? That they ignore strikes and that strikes can also impact government policy as they did in the early 1900s?

 

[KingGondo]

And any grown adult that has to take a job at McDonald's to survive probably doesn't have the means to get a better position anywhere else. So thoughts like, “They should just move,” and, “Why don't they just get a better education?” are ignorant and immature to say the least.

Speak for yourself.

I only became a respected member of NeoGAF and got a tag because I pulled myself up by my Internet Bootstraps.

 

[remnant]

McDonalds shouldn't be a career, but the real world truth is it IS a career for a ton of people, and those people deserve to live reasonably (and not one car accident away from living on the streets)

If they don't feel they are being paid reasonably well leave, move, quit, whatever. Find a company that will pay more. Millions of people do a low wage job and move on after a while. Its a career if you choose to no longer try.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

Why? Supermarkets can pay their cashiers that much, what's the difference?

The average supermarket cashier does not make $15 an hour.

I say this as a former supermarket cashier from Chicago.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

If they don't feel they are being paid reasonably well leave, move, quit, whatever. Find a company that will pay more. Millions of people do a low wage job and move on after a while. Its a career if you choose to no longer try.

leaving is not an option when you're a single mother with 3 kids to feed. It's impossible, you can't do it. One week without a paycheck and it's the streets.
That single mother also has a mother with dementia, who lives in a nursing home. The woman cannot move, she cannot leave her mother to die alone.

But okay, maybe in fantasy land such a solution to the problem exists, but right now what you're saying has no barring on the real world situations of millions of people. It's empty advice.

 

[Zoe]

you don't believe strikes reach politicians' ears ? That they ignore strikes and that strikes can also impact government policy as they did in the early 1900s?

Sure it will reach politicians' ears, but the real world truth is no politician is going to double the minimum wage.

 

[Beerman462]

I guess the short answer is if they get paid more people will have to spend more than $1 for a gallon of coke or a double cheesburger.

Remember how Papa Johns said Obama care would add 25cents to the cost of a pizza. Well so fucking what. If McDonalds has to find a way to increase their margins so their workers can afford to eat something other than the same shitty food they sell all day I say good.

 

[Funky Papa]

Wouldn't most of these people have part-time positions? So they're making less than 10k a year? And some people here think that anyone, with or without government assistance, can live off that? Ummm...

And any grown adult that has to take a job at McDonald's to survive probably doesn't have the means to get a better position anywhere else. So thoughts like, “They should just move,” and, “Why don't they just get a better education?” are ignorant and immature to say the least.

The vehement distaste of some gaffers towards low end jobs and the men and women who tend them is something that rubs me the wrong way. To quote an old post I made last year

I always thought that the best thing that could ever come from the recession was some solidarity towards the people doing menial work. You know, the people that pack your shit, clean up after your stupid kids and mop the toilets of your office building.

Boy, was I wrong.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Sure it will reach politicians' ears, but the real world truth is no politician is going to double the minimum wage.

In negotiations you make a ridiculous offer well above what you really want, and then bargain down from there.

If you start with what you actually want, it will only go down from there.

 

[this_guy]

Since no one has replied to this yet, I just want to quote myself. For people in favor of paying a living wage, should I have been paid more when I was 16? Why or why not?

I worked at Domino's Pizza for minimum wage when I was 16. For people saying minimum wage should be enough to support a family, at that age should I have been paid more, at the point that I can support a family? I worked for extra spending money, and I figured I'll need money once I start college. I didn't have a family to support, but I did have the motivation to make in the future than working a fast food job.

 

[andycapps]

15 an hour.

Yeah right. Living wage is probably about $10-12 in the majority of the US.

 

[remnant]

leaving is not an option when you're a single mother with 3 kids to feed. It's impossible, you can't do it. One week without a paycheck and it's the streets.
That single mother also has a mother with dementia, who lives in a nursing home. The woman cannot move, she cannot leave her mother to die alone.

But okay, maybe in fantasy land such a solution to the problem exists, but right now what you're saying has no barring on the real world situations of millions of people. It's empty advice.

so having kids or an ailing relative means you can't crack open a newspaper or go to monster.com? Its impossible to look for work and work at the same time now. She isn't even full time so its not like McDonalds is forcing her to stay in the store.

They are living paycheck to paycheck, working so hard they can't look for new work....but she is striking.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Yeah right. Living wage is probably about $10-12 in the majority of the US.

with no spouse income and a kid? lol no

so having kids or an ailing relative means you can't crack open a newspaper or go to monster.com? Its impossible to look for work and work at the same time now. They aren't even full time so its not like McDonalds is forcing her to stay in the store.

They are living paycheck to paycheck, working so hard can't look for for new work....but she is striking.

You say that she should do things to increase her pay and then bemoan her striking?

You don't see the contradiction in this line of thinking?

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

The vehement distaste of some gaffers towards low end jobs and the men and women who tend them is something that rubs me the wrong way.

Or maybe some of us have worked those low end jobs and know that we got paid exactly what we deserved.

 

[andycapps]

with no spouse income and a kid? lol no

I didn't know we were talking about dependents. I thought we were talking about a single person that would presumably have a roommate, like most single people. You obviously can't do it on 7.75 an hour, but $15 as the bare minimum cost for a single person to survive seems like some people are living with a silver spoon. I've done it on much less than that in the past, without having a roommate. Married now with a kid and I make a lot more, but I know how it was then.

 

[KingGondo]

You say that she should do things to increase her pay and then bemoan her striking?

You don't see the contradiction in this line of thinking?

Strikes are for whiners.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Or maybe some of us have worked those low end jobs and know that we got paid exactly what we deserved.

did you work at those companies for decades, with multiple dependents, making the same wage the entire time?

I've never worked a minimum wage job, but I know how much I make, and seeing people who have far more responsibilities than me having to work a much harder job for far less money makes me know they're not being compensated.

 

[remnant]

with no spouse income and a kid? lol no



You say that she should do things to increase her pay and then bemoan her striking?

You don't see the contradiction in this line of thinking?

Her striking will not raise her pay. It's retarded.

If she wants higher pay, go to a store that pays more.Preferably not in an industry where the franchise owner has tight margins on everything.