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[Exentryk]

The presentation in that thread's OP is terrible!


@topic - FFXII, with its story and characters, fell completely flat for me. I did enjoy the gameplay (Gambit customization, hunting marks, the Bazaar, expansive world etc) however. Put in about 140 hours in the game, the longest of any FF at that time.

The battle system for Versus is a lot better, and the story/characters will have a chance at being better than FFXII. Music should be also be superior, with Yoko Shimomura on the helm. World Map should be similar, but will have access to controllable airship, Chocobos, Cars, Tanks etc.

Overall, Versus is looking quite promising in comparison.

 

[Narolf]

The presentation in that thread's OP is terrible!

Seems like a black & white scenario here. A lot of people automatically got fond of it while several others hated it. Same as the current state of the FF franchise, really. Besides, I'm constantly working and re-working on it. Feel free to PM me any suggestion you may have.

 

[CorvoSol]

I think the kids thing is a silly argument. There are great kids in games (see Clementine from The Walking Dead and Nanako from Persona). Hell, even FF has had some great kids (Vivi and Eiko to a lesser extent come to mind).

Badly written characters are badly written, regardless of age.

I agree with this, but I still think Eiko was awful.

I mean, look at the cast of FFIII, though. They're all in that age range, but not horribly annoying. Hope isn't annoying because he's 15, he's annoying because Toriyama is a hack and should have his fingers broken off to prevent him from ruining more games.

 

[SougoXIII]

I agree with this, but I still think Eiko was awful.

I mean, look at the cast of FFIII, though. They're all in that age range, but not horribly annoying. Hope isn't annoying because he's 15, he's annoying because Toriyama is a hack and should have his fingers broken off to prevent him from ruining more games.

Well in the case of FFIII, they didn't even focus on the main characters all that much. It's pretty much a FFI 2.0 in term of story only in this case your party actually have names.

 

[CorvoSol]

Well in the case of FFIII, they didn't even focus on the main characters all that much. It's pretty much a FFI 2.0 in term of story only in this case your party actually have names.

I'm referring to III DS, where the characters have names and faces.

 

[SougoXIII]

I'm referring to III DS, where the characters have names and faces.

I know, but outside their name and faces, what kind of character development did they actually have? There are next none interaction between them and beside their generic outburst at certain points of the story, they're just treated as any other 4 warriors of light and not as individual. Hope in FFXIII have way more focus on him.

 

[CorvoSol]

I know, but outside their name and faces, what kind of character development did they actually have? There are next none interaction between them and beside their generic outburst at certain points of the story, they're just treated as any other 4 warriors of light and not as individual. Hope in FFXIII have way more focus on him.

They all have character development sufficient for their needs. Hope has more focus, sure, but it is all to his detriment, establishing him as a widely hated character for whining and moaning and obsessing.

Meanwhile, Luneth falls in love with a girl, has her die in his arms, and doesn't spend the next twenty hours bitching it up about how we should all feel sorry for him. Ingus undergoes all of Lightning's character development without pissing off anyone. Arc is the requisite loser, getting his ass handed to him all the time, until he takes a bigger one under his wing and helps him grow a pair, but we still never feel the urge to throttle him. And Refia, too.

XIII's cast is a take on III DS', and yet you never hear anyone blame the fall of the franchise on them.

 

[SougoXIII]

They all have character development sufficient for their needs. Hope has more focus, sure, but it is all to his detriment, establishing him as a widely hated character for whining and moaning and obsessing.

Meanwhile, Luneth falls in love with a girl, has her die in his arms, and doesn't spend the next twenty hours bitching it up about how we should all feel sorry for him. Ingus undergoes all of Lightning's character development without pissing off anyone. Arc is the requisite loser, getting his ass handed to him all the time, until he takes a bigger one under his wing and helps him grow a pair, but we still never feel the urge to throttle him. And Refia, too.

XIII's cast is a take on III DS', and yet you never hear anyone blame the fall of the franchise on them.

The reason why people don't seem to care about the FFIII cast as children is because they don't even register as characters over all apart from having a name and a face. Their back stories came be sum up in one line: 'Ignus is your typical White knight with a crush on the princess. Refia is a daughter of a black smith with a rebellious streak. Arc and Luneth are childhood friend.' Their motivation for saving the world is that... the crystal's telling them to. Their development are as generic as they can get and the fact Luneth can fall in love and lose it in the next plot point show you how much the story is focus on them. The characters are just a flavor to the story and not the main attraction.

This is the opposite in FFXIII's case, people have more problem with the characters and the story because that's the only focus of the game. Everything about the game is linear to accommodate the narrative: You have a level cap in each chapter so you can't spend time grinding. There's no sidequest until reaching Pulse so you can't wander off from the narrative. Your paradigms and party is per-determined for you until Pulse and you have to beat the final boss to even unlock the max level for every paradigms.

For 20 hours people have their face stuff with FFXIII's story whether they like it or not. This wouldn't be a problem if the story was any good but well... you know the rest.

 

[CorvoSol]

The reason why people don't seem to care about the FFIII cast as children is because they don't even register as characters over all apart from having a name and a face. Their back stories came be sum up in one line: 'Ignus is your typical White knight with a crush on the princess. Refia is a daughter of a black smith with a rebellious streak. Arc and Luneth are childhood friend.' Their motivation for saving the world is that... the crystal's telling them to. Their development are as generic as they can get and the fact Luneth can fall in love and lose it in the next plot point show you how much the story is focus on them. The characters are just a flavor to the story and not the main attraction.

This is the opposite in FFXIII's case, people have more problem with the characters and the story because that's the only focus of the game. Everything about the game is linear to accommodate the narrative: You have a level cap in each chapter so you can't spend time grinding. There's no sidequest until reaching Pulse so you can't wander off from the narrative. Your paradigms and party is per-determined for you until Pulse and you have to beat the final boss to even unlock the max level for every paradigms.

For 20 hours people have their face stuff with FFXIII's story whether they like it or not. This wouldn't be a problem if the story was any good but well... you know the rest.

I beg to differ. People seem to love FF4's cast, and they get as much development as III's. I gave you brief examples because I didn't feel like sitting around detailing it. But the fact is III's cast has all the same development as XIII's.

"Ingus Snow is a White Knight HERO with a crush obsession with SarahSerah. Ingus Lightning goes from an uptight workaholic to a more relaxed, caring stance."

"Refia Vanille is a redhead with a rebellious streak. She learns the perils of her rebellious ways partway through the journey."

"Luneth Snow is a local idiot hero. His idiocy brings harm to innocent bystanders like Aria Nora."

"Arc Hope is a complete loser who eventually grows a pair after confronting a murderous parent confronting his parent's murderer."

And yet one cast is despised, and the other is inoffensive.

 

[Perfo]

I beg to differ. People seem to love FF4's cast, and they get as much development as III's. I gave you brief examples because I didn't feel like sitting around detailing it. But the fact is III's cast has all the same development as XIII's.

"Ingus Snow is a White Knight HERO with a crush obsession with SarahSerah. Ingus Lightning goes from an uptight workaholic to a more relaxed, caring stance."

"Refia Vanille is a redhead with a rebellious streak. She learns the perils of her rebellious ways partway through the journey."

"Luneth Snow is a local idiot hero. His idiocy brings harm to innocent bystanders like Aria Nora."

"Arc Hope is a complete loser who eventually grows a pair after confronting a murderous parent confronting his parent's murderer."

And yet one cast is despised, and the other is inoffensive.

I prefer XIII's cast to IV's anyway. Lol. Plus you can't really confront FFs from NES/SNES's with the ones made with current technology. Add more lines, voice acting and acting itself and you'll see how annoying all those characters could become to you. I also find Hope one of the less annoying and natural kids I've seen in jRPGs. Take Tales of series for example... there every single character is really bothering to me.

 

[SougoXIII]

I prefer XIII's cast to IV's anyway. Lol. Plus you can't really confront FFs from NES/SNES's with the ones made with current technology. Add more lines, voice acting and acting itself and you'll see how annoying all those characters could become to you. I also find Hope one of the less annoying and natural kids I've seen in jRPGs. Take Tales of series for example... there every single character is really bothering to me.

The only problem that I have with Hope is that he become a motivational speech dispenser o-tron at the later half of the game. Sure he whined a bit in the beginning but his rage was direct a Snow and I can totally sympathise with Hope about that.

 

[jaxword]

I beg to differ. People seem to love FF4's cast, and they get as much development as III's. I gave you brief examples because I didn't feel like sitting around detailing it. But the fact is III's cast has all the same development as XIII's.

"Ingus Snow is a White Knight HERO with a crush obsession with SarahSerah. Ingus Lightning goes from an uptight workaholic to a more relaxed, caring stance."

"Refia Vanille is a redhead with a rebellious streak. She learns the perils of her rebellious ways partway through the journey."

"Luneth Snow is a local idiot hero. His idiocy brings harm to innocent bystanders like Aria Nora."

"Arc Hope is a complete loser who eventually grows a pair after confronting a murderous parent confronting his parent's murderer."

And yet one cast is despised, and the other is inoffensive.

Kind of stretching things here...outside of the opening first hour introductions, the FF3 cast's characterizations play very little role on the outcome of the plot. Or cause any strife between them. Or really do anything in the story beyond getting them all together.

 

[djtiesto]

In FF Versus XIII, we've gotten rid of [in-game] cut scenes that the player can't control. There will either be pre-rendered movies or real-time event scenes that the player can control. These scenes are part of a new game play feature which, as far as I know, hasn't been done anywhere else. It's something that allows for very natural changes in the game experience, a form of expression you don't really see in games.

It's not something you can explain quickly since the experience can change with each situation, but you could say it leads to the sort of storytelling you see more in FPS games than in console RPGs.

Am I the only one who hates this kinda stuff? I prefer a clear delineation of where there's a cutscene and gameplay... when you're running around doing all this crap while the story progresses, it makes it very hard for me to follow (especially if they want you to turn the camera to focus on what's going on, or characters are talking and you can barely hear them/concentrate on what they have to say because of everything else going on). Let the game developer play cameraman for me instead and let me watch at my own pace.

 

[Narolf]

Not the only one. Also prefer delineations, just for the sake of that "in-your-face" transition with the screen shifting in one form or another.

 

[badcrumble]

Not the only one. Also prefer delineations, just for the sake of that "in-your-face" transition with the screen shifting in one form or another.

Eh, separate battle screens are awful if that's what you're talking about. Give me something more akin to Chrono Trigger, FF12, or Kingdom Hearts.

 

[Narolf]

Yeah, just re-read his post and realized I misunderstood it. That's what I was talking about. I think Earthbound remains the best compromise in that regard.

 

[CorvoSol]

Kind of stretching things here...outside of the opening first hour introductions, the FF3 cast's characterizations play very little role on the outcome of the plot. Or cause any strife between them. Or really do anything in the story beyond getting them all together.

No, I think you're missing my point. If FF3's cast was only inoffensive because they were a tiny aspect of the plot, and FF13's cast was super offensive and were a huge part of the plot, then maaaaaaaybe it's time to scale back the characters a bit. 13 spends an enormous amount of time and money dwelling on Hope falling in love with Snow, instead of the myriad other things that time and energy could have gone into. Meanwhile, 3 spends little to no time on its cast and manages to find room for things 13 could only dream of having.

That is a stretch and it does oversimplify it, but at its core, it's still got a valid thought to it. That if the cast of one is so negatively received, and the cast of the other so inoffensive to the player, maybe cues should be taken from the latter, and not the former going forward.

 

[SougoXIII]

No, I think you're missing my point. If FF3's cast was only inoffensive because they were a tiny aspect of the plot, and FF13's cast was super offensive and were a huge part of the plot, then maaaaaaaybe it's time to scale back the characters a bit. 13 spends an enormous amount of time and money dwelling on Hope falling in love with Snow, instead of the myriad other things that time and energy could have gone into. Meanwhile, 3 spends little to no time on its cast and manages to find room for things 13 could only dream of having.

That is a stretch and it does oversimplify it, but at its core, it's still got a valid thought to it. That if the cast of one is so negatively received, and the cast of the other so inoffensive to the player, maybe cues should be taken from the latter, and not the former going forward.

The reason that FF13'cast was super offensive is not only because they were a huge part of the plot but they were also written terribly (That was the whole point of my argument - it is not reasonable to compare FF3's characters to FF13's because FF3's characters were barely there in the story so it is natural that people have no problem with them.)

 

[Marlowe89]

13 spends an enormous amount of time and money dwelling on Hope falling in love with Snow, instead of the myriad other things that time and energy could have gone into.

Believe me, Hope's bond with Snow doesn't even begin to describe the problems with XIII's story.

 

[CorvoSol]

The reason that FF13'cast was super offensive is not only because they were a huge part of the plot but they were also written terribly (That was the whole point of my argument - it is not reasonable to compare FF3's characters to FF13's because FF3's characters were barely there in the story so it is natural that people have no problem with them.)

Ergo, maybe less detailed characters allow for less hatred of a game's cast/plot.

 

[SougoXIII]

Ergo, maybe less detailed characters allow for less hatred of a game's cast/plot.

Well you can have detailed characters that's not written terribly. You just need a good writer to do so - Something Toriyama clearly isn't.

 

[Famassu]

Am I the only one who hates this kinda stuff? I prefer a clear delineation of where there's a cutscene and gameplay... when you're running around doing all this crap while the story progresses, it makes it very hard for me to follow (especially if they want you to turn the camera to focus on what's going on, or characters are talking and you can barely hear them/concentrate on what they have to say because of everything else going on). Let the game developer play cameraman for me instead and let me watch at my own pace.

That is probably not quite the kind of delineation they are aiming for. Think something in the line of Uncharted, where you are not watching a cutscene where you are inside the building while it's going going down, you are PLAYING that situation, and Drake & friends constantly talk to each other during gameplay, but there are still cutscenes when they need that dramatic UMPH or it's otherwise useful and not just simple interaction between the characters. In Versus, it should be that some of those cinematic moments will happen while you're in control (like that scene in the trailer with the airship crashing into the city's buildings while you have control over your characters, or that scene when that carrier crashes into the party Noctis is in, it goes quite seamlessly from Noctis just going around at the party, then the crash and then control continues).

And a lot of the banter between protagonist & friends won't make you stop but will happen as you run around exploring the world. Makes for a more seamless experience. That doesn't mean there are no traditional cutscenes, just that when applicable, they won't make you just sit & watch. I mean, a conversation between Noctis & friends like

"Man, that Behemoth almost killed us. How did it get so far into the city?"
"I don't know, it shouldn't have been able to get past the city defenses."
"They must've used magic."
"But our kingdom has the only crystal left in the world. Summoning a monster that big into the middle of the city past the crystal's defenses needs some serious mojo, it shouldn't be possible without another crystal's power."
"Unless something has happened to ours..."

is much better to have while you're running towards your next goal/exploring a bit after a boss battle than making you sit & watch listening to it (sorry about the shitty made up dialogue, just wanted to give an example). I'd imagine some more dramatic/important moments, even if they are just two or more characters talking, will still get the traditional cutscene treatment.

 

[badcrumble]

Yeah, I'm fairly certain that the whole thing about dialogue happening as you run around the world makes more sense if it's sort of like the banter in the Uncharted games and not like NPCs just speaking as you run past. At least, that's what I hope.

 

[SougoXIII]

That is probably not quite the kind of delineation they are aiming for. Think something in the line of Uncharted, where you are not watching a cutscene where you are inside the building while it's going going down, you are PLAYING that situation, and Drake & friends constantly talk to each other during gameplay, but there are still cutscenes when they need that dramatic UMPH or it's otherwise useful and not just simple interaction between the characters. In Versus, it should be that some of those cinematic moments will happen while you're in control (like that scene in the trailer with the airship crashing into the city's buildings while you have control over your characters, or that scene when that carrier crashes into the party Noctis is in, it goes quite seamlessly from Noctis just going around at the party, then the crash and then control continues).

And a lot of the banter between protagonist & friends won't make you stop but will happen as you run around exploring the world. Makes for a more seamless experience. That doesn't mean there are no traditional cutscenes, just that when applicable, they won't make you just sit & watch. I mean, a conversation between Noctis & friends like

"Man, that Behemoth almost killed us. How did it get so far into the city?"
"I don't know, it shouldn't have been able to get past the city defenses."
"They must've used magic."
"But our kingdom has the only crystal left in the world. Summoning a monster that big into the middle of the city past the crystal's defenses needs some serious mojo, it shouldn't be possible without another crystal's power."
"Unless something has happened to ours..."

is much better to have while you're running towards your next goal/exploring a bit after a boss battle than making you sit & watch listening to it (sorry about the shitty made up dialogue, just wanted to give an example). I'd imagine some more dramatic/important moments, even if they are just two or more characters talking, will still get the traditional cutscene treatment.

Funny enough FFXIII have that when you were walking around on Pulse.