"I Hate Donald Trump, but he might get my vote" Washington Post(Opinion)

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"I mean he may be a horrible fascist actively promoting aggressively racist attitudes, while also being a bit of a fucking idiot, but Hillary lied!"


Fuck these people...
 
zaccheus said:
I don't think it's so much he's willing to discuss the issues, so much as not have to censor his language to not offend anyone. He talks like your kind of racist uncle would at a family get together, and that's what these people respect. Politicians generally have to walk on eggshells when they prepare a speech as to not cause dissent or offend, but Trump doesn't care about offending anyone and the Right respond to this. He's a 'straight-shooter' in their minds.
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This isn't speaking frankly about social issues. He uses belittling language that relies on unproven, insulting stereotypes. He's got a reason why everyone who isn't like him is at fault for something and how they aren't good. People will call that what it is, and being upset that that's happening is just saying you like what you hear.
 
LogicalFallacy said:
I don't think that humans in general want to punch down at others. People who lack confidence want to punch down at others, maybe, but not 'people' in general. If people are content- they have the necessities of life, a decent social sphere of buddies, happy prospects for their future- they won't have much to be mad at. They don't have much reason to spend their time on the internet screaming about black people or what have you. Bullying will persist so long as some people can gain from it, yeah, but I don't know how you solve that without some substantial change in culture. At the very least though, we could try to solve existing stereotypes using legislation and combat new ones as they arise, right?
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I guess there are a lot of people lacking self-confidence out there, then. Do you think every middle manager who treats his subordinates like shit is doing it because he's economically disenfranchised? You basically even admit that a large component of bullying is cultural.

I'm totally in agreement with you. There's much for power to gain from having a large group of unemployed people to drive wages down. Having a consistent voter base for the democratic party every election is pretty nice too. If blacks had it as good as whites did, you'd see more of them turning over to the 'fiscally conservative' mindset portrayed by the author of the Wash Post article this thread's about- they'd be looking for any way to keep their wages from the government. It's how many of the affluent in my area feel. They vote conservative every election because their wealth is more important than social policy.



The issue I have with the Supreme Court justices argument is that we have absolutely no way of knowing ahead of time just how crucial the Supreme Court justice seats will be in the next 8 years. How likely is it that some case will appear that could allow justices to challenge the 15th Amendment or Civil Rights Act? I'm admittedly not so knowledgeable on this front, so maybe these sorts of cases are far more likely than I give them credit for.

My guess on disastermouse's reasoning is the fact that the TPP allows private corporations to sue governments for interfering in any perceivable way with the profitmaking for any enterprise, which I find pretty problematic myself. I would hope that most people do. Is it more problematic than Supreme Court justices? I personally don't know, because I don't know how likely your scenario is. What I do know is the TPP passing will guarantee even more power to elites I do not care for in the slightest.
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1. This is FUD. It does not allow any corporation to sue any government for any reason.

2. The US government has never lost one of these cases, so even if you view the concept itself as unfair, in the context of how it will affect Americans economically, it is probably a net benefit.
 
From OP's linked article:

No Trump campaign buttons or bumper stickers for me. I’m part of the new silent majority: those who don’t like Donald Trump but might vote for him anyway. For many of us, Trump has only one redeeming quality: He isn’t Hillary Clinton. He doesn’t want to turn the United States into a politically correct, free-milk-and-cookies, European-style social democracy where every kid (and adult, too) gets a trophy just for showing up.

Members of this new silent majority, many of us front-wave baby boomers, value hard work and love the United States the way it was. We long for a bygone era when you didn’t need “safe spaces” on college campuses to shelter students from the atrocity of dissenting opinions, lest their sensibilities be offended. We have the reckless notion that college is the one place where sensibilities are supposed to be challenged and debated. Silly us.
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Wow. This actually has me significantly fucking raged. Fuck this guy.
 
The moral of this guy's glorified Facebook rant reads to me as, "I wish the GOP had gone with a candidate who presents my flagrantly bigoted and bootstraps worldview a little more tastefully, but make no mistake I'll take bigotry however I can get it."
 
The Technomancer said:
This is a simplification of what happened. I'll counter it with another simplification: Japanese students at the school weren't pleased with the fact that what was being presented as sushi basically...wasn't, and said "hey if you're going to do it, could you do it right?" And then the whole thing actually wasn't that big of a deal, until like a month later all the sudden some outlet ran a piece about "PC culture run amok"
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Yea, I totally agree that it's a misrespresented version of events, but that's what trump supporters see. They are misguided and are voting based on emotion rather than facts. Their facebook feeds and right wing news sites are publishing and reposting right wing versions of these stories which fit a narrative which is the PC culture running amok, that immigrants are stealing jobs, that obama is running the country into the ground. The internet is supposed to enlighten us, but all it has done is maximize confirmation bias.. It's really scary.

And honestly, it happens on all sides of the debate. I had a buddy that brought up hillary hiring people on craigslists to protest trump rallies while wearing Bernie shirts as if it was fact. I asked him to show me the article, and it turns out it came from a bullshit news source riddled with adware. but since his left wing circle of friends and content aggregates reported this version of the story (which as far as i can tell never occured) as yet another reason that hillary is crooked it has already entered the brain space as truth to them. and i voted for bernie.
 
Sinoox said:
This place is an echo chamber. Get used to the phrase President Trump, you'll be hearing it for eight years.
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Please share with us your brilliant, classy, and objective opinion on the matter, GAF poster with the "Hillary for Prison 2016" avatar.
 
Sinoox said:
This place is an echo chamber. Get used to the phrase President Trump, you'll be hearing it for eight years.
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trump-mocks-disabled-reporter-cnn-usa-today.jpg
 
disastermouse said:
That's a good question, and one you should be asking sincerely if you want to see him defeated. Trump's appeal is contextual and correlative to the utter failure of international neoliberal institutions. Without that context, he is and remains a clown and he has no appeal to anyone. People who throw around the word 'privilege' should look at themselves to see if perhaps there isn't some privilege that they have that allows them to continue to lengthen and make worse the very context that allows a clown like Trump to rise. Who's pain are you ignoring?

But no. It must be that people are racists, bigots, and idiots, and for some strange reason there are so many more of them this cycle.

It's weird because even from a self-preservation standpoint, even allowing some modest branches of democratic socialism would prevent the total failure, but it literally is unthinkable in the ideology. The reality cannot be acknowledged. It needs a slapping to its senses and I'd rather it come from a Trump who bemoans the loss of America's commercial greatness than one who wails about our lack of military power and primacy.
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You're conveniently ignoring the fact that Trump's unfavorability numbers are at an all-time low. There are few presidential candidates at this stage that have ever been this unpopular, so your idea that he has some universal or at least far-reaching appeal is really quite laughable when you actually look at the data.

His rise to power is simple: he appeals to the group of people who have failed to properly understand the modern trends of social rights and a globalized economy. On the one hand, the explosion of certain industries that have resulted in deep changes to global lifestyle and economy has caught many people off guard, and as the old adage goes people fear what they don't understand. On the other, Trump is one of the few people to tap into a primal rage that has festered underneath modern society. In recent decades the changes have been relatively swift and fervent. What people could freely express 20, 30 years ago is not only not kosher, but just really rotten shit to say and believe today. Trump promises these people that it's OK, you can continue to think your way and let's all get you rewarded for it. You're the one who's truly important!

Trump, along with many other things, peddles the idea that the complexities of the modern world and the equally complex solutions (if there even are any) 1) don't exist, and 2) have easy solutions. Angry about the fact that the kinds of jobs you used to have don't exist in the country anymore? It's those evil Chinese!! Frustrated with the fact that your dollars have less and less purchasing power? It's the Mexicans coming to fuck everything up!! Disappointed that we can't go at war with our worst enemies and win in glorious battle like we did in Korea? It's because of our PC culture and secret-Muslim Obama is preventing us from just nuking a bunch of dumb backwards villages to smithereens!

You know those "Doctors hate him! Here's one weird trick invented by a housewife to erase wrinkles!" ads? We all poke fun at these ads but they appeal for a reason, and Trump's appeal is much of the exact same thing.

1. "Doctors hate him!" <- decry the establishment. Those dumb, ultra-educated doctors haven't been able to give me the easy answers I want!

2. "Here's one weird trick" <- "trick" is a key word. The answer is easy to grasp, we just needed to wait around for someone to discover it and all our problems are solved

3. "Invented by a housewife" <- it's KEY that the inventor of this trick is an outsider from the establishment. If they're highly qualified and educated people, not only are they far removed form the audience they want to appeal, but they also are seen as part of the "establishment" that we already decided to hate in #1 above.

4. "Erase wrinkles" <- there's the obvious but painful reality that everyone gets wrinkles as they age. Nobody likes it but it just happens. But if we listen to random people who peddle "weird tricks", suddenly we can have easy answers to previously unsolvable problems.

And this is Trump's appeal in a nutshell. A second-rate internet clickbait ad. "The establishment hates him! Here's one weird trick invented by an outside rich person to solve all the problems of modern society including social and economic issues!" You can imagine just how much of an appeal this has to people who just want easy answers to their problems and don't want to hear about what people who aren't like them have to say.

OrangeGrayBlue said:
The moral of this guy's glorified Facebook rant reads to me as, "I wish the GOP had gone with a candidate who presents my flagrantly bigoted and bootstraps worldview a little more tastefully, but make no mistake I'll take bigotry however I can get it."
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ding ding ding
 
zaccheus said:
I dont intend on voting for Trump, so lets get that out of the way before GAF freaks out on me..
From what I gather, the people who are voting for trump don't really care for his policies or his terrible business record, they instead respond to his willingness to talk frankly about things that the 'liberal extremists' get really wrapped up about. They want to stick it to 'progressives' and how they quickly label conservatives as racists and bigots for having a dissenting opinion on things like immigration and lgbt rights. They are like MRA on 4chan, or the gamergate dudes.

My personal opinion is that there's no gray area for discussion on a lot of these issues. You are quickly labeled and shouted down, no matter what stance you take. It's become extremely partisan, at least online, and that makes any semblance of an intelligent conversation turn into shouting matches.
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You are on point.
 
Hillary Clinton is the only politician that could be argued to have the "silent majority" actually.

Her supporters are way less loud and prominent than Bernie and Trump supporters but she dominated Bernie in votes and is massively ahead of Trump in the polls.
 
Quixzlizx said:
Please share with us your brilliant, classy, and objective opinion on the matter, GAF poster with the "Hillary for Prison 2016" avatar.
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Hillary Clinton is a criminal. She didn't follow protocol with her emails, deleted over 30,000 of them to cover her tracks. At the same time she goes after legitimate whistle blowers like Snowden and journalists like Assange for revealing the true nature of government. She receives millions of dollars from countries that abuse women and gay people. She supported the Iraq war, TPP, NAFTA, and receives millions from Wallstreet and will not release her transcripts.

I could go on and on and on...
 
disastermouse said:
You don't have to be a bigot to vote Trump. I think that it could be fatal for anti-Trumpers to insist that all Trump voters are bigots, as it won't allow them to address the actual concerns of people who aren't racist but may be inclined to vote for Trump anyway.
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You don't have to be a bigot, but you definitely have to be okay with bigotry taking over America. At the very least that makes you something like a bigot once removed.
 
.. lol I'm not a fan of the whole safespace/trigger bs and over pc college campuses either.. it's an insult to people with real PTSD. It's cringy and pretty sad.. and small potatoes compared to Trump's bs. Sticking it to university students who are severely out of touch is no reason to burn down the country, fucking idiots. Just make fun of the kids and move on. Fuck Trump.
 
Sinoox said:
Hillary Clinton is a criminal. She didn't follow protocol with her emails, deleted over 30,000 of them to cover her tracks. At the same time she goes after legitimate whistle blowers like Snowden and journalists like Assange for revealing the true nature of government. She receives millions of dollars from countries that abuse women and gay people. She supported the Iraq war, the TPP, NAFTA, and receives millions from Wallstreet and will not release her transcripts.

I could go on and on and on.
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This is boring "politicians are corrupt" stuff. They all are, and it's all transparent like pro wrestling. Look deeper than this.
 
I know of several members of my family who are voting Trump (or at least they were the last time I asked). The reasons varied. One person is just an idiot(supported Ted Cruz in the primary because he was "the moderate"). There's not really much to say about this person other than their political thoughts just don't make any sense even after you account for any bias. Another is just a standard partisan who keeps talking about Hillary is going to jail and Bengazi and whatever else talk radio is going on about. Just shrugs whenever Trump himself is mentioned. Another one actually used to be more left, but has moved to the right recently and really hates trade deals like the TPP. Another one just seems to have lost hope with traditional politics and sees Trump as someone who *could* shake things up.

Some others I'm not sure on, like one who was just mad that Cruz didn't need a green card and they did. When there are only two choices, reasons will vary and not everyone will be excited about their choice. I'm in the "hold my nose and vote Hillary" group myself.
 
Sinoox said:
Hillary Clinton is a criminal. She didn't follow protocol with her emails, deleted over 30,000 of them to cover her tracks. At the same time she goes after legitimate whistle blowers like Snowden and journalists like Assange for revealing the true nature of government. She receives millions of dollars from countries that abuse women and gay people. She supported the Iraq war, TPP, NAFTA, and receives millions from Wallstreet and will not release her transcripts.

I could go on and on and on...
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You have not actually described any criminal action.
 
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
Hillary Clinton is the only politician that could be argued to have the "silent majority" actually.

Her supporters are way less loud and prominent than Bernie and Trump supporters but she dominated Bernie in votes and is massively ahead of Trump in the polls.
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Silent majority does not refer to whose supporters are the least "loud".
 
BajiBoxer said:
These people have been calling Barak Obama a communist for at least 8 years now.
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I really don't want to vote for anyone or any party that gets us closer to guaranteed income or any more ways to throw more money into the government dumpster fire of mismanagement, fraud and waste.

But then there's trump that also is a dumpster fire of mismanagement, fraud, and waste.

You can't win. And you're probably a racist or bigot anyway. So just don't vote. I'm closest to choosing this option.
 
Sinoox said:
Hillary Clinton is a criminal. She didn't follow protocol with her emails, deleted over 30,000 of them to cover her tracks. At the same time she goes after legitimate whistle blowers like Snowden and journalists like Assange for revealing the true nature of government. She receives millions of dollars from countries that abuse women and gay people. She supported the Iraq war, TPP, NAFTA, and receives millions from Wallstreet and will not release her transcripts.

I could go on and on and on...
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Don't you have to actually be charged with something to be called a criminal. Yes, yes you do.

I wish people that keep saying this would enlighten us to this crime she was found guilty of. Trump is accused of stuff as well, and the same people sing his innocence.

Edit: oh banned. Well this applies to anybody that says this.
 
7DollarHagane said:
I really don't want to vote for anyone or any party that gets us closer to guaranteed income or any more ways to throw more money into the government dumpster fire of mismanagement, fraud and waste.

But then there's trump that also is a dumpster fire of mismanagement, fraud, and waste.

You can't win. And you're probably a racist or bigot anyway. So just don't vote. I'm closest to choosing this option.
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There are people running for president other than Hillary and Trump, you know.
 
7DollarHagane said:
I really don't want to vote for anyone or any party that gets us closer to guaranteed income or any more ways to throw more money into the government dumpster fire of mismanagement, fraud and waste.

But then there's trump that also is a dumpster fire of mismanagement, fraud, and waste.

You can't win. And you're probably a racist or bigot anyway. So just don't vote. I'm closest to choosing this option.
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There are many libertarians who are in favor of a guaranteed income because it is simple to administer and will replace our current welfare programs, which they consider to be a dumpster fire of mismanagement, fraud, and waste.
 
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
This is boring "politicians are corrupt" stuff. They all are, and it's all transparent like pro wrestling. Look deeper than this.
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What are you talking about man? Trump is clean, super clean. Never has done anything sketchy, unethical, or immoral to get to the top and make millions. A complete gentlemen, scholar, and Christian. Never told a lie a real Honest Abe.

Oh, well he hasn't been a politician, guess I don't have a point then.
 
Sinoox said:
Hillary Clinton is a criminal. She didn't follow protocol with her emails, deleted over 30,000 of them to cover her tracks. At the same time she goes after legitimate whistle blowers like Snowden and journalists like Assange for revealing the true nature of government. She receives millions of dollars from countries that abuse women and gay people. She supported the Iraq war, TPP, NAFTA, and receives millions from Wallstreet and will not release her transcripts.

I could go on and on and on...
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You're regurgitating GOP rhetoric without offering any substantial criticism against Hillary Clinton.
 
A Human Becoming said:
Silent majority does not refer to whose supporters are the least "loud".
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The silent majority is an unspecified large group of people in a country or group who do not express their opinions publicly.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_majority

The Silent Majority just used to be racist white dues... But now the silent majority is a combination of black men and women, the disabled, LGBT individuals, Hispanics, Asians, Jews, single women, post docs, and people that overall just have too much shit to do to be loud but do support Hillary.
 
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_majority

The Silent Majority just used to be racist white dues... But now the silent majority is a combination of black men and women, the disabled, LGBT individuals, Hispanics, Asians, Jews, single women, post docs, and people that overall just have too much shit to do to be loud but do support Hillary.
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You're not giving any real support, just hearsay. Again, just because they're less loud doesn't mean they're the silent majority.
 
A Human Becoming said:
You're not giving any real support, just hearsay. Again, just because they're less loud doesn't mean they're the silent majority.
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I mean, they are less loud and they do seem to make up a majority of Americans based on Hillary's success in votes and polls?

I'm just trying to be funny and point out the changing demographics of the United States since the 1960s, but I don't think my argument is that outlandish.
 
I couldn't get through all of that garbage. These kind of people make me sick and I hope they go back to the hole they crawled out of after this election.
 
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
Hillary Clinton is the only politician that could be argued to have the "silent majority" actually.

Her supporters are way less loud and prominent than Bernie and Trump supporters but she dominated Bernie in votes and is massively ahead of Trump in the polls.
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Truth ^ all day.

Everyone thats not ranting about building a wall on Facebook, or crying about SJWs, the "silent majority", are quite likely voting Hillary.
 
Quixzlizx said:
Do you think every middle manager who treats his subordinates like shit is doing it because he's economically disenfranchised?
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Fair point. I don't know the particular source of why people are assholes to each other in every instance, no, but I don't really know who does. Some people are assholes. We'll deal with them differently.

Quixzlizx said:
You basically even admit that a large component of bullying is cultural.
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Because I know there's a cultural component to it. As I said originally, I didn't claim that economics would solve everything- just that it makes a large dent for a lot of people who are swayed by reason. If there's no empirical evidence of a sort of behavior anymore a lot of people will stop believing in it. I don't think you'll find that statement disagreeable. For some groups racism can be the 'glue' that keeps them together, so even if reality changes they'll hold on to those thoughts because it's what's necessary to keep their unity. The KKK come to mind as an example of this sort of group. I don't think economics solves those types of people, but I don't really know what does. Shaming them doesn't seem to work either, they still exist after all.

Quixzlizx said:
1. This is FUD. It does not allow any corporation to sue any government for any reason.

2. The US government has never lost one of these cases, so even if you view the concept itself as unfair, in the context of how it will affect Americans economically, it is probably a net benefit.
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Well, I didn't say any reason. The part of the TPP that WikiLeaks leaked last year related to this issue can
empower foreign firms to directly “sue” signatory governments in extrajudicial investor-state dispute settlement (ISDS) tribunals over domestic policies that apply equally to domestic and foreign firms that foreign firms claim violate their new substantive investor rights. There they could demand taxpayer compensation for domestic financial, health, environmental, land use and other policies and government actions they claim undermine TPP foreign investor privileges, such as the “right” to a regulatory framework that conforms to their “expectations.”
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(from the analysis pdf on the page I linked above)

So no, it's not any reason. It's reasons that conform to the above limits. Those limits look pretty relaxed to me. Certainly not harsh limits, that's for sure.

Even if the US government has never lost one of these cases, what about other governments involved with the treaty? If as stated above a foreign firm finds some undesirable worker friendly legislation in Mexican governance, and manages to remove it, doesn't that mean a potentially worse off Mexican working class? Why should I care only about my nation? Even if a foreign firm winning a hypothetical ISDS tribunal meant I could buy their products a little cheaper at the store, that's still a loss for the Mexican working class. Someone's going to be losing. It might not be you or me, but it'll be someone. I'd rather the elites who perpetuate this stuff lose than you or me or any other working class members.
 
Quixzlizx said:
There are many libertarians who are in favor of a guaranteed income because it is simple to administer and will replace our current welfare programs, which they consider to be a dumpster fire of mismanagement, fraud, and waste.
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Trading in one fraud laden handout program for another while likely reducing payments to those who might need it most and increasing to those who simply aren't trying or don't care seems like the worst idea of all time.

I'm sorry but I don't think that the money that goes to someone born developmentally disabled, the elderly, disabled in the line of duty should suffer because "robots took my jobs". I don't see how you continue to help with serious and expensive medical expenses as well as paying out everyone else too.
 
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
I mean, they are less loud and they do seem to make up a majority of Americans based on Hillary's success in votes and polls?

I'm just trying to be funny and point out the changing demographics of the United States since the 1960s, but I don't think my argument is that outlandish.
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Votes in the primary. Primary season is different, you know that. You can't apply a silent majority label when such a small percentage of voters participated. Those who voted probably do share their opinions more than regular voters.
 
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