Aaronology
Member
Pfft, these people claim to admire Trump for speaking his mind and telling it like it is while displaying a complete inability to do that themselves. What cowards.
"I Hate Donald Trump, but he might get my vote" Washington Post(Opinion)
- Thread starter SlickShoesRUCrazy
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Kind of like how if Bernie had been elected, you'd see millions of people mobilized and waiting outside the Capitol and banging on their lawmakers doors for every single progressive bill? Yeah, sure bub.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Well, opinions and assholes and everything about that
I am actually astounded by the amount of people voting Trump as a reaction to "PC culture". Here in Canada, I actually have one Filipino friend and one Pakistani friend, both supporting Trump because people like Milo Yiannopoulos have convinced them that being anti-status quo is the most important thing in an election. Like lol.
Guess this is the crowd that think racism and misogyny don't exist anymore.
Guess this is the crowd that think racism and misogyny don't exist anymore.
I know a lot of them think this planet and everything on it and around it was put here for us to use by God. God will take care of everything, when the world ends, as long as you say a stupid prayer, you're in heaven so it won't matter.
I kind of agree with her. I'm all for treating everyone with respect, but the tumblr style "check your privilege" political correctness makes my eyeballs roll out of my sockets. Still think Trump is the Antichrist coated in cheeto dust though.
This alone should have ended his campaign.
Hillary Clinton actively discusses autism and helping the disabled. Trump mocks them.
WHERE IS THE EQUIVALENCE? It's infuriating. I guess people just don't give a shit about the less fortunate, at all. A close friend has an autistic son and implored her baby boomer conservative parents to think about the fact that the person representing their party doesn't give a shit about her kid.
They're still voting for Trump. Politics is more important than family to some people.
Well they're Canadian, so they won't have to deal with it like us.¯\_(ツ
_/¯spiderman123
Member
And it will continue under him. The guy is a panderer, not a visionary. He licks more bum than a cat.
EmptyCanO'wupass
Member
I feel like that fear of someone getting offended is coming more from inside your own head than reality. I've never seen someone in the trans community actually get angry over someone with obviously good intentions using incorrect terminology, not in real life anyway. I see a lot of people express the same fears about being attacked for using the wrong terms, but in my experience trans and genderqueer people are happy just to see someone trying to understand us, even if they don't have it quite right yet.
Online people are more assholish about it sometimes, but people are more assholish about everything online.
As to this, I think the issue is that so many of the "differing opinions" that people complain about getting shut down are opinions or claims that just aren't fact based. I just graduated from a large, liberal public university, and in my experience anytime one of those differing opinions got shut down it was less a case of "I don't agree with you so shut up!" and more a case of "The opinions your trying to push contradict clear evidence and data or history, so please stop trying to spread that bullshit in an academic environment." Students are just sick of having to treat every "opinion" as inherently equal and deserving of air time even when it's clearly not fact or reality based. We're just calling out the bullshit more openly.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Bernie needs to speak up about this issue.
He himself has said time and time again that he won't vote Trump.
He himself has said time and time again that he won't vote Trump.
I dont intend on voting for Trump, so lets get that out of the way before GAF freaks out on me..
From what I gather, the people who are voting for trump don't really care for his policies or his terrible business record, they instead respond to his willingness to talk frankly about things that the 'liberal extremists' get really wrapped up about. They want to stick it to 'progressives' and how they quickly label conservatives as racists and bigots for having a dissenting opinion on things like immigration and lgbt rights. They are like MRA on 4chan, or the gamergate dudes.
My personal opinion is that there's no gray area for discussion on a lot of these issues. You are quickly labeled and shouted down, no matter what stance you take. It's become extremely partisan, at least online, and that makes any semblance of an intelligent conversation turn into shouting matches.
From what I gather, the people who are voting for trump don't really care for his policies or his terrible business record, they instead respond to his willingness to talk frankly about things that the 'liberal extremists' get really wrapped up about. They want to stick it to 'progressives' and how they quickly label conservatives as racists and bigots for having a dissenting opinion on things like immigration and lgbt rights. They are like MRA on 4chan, or the gamergate dudes.
My personal opinion is that there's no gray area for discussion on a lot of these issues. You are quickly labeled and shouted down, no matter what stance you take. It's become extremely partisan, at least online, and that makes any semblance of an intelligent conversation turn into shouting matches.
These people have been calling Barak Obama a communist for at least 8 years now.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
What's interesting about claiming to not be a bigot while still supporting Trump as a form of protest voting is this: It's nice that you're not racist. You're just okay with propping up a racist, misogynist clown who panders to white supremacists, assorted lunatics, and neo-nazis. Intentionally emboldens them. And promises to create their paradise on Earth once he's in office. And he may actually be clinically demented.
To insist that's still way, way better than Hillary Clinton, who at her worst is merely another mediocre politician playing the usual Washington game, just comes across as a touch dishonest.
As for the author of the article, they comes across as "good old days" as fuck. Nostalgic for that time when everything was great for middle class, straight white folk in the freshly minted suburbs north of the red line, and pretty shitty for everyone else.
To insist that's still way, way better than Hillary Clinton, who at her worst is merely another mediocre politician playing the usual Washington game, just comes across as a touch dishonest.
As for the author of the article, they comes across as "good old days" as fuck. Nostalgic for that time when everything was great for middle class, straight white folk in the freshly minted suburbs north of the red line, and pretty shitty for everyone else.
I don't think her examples are really relevant to Trump's breed of anti-PC, which is completely soaked into demonizing minorities and threatening their core values and rights.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Trump has autism policies:
1. Ban vaccines since vaccines cause autism
2. Appoint to Surgeon General man that believes autism doesn't exist.
I'd love to hear what intelligent conversations can be made on Trump's outright bigotry and racism. Seems like people who don't like their ignorance to be pointed out go with the persecution complex.
EatinOlives
Member
Stopped reading right there.
Wake me up when one of these numbskulls come up with an original thought of their own instead of spouting bullshit buzzwords like "politically correct buhuhuhu!!!"
None of these limp-dick attempts at trying to distance themselves from Trump while simultaneously parroting the same bullshit talking points as him does anything to save face. You're still a Trump supporter barely concealing your disdain toward minorities. You say you're against mincing words, so just own up to that fact instead of trying to pretend your opinion is any deeper than it really is.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
uncredited male
Member
"Might"
Thanks for normalizing Mitt Romney Donald.
Thanks for normalizing Mitt Romney Donald.
TestOfTide
Banned
So basically your decision is based on literal fantasy land ideas (because let's be real, when has a loss from the left ever led to a leftward shift in politics).
You still haven't answered my question:
How is a shitty free trade deal worse than a Supreme Court that would rule to disenfranchise millions of minorities?
I mean, there's no grey area on racism. There really isn't much discussion to be had there.
LogicalFallacy
Member
What breeds racism? Most people I talk to imply that their personal experience with x or y group is the primary contributor. If I run into many cases of x or y group acting in a specific way, I'll begin to associate that sort of behavior with that group. In my case, my growing up in wealthy California city has afforded me the chance to live in a diverse community full of pretty intelligent and well meaning people. Other people's personal experiences are different because group x or y behave differently based on the conditions that surround them. I think this is all pretty basic stuff.
I'm of the mind that the most important condition that determines how people behave is economics. This primarily means access to good education, access to university, and access to low skill jobs (and high skill jobs once you complete your degree). People who don't have economic opportunity- black, white, asian, hispanic, or what have you- are going to act in a way that some people might deem undesirable. They're going to try to find alternative avenues of getting by because there isn't as clear a path to success in their lives as others who were born into more affluent communities. The best way of combating this is economic legislation- legislation like reparations that will give ailing black communities the capital they need to construct proper infrastructure to provide a path to success for their communities.
No, this doesn't solve racism immediately. I won't claim to say it does. But all judgements don't just come out of nowhere. Racism's roots come from the economic conditions of slavery, and they continue because many black communities are impoverished and lack economic opportunity. The best way to combat racism is to create a scenario in which the typical stereotypes or judgements that come with it no longer apply to the world that people live in. When there are no examples to point to of that stereotype, it'll disappear from popular thought. Racism takes more than just economic policy to combat, but economic policy would make a huge dent over time in mindsets of those who are racist.
EatinOlives
Member
With Trump, there's no real gray area. One can like a subset of his ideas as much as they like, but at some point they have to realize the completely abhorrent shit he spouts on a nearly daily basis. If that person then proceed to support him anyway, at worst they're as racist/bigoted/xenophobic as he is, or at best they come from a position of privilege and just don't give a shit (which is another form of racism/bigotry/xenophobia in and of itself).
Trump has ingrained these shitty ideas into himself and his platform with such fervor and frequency that there's no real way to divorce the small subset of whatever one might find agreeable about his platform with the rest of the rotten stuff he says. He comes as a package, nobody can just pick and choose.
DietRob
i've been begging for over 5 years.
I've had to tell a few people now that we as a country are better off with the 'devil we know' than the devil that is also insane, petty, and racist.
I still don't think Trump has a chance in hell. The shift in voting demographics will not allow it. There aren't going to be enough of these #NeverHer voters to make a difference. They are however incredibly ignorant and annoying.
I still don't think Trump has a chance in hell. The shift in voting demographics will not allow it. There aren't going to be enough of these #NeverHer voters to make a difference. They are however incredibly ignorant and annoying.
To play Devil's advocate, I think he's referring to PC culture. If he is, I can give one example that's gaming related.
Around the time The Witcher 3 came out, Feminist Frequency (whose content I usually enjoy) criticized the game on basis of the portrayal and verbal slurs against women. I could see something like this being a bit more grey (as the game is set in an equivalent of medieval Poland, though still has very capable women characters to boot) as opposed to simply labeling the game and its creators as "misogynist".
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
At some point you have to ask how someone can cope with the optics of supporting someone who is so openly and blatantly bigoted.
People love to punch down. You can "solve" all of the reasons, and people will invent new ones.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
All of this assumes black people generally having it worse in every social and lifestyle category is an accident or effect of the economy rather than a continued effort (that happens to use money as part of the control) to keep them where they're at.
Whoever has the power will always find a new way. You have to dismantle the power structure rather than just assume that a fairer distribution of wealth will give black people more power. No one gives up power. It always has to be taken. Which is how racism will continue even still under your ideology.
TestOfTide
Banned
Maybe economics can affect people's thought processes somewhat, but in the meantime making sure that minorities get to vote is more important than whatever affects the TPP would have. The way to combat racism most immediately is to give voice and power to minorities. That means making voting easier and reducing gerrymandering .
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
nothing worse than a european style social demorcracy with their high qulity of life and low murders and incarceration of their citizens. Make America great again no milk and no cookies.
Dumber than the brexit :/
Dumber than the brexit :/
disastermouse
Banned
That's a good question, and one you should be asking sincerely if you want to see him defeated. Trump's appeal is contextual and correlative to the utter failure of international neoliberal institutions. Without that context, he is and remains a clown and he has no appeal to anyone. People who throw around the word 'privilege' should look at themselves to see if perhaps there isn't some privilege that they have that allows them to continue to lengthen and make worse the very context that allows a clown like Trump to rise. Who's pain are you ignoring?
But no. It must be that people are racists, bigots, and idiots, and for some strange reason there are so many more of them this cycle.
It's weird because even from a self-preservation standpoint, even allowing some modest branches of democratic socialism would prevent the total failure, but it literally is unthinkable in the ideology. The reality cannot be acknowledged. It needs a slapping to its senses and I'd rather it come from a Trump who bemoans the loss of America's commercial greatness than one who wails about our lack of military power and primacy.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
The TPP is not the problem, and I can't believe that you of all people don't get this. The US has not lost money or wealth from trade deals. We have quite a bit more than we had before, but its distributed differently now, and that is a problem entirely within our borders. I am flabbergasted that you think a Trump presidency will somehow accelerate the necessary wealth redistribution
There are seemingly so many more racists and bigots because their views were becoming unacceptable and then Trump came along and made it acceptable again
He also bemoans that though.
Aaronology
Member
In what way does Donald Trump speak frankly about social issues, zaccheus?
Yekshemesh
Member
Yes, absolutely. You know how Trump and his supporters don't like like political correctness? Well here's some non political correctness.
Right, there is a need to be overtly PC now adays, which is definitely rooted in something noble, we want everyone to feel included. However, it can be taken to an extreme and can be used to completely dismiss people's points of views. Like the university school cafeteria that had to remove sushi since it's cultural appropriation. The internet making a big deal about casting white actors in Ghost in the Shell, while the japanese laugh and don't care. We live in a culture that doesn't want to offend anyone and we go to extremes that may involve censoring. So, a lot of Trump supporters are sick of that kind of stuff.
I don't think it's so much he's willing to discuss the issues, so much as not have to censor his language to not offend anyone. He talks like your kind of racist uncle would at a family get together, and that's what these people respect. Politicians generally have to walk on eggshells when they prepare a speech as to not cause dissent or offend, but Trump doesn't care about offending anyone and the Right respond to this. He's a 'straight-shooter' in their minds.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
No, you can have a reasoned argument against that without supporting donald trump. Plenty of people do.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
This is a simplification of what happened. I'll counter it with another simplification: Japanese students at the school weren't pleased with the fact that what was being presented as sushi basically...wasn't, and said "hey if you're going to do it, could you do it right?" And then the whole thing actually wasn't that big of a deal, until like a month later all the sudden some outlet ran a piece about "PC culture run amok"
LogicalFallacy
Member
I don't think that humans in general want to punch down at others. People who lack confidence want to punch down at others, maybe, but not 'people' in general. If people are content- they have the necessities of life, a decent social sphere of buddies, happy prospects for their future- they won't have much to be mad at. They don't have much reason to spend their time on the internet screaming about black people or what have you. Bullying will persist so long as some people can gain from it, yeah, but I don't know how you solve that without some substantial change in culture. At the very least though, we could try to solve existing stereotypes using legislation and combat new ones as they arise, right?
I'm totally in agreement with you. There's much for power to gain from having a large group of unemployed people to drive wages down. Having a consistent voter base for the democratic party every election is pretty nice too. If blacks had it as good as whites did, you'd see more of them turning over to the 'fiscally conservative' mindset portrayed by the author of the Wash Post article this thread's about- they'd be looking for any way to keep their wages from the government. It's how many of the affluent in my area feel. They vote conservative every election because their wealth is more important than social policy.
The issue I have with the Supreme Court justices argument is that we have absolutely no way of knowing ahead of time just how crucial the Supreme Court justice seats will be in the next 8 years. How likely is it that some case will appear that could allow justices to challenge the 15th Amendment or Civil Rights Act? I'm admittedly not so knowledgeable on this front, so maybe these sorts of cases are far more likely than I give them credit for.
My guess on disastermouse's reasoning is the fact that the TPP allows private corporations to sue governments for interfering in any perceivable way with the profitmaking for any enterprise, which I find pretty problematic myself. I would hope that most people do. Is it more problematic than Supreme Court justices? I personally don't know, because I don't know how likely your scenario is. What I do know is the TPP passing will guarantee even more power to elites I do not care for in the slightest.
Unknown One
Member
Sounds like Brexit voters. Tons of them regret their stupid votes now.
disastermouse
Banned
No, I don't think that's how it would work. I do think, however, that it would force capitalism to do what it needs to do to preserve itself just a little bit longer. It would allow the ideology to save face by saying, 'Of course we are opposed to it in principle, but we can't win elections without acknowledging it.'
The biggest problem really is that the institutions are so entrenched that they have to be incredibly weakened to become dislodged and since the only alternative to neoliberal orthodoxy is from the right, by the time the right rises in power sufficient to overthrow it, it'll also be too powerful to rein in.
Neoliberal ideology needs a hard wake up punch in the face. I'd prefer it come from the left, but it's coming either way. I'd rather it be Trump than someone more dangerous at a time when these divisions are even further exploited and exploitable.
Think of it like this: Trump isn't the category 5 hurricane that levels your entire eastern seaboard, he's the level 3 that scares you into acknowledging that your dykes are insufficient and facing the wrong direction. Bernie could have been better.
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