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[linsivvi]

But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States or to his neighbors, that the Iraqi economy is in shambles, that the Iraqi military a fraction of its former strength, and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history. I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a U.S. occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences. I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of al-Qaida. I am not opposed to all wars. I'm opposed to dumb wars.

.

 

[General Choomin]

Not just the US, but the entire international system. What's the point of reducing nukes, chemical weapons, or creating pollution requirements if the world just turns it's back on those committing genocide because it's too far away. If some nation doesn't step up and scold Assad he has free reign to smoke everyone as long as it's within his borders.

What happened in Syria was not genocide unless you count what the rebels and their allies have been up to. Unless you believe that the government in Syria is implementing a policy to kill all the sunnis, which is total nonsense, then it isn't genocide.

The rebel terrorists, however, are sectarians who are on a war path of ethnic cleansing and actual genocide. Leveling entire towns because the majority of the people their have the wrong religion.

Also, I would like to point out that it isn't our duty or anyone elses duty do teach any other nation a "lesson". If the USA cared about the feelings of the international community on what is and isn't civilized, it would stop making DU weapons, nuclear weapons, cluster bombs, and land mines. Should another nation teach the USA a lesson for using these terrible weapons of war banned by 95% of all nations? Should they invade your town or bomb the shit out of it killing your family so they can teach our blood thirsty president not to use them?

 

[Simplet]

"Young pacifist intellectuals are secretly fascists" is a pretty dopey conclusion to make and doesn't seem to jive with admitting your opponents can be both honest and intelligent.

The Carlyle bit is something I'd expect from Jonah Goldberg.

The majority of pacifists either belong to obscure religious sects or are simply humanitarians who object to taking life and prefer not to follow their thoughts beyond that point. But there is a minority of intellectual pacifists...

This is simply the truth, especially about the french pacifists before the beginning of WW2. I can give you a list of names if you're interested.

 

[Deified Data]

What? Did you even read the quote? All these people who are vehemently against Syrian intervention, where were you when Russia invaded Georgia?

I love how people always criticize the US for supporting Iraq recently for helping them attack Iran; where were they criticizing Russia for SELLING chemical weapons to Assad in the first place?

You caught me, I didn't even read the Orwell quote because I just felt like quoting someone, anyone, or whatever. Sure.

Seriously though, if this were a "post stupid quotes" thread we'd have something to discuss, but I fail to see how the quote pertains to the current situation unless you're implying that anyone who opposes military action in Syria is a freedom-hating hypocrite. There's no way you'd imply something that silly. At least I hope not.

A short answer to your question - most people are short-sighted and only view the global stage from an American perspective, right or wrong. They might hear of Russia doing something nefarious but they don't care as much because it's not their country, it doesn't effect them. A good lesson to learn: never attribute something to hypocrisy that could more easily be explained by ignorance.

 

[Rentahamster]

A good lesson to learn: never attribute something to hypocrisy that could more easily be explained by ignorance.

Which is interesting since that sentiment is derived from a quote from "Logic of Empire", a short story by Robert Heinlein, another, err, "controversial" author:


"You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

 

[RustyNails]

All conflicts are exactly the same. Ww2 = vietnam = Libya = Syria.



Some people are just stupid.

 

[Poindexter]

I understand the decision to go with allies/NATO, but personally I did not support it.

How old were you at the time, bro?

 

[Sanky Panky]

Iraq, Vietnam, Syria it's all the same to some people. US evil war mongers regardless of circumstance.

Their similarities end and will likely continue to end in us finding out years later that the military intervention was made for economic and corporate interests, and that an attack was indeed manufactured/known by said interested parties to drum up the gullible public.

Some truths and methods will be perpetuated, despite people gathering at Kerry's house.

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

Their similarities end and will likely continue to end in us finding out years later that the military intervention was made for economic and corporate interests, and that an attack was indeed manufactured/known by said interested parties to drum up the gullible public.

Some truths and methods will be perpetuated, despite people gathering at Kerry's house.

Not every conflict is a false flag operation, sometimes, bad stuff really does happen that shocks the world and requires a response.

If Syria was flag flag, then we wouldn't have waited two years and 100,000 deaths to take action.

Vietnam and Iraq are nothing like Syria. This is much more along the lines of Kosovo than anything.

 

[Tragicomedy]

I just want to point out how silly the question of "Where did he get his medals if he threw them away?" sounds. We are authorized to wear medals, but rarely are you actually issued the damn thing. They pin on a symbolic one, which we have to return at the end of the ceremony. If your command has money, they'll toss you one in a box as well.

Most military personnel buy medals and ribbons to put on our uniforms at pretty much any military clothing sales store.

The controversy comes when people wear medals they aren't authorized and haven't earned. What Kerry did was throw $5 worth of metal over a fence. He could go out the next morning and buy another set.

 

[way more]

Their similarities end and will likely continue to end in us finding out years later that the military intervention was made for economic and corporate interests, and that an attack was indeed manufactured/known by said interested parties to drum up the gullible public.

Some truths and methods will be perpetuated, despite people gathering at Kerry's house.

1. Stage Chemical Weapon use in Syria
2. Send Cruise Missiles
3. ???
4. Profit

 

[Rentahamster]

All conflicts are exactly the same. Ww2 = vietnam = Libya = Syria.



Some people are just stupid.

Couldn't you say that anti-war types hold the similarities of these conflicts in a higher priority than you hold the differences? They all have their similarities and differences. You feel the differences are more significant than the similarities.

Reducing their position to "they're stupid" is rather extreme, don't you think?

 

[Sanky Panky]

1. Stage Chemical Weapon use in Syria
2. Send Cruise Missiles
3. ???
4. Profit

4 is Saudi Arabia profits in this case, and I don't think that the attack was staged. An AP reporter that had been in the region for a few decades reported that the chemical weapons were supplied by Saudi Arabia. We are just doing the dirty work.

 

[Rubenov]

Yeah, because it couldn't be that Syria has massive chemical weapons stockpiles that they've been producing for decades. No, they had to go out to Saudi Arabia and ask them for some.

 

[RustyNails]

Couldn't you say that anti-war types hold the similarities of these conflicts in a higher priority than you hold the differences? They all have their similarities and differences. You feel the differences are more significant than the similarities.

Reducing their position to "they're stupid" is rather extreme, don't you think?

The onus is on people that think otherwise to prove why all conflicts are the same, not on me. I'm calling people stupid who think anything related to any kind of US military involvement overseas is suddenly Vietnam all over again. It's not extreme. I fully opposed Iraq War in 2003, still do. But I support Balkan intervention, Libyan intervention and also Syrian intervention. The world is much better place without Milosevic, Col. Qaddafi and Assad. Unlike 100% anti-war types, I strongly believe US' influence and global power can be a force for positive change, despite decades that show shady clandestine involvements. Each conflict is different with different set of externalities, different outcomes and different stakes. Looking for similarities will help us look for patterns and maybe make educated guesses on outcomes, but no two conflicts are alike.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

It's concerning that Iraq and Afghanistan were both started without a clear direction on what to do after we blew everything up, and now we're talking about blowing everything up in Syria without a clear strategic aim. Obama sure has talked tough about Assad needing to go but destroying his SAM sites is not the same as replacing him in office or rebuilding an Assad-free government that will withstand pressure from Russia or China. Kerry deserves some shit for stammering about boots on the ground like he had no idea what he was talking about for a few minutes in front of the Senate, but it's unclear if the antiwar protesters really catch on to such subtleties.

 

[Cameron122]

What if the world isn't black and white and going to war with Syria and not going to war Syria each has their own set of pros and cons?

._.

 

[Rubenov]

What if the world isn't black and white and going to war with Syria and not going to war Syria each has their own set of pros and cons?

._.

And you would be totally right.

 

[CeruleanSilver]

i wish people were this concerned about "getting involved" in 2003

Seriously. People are worried about not having an "end game" with Syria for what is being planned as a limited strike specifically tailored as a response to the chemical weapons. You don't need an end game– the idea is just to destroy related assets and send a message that we won't tolerate chemical weapons. As they say, there are no plans for "boots on the ground".

Of course that doesn't mean we don't need to think about collateral damage, or what responsibilities we have to others in the region as a result of our actions. But if this really is a limited strategic strike (as is thus far the proposal) I don't understand why people are so vehemently against it. I'm honestly not sure I'm for it, but at least it sounds totally reasonable so far.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

I don't understand why people are so vehemently against it. I'm honestly not sure I'm for it, but at least it sounds totally reasonable so far.

Everything sounds reasonable when the vocabulary dances around the inevitable civilian deaths caused by US missiles. It's fun to use words like 'strategic' when you are not achieving a single political change.

 

[Enron]

"End Game"? We aren't invading. Or even sending airstrikes. All we are talking about is lobbing some cruise missles from 1000 miles away. There is no "End Game" to discuss.

 

[kame-sennin]

1. Stage Chemical Weapon use in Syria
2. Send Cruise Missiles
3. ???
4. Profit

Maintaining hegemony in the Middle East is a major strategic priority for the corporate state. We have no evidence of a false flag operation (nor would we unless a whistleblower chose to sacrifice their freedom to reveal such evidence), but it's clear our government was motivated to depose Assad prior to the deployment of chemical weapons.

 

[Elwood Blues]

Once a flip-flopper always a flip-flopper.

 

[dave is ok]

Jokes on them. He probably hasn't stayed a night there in years