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"I need a New PC!" 2012 Thread. Ivy, SSDs, and reading the OP. [Part 2]

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W

Wolf Akela

Member
I always wonder why people feel the need to immediately upgrade an OS.

Just... why? Is there some new feature that you absolutely cannot live without? Did hardware manufacturers suddenly drop driver support for your current OS?
 
I

IcyRhythms

Member
kitch9 said:
Why?

Because someone else said you should?
Click to expand...

Not sure I said that. You just pull that one out of your ass or...

I'm going to stick with 7 because I enjoy it and it's currently very stable. Windows 8 is still fairly new. Probably won't bother with it until it's had at least one service pack.
 
M

mkenyon

Banned
Amneisac said:
So, I need to find a thinner 120mm fan. 25mm doesn't fit anymore since I added my 660ti. My temps are actually still pretty good, and this is the front fan in the case so it just needs to be an open-air fan.

I have a Gentle Typhoon blowing through my Hyper 212 and a S-Flex exhausting out the back, but I need a thinner than 25mm for the front of the case. Anyone have any suggestions? I see they used to make a 12mm Scythe, but it's apparently no longer in production. I found a 20mm Yate Loon on Amazon, but I'm not sure that's going to be quite thin enough.
Click to expand...
Here are some 20mm good ones. Scythe makes some 12mm ones, but there are some distribution problems going on right now since they shut down Scythe USA.
Wolf Akela said:
I always wonder why people feel the need to immediately upgrade an OS.

Just... why? Is there some new feature that you absolutely cannot live without? Did hardware manufacturers suddenly drop driver support for your current OS?
Click to expand...
For the same reason I *have* to buy every new high end video card that comes out. :p

Some people just like to tinker and experiment, see the new shiny. Half of the reason why I have computers is just to mess with them and learn new stuff.
Widdly Scuds said:
I want to get into PC gaming and have done some reading/research but still really don't know what I'm doing.

Your Current Specs: N/A
Budget+Country: $800-1300 + US
Main Use: Gaming (5), Emulation (PS2/Wii) (4), light video editing (2), General Usage (Word, Web, 1080p playback) (4)
Monitor Resolution: My current monitor is 1920 x 1080
List SPECIFIC games that you MUST be able to play: SSF4, SFxTK, Saints Row 3rd, GTAIV (iCEnhancer), Dead Space (1-2-3). Overall, I would like to run modern games at a solid 60fps at settings at least slightly better than current consoles and decently run nextgen games at 30fps+
Looking to reuse any parts?: N/A
When will you build?: I can wait and buy the parts over the course of a month
Will you be overclocking?: Only if necessary

Here's a build I came up with:
http://pcpartpicker.com/p/vMpb

CPU: Intel Core i7-3770K 3.5GHz Quad-Core Processor ($229.99 @ Microcenter)
CPU Cooler: Corsair Hydro Series H60 74.4 CFM Liquid CPU Cooler ($44.99 @ Newegg)
Motherboard: Asus P8Z77-I Deluxe Mini ITX LGA1155 Motherboard ($179.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Memory: Corsair Vengeance 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($45.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Western Digital Caviar Blue 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($69.99 @ NCIX US)
Storage: Samsung 840 Series 120GB 2.5" Solid State Disk ($89.99 @ Adorama)
Video Card: MSI GeForce GTX 670 2GB Video Card ($349.99 @ Newegg)
Case: BitFenix Prodigy (Red) Mini ITX Tower Case ($69.99 @ NCIX US)
Power Supply: Antec Basiq Plus 550W 80 PLUS Certified ATX12V Power Supply ($64.99 @ Newegg)
Optical Drive: Lite-On iHAS124-04 DVD/CD Writer ($16.99 @ Newegg)
Operating System: Microsoft Windows 8 (OEM) (64-bit) ($87.99 @ NCIX US)
Total: $1250.89

I think I could save money by going with windows 7 and going with a smaller capacity SSD and HDD. Also, If I go with a build like this would I need to add some 200MM fans?

edit: Actually I think I might go for an i5 3570k and put the money the extra money towards a a better graphics card (7970 or 680).
Click to expand...
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=42660100&postcount=195

I'd say go with the enthusiast build there, but swap the 3770K for the 3570K. Think about adding in an external DAC as I have in the chart there, as the onboard sound is not great on the ITX boards. Definitely the main issue with them.
 
metalshade

metalshade

Member
Tried to fix this my self for months, much googling etc, but I have had enough.
I need your help again guys.
I run a comfy couch set up.
1080p HDTV, AMD 6870, i5 2500k, windows 7 x64.
I have my desktop displaying at 1080p, and my font size is at 150%, this is all fine for browsing, reading, writing etc, and for 90% of my games, no scaling issues that I am aware of.
However I have noticed that any of my games that run higher than dx9 seem to hate my font size being higher than 125% They will either get black bars, or they will display at the wrong resolution, or some will display way larger than my screen.
I have trouble with Saints Row 3, Just Cause 2, Battlefield 3, Crysis Warhead, Blacklight Retribution, and today with Warframe. I assume these are all dx10 or something, as when I set some of them to run on dx9, the issues dont occur, or when I set my font size down to 125% they dont occur.
What the heck is going on, is there something really simple I have messed up?
Sorry guys, but I am really stuck, and rather frustrated.
Edit: I wish I knew what was going on. Just Cause 2 and warframe have fixed themselves perfectly, but blacklight still wont display properly till I lower the font size.
 
M

MarshMellow96

Member
Okay, so basically I'm looking to build something that can do a game like Skyrim at 1080p60 on high/ultra settings and do pretty well with everything else. OS isn't a problem and I've got a PS3 for BD, but I could see myself doing some HD video streaming from the PC. It will be hooked up to a 1080p monitor.

I'm new to this and I don't know if I'm asking too much for my budget (more than £500 but ideally less than £600-700) so here's what the build that I came up with while trying to follow the 'best value' builds and trying to adjust for cost: http://pcpartpicker.com/uk/p/vQ8J

Here's a quick rundown of what I'm thinking:

CPU - I've read in some places that there's little performance increase i3 vs i5 for gaming. Is it worth just going with i3 instead?

Cooler - This was recommended in the builds.

Motherboard - similar to those in the builds, but would something like this be adequate? Can I go 'cheaper' on this part? Also, the case that I have chosen doesn't have front panel USB 3.0 ports - will this be a problem?

Memory - Tried to go for 8GB at the recommended Mhz while keeping the cost down.

GPU - That XFX card seems to be at a good price, but I'm worried about the rest of the machine. I'm kind of thinking you can't buy a decent graphics card and then cheap out on the rest, so I'm trying to do right by the card. Do I just have to worry about the PSU or what? I know there's the 7850 that will offer lower performance at a better price, too.

Perhaps the biggest question: How hard is to to build one yourself? Does everything (and I mean everything) come ready to install out of the box? Is it simply just a case of fitting everything into the box securely and safely and you're good to go?

One more thing - is this bundle from YoYoTech, which would significantly reduce the cost of CPU, motherboard etc, any good? It seems to be a different chipset and the memory's Mhz rating is lower.. I know the site in the recommended list in the OP, but are these bundles worth checking out?
 
M

mkenyon

Banned
So the reason why the 3570K is important is that you can overclock it. That sounds scary to someone who has never built a computer before, but it is really as simple as changing two values in BIOS and then checking to make sure it is stable. Overclocking to 4.2GHz is a piece of cake, almost as if the processors were designed to run at that speed. It dramatically reduces frame latency in a lot of games (what most people see as 'stutter'). Here's some tests I ran on CS:GO and Dota 2 to show how many frames that were rendered dropped below 60 fps (or above 16.7ms, as it were).

oimg


oimg


That being the case, I highly recommend going with your PC Partpicker list. The only thing I would consider changing is the RAM to two 4GB sticks. I think the Samsung 30nm RAM isn't much more than what you have in your cart.
 
A

Aguirre

Member
is my cpu bottlenecking these games?:

dark souls
skyrim
fallout 3/new vegas
witcher 1

my cpu: amd phenom ii x4 965 3.4ghz / gpu: 7950 / ram: corsair 8gig ddr3 1333MHz
 
A

Aguirre

Member
mkenyon said:
I don't know about Witcher 1 or Dark Souls, but definitely yes on Skyrim and New Vegas.
Click to expand...

if i were to upgrade to bulldozer, i'd also have to upgrade my mobo but i cant afford that. what is the logical step to take here? is there an upgrade to the 965? should i overclock? i have an after market cpu cooler
 
A

Aguirre

Member
mkenyon said:
Bulldozer isn't an upgrade in gaming performance. AMD has pretty much abandoned being the choice for gaming processors, and have instead focused more on workstation/multimedia performance. You'd need to go Sandy/Ivy.
Click to expand...

oh god i have so much research into mobos now. do amd cards and intel cpus go well together? also have you got a suggestion of a good intel sandy/ivy which is cheap but better than what i have? thanks!!
 
M

mkenyon

Banned
OP has all the info you need. Yes, AMD videocards do fine with Intel CPUs.

*edit*

Also those charts above are with a 7950, so that gives you an exact idea of the performance differences you'd see.
 
F

Felix Lighter

Member
mkenyon said:
Bulldozer isn't an upgrade in gaming performance. AMD has pretty much abandoned being the choice for gaming processors, and have instead focused more on workstation/multimedia performance. You'd need to go Sandy/Ivy.
Click to expand...

My plan was to wait 2 years and then do a full system build. I currently have an i7 930 and I have it OCed to 3.9 Ghz (anything higher requires too much voltage for stability) and a HD 7970 OCed with overdrive to the max allowed by default. My thought process is I should wait 1 year after the new generation of consoles are released to make sure my system is capable for the inevitable bump in base requirements.

Is that a good plan or is there a significant reason to upgrade to a Sandy or Ivy bridge CPU? Based on the information we have now, do we have any ideas of what will be available 2 years from now? That graph shows that I'm right near the tipping point, when CPU clock speed starts seriously effecting framerate and I'd imagine clock for clock compared to the Ivy bridge i7, my CPU performs worse than the 3.8/3.6 Ghz measurements.
 
M

mkenyon

Banned
Actually, Nehalem only loses about 1-2% clock for clock compared to Sandy/Ivy. If you want, you could always grab a better CPU cooler and OC it a bit more.

There isn't a huge point in upgrading outside of inevitably being bottlenecked by PCI-E 2.0 bandwidth. That isn't the case with your current card, but next gen it most likely will.

The thing that makes it a bit complex, is that based on all of the rumors and focus, Haswell will most likely not be a significant change compared to Ivy. Of course, you can definitely wait and see for sure, since this is just rumors and speculation.

I think the upgrade that makes sense for Nehalem folks is waiting for Ivy-E's 4 Core/8 Thread processor due out Q3, on socket 2011.
 
M

MarshMellow96

Member
mkenyon said:
So the reason why the 3570K is important is that you can overclock it. That sounds scary to someone who has never built a computer before, but it is really as simple as changing two values in BIOS and then checking to make sure it is stable. Overclocking to 4.2GHz is a piece of cake, almost as if the processors were designed to run at that speed. It dramatically reduces frame latency in a lot of games (what most people see as 'stutter'). Here's some tests I ran on CS:GO and Dota 2 to show how many frames that were rendered dropped below 60 fps (or above 16.7ms, as it were).

That being the case, I highly recommend going with your PC Partpicker list. The only thing I would consider changing is the RAM to two 4GB sticks. I think the Samsung 30nm RAM isn't much more than what you have in your cart.
Click to expand...

Interesting! I can find the Samsung RAM elsewhere, so that's fine. I don't have a problem affording the parts, but putting them together. For someone who hasn't put a PC together before, is it going to be relatively straightforward?
 
F

Felix Lighter

Member
mkenyon said:
Actually, Nehalem only loses about 1-2% clock for clock compared to Sandy/Ivy. If you want, you could always grab a better CPU cooler and OC it a bit more.

There isn't a huge point in upgrading outside of inevitably being bottlenecked by PCI-E 2.0 bandwidth. That isn't the case with your current card, but next gen it most likely will.

The thing that makes it a bit complex, is that based on all of the rumors and focus, Haswell will most likely not be a significant change compared to Ivy. Of course, you can definitely wait and see for sure, since this is just rumors and speculation.

I think the upgrade that makes sense for Nehalem folks is waiting for Ivy-E's 4 Core/8 Thread processor due out Q3, on socket 2011.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I'll keep an eye out for that.
 
M

mkenyon

Banned
MarshMellow96 said:
Interesting! I can find the Samsung RAM elsewhere, so that's fine. I don't have a problem affording the parts, but putting them together. For someone who hasn't put a PC together before, is it going to be relatively straightforward?
Click to expand...
For the most part, yeah. There's a number of videos and guides in the OP that should help quite a bit.

Pretty much, if it doesn't fit there, it doesn't go there. If it does fit, then it goes there. Keep those guides and your motherboard manual on hand, and it really is easier than putting together a Lego set.
 
F

FallingEdge

Member
M

MarshMellow96

Member
mkenyon said:
For the most part, yeah. There's a number of videos and guides in the OP that should help quite a bit.

Pretty much, if it doesn't fit there, it doesn't go there. If it does fit, then it goes there. Keep those guides and your motherboard manual on hand, and it really is easier than putting together a Lego set.
Click to expand...

So other than that, if I adhere to my list I'll be set, right?
 
C

Camp Lo

Banned
FallingEdge said:
Don't know if you guys have a Microcenter nearby but for those who are interested in buying a new processor - http://www.microcenter.com/product/388575/Core_i7_3770K_35GHz_LGA_1155_Processor

in store pickup only but that is a great price

http://pcpartpicker.com/p/vQAV

That ended up being my final list. If I wanted to OC the processor, do I need a better cooler? Or is that fine? I don't want to go crazy trying to find the perfect OC values so even a slight bump is fine by me.
Click to expand...

If you're primarily gaming, i7 will do nothing for you
 
I

Infinite Justice

Member
mkenyon said:
So the reason why the 3570K is important is that you can overclock it. That sounds scary to someone who has never built a computer before, but it is really as simple as changing two values in BIOS and then checking to make sure it is stable. Overclocking to 4.2GHz is a piece of cake, almost as if the processors were designed to run at that speed. It dramatically reduces frame latency in a lot of games (what most people see as 'stutter'). Here's some tests I ran on CS:GO and Dota 2 to show how many frames that were rendered dropped below 60 fps (or above 16.7ms, as it were).

oimg


oimg


That being the case, I highly recommend going with your PC Partpicker list. The only thing I would consider changing is the RAM to two 4GB sticks. I think the Samsung 30nm RAM isn't much more than what you have in your cart.
Click to expand...

Wow thats a huge improvment for just going 200mhz more :O
 
M

mkenyon

Banned
Shambles said:
It doesn't tell you much of anything without showing you the total number of frames recorded.
Click to expand...
Each one is 3 minutes. So, ~36000 frames.

*edit*

Also, keep in mind that these stutters are happening at the most intense parts of gameplay. Since these games poll input based on frames rendered, you're essentially looking at heavily increased input lag during the times where it is most important.

*edit 2* Er, bad math. Looking at the spreadsheets, it's 30000-32000 frames.
 
DJ_Lae

DJ_Lae

Member
Anyone know a good place (or any place!) that carries that Samsung memory here in Canada? I could order it via a US site but at that point the duty and shipping would drive it high enough I'd save a big chunk of money just buying a 16GB LP Vengeance kit.

Newegg.ca has it listed but it's perennially out of stock.

edit - also wondering if anyone had opinions about anti-static wrist straps. Last time I did any work on my computer or built one I was in Victoria, where I could shuffle around on carpet and have no problems at all thanks to the humidity. Here in Edmonton, however, I just have to look at a screw on a light switch or the top of my computer case and I get a shock. Would one be necessary or just touching the case periodically during install suffice? I've never zapped a component but I'd imagine they're more robust than some people indicate.
 
K

kennah

Member
DJ_Lae said:
Anyone know a good place (or any place!) that carries that Samsung memory here in Canada? I could order it via a US site but at that point the duty and shipping would drive it high enough I'd save a big chunk of money just buying a 16GB LP Vengeance kit.

Newegg.ca has it listed but it's perennially out of stock.
Click to expand...

I've got an unopened 2x4gb pack that I wouldn't be using until next year anyway. Send me a PM if you're interested (I'm in Winnipeg)

EDIT: (heh, I mean much later this year...)
 
A

Azure Dream

Member
I'm trying to decide between two monitors. The VH236H and the VS248H-P. They both have positive reviews, although the 236 has a lot more of them. They both have the same amount of lag. The 236 includes speakers, but they're crappy monitor speakers and pretty much the only negative people list about it. The 248 doesn't have speakers, but it is an inch bigger (which could be good or bad, since I sit about 28" away from my current monitor), a much higher contrast ratio, LED backlighting and a slightly better horizontal viewing angle, although it looks like it may not be quite as bright? (300 cd/m2 vs 250 cd/m2) And people have complained about the base on the VS248H-P being a little flimsy.

Any opinions which one I should go for?
 
A

aegies

Member
Based on my conversations with developers and what I've heard/know about next-gen hardware, I am of the opinion that CPUs that can comfortably handle 8 threads will be a good investment for PC gaming after, say, June or so. With that in mind, what kind of performance bump is Haswell going to offer over the current high-end 300-400 dollar i7s? If I'm looking to assemble a PC that will last for about 24 months, and don't need it urgently (my current build handles just about everything on high without a problem), is it worth waiting based on my criteria? Note that I'm not worried about a new video card right now, so that can wait until much later in the year.
 
M

mkenyon

Banned
aegies said:
Based on my conversations with developers and what I've heard/know about next-gen hardware, I am of the opinion that CPUs that can comfortably handle 8 threads will be a good investment for PC gaming after, say, June or so. With that in mind, what kind of performance bump is Haswell going to offer over the current high-end 300-400 dollar i7s? If I'm looking to assemble a PC that will last for about 24 months, and don't need it urgently (my current build handles just about everything on high without a problem), is it worth waiting based on my criteria? Note that I'm not worried about a new video card right now, so that can wait until much later in the year.
Click to expand...
Out of curiosity, is this based on the fact that many of the engines are going to be n-threaded?

I ask, because the only data we have available with today's games coded similarly almost entirely place the bottleneck on the video card, with CPUs having a minimal impact beyond a kind of base level of 3.xish GHz and 4 threads OR Cores.

Civ V is one of the noteworthy games that is n-threaded with a pretty substantial CPU load at that. Check this bench which is extremely dissimilar to everything else out there.

uukgd.png


Those processors are very different in terms of per-thread performance.

I wouldn't go as far to say that this indicates future performance figures, as each engine is unique, but I'm really skeptical that 8 thread processors will have any major benefits.

As far as Haswell goes, there's absolutely nothing concrete, not even rumored benchmarks. Most of the talk is about power savings and a lot of the technology being added to further reduce TDP and dramatically increase things like laptop battery life. I wouldn't expect anything different than the SB->IVB type of increase, which is ~5%.

The only other rumor that could affect this is that Haswell is supposedly shipping with quality IMC's, which will allow overclocking of non 'K' parts via BCLK. Coupled with the backlash of the poor thermal performance of IVB, I think we might have another surprise on our hands for performance freaks, similar to the i7 3820.

Arthur, I'm not sure how much multimedia work you do, but for those looking towards top-notch performance with a great upgrade path over the next 24 months, I highly suggest X79 with a 3820. It's a wash in price compared to a quality Z77 motherboard with a 3770K, and you get the benefit of a processor refresh with Ivy-E later this year.
 
A

aegies

Member
mkenyon said:
Out of curiosity, is this based on the fact that many of the engines are going to be n-threaded?

I ask, because the only data we have available with today's games coded similarly almost entirely place the bottleneck on the video card, with CPUs having a minimal impact beyond a kind of base level of 3.xish GHz and 4 threads OR Cores.

Civ V is one of the noteworthy games that is n-threaded with a pretty substantial CPU load at that. Check this bench which is extremely dissimilar to everything else out there.

uukgd.png


Those processors are very different in terms of per-thread performance.

I wouldn't go as far to say that this indicates future performance figures, as each engine is unique, but I'm really skeptical that 8 thread processors will have any major benefits.

As far as Haswell goes, there's absolutely nothing concrete, not even rumored benchmarks. Most of the talk is about power savings and a lot of the technology being added to further reduce TDP and dramatically increase things like laptop battery life. I wouldn't expect anything different than the SB->IVB type of increase, which is ~5%.

The only other rumor that could affect this is that Haswell is supposedly shipping with quality IMC's, which will allow overclocking of non 'K' parts via BCLK. Coupled with the backlash of the poor thermal performance of IVB, I think we might have another surprise on our hands for performance freaks, similar to the i7 3820.

Arthur, I'm not sure how much multimedia work you do, but for those looking towards top-notch performance with a great upgrade path over the next 24 months, I highly suggest X79 with a 3820. It's a wash in price compared to a quality Z77 motherboard with a 3770K, and you get the benefit of a processor refresh with Ivy-E later this year.
Click to expand...

My motherboard demands have a special wrinkle: I need one that supports thunderbolt (I go between Macbook Pro and the PC for work). This will be primarily a work games machine, but production stuff will probably happen on it, and also streaming and such.

Regarding multi-threading, I'll say this: there is no consumer level part with the number of hardware threads/cores that the Durango devkits are packing, based on multiple sources off the record. Also, this might be the year when devs start moving to 64 bit exclusive development. I know Stardock is talking about it a lot, and next-gen is going to push that further.
 
G

garath

Member
Azure Dream said:
I'm trying to decide between two monitors. The VH236H and the VS248H-P. They both have positive reviews, although the 236 has a lot more of them. They both have the same amount of lag. The 236 includes speakers, but they're crappy monitor speakers and pretty much the only negative people list about it. The 248 doesn't have speakers, but it is an inch bigger (which could be good or bad, since I sit about 28" away from my current monitor), a much higher contrast ratio, LED backlighting and a slightly better horizontal viewing angle, although it looks like it may not be quite as bright? (300 cd/m2 vs 250 cd/m2) And people have complained about the base on the VS248H-P being a little flimsy.

Any opinions which one I should go for?
Click to expand...

I just bought the VS247H-P. It was an upgrade from my older ASUS VW224U. I freakin' love this monitor. I think it's just the older version of the VS248 you're looking at. I saw a bunch of reviews that said to go with the VS247 over the 248. It's a lot cheaper too.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005BZNDS0/?tag=neogaf0e-20

It's very bright, I wouldn't be concerned about that in the slightest (I'm using my old monitor in a dual setup and had to crank it to max brightness to even come close to the standard setting on the VS248H-P). Where my old monitor had some significant backlight bleed, the new one doesn't appear to have any at all.

It doesn't have speakers but I found the speakers on my old monitor were pretty useless. I only used them once for a LAN thing and I had it maxxed for tiny tinny sound.

It's fast, the colors are gorgeous and having upgraded from 1680x1050 to 1920x1080, I wouldn't go any smaller than 24". I already feel a little cramped going from 16:10 :( But it's simply beautiful. The brightness and colors are huge upgrades from what I had.

I got mine for 139.99 after $20 rebate from Amazon so at that price I'd take the VS247 hands down.

edit: Oh yeah, the stand. That's the only complaint I found in any reviews across Amazon and newegg for this monitor (other than a few dead pixels you see with any monitor). It was very concerning to me and almost caused me not to get it. Now that I have it though, it's a non-issue. I guess if your desk is wobbly it would be a problem but I have no issues at all.

edit2: realized you posted about the VS248, not the 247 I own. I revised my post accordingly. I remember looking at the VS248 also.
 
M

mkenyon

Banned
aegies said:
My motherboard demands have a special wrinkle: I need one that supports thunderbolt (I go between Macbook Pro and the PC for work). This will be primarily a work games machine, but production stuff will probably happen on it, and also streaming and such.

Regarding multi-threading, I'll say this: there is no consumer level part with the number of hardware threads/cores that the Durango devkits are packing, based on multiple sources off the record. Also, this might be the year when devs start moving to 64 bit exclusive development. I know Stardock is talking about it a lot, and next-gen is going to push that further.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the info! So you're saying that these are packing more than 12 threads? Goodness gracious.

Well, my personal recommendation would be based on how far you think you might want to push your processor. The Gigabyte Z77-UP5 TH is a pretty stellar board, and the 3770K is an absolute gem of a processor. If you want to clock it high, you will most likely hit a heatwall somewhere in the 4.4-4.6GHz range where no amount of cooling will be able to fix the issue.

If you want to go beyond that, it might be worth the wait for Haswell.
 
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