RedRedSuit
Member
EDIT: I apologize for the unintentionally misleading original thread title. I am not implying a remaster is in the works; just discussing that possibility and how/why it might be good.
EDIT 2: I am also not suggesting GG themselves needs to do this remaster/remake. Absolutely a capable shop like Bluepoint -- who are handling the Shadow of the Colossus reMAKE -- can and should handle it. Then GG proper can reap the benefits.
EDIT 3: Looking at replies, it seems that the POV and FOV was another point of contention that could be fairly easily resolved.
Bear with me here. I'm not claiming to be some genius with a grand plan. I just really love the franchise (not really... but I DO really love KZ2) and feel there's something there worth saving, and maybe I have an idea of how to do it. Maybe it's dumb. But this is a discussion board after all.
(Also I haven't been paying attention to deep GG news, so if this post is behind the times and states obvious shit, I do apologize.)
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Killzone as a franchise seems dead in the water. Shadow Fall got a really brutal reaction, 3 was solid but really seemed rather forced compared to 2 which felt more like a person tour-de-force, and then GG scored a huge hit with the utterly different Horizon. All these things imply that Killzone is taking a big long pause with little indication for a comeback.
GG doesn't need Killzone. Sony doesn't need Killzone (though, actually, it WOULD be nice to have a first-party hit FPS again, wouldn't it?).
But I think GG could get public interest in Killzone again, and given PS4's mainstream positioning, now would be a great time for it. AND I even think I know how to start this glorious comeback.
I think it should start with... a Killzone 2 (and maybe 3 for good measure, in the same package) remake/remaster.
Thinking back to it --
Killzone 2 was a critical hit, a rare 90+ on Metacritic (and remember that this game had HUGE negative baggage going against it -- that whole target render thing, KZ1 being a horror show, "Halo killer" verbiage being ascribed <wrongly> to Sony -- so scoring that high was an extra difficult feat to achieve... this wasn't like GTA IV where everyone was jsut waiting to give it a 10/10). It was, however, at the same time a fairly divisive game.
Some people fuckin' hated Killzone 2, and they probably always will. Whether it's Rico's lines, or whether is the game's "feel," it really turns off some people. And that's fine. Haters gonna hate, and I don't mean that in a way that disparages haters. I just mean that KZ2 is not for everyone.
But I also know that the game's uniqueness was hugely successful with many people as well. I was one of those people. On paper, it's the kind of game that snobby gamer types such as myself should hate. I mean:
- A team of 4 tough-talking, swearing, macho male soldiers (a-la Gears, but Gears did it first).
- A seemingly generic gray/black industrial color palette (a-la Gears, but Gears did it first).
- A fairly generic story (storm the enemy fortress, kill the scary henchman introduced early in the game) (again really not too different from Gears, at least the henchman part).
- A multiplayer mode not very different from the competitors' but less polished than the top tier ones, with server browsers and without smooth matchmaking.
Yet, despite that truly eye-roll-inducing list of attributes, this game is truly my favorite "war shooter" type of campaign, and by extension I enjoyed the vs. multiplayer too. In my humble opinion (but I do know that many on here also felt the same, so I'm not some wacky outlier), KZ2 was a shock masterpiece that always felt like GG poured all their blood and sweat into it, and they could never match that level of output before or after. For Slayer fans, it's sort of like their Reign in Blood, you know? An outlier, an oddly unexpected masterpiece. Like, we know the guys in Slayer can PLAY -- and we know GG can make technically STUNNING games -- but can Slayer ever write another Angel Of Death? Can GG ever design a campaign as good as KZ2's?
KZ2 just works somehow, way better than the above list of bullet points makes it seem it has any right to, really. That gray/black industrial atmosphere? It looks AMAZING somehow. I mean you can almost, like, feel and smell Helghan. It sounds like it'd look generic... but it ISN'T generic. It's beautiful in its ugliness. It really is. (And by the same token, when it departs from the ugly ground, it's beautiful in a more literal way in the space Cruiser level, showing that GG can do that too. Similarly, that desert level had a different visual feel that was nice as well.)
I remember moments in KZ2 where I felt despair, like I was in a battle, where I am just a small part of it, and I'm simply not going to make it, and god damn it, I need to make it. It is a rare game that can immerse one to that extent, and KZ2 was one of those rare games. Without VR, that level of immersion is a serious achievement.
Furthermore, those death animations (pushed back then by PR as "ballet of death" or something like that) were really something. I am not sure why, but KZ3 never had that same feeling of bullets impacting enemy bodies in the same stunningly John Woo-esque way. Again, sounds whatever, but it really was NOT whatever. Those kills looked and felt personal.
The level design -- it was never given the credit it deserved. I recall those levels being quite vertical and interesting, with tons of tactical options and a good cover implementation. It was somewhere between Modern Warfare's mostly-ultra-linear lock-on shooting gallery and Halo's large free-form battles. It was a very nice niche (I don't claim it was anything UNIQUE, per se, but it was a very very very very fun set of tactically interesting battles, which is not exactly super-common).
(There were a few difficulty-imbalanced stages, however, and 1 or 2 infinite-spawn situations which definitely stick in the memory and undo what should've been a highly-praised game for its level design.)
You know what? Even the story was pretty good. Was it anything special? No, it was not, but it was straight-forward and logical, and with a really excellent starting speech and what I thought to be an effective ending highlighting the futility that a single soldier in a large war might experience. OK, that last point I know many people take issue with, but I'm just saying, that feeling of futility -- they had something there. The main problem, of course, was Rico and all of Rico's bullshit, including his final action in the game. There's really no excuse for that. Of course, I never claimed the game is perfect either. Just that it had a nice narrative drive and didn't fuck up, Rico excepted.
Finally, the feel of the shooting and moving I, personally, loved. I know it was divisive, but I also know many loved it, the game sold well (with a demo available), and the sequel did well too. I don't know how they achieved the feel exactly, but the "weightiness" of motion really did it for me. Somehow it is the one non-VR FPS that really makes me feel the weight of all that weaponry, making me feel I am "there." I know MANY people hated it, but I think that they really hated was the scientifically-to-be-way-too-high input lag. I hypothesize (but could be wrong) that fixing that would maybe fix people's issues. Not sure though. One way or another, KZ3 pretty much got rid of the KZ2 "feel," which IMO caused it to lose uniqueness. Again, I could be off on this one.
Yet, even for those that generally loved the game, it had a few issues that were tough to ignore. It had those loading glitches; it had an insane difficulty spike late in the game; it had horrible friendly AI behavior; it had Rico; the online wasn't user-friendly; it had big input lag; and it didn't coop for which it was near-perfectly set up. All but one of those issues (RICO!!!) is fixable.
---
That beings me to my point. Killzone 2 was a big critical hit; it was a solid commercial hit; and it still remains the pinnacle of the franchise. I believe GG can deliver a remake that can make people take notice of the franchise again.
- Remaster it with all the usual trappings -- 1080p, 60fps. That's the base of it.
- Fix the large input lag while trying to retain the "weighty feel."
- Add some stuff to the levels to make some rooms and areas look less empty, so that it looks more like it belongs in this console generation.
- Fix the "Rico/etc. dies and begs for your help, but they don't reciprocate when you die" thing which is infuriating. I believe KZ3 already fixed it.
- Make the online matchmaking system smooth and simple. (This isn't my area of expertise, but IIRC the server browser feel of it was a turn-off to those used to the ease of Halo and CoD matchmaking. Not sure. Just bring it up to speed.)
- Rebalance the difficulty somewhat. Normal should be a bit more difficult. Hard should be a bit less difficult. The middle boss battle needs to not be stupidly easy. And the final fight should be made less frustrating: just add a couple checkpoints.
- Most, most, most, MOST importantly: Make the game 4-player coop, online. God, I would pay serious $$$ for that alone. If ever there was a game just begging for online coop, it's KZ2. (Yes, I know, it has lone-wolf sections. But just Halo it. We can suspend disbelief for a bit.)
Here's why IMO this remaster/remake -- particularly if renamed (The Helghan Trilogy or something along those lines) and packaged as at least KZ2+3 together -- could make a dent in people's goodwill toward Killzone, to the point where they might ask some true sequels.
Why would I think this would be effective?
Because Killzone 2's beautiful atmosphere, beautiful presentation of violence (the death animations and blood effects, etc.), strong vertical/tactically fruitful level design, immersive controls combined with a modernized visual presentation with denser geometry and particularly 60fps smoothness would truly impress both series veterans and newcomers. I think this game could look and feel like a strong current-gen game.
Consider God of War III. SSM didn't package or promote this remaster well -- at ALL -- BUT, if you actually play it, it looks absolutely stunning, every bit as good as current-gen games of the same type. In fact, better! And it also feels so smooth at 60fps. I think KZ2 has the potential to achieve something close to that.
Worst-case, KZ2 fanboys like me should snap it up, which should pay for the cost of the remaster anyway. I know it's not cheap to do what I described, but it's not an all-new game either, not even close.
Sooooooo... how about it, GG?
EDIT 2: I am also not suggesting GG themselves needs to do this remaster/remake. Absolutely a capable shop like Bluepoint -- who are handling the Shadow of the Colossus reMAKE -- can and should handle it. Then GG proper can reap the benefits.
EDIT 3: Looking at replies, it seems that the POV and FOV was another point of contention that could be fairly easily resolved.
Bear with me here. I'm not claiming to be some genius with a grand plan. I just really love the franchise (not really... but I DO really love KZ2) and feel there's something there worth saving, and maybe I have an idea of how to do it. Maybe it's dumb. But this is a discussion board after all.
(Also I haven't been paying attention to deep GG news, so if this post is behind the times and states obvious shit, I do apologize.)
---
Killzone as a franchise seems dead in the water. Shadow Fall got a really brutal reaction, 3 was solid but really seemed rather forced compared to 2 which felt more like a person tour-de-force, and then GG scored a huge hit with the utterly different Horizon. All these things imply that Killzone is taking a big long pause with little indication for a comeback.
GG doesn't need Killzone. Sony doesn't need Killzone (though, actually, it WOULD be nice to have a first-party hit FPS again, wouldn't it?).
But I think GG could get public interest in Killzone again, and given PS4's mainstream positioning, now would be a great time for it. AND I even think I know how to start this glorious comeback.
I think it should start with... a Killzone 2 (and maybe 3 for good measure, in the same package) remake/remaster.
Thinking back to it --
Killzone 2 was a critical hit, a rare 90+ on Metacritic (and remember that this game had HUGE negative baggage going against it -- that whole target render thing, KZ1 being a horror show, "Halo killer" verbiage being ascribed <wrongly> to Sony -- so scoring that high was an extra difficult feat to achieve... this wasn't like GTA IV where everyone was jsut waiting to give it a 10/10). It was, however, at the same time a fairly divisive game.
Some people fuckin' hated Killzone 2, and they probably always will. Whether it's Rico's lines, or whether is the game's "feel," it really turns off some people. And that's fine. Haters gonna hate, and I don't mean that in a way that disparages haters. I just mean that KZ2 is not for everyone.
But I also know that the game's uniqueness was hugely successful with many people as well. I was one of those people. On paper, it's the kind of game that snobby gamer types such as myself should hate. I mean:
- A team of 4 tough-talking, swearing, macho male soldiers (a-la Gears, but Gears did it first).
- A seemingly generic gray/black industrial color palette (a-la Gears, but Gears did it first).
- A fairly generic story (storm the enemy fortress, kill the scary henchman introduced early in the game) (again really not too different from Gears, at least the henchman part).
- A multiplayer mode not very different from the competitors' but less polished than the top tier ones, with server browsers and without smooth matchmaking.
Yet, despite that truly eye-roll-inducing list of attributes, this game is truly my favorite "war shooter" type of campaign, and by extension I enjoyed the vs. multiplayer too. In my humble opinion (but I do know that many on here also felt the same, so I'm not some wacky outlier), KZ2 was a shock masterpiece that always felt like GG poured all their blood and sweat into it, and they could never match that level of output before or after. For Slayer fans, it's sort of like their Reign in Blood, you know? An outlier, an oddly unexpected masterpiece. Like, we know the guys in Slayer can PLAY -- and we know GG can make technically STUNNING games -- but can Slayer ever write another Angel Of Death? Can GG ever design a campaign as good as KZ2's?
KZ2 just works somehow, way better than the above list of bullet points makes it seem it has any right to, really. That gray/black industrial atmosphere? It looks AMAZING somehow. I mean you can almost, like, feel and smell Helghan. It sounds like it'd look generic... but it ISN'T generic. It's beautiful in its ugliness. It really is. (And by the same token, when it departs from the ugly ground, it's beautiful in a more literal way in the space Cruiser level, showing that GG can do that too. Similarly, that desert level had a different visual feel that was nice as well.)
I remember moments in KZ2 where I felt despair, like I was in a battle, where I am just a small part of it, and I'm simply not going to make it, and god damn it, I need to make it. It is a rare game that can immerse one to that extent, and KZ2 was one of those rare games. Without VR, that level of immersion is a serious achievement.
Furthermore, those death animations (pushed back then by PR as "ballet of death" or something like that) were really something. I am not sure why, but KZ3 never had that same feeling of bullets impacting enemy bodies in the same stunningly John Woo-esque way. Again, sounds whatever, but it really was NOT whatever. Those kills looked and felt personal.
The level design -- it was never given the credit it deserved. I recall those levels being quite vertical and interesting, with tons of tactical options and a good cover implementation. It was somewhere between Modern Warfare's mostly-ultra-linear lock-on shooting gallery and Halo's large free-form battles. It was a very nice niche (I don't claim it was anything UNIQUE, per se, but it was a very very very very fun set of tactically interesting battles, which is not exactly super-common).
(There were a few difficulty-imbalanced stages, however, and 1 or 2 infinite-spawn situations which definitely stick in the memory and undo what should've been a highly-praised game for its level design.)
You know what? Even the story was pretty good. Was it anything special? No, it was not, but it was straight-forward and logical, and with a really excellent starting speech and what I thought to be an effective ending highlighting the futility that a single soldier in a large war might experience. OK, that last point I know many people take issue with, but I'm just saying, that feeling of futility -- they had something there. The main problem, of course, was Rico and all of Rico's bullshit, including his final action in the game. There's really no excuse for that. Of course, I never claimed the game is perfect either. Just that it had a nice narrative drive and didn't fuck up, Rico excepted.
Finally, the feel of the shooting and moving I, personally, loved. I know it was divisive, but I also know many loved it, the game sold well (with a demo available), and the sequel did well too. I don't know how they achieved the feel exactly, but the "weightiness" of motion really did it for me. Somehow it is the one non-VR FPS that really makes me feel the weight of all that weaponry, making me feel I am "there." I know MANY people hated it, but I think that they really hated was the scientifically-to-be-way-too-high input lag. I hypothesize (but could be wrong) that fixing that would maybe fix people's issues. Not sure though. One way or another, KZ3 pretty much got rid of the KZ2 "feel," which IMO caused it to lose uniqueness. Again, I could be off on this one.
Yet, even for those that generally loved the game, it had a few issues that were tough to ignore. It had those loading glitches; it had an insane difficulty spike late in the game; it had horrible friendly AI behavior; it had Rico; the online wasn't user-friendly; it had big input lag; and it didn't coop for which it was near-perfectly set up. All but one of those issues (RICO!!!) is fixable.
---
That beings me to my point. Killzone 2 was a big critical hit; it was a solid commercial hit; and it still remains the pinnacle of the franchise. I believe GG can deliver a remake that can make people take notice of the franchise again.
- Remaster it with all the usual trappings -- 1080p, 60fps. That's the base of it.
- Fix the large input lag while trying to retain the "weighty feel."
- Add some stuff to the levels to make some rooms and areas look less empty, so that it looks more like it belongs in this console generation.
- Fix the "Rico/etc. dies and begs for your help, but they don't reciprocate when you die" thing which is infuriating. I believe KZ3 already fixed it.
- Make the online matchmaking system smooth and simple. (This isn't my area of expertise, but IIRC the server browser feel of it was a turn-off to those used to the ease of Halo and CoD matchmaking. Not sure. Just bring it up to speed.)
- Rebalance the difficulty somewhat. Normal should be a bit more difficult. Hard should be a bit less difficult. The middle boss battle needs to not be stupidly easy. And the final fight should be made less frustrating: just add a couple checkpoints.
- Most, most, most, MOST importantly: Make the game 4-player coop, online. God, I would pay serious $$$ for that alone. If ever there was a game just begging for online coop, it's KZ2. (Yes, I know, it has lone-wolf sections. But just Halo it. We can suspend disbelief for a bit.)
Here's why IMO this remaster/remake -- particularly if renamed (The Helghan Trilogy or something along those lines) and packaged as at least KZ2+3 together -- could make a dent in people's goodwill toward Killzone, to the point where they might ask some true sequels.
Why would I think this would be effective?
Because Killzone 2's beautiful atmosphere, beautiful presentation of violence (the death animations and blood effects, etc.), strong vertical/tactically fruitful level design, immersive controls combined with a modernized visual presentation with denser geometry and particularly 60fps smoothness would truly impress both series veterans and newcomers. I think this game could look and feel like a strong current-gen game.
Consider God of War III. SSM didn't package or promote this remaster well -- at ALL -- BUT, if you actually play it, it looks absolutely stunning, every bit as good as current-gen games of the same type. In fact, better! And it also feels so smooth at 60fps. I think KZ2 has the potential to achieve something close to that.
Worst-case, KZ2 fanboys like me should snap it up, which should pay for the cost of the remaster anyway. I know it's not cheap to do what I described, but it's not an all-new game either, not even close.
Sooooooo... how about it, GG?
