Red Blaster
Member
I think dark just opened a big can of "uh-oh". Holy shit though, I can't believe how dated Shenmue is now, thought things would never get better when I booted that up for the first time.
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" If Dreamcast Came Back "
- Thread starter U.2.K. Tha Greate$t
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Sholmes said:
Honestly, I'm just having some fun now. I've already busted out my capture equipment, so why not? I'm not going to capture just ONE shot afterall...
It's a bit unfair to compare Shenmue to SH3, though, as Shenmue has more on the screen (though it's nothing like a GTA style game). Shenmue is looking pretty dated now, though.
Any other DC or PS2 games I should load up?
J_Mourinho
Member
The comparison is very unfair when you consider Shenmue started out as a Saturn project and was redeveloped through 1998 and released in 1999 compared to SH3 which was released 4 years later in 2003.
If the DC had of had continual developer support and advancement in libraries through 2002 and 2003 who knows what would have been possible.
Its a shame it ended so early, Personally I would love to see some sort of budget release with an influx of new fun software with no emphasis on pretention.
If the DC had of had continual developer support and advancement in libraries through 2002 and 2003 who knows what would have been possible.
Its a shame it ended so early, Personally I would love to see some sort of budget release with an influx of new fun software with no emphasis on pretention.
dark10x said:
I remember what was promised and it has not been delivered. Whoever made the Tekken demo claimed that they could have easily added a hundred (at least -he made have said "hundreds of") spectators, but they could only add 30 due to time constraints. The impression was created that PS2 games would have hundreds of characters and people ran with it. I agree that the demos have been exceeded, but not by the orders of magnitude some would have it.
Why didn't you say so at the time?
Funny, didn't anybody mention this at the time?
I said:
"The way PS2 games look now days is nothing near what was promised. What happened to the Tekken game with hundreds of spectators?"
You assumed that I was referring to the actual Tekken demo when I was in fact talking about what its developer said about it and how people speculated about what was said. Another example of this was when some developer said that they had developed some anti-aliasing techniques to use on PS2 (this was when all the 'jaggies' business was still going on) and people then went on to claim that future PS2 games would all be completely free of aliasing artifacts. And now we still sit 5 years later with the exact same aliasing issues. Kinda like colour-clash on the speccy -you can do alot to minimize, hide and distract but it's never gone forever.
Regarding the demos and screenshots, I don't see how the promises and hype have delivered. PS2 games today all still exhibit either the same graphical shortcomings evident in those early demos, or the symptoms of trying to overcome them (over-use of blurring and filtering for example). The top PS2 games are still easy to critically dismantle in terms of deficiencies. The PS2 was a novel idea for its time but it was an idea far better implemented on the GC, and at a lower cost.
I see you've posted a somewhat more representative screen shot a bit further on. The thing about screenshots is that they rarely represent what the game looks like. You can find terrible quality screenshots for games on any platform. PS2 screenshots are most often either very harsh in terms of accentuating problems or, on the other end of the scale, just plain deceptive screens; at too higher resolution and/or being filtered to reduce/eliminate graphical flaws. Very few PS2 screenshots are a fair representation of how the game appears in reality. This is primarily due to the machines render and nothing else. On the other hand, if you see a non-blurry 640X480 screenshot for DC,GC or X-Box then you know that that is what you expect to see in the game itself.
OHhh, and here's a GT demo shot...
and something from FROM...
YEAH, PS2 REALLY DIDN'T LIVE UP TO THAT...
Tell me, where do I send the bill for my broken irony-meter?
I'm interested to know at exactly what point you saw the light?
Tautology. "I threw my Grandmother in the pool, therefore she sank." You fell for the PS2 Hype; Sony achieves commercial success. You believe the DC is a failure, tell everyone you know to dump Sega, give your plug for Sony and then say: "I told you so!" when Sega trash the DC.
Great compared to what? 3DO? Do your retro-psychic abilities tell you what would have happened if people had considered Sony's claims in an honest and intelligent fashion? What if they had known what they know now? Don't you ever wonder what it might be like to playing on DC2 right now? You made your choice, so if you're happy with GTA~ being the pinnacle of gaming then have it your way and don't complain about people reminiscing about the good 'sol days of DC.
What may impress you is tiresome to many people. I had my fill back with DoA:HC. There's nothing technically impressive about various implementations of the same effect in any case.
The M2 did do depth-of-filed aka destination-based blurring. There's an old Gamefan issue with all the details. Virtua Tennis is one example I can think of off the top of my head, but it's worth mentioning that DC hardware was never fully-realised and I do remember reading quite a lengthy post somewhere about how similar fill-rate intensive effects could be achieved by using the strengths of the DC hardware.
Good for you.
*returns to playing VF5 on imaginary DC2*
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Warm Machine
Member
The DC was never around long enough to enjoy the benefits of modern light baking techniques or faux real time HDRI lighting.
I did, though. I never thought that original Tekken demo looked good. As for when I started to appreciate PS2, that was around the time of Twisted Metal Black (which I bought at launch along with Sonic Adventure 2 and its birthday pack). From there, Klonoa 2, ICO, Silent Hill 2, and MGS2 would all go down as some of the best gaming experiences I've had.
You're simply ignorant, Jeffahn. You are making so many assumptions (especially about my tastes) and claims with no factual information to back it up.
You probably haven't touched a PS2 game since 2000 as a lot of the problems you seem convinced about haven't really been problems as of late.
I'll set it straight right now. I actually really enjoyed all of the consoles. I do believe the DC is underpowered compared to the rest, but it is still a member of the same generation. However, I go where the games go. What bothers me are people that refuse to let go (like you). I DO love my DC still, but the claims people like you make drive me nuts (as they are just so false). What also bothers me are the people that claim that PS2 did not live up to its tech demos and claims from Sony. It absolutely did. You didn't address the lies presented by Microsoft, though. Double standard?
No, it wasn't done in Virtua Tennis. There was some frame buffer blurring effects, but they were fairly simple.
It did look awful in DOAHC...but it was incredible in Metal Gear Solid 2 (which IS what sold me on the hardware, as it was really impressive to behold). You are tired of an effect that is going to become more common? That's a shame, though you seem to enjoy playing imaginary games in your head more than real ones.
Compared to gaming as a whole. The GTA comment proves your ignorance as well. I'm not even a GTA fan, for christs sake. If you really think that's all the system is about, you need to open your eyes and look...
In all seriousness, what games DO you own today? Which systems do you own? Which PS2 games have you put any time in? I speak only through experience, but it certainly does not seem as if you do.
That's horseshit. Doctored screens are common on ALL current platforms.
dark10x said:
[Douglas in anime mode]Now you see the difference between us.
[Ryo's dad]You...
[Douglas]Yeah, that's right, I have way more detail goin' on.
[Ryo]Ouch, there's a loose triangle in my eye and my shoulder is killing me...
OK, how about one ultra random shot that I found on my laptop? Always like this place in God of War...
Game even supports 480p + 16:9 at 60 fps. Nice.
Some good points but how many characters were walking around in Silent Hill 3 as many as Shenmue?
If Dreamcast development had continued, multitexturing was one of the graphical areas where it had the most room still to grow. The system was equipped with a special texture blend buffer for custom effects, a rich set of blending modes including dot product bump mapping support, and internal maximum precision for color blending. It could've applied multiple creative effects up until its 100M-pix/sec actual fillrate limit.
Modifier volumes could've also stood more exploitation. They're great for shadows and self-shadowing and could've freed the polygon budget from that task, yet they could also have been used for inventive non-lighting based distortion effects and even been used as a tool for the programmer in visibility checks and application-driven rendering schemes. Combined with its multitexturing capabilities, the Dreamcast's ability to handle custom versions of modern games dressed in the stencil-shadow/normal-map look of Chronicles of Riddick/Doom3 would've been surprisingly good.
Modifier volumes could've also stood more exploitation. They're great for shadows and self-shadowing and could've freed the polygon budget from that task, yet they could also have been used for inventive non-lighting based distortion effects and even been used as a tool for the programmer in visibility checks and application-driven rendering schemes. Combined with its multitexturing capabilities, the Dreamcast's ability to handle custom versions of modern games dressed in the stencil-shadow/normal-map look of Chronicles of Riddick/Doom3 would've been surprisingly good.
ArcadeStickMonk
Member
Lazy, are you going to be touting the Dreamcast into next-gen as well?
If you're going show the DC some love, lavish it on the games, not this endless obfuscated tech nit-picking.
If you're going show the DC some love, lavish it on the games, not this endless obfuscated tech nit-picking.
SolidSnakex
Member
J_Mourinho said:
If you want then you can use SH2 as an example. Its character models also look much better than Shenmue's. If you want something closer to SH's genre then all you've really gotta do is compare RECV to an SH game to see how far ahead the PS2 is in comparison to the DC. RECV looks incredibly compared to an SH game.
SolidSnakex said:
How about some character model comparisons from similar games? I will leave Silent Hill 3 and Shenmue out of it, though.
In game (not cutscene) ...
[note]Eternal Arcadia >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Xenosaga...just for the record.
Cinematic beat-em-ups...
60 fps ^^
30 fps ^^
It's interesting, to be sure, but how much further do you really think it could go? I think those very speculations have allowed people to run wild with their imaginations. Suggesting that DC could handle something similar to Doom 3 or Riddick is just crazy. It may have been able to handle some of those techniques used, but using them all together is something entirely different. Obviously, the system could have been pushed further, but when you see geometry counts in launch PS2 games standing above similar DC games released right at the end of its life...I think we can infer something from that.
It isn't fair to compare something like MGS3 to a Dreamcast game, as MGS3 was released much later in the PS2's lifecycle. However, games like MGS2, The Bouncer, Silent Hill 2, GT3, etc. are all fair game. MGS2 was released as a playable demo before the system was even one year old (from Japanese release date). March 2000 marked the launch of PS2 and Feb 2001 saw the release of the MGS2 demo.
Project Midway
Member
man, I like Dreamcast but the games look really polygon starved when compared to this gen games.
Doom_Bringer
Banned
dark10x said:OK, how about one ultra random shot that I found on my laptop? Always like this place in God of War...
Game even supports 480p + 16:9 at 60 fps. Nice.
I loved that part, it was so beautiful!
dark10x said:
I'm sure the DC could pull off versions of certain games (not specifically the games mentioned above) but they would be graphically compromised compared to the original (e.g. RE4 on PS2). On another note - Skies was never considered to have detailed character models at the time of release.
carbonbased
Member
95 games? GTA3 on Dreamcast? :lol dark has owned each and every one of you fanatics, and I think it's about time to let go.
U.2.K. Tha Greate$t
Banned
I am shocked that nobody mention spawn for dreamcast, i was playing it early today and it seems like dreamcast can do a GTA game. Yall also forgot about this game:
http://www.gaming-age.com/cgi-bin/reviews/review.pl?sys=dreamcast&game=spawn
http://gaming-media.com/adventure/onsscreen.htm
http://www.gaming-age.com/cgi-bin/reviews/review.pl?sys=dreamcast&game=spawn
http://gaming-media.com/adventure/onsscreen.htm
SolidSnakex
Member
U.2.K. Tha Greate$t said:
Seriously, how did you play Spawn and come to the conclusion that the DC could handle GTA? Crazy Taxi is one thing, but Spawn? WTF?
From a gameplay perspective, it could pull almost any current games off...but there would almost always be sacrifices.
Do you really think the DC could handle something like Burnout 3, MGS3, Riddick (PS2 can't either), RE4, Ninja Gaiden Wreckless or God of War? There was no indication that any of those would be possible on DC. I'm not suggesting PS2 could handle all of those either, though.
One thing PS2 really did for the market, though, was make 60 fps a very common reality. 3rd party junk often failed to achieve it, but in terms of percentages, there is a higher percentage of 60 fps 3D games on PS2 than on any other system to date. More than DC, more than GC, and more than XBOX. Sure, sometimes image quality was sacrificed (though that hasn't been an issue as of late), but it was more than worth it (especially now, as the scaler I use with my HDTV actually enhances field rendered games to the point where they look shockingly close to 480p. "Teh jaggies" are no longer a problem). I loves me some 60 fps. I own a lot of PS2 titles (plenty of games on other systems too, of course) and 75% of them run at 60 fps.
I know. I don't want to insult Skies either, as I love it. However, there really weren't ANY DC RPGs with detailed character models. I chose Skies as it has my favorite looking character models. Also of note: the DC version used LOD on the characters depending on how many were on screen. The GC version of Legends used the high detail models in all scenes, however...
All these arguments are actually quite enjoyable to me. I do not want to give the impression that I hate Dreamcast or something, however. I adored the system and it marked some of the best times I've had with gaming. Realizing that the technology is now dated does not necessarily mean I hate the games or the system. It just bothers me a bit when people wear their rose colored glasses when discussing DC technology yet spew lies and half-truths about the PS2 (mostly rooted in 2000). That one crazy fella in this thread, for instance, talks as if he hasn't played a PS2 game since Street Fighter EX3!
Glad I busted out my capturing equipment, though. I had never found a picture of this SH3 scene on the net and it's nice to have it. I love some of the wierd shit in this game...
Dude, where on earth did that comment come from? I mean, seriously. That's why I love these threads.
How on earth does Spawn even begin to equate to "GTA3 on DC"?! It's a closed arena combat game with bad animation? Didn't play much Spawn, but Heavy Metal was actually pretty damn fun (and was a very similar game). Your comment is akin to saying "Oh, DC could run ChuChu Rocket...so it could OBVIOUSLY handle Doom 3". It makes no sense!
Like SSX said, Crazy Taxi is one thing...but Spawn?
U.2.K. Tha Greate$t
Banned
You forgot the second link :lol
Silent Hill has an ideal workload for displaying narrow perspective screenshots. Its levels are small enough to allow a comparatively large portion to contribute to the display at any one time, and its simultaneous characters are few enough to allow detail to be heavily concentrated on them. There is comparatively little AI and gameplay complexity with few dynamic conditions to be tracked outside of the immediate area. In essence, it can always run a high LOD.
Shenmue tracks a city full of characters and seamlessly streams them within levels. Time and weather are dynamic, and the characters' behaviors react according to their progression. Comparatively, more characters can be displayed at once in larger areas, so screenshots depicting close-ups from the game are not representing its scale. When the conditions are more confined like in Silent Hill, character detail shoots up as demonstrated by the Shenhua model in the game's prologue where the rest of world isn't being tracked.
Because of the dynamic elements, it takes a video, preferably, to demonstrate Shenmue's scale. Up-to-date movies chronicling those elements are hard to find, so the oldest footage from 1998 documentaries is unfortunately still one of the few resources which were made to show it:
http://www.fileplanet.com/dl/dl.asp?/planetxbox/shenmuedojo/oldclips/shenmuegamefanpromo.zip
In screenshots, the scope is harder to capture, but the range within these is at least a better comparative representation:
Shenmue supports native proscan output, too.
Even though DC's limited support from the development community didn't yield many high production games, it's graphics are still demonstratively competitive with a few games like Virtua Tennis, F355, Dead or Alive 2, and Sonic Adventure 2.
Shenmue tracks a city full of characters and seamlessly streams them within levels. Time and weather are dynamic, and the characters' behaviors react according to their progression. Comparatively, more characters can be displayed at once in larger areas, so screenshots depicting close-ups from the game are not representing its scale. When the conditions are more confined like in Silent Hill, character detail shoots up as demonstrated by the Shenhua model in the game's prologue where the rest of world isn't being tracked.
Because of the dynamic elements, it takes a video, preferably, to demonstrate Shenmue's scale. Up-to-date movies chronicling those elements are hard to find, so the oldest footage from 1998 documentaries is unfortunately still one of the few resources which were made to show it:
http://www.fileplanet.com/dl/dl.asp?/planetxbox/shenmuedojo/oldclips/shenmuegamefanpromo.zip
In screenshots, the scope is harder to capture, but the range within these is at least a better comparative representation:
Shenmue supports native proscan output, too.
Even though DC's limited support from the development community didn't yield many high production games, it's graphics are still demonstratively competitive with a few games like Virtua Tennis, F355, Dead or Alive 2, and Sonic Adventure 2.
U.2.K. Tha Greate$t
Banned
HEY EVERYBODY READ THIS THREAD:
http://www.dcemulation.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=49842&start=0
I got eveything on lockdown yall, dont worry.
http://www.dcemulation.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=49842&start=0
I got eveything on lockdown yall, dont worry.
dark10x said:
Did you say so before or after you dumped Sega?
Best experiences in terms of what? Did playing those games actually make you believe you'd be playing something significantly better five years later? Did you suddenly realise that the DC was released some time before the PS2, and would likely have a lower fill-rate and push less geometry? Did the potential future of DC gameplay seem to pale into insignificance in comparison to what was hyped to be forthcoming on the PS2?
???
Honestly, I haven't played a great variety of PS2 games, but I to have a chance to observe most of them in direct comparison to other consoles.
DC was/is weaker in terms of raw fill rate (as are both the X-Box and GC, but to lesser degrees in both cases) and geometry (X-Box 1st, with the GC abour on par (I think)) to the PS2. If you want to be fair you have to acknowledge that DC hardware was never close to being fully exploited, and that there were significant gains to be made. Another point to bear in mind is that the PS2 has terminal rendering problems -primarily as a result of the combination of limited VRAM and a flawed architecture. Developers have done there best to gloss over these problems but the tell-tale signs are still evident in all the top titles, and the attempts to workaround the PS2's flaws are always costly. Take GT3 for example. "A wonderful looking game..." people will say, "...except for that shimmering." I don't know long they worked on that filter; it fooled a lot of people but it didn't fool me.
You say you love your DC yet you were perfectly willing to trash for the PS2 on the basis of some hype? You said that you beleived the DC was underpowered and that you started appreciate the PS2 as a gaming machine (pp). I what sequence did these ideas emerge in your head? You need to confront your past before you confront your future. We'll be with you every step of the way. We are here to help.
To clarify once again. I never said that the PS2 failed to live up to the demos. I asked what happend to game with a hundred/s of spectators as alluded to by Namco and hyped by Sony-nutters on this very board. I had never actually seen the demo videos until your links. Regarding MS, I merely asked why you didn't dump the PS2 for the superior X-Box in the same was you had dumped DC for the allegedly superior PS2. I'm not here to defend anything to with the X-Box demo/s (I haven't actually even seen that particular demo in video form).
It's the same effect, just more subtle. Refer back to what I said about the fact that the DC still had much to exploit in terms of performance.
Taking the progression from MGS2 to MGS3, what graphical effects of technical significance does MGS3 have over MGS2? I'm not talking about assorted implemtations of the same effect I'm talking about novel effects that were not present in the first game. I can appreciate the novel implemenation of an existing technique, or the comibination of existing technigues to create a new effect, but what impresses me the most is novel/new effects.
Ironically enough, to many people, GTA is what the PS2 is about. A visual torture device -for even PS2. A fun game apparently, but still nothing approaching a hundred spectators to be seen.
I own VF4Evo, but I have never owned a PS2 (explain this to me?). I play VF competatively. I play PS2 games with friends occasionally. I mainly view PS2 titles in game shops around London. I play MAME, GENS etc. on my PC. I have been coming to GAF since some time in the 90's when Soul Edge came out (one of my first posts was about how the bg's in that game were done). I know Gavin from when I think he worked at SegaX with Matt, the Irish guy who I also later met. I know Adam from SegaWeb/Khhozo (whatever it is). I worked at cex.co.uk for a time in 2000 (until the .com bubble burst) and wrote most of the game descriptions for the games from that period.
I agree that doctored screens are the norm these days, but this was not the case before the PS2 came along. Sony practically pioneered the art of the doctored screenshot for the express purpose of whipping their legions of zealots into a frothing rage; MS and Nintendo have merely followed suite. The interesting thing about the DC shots you've posted is that I don't think that any of them are the right size, and is that D2? Like one of the first DC games ever released being compared to what? In-game being compared to cinemas? Using screenshots from gamestop? Do you have any sense of fairplay? If you really want a fair screenshot comparison then should really only compare DC and PS2 games that are VGA comaptible, because, in honest technical terms, any other PS2 screenshots are just not worth the screen reall estate they occupy. btw, also try to limit your PS2 screenshots to those of games contempory to the DC era. Good luck!
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MidgarBlowedUp
Member
"If Dreamcast Came Back"
One of two things have happened.
1. I have died, and for some reason have been sent to hell. My punishment is to play Shenmue where I'm inside my home watching the loading screen every time I open a door. "It's Thinking!" <- With all the loading screens the DC had you would figure it would make it's mind up eventually.
2. I fell through a time warp and have travelled back in time where playstation graphics with better textures are standard, and the prototype Xbox controller was simply a device used to speed up arthritus.
(I'm joking, I'm joking)
On the subject of DC vs PS2. I really can't understand the comparison.
There is no way DC would be running some of the games on PS2.
Not in any particular order, and I'm missing hundreds of titles here...
RE4, GT4, SH3, GoW, Zoe2, Path of Neo(Normal Mapping on PS2!), Transformers, Ico(Deffered Shading), Jak, Ratchet, Shadow of the Colossus, Genji, MGS3, MGS2, Tekken 5, FFXII, Rumble Roses(Amazing Silicone Physics), and I'm sure there are a ton more.
Upcoming games like Black or even older games like the Greatest Hits version of Silent Hill 2(Same graphics and content as Xbox) just aren't Dreamcast possible.
Now some of the older or low budget PS2 games I think Dreamcast could pull off. And I'm sure most of the 2D games on PS2 could be done on DC. But games I've listed just can't be done at all.
Soul Calibur was a very pretty game on DC but, Soul Calibur 3 on PS2 looks like an Xbox game that would even push the Xbox's hardware to the limit!
mms://wm2.streaming.ne.jp/namco/sc3web_0610.wmv
For the record, the DC did come with an optional upscan VGA adapter of some sort that ran at a really high resolution. I remember reading that it really 'cleaned up' DC games.
However, also keep in mind that the PS2 does RGB natively.
Also, quite a few games will run in 480p even though there is no documentation.
For example, Burnout 3 runs in 480p on PS2 but it isn't documented anywhere.
With the Blaze VGA adapter you can even make some games run in 480p that weren't programmed to do so.
One of two things have happened.
1. I have died, and for some reason have been sent to hell. My punishment is to play Shenmue where I'm inside my home watching the loading screen every time I open a door. "It's Thinking!" <- With all the loading screens the DC had you would figure it would make it's mind up eventually.
2. I fell through a time warp and have travelled back in time where playstation graphics with better textures are standard, and the prototype Xbox controller was simply a device used to speed up arthritus.
(I'm joking, I'm joking)
On the subject of DC vs PS2. I really can't understand the comparison.
There is no way DC would be running some of the games on PS2.
Not in any particular order, and I'm missing hundreds of titles here...
RE4, GT4, SH3, GoW, Zoe2, Path of Neo(Normal Mapping on PS2!), Transformers, Ico(Deffered Shading), Jak, Ratchet, Shadow of the Colossus, Genji, MGS3, MGS2, Tekken 5, FFXII, Rumble Roses(Amazing Silicone Physics), and I'm sure there are a ton more.
Upcoming games like Black or even older games like the Greatest Hits version of Silent Hill 2(Same graphics and content as Xbox) just aren't Dreamcast possible.
Now some of the older or low budget PS2 games I think Dreamcast could pull off. And I'm sure most of the 2D games on PS2 could be done on DC. But games I've listed just can't be done at all.
Soul Calibur was a very pretty game on DC but, Soul Calibur 3 on PS2 looks like an Xbox game that would even push the Xbox's hardware to the limit!
mms://wm2.streaming.ne.jp/namco/sc3web_0610.wmv
For the record, the DC did come with an optional upscan VGA adapter of some sort that ran at a really high resolution. I remember reading that it really 'cleaned up' DC games.
However, also keep in mind that the PS2 does RGB natively.
Also, quite a few games will run in 480p even though there is no documentation.
For example, Burnout 3 runs in 480p on PS2 but it isn't documented anywhere.
With the Blaze VGA adapter you can even make some games run in 480p that weren't programmed to do so.
dark10x said:
Here we go again with the retro-psychic reteoric. What technical basis do you have for saying that? Are you by any chance basing your allegation's on your last experince of DC graphics? Have we not been clear enough that the DC still had much to offer in terms of grphical performance, including features that no current console has? There would certainly be sacrfices if hypothetical direct ports/conversions were attempted, but the same would be true in converting past DC titles and even hypothetical future DC titles to the PS2. You also seem to forget that the DC was due to be superceded (in hypothetical terms) about 18 months ago, which means that it would probably be more fair to compare DC2 to PS2, or might that sound a tad unfair to you?
Almost all titles released in the last year to compete with the hypothetical DC2.
The PS2 can't even handle Burnout 3 properly.
Did your comparison with the DC limit itself to the period the DC was still alive? And did it, at the same time, exclude PS2 titles in which, as you put it "image quality was sacrificed"?
You know what they say, about traitors and enemies, which are more hated?
I think Lazy8 addressed this better than I could.
I liked the look of Outtriggers better...
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SolidSnakex
Member
Lazy8s said:
Mind showing us where you found this statistic?
There isn't even any reason to continue with you, as you're insane, but I'll do a few as it's fun. I am curious as to whether you posted on the GAF back in the day, though. I've been here since 1999, when Blast City was starting to die (thanks to Ice 9).
GC has 3mb of memory for its framebuffer, I believe.
Most of those image quality flaws have been addressed by most companies. Progressive scan games have become much more common on PS2, and even those that do not natively support progressive DO run with a full frame buffer and CAN run in 480p with the right tools. GT3 uses field rendering, GT4 was upgraded and can run in 480p or 640x1080i. GT4 uses higher resolution textures, more geometry detail, and runs in a higher resolution than GT3.
Field rendering WAS very common on PS2, but that has changed. Considering you have avoided playing any recent PS2 games, I doubt you would even realize that.
They were really fun games that left great memories for me. What more do I need? I had an absolute blast playing those games. ICO, Silent Hill 2, and MGS2 are three of my favorite gaming experiences of all time. It is possible to enjoy multiple genres, you know. I can have a great time playing Border Down, Gradius V, Daytona, or VOOT...but I can also have a great time playing entirely different games. Perhaps you should try embracing all of gaming. You might end up discovering that certain genres aren't for you, but at least you gave them a shot. Once again, this discussion was about hardware, which does not determine the games I enjoy playing. If I examine my favorite games over the past 5 years, I am not going to take hardware into consideration. Great art direction and technology certainly ADD to the experience, but it does not make it. The DC provided plenty of good memories and lots of great games, but there are simply MORE games on XBOX and PS2 that I enjoy. From the casual stuff like Halo, Metal Gear, Ninja Gaiden and RE4 to more unique titles like Katamari, Klonoa 2, Frequency, ICO, Phantom Dust, Dragon Quarter, JSRF, and Shin Megami Tensei. There are simply too many great games that aren't on the DC. By sticking to just that system, you are missing out on a lot of great gaming. I believe that anyone stating that PS2 (or XBOX and GC) has a poor library of games is flat out ignorant (in terms of gaming knowledge). They may not all appeal to YOU, of course, but surely you can recognize quality.
I didn't drop Sega, you know...Sega dropped me. As a console gamer, I WAS a huge Sega fan up until 2001. They have fallen, however. I own a lot of Sega games and some of my favorites of all time were made by Sega. They've simply let me down far too often recently and never deliver what I really want. If you are able to remain a fan for so long, that's cool, but you are chastising those who moved on. I'm insulted that you continue to claim that I fell into some bullshit hype. In the case of all current consoles, I did not support them until they had really started to go somewhere. I was there on 9-9-99 with the DC, though. My faith was in Sega. The only game machine I've purchased at launch since the DC was the PSP...
The fact of the matter is, finding GOOD DC shots is REALLLY tough to do. Unless you have some crazy source I know nothing of, there isn't much I can do. My Shenmue shots were captured from my own hardware, but those others were all I could find. I searched very hard for DC shots, while finding things for PS2 was simple. The internet simply wasn't as large back then and archives of DC pics sucked. That D2 shot is a cinema, you know. All of those PS2 shots are REALTIME captures. I only compared cinemas to cinemas and in game to in game. All fair play. I don't think I should need to limit my selections to the DC era, though it turns out that a lot of them are. MGS2, Silent Hill 2, and Bouncer are all fair game and were released when the DC was still alive somewhat. They were also released very early in the PS2's life time. Are yoy saying that it isn't fair to compare 1st gen PS2 titles to 3rd gen DC titles? Fatal Frame 2 and Xenosaga 2 are a bit out of line, of course, as they were released later.
Also, for the record, only The Bouncer was field rendered. All others used a full frame buffer and could be displayed in progressive scan. Those shots are accurate when using the right hardware. The Fatal Frame shot is sharper, though. The game IS very clear, however, but that is a bit better than the actual image quality.
I really can tell that you've had no experience with modern PS2 visuals based on those comments. Image quality just isn't an issue anymore (or at least, not very often).
Also, what's wrong with screens from GameSPOT? It's easy and fast to browse.
Why not find me some character models that compare if you disagree so much. Can ya do it?
Ironically enough, to many people, DC never existed.
You need to f*cking drop that hundred specators bullshit. The fact that you hang onto that ONE QUOTE proves that you are desperate as hell. You want a hundred spectators? How about a hundred mechs instead? Ever try the 1000 mech battle in ZOE2? Yeah, there was slowdown, but the screen was loaded.
I honestly don't understand exactly why you are acting so negative. You play ignorant when it is convenient (oh, I haven't SEEN those MS demos or even the PS2 demos before today...but I'm going to stick with my random comment from one developer). Unlike you, I've played hundreds of games across ALL CURRENT PLATFORMS. I speak from experience. You do not.
What kind of baseless comment is THAT?! Burnout 3 runs at 480p, 16:9 on PS2 with superior special effects over the XBOX version. The only plusses the XBOX version offers are slightly faster load times and custom soundtracks. Seriously, you just made that comment up.
MidgarBlowedUp, the sparks aren't the only thing. The blurring effects were massively reduced on XBOX as well.
GC has 3mb of memory for its framebuffer, I believe.
Most of those image quality flaws have been addressed by most companies. Progressive scan games have become much more common on PS2, and even those that do not natively support progressive DO run with a full frame buffer and CAN run in 480p with the right tools. GT3 uses field rendering, GT4 was upgraded and can run in 480p or 640x1080i. GT4 uses higher resolution textures, more geometry detail, and runs in a higher resolution than GT3.
Field rendering WAS very common on PS2, but that has changed. Considering you have avoided playing any recent PS2 games, I doubt you would even realize that.
They were really fun games that left great memories for me. What more do I need? I had an absolute blast playing those games. ICO, Silent Hill 2, and MGS2 are three of my favorite gaming experiences of all time. It is possible to enjoy multiple genres, you know. I can have a great time playing Border Down, Gradius V, Daytona, or VOOT...but I can also have a great time playing entirely different games. Perhaps you should try embracing all of gaming. You might end up discovering that certain genres aren't for you, but at least you gave them a shot. Once again, this discussion was about hardware, which does not determine the games I enjoy playing. If I examine my favorite games over the past 5 years, I am not going to take hardware into consideration. Great art direction and technology certainly ADD to the experience, but it does not make it. The DC provided plenty of good memories and lots of great games, but there are simply MORE games on XBOX and PS2 that I enjoy. From the casual stuff like Halo, Metal Gear, Ninja Gaiden and RE4 to more unique titles like Katamari, Klonoa 2, Frequency, ICO, Phantom Dust, Dragon Quarter, JSRF, and Shin Megami Tensei. There are simply too many great games that aren't on the DC. By sticking to just that system, you are missing out on a lot of great gaming. I believe that anyone stating that PS2 (or XBOX and GC) has a poor library of games is flat out ignorant (in terms of gaming knowledge). They may not all appeal to YOU, of course, but surely you can recognize quality.
I didn't drop Sega, you know...Sega dropped me. As a console gamer, I WAS a huge Sega fan up until 2001. They have fallen, however. I own a lot of Sega games and some of my favorites of all time were made by Sega. They've simply let me down far too often recently and never deliver what I really want. If you are able to remain a fan for so long, that's cool, but you are chastising those who moved on. I'm insulted that you continue to claim that I fell into some bullshit hype. In the case of all current consoles, I did not support them until they had really started to go somewhere. I was there on 9-9-99 with the DC, though. My faith was in Sega. The only game machine I've purchased at launch since the DC was the PSP...
The fact of the matter is, finding GOOD DC shots is REALLLY tough to do. Unless you have some crazy source I know nothing of, there isn't much I can do. My Shenmue shots were captured from my own hardware, but those others were all I could find. I searched very hard for DC shots, while finding things for PS2 was simple. The internet simply wasn't as large back then and archives of DC pics sucked. That D2 shot is a cinema, you know. All of those PS2 shots are REALTIME captures. I only compared cinemas to cinemas and in game to in game. All fair play. I don't think I should need to limit my selections to the DC era, though it turns out that a lot of them are. MGS2, Silent Hill 2, and Bouncer are all fair game and were released when the DC was still alive somewhat. They were also released very early in the PS2's life time. Are yoy saying that it isn't fair to compare 1st gen PS2 titles to 3rd gen DC titles? Fatal Frame 2 and Xenosaga 2 are a bit out of line, of course, as they were released later.
Also, for the record, only The Bouncer was field rendered. All others used a full frame buffer and could be displayed in progressive scan. Those shots are accurate when using the right hardware. The Fatal Frame shot is sharper, though. The game IS very clear, however, but that is a bit better than the actual image quality.
I really can tell that you've had no experience with modern PS2 visuals based on those comments. Image quality just isn't an issue anymore (or at least, not very often).
Also, what's wrong with screens from GameSPOT? It's easy and fast to browse.
Why not find me some character models that compare if you disagree so much. Can ya do it?
Ironically enough, to many people, DC never existed.
You need to f*cking drop that hundred specators bullshit. The fact that you hang onto that ONE QUOTE proves that you are desperate as hell. You want a hundred spectators? How about a hundred mechs instead? Ever try the 1000 mech battle in ZOE2? Yeah, there was slowdown, but the screen was loaded.
I honestly don't understand exactly why you are acting so negative. You play ignorant when it is convenient (oh, I haven't SEEN those MS demos or even the PS2 demos before today...but I'm going to stick with my random comment from one developer). Unlike you, I've played hundreds of games across ALL CURRENT PLATFORMS. I speak from experience. You do not.
What kind of baseless comment is THAT?! Burnout 3 runs at 480p, 16:9 on PS2 with superior special effects over the XBOX version. The only plusses the XBOX version offers are slightly faster load times and custom soundtracks. Seriously, you just made that comment up.
MidgarBlowedUp, the sparks aren't the only thing. The blurring effects were massively reduced on XBOX as well.
MidgarBlowedUp
Member
Fixed!
This whole argument is stupid. Dreamcast was my favorite system, but there is no way it could ever do a game like Metal Gear Solid 3. Jaffahn you are a biased fanboy idiot who hasn't even played any recent PS2 games, let alone Burnout 3 which you claim PS2 doesn't "handle properly" whatever that means. Dreamcast was a great system but you are either a joke or brain damaged. Get away from your computer and go back to dreaming about playing Dead or Alive Ultimate on Dreamcast instead of Xbox with dialup online play or whatever crap you think about. This thread has somehow gone from remembering how great Dreamcast and it's games were to blindly declaring it's graphical superiority over more modern systems, which is pointless and absurd.
Lazy8s said:
All 60 fps, native proscan support.
dark10x:
SEGA's arcade games since 1993 set the standard for 60 frames per second proscan in games.
60% of PS2 games run at 25/30 frames per second or less.
I see a lot of low poly games there. Sonic Adventure 2 is one of my favs (100% baby, with the secret Sonic 1 3D level unlocked!), but the game is very low poly. F355's intro is still pretty nice, but the in game visuals don't hold up as well. Simple tracks and blurry textures ahoy. DOA2 is great looking still, but has been outdone by all current systems (quite handily as well).
LOOK at that. Low poly as hell. You've just added to my points. DC = poly starved. This isn't 2000, ya know.
Not so low poly. 60 fps. Native progressive scan.
Sega's arcade games used to be way ahead of the curve too. PS2 made 60 fps common on all types of games. It still has the greatest percentage of 60 fps games, you know.
Oh, and how about those MGS2 particles? Got any similar situations on the DC for me?
Hell, have you even seen it in motion? I remember having an argument over MGS2 with cybamerc...and was shocked when I discovered that he had never even seen the game outside of screens. If there was one game that NEEDED to be seen in motion, this was it...
One nice thing is the Document of... disc. You can watch every cinema in the game and pause them at any time. From there, you can move the camera around in a free environment and analyze every scene from every angle. Very cool.
MidgarBlowedUp
Member
I know of a game on PS2 that has 10,000+ polygons per character and over 100 fully 3D spectators!
Rumble Roses
They aren't all displayed on the screen at one time, (maybe 50+) and you only have them inside the small arenas, and they are very low poly, but they are in there...
No screens to prove it, but here is a video...
http://www.wwxrumbleroses.com/downloads/movies/reikovscandy.wmv
*edit*
Here we go, this part isn't in-game and only shows one combatent but, it is a real-time intro.
100 spectators on screen at once, give or take a few: http://www.wwxrumbleroses.com/downloads/movies/KahnC2Intro.wmv
Rumble Roses
They aren't all displayed on the screen at one time, (maybe 50+) and you only have them inside the small arenas, and they are very low poly, but they are in there...
No screens to prove it, but here is a video...
http://www.wwxrumbleroses.com/downloads/movies/reikovscandy.wmv
*edit*
Here we go, this part isn't in-game and only shows one combatent but, it is a real-time intro.
100 spectators on screen at once, give or take a few: http://www.wwxrumbleroses.com/downloads/movies/KahnC2Intro.wmv
MidgarBlowedUp said:I know of a game on PS2 that has 10,000+ polygons per character and over 100 fully 3D spectators!
Rumble Roses
They aren't all displayed on the screen at one time, (maybe 50+) and you only have them inside the small arenas, and they are very low poly, but they are in there...
No screens to prove it, but here is a video...
http://www.wwxrumbleroses.com/downloads/movies/reikovscandy.wmv
*edit*
Here we go, this part isn't in-game and only shows one combatent but, it is a real-time intro.
100 spectators on screen at once, give or take a few: http://www.wwxrumbleroses.com/downloads/movies/KahnC2Intro.wmv
Don't forget to note; all of that runs at 60 fps.
MidgarBlowedUp:
SolidSnakex:
http://www.technology.scee.net/sceesite/files/presentations/PSP/HowFarHaveWeGot.pdf
dark10x:
Dot product emulation? Has any released PS2 game actually done this?
Deferred shading is a rendering approach which applies the texture and shader for determining a pixel's final color only after the pixel's visibility has been checked and validated. This ensures that the pixel is actually a part of the image before any drawing resources might be wasted on it. All modern graphics processing tries to avoid wasted work like this, but only the DC does it with 100% effectiveness because of its architecture.
The Xbox version has per-pixel lighting effects versus the per-vertex lighting in the PS2 games.
The Xbox's "limit" involves pixel shading and various higher standards of IQ.
The DC can natively output a 640x480 proscan VGA signal, so its VGA adapter delivers this to a monitor/HDTV.
Because they're hacked, many end up with broken color balances, screen distortions and artifacts, and scenarios in which the game will crash.
SolidSnakex:
It's a result of study into PS2 utilization with the Performance Analyzer by Sony:
http://www.technology.scee.net/sceesite/files/presentations/PSP/HowFarHaveWeGot.pdf
dark10x:
Burnout 3 on the Xbox also has better texture filtering and image quality.
Same visuals, different camera angles.
I love selective point addressing...
Anyways, capped some MGS2 stuff for fun (took out some of my other pictures for hosting space). I'd be thrilled if you could show me some games on DC that achieve similar effects at 60 fps (particularly in terms of depth of field and particles). It's not something everyone cares for, of course, but the particles + post processing + smooth models and animation really make for something nice looking.
The soft focus (seen in the last two shots, for example) is something I really find attractive when used properly.
Anyways, capped some MGS2 stuff for fun (took out some of my other pictures for hosting space). I'd be thrilled if you could show me some games on DC that achieve similar effects at 60 fps (particularly in terms of depth of field and particles). It's not something everyone cares for, of course, but the particles + post processing + smooth models and animation really make for something nice looking.
The soft focus (seen in the last two shots, for example) is something I really find attractive when used properly.
dark10x said:
I certainly did post here "back in the day". I was rounded-up by Shogmaster, I think it was, with a few others from hardcoregaming (where I was a contributor) to defend VF2 from somebody at GAF, something like that. Ice 9 (from Singapore?) was also at HG and actually met him last year when he came to play VF in London.
I explained earlier that the PS2 was a good idea, but badly implemented by inexperienced and over-ambitious Sony engineers. The GC is basically the same concept as the PS2 but far more elegantly engineered. Explaining this all in detail would be technical, but it is the truth.
With costs. Whether you have the capacity to comprehend it or not the legacy of the PS2's hardware design flaws persists.
Almost all DC games can be made to work through VGA and the only thing from preventing the bulk of the remainder from doing so is that the correct coding is not present, not due to an overiding technicality.
Does GT4 use more texture mapping overall, or just fewer higher resolution textures? I'm talking about raw texure data, not technically insignificant techniques used to create the impression of having more textures. If it is using more textures overall then how is this acheived, and which other games are using similar techniques?
I should hope it's changed by now, but it's still evident sporadically.
Funninly enough I can observe a game without playing it.
So your trying to say that Sega started making crap games around the time you decided defect to the Sony camp?
I hate to disappoint you so terribly, but playing more PS2 games won't make disown Sega.
Then why did it bother you that you believed that the DC was underpowered and apparently was incapable of certain effects you had determined to be the future of gaming?
Hang on here one second -your hopping around the timeline here like a veritable Marty McFly. You're comparing a mix of games and a system that did not compete with the DC. Why does the DC have to defend itself against anything beyond its era? Again, did you have the foresight to know that the titles you mentioned would have trounced their hypothetical competitors on the DC/DC2? These are the comparisons that have to be made, not DC to PS1.
I've never said that the PS2 has poor library of games. I've said that the PS2 's terminal rendering problems plague the system to this day, but the thrust of my argument is that you unjustifiably dumped Sega for the over-hyped PS2 and that Sega with DC/DC2 in competition with a hype-throttled PS2/GC/X-Box would have produced a much higher standard of gaming and a better experience for all gamers. Do you follow this? Just say that you follow and then state whether or not you agree with me, and if not, why not?
Apparently I can. Rather well actually.
What happened in 2001?
Have you ever considered that perhaps the actions you took back in 2000 epitomise the cumulative lack of reasonable thought that forced Sega to abandon the DC? Or do you believe that threw away alll that to spite you?
Perhaps you could still be enjoying new Sega experiences on novel hardware if you had chosen the road less travelled. Maybe, just maybe.
You've generated yourself a nice self-fulfilling phrophecy there. Dump Sega for the hype machine and then complain about the content they deliver. Nevermind that it cost them millions to scrap the DC.
I watched it happen.
I actually quite like the PSP, though a hypothetical Game Gear 2 would certainly best it.
I'm sure you spent a great deal of time selecting them especially for us. :lol
All the PS2 shots appear to be realtime. I didn't mean FMV when I said cinema.
You sometimes need the experience and know-how to spot where the sacrifices have been made, though I can hardly blame most people these days when it is the standard they have become accustomed to.
Gamespot are not known for the quality of their screenshots, this was established quite some time ago.
I'm sure Lazy8's is a better man for this challenge.
...and the relevance of this statement is?
It's an example to rabid hype-mongering that was so overwelming in those days. The talk about 70 million pps, Toy Story-graphics, plugging into the Matrix ect. etc. ...a mere symptom of the terrible disease, Hyper-Nutter-Zealoucy -the only cure being string bean soup, a padded cell and a Genesis with that 4-in-1 cart from 1992.
JFC, I hadn't seen the videos! And it owuldn't make a difference if I had becasue the demos in themselves have nothing to do with my argument, rather the hype that ensued following the 100 spectator comment.
Pissing contest!!!!
I have pictures I drew in 1981? of Pac-Man (Pac-Man was in a though bubble and I drew myself leering at some girl for some reason?!?). I have played uncoutable systems (Spectravideo, BBCMicro, Vic20, Speccy, Commie...all the usual..etc etc....custom arcade games few other people have played). I also have my own PC game.
The PS2's render is worse. Seen both running side-by-side. Terminal I'm afraid.
...
ArcadeStickMonk
Member
Dark, go to bed. What the fuck did we talk about today?
I said "The dude can't appreciate shit on an artistic level, he only wants to argue theoretical tech bullshit, so he's not gonna get blown away by MGS2 shots with they low poly environs and low res textures."
Did I not say that?
And what do you do? Post a fuck ton of MGS2 shots. Cheee-rist.
Do you recall what I suggested we do to counter these assinine threads? I'ma go to sleep; when I wake up, it's on.
I said "The dude can't appreciate shit on an artistic level, he only wants to argue theoretical tech bullshit, so he's not gonna get blown away by MGS2 shots with they low poly environs and low res textures."
Did I not say that?
And what do you do? Post a fuck ton of MGS2 shots. Cheee-rist.
Do you recall what I suggested we do to counter these assinine threads? I'ma go to sleep; when I wake up, it's on.
DCX
DCX
Hold up?! Why are we discussing PS2 VS DC? Who cares. Sega bailed, PS2 rules the world end of story. I love Dreamcast, still my best system and it still gets tons of play...as a matter of fact, it's my second most played system. Xbox>>>>DC>>>>PS2>>GC. DC didn't have the horsepower that PS2 has, but it killed in the image quality department. Almost like Genesis and SNES back in the day. SNES games always looked better, didn't mean they were.
Shenmue, remade for 360 would probably beat anything PS3 can throw out there....unless it was Shenmue 3
DCX
Shenmue, remade for 360 would probably beat anything PS3 can throw out there....unless it was Shenmue 3
DCX
More texture mapping overall. More variety and higher resolution textures. Huge difference. Maskrider had some nice comparison shots which demonstrated that fact well. All textures received a boost.
I don't think you can, as evident by this thread.
Are you trying to say that Sega's quality is the same post DC? There are plenty of great Sega games around still (REZ, VF4, JSRF, Gunvalkyrie, Panzer Orta, etc.), but they aren't what they used to be. Defect to the Sony camp, though? Why such harsh language? Why can't one enjoy them all?
I play games for fun, obviously. Graphical boosts are a great bonus, of course, but fun is where it is at. If all I cared about were graphical effects, do you think I would still have two Saturns with one connected to my HDTV (Saturn looks awful on an HD set BTW)? Good gaming is good gaming, regardless of visuals.
I didn't f*cking dump Sega, you twat. Good lord.
Why do you keep bringing up PS2 hype anyways? It's not as if I actually listened to that bullshit. I didn't bother with PS2 until it offered games I wanted to play. Why would I avoid a system with good games? I have a PS2 along with XBOX, GC, and two very fast gaming PCs. I support them all (unlike you).Sega: Yeah, we're killing the Dreamcast. F*ck you Sega fans and thanks for the support! Now we'll proceed to fall from glory and make a lot of average games. Let's drag old Sega classics through the mud while we're at it. That Virtua Quest sure will be fun!!!!11
What actions in 2000? I didn't buy a PS2 in 2000. I supported the DC like crazy that year (and what a year it was).
No, I don't think so. Not sure where "novel" hardware comes from either. What's so novel about Sega hardware? (outside of their past arcade boards).
IF I had listened to the hype machine and dumped Sega for it, you might have a point. I never did anything like that, though. Quit making assumptions.
Still waiting for it. Those low poly shots pretty much proved my points...
Yes, it was. I used to make fun of it too. However, I don't live in the past forever.
Oh, you're ONE comment. Man, you're just bringing the facts.
It's not really. The difference is VERY minor in 480p AND the effects are stronger on PS2. You said it "had trouble". Which is false.
OK, that's enough. Seriously. I might continue to respond, but perhaps I'll make you think a bit more. I dunno, your BS was fun at first...but it's growing tiresome. At least Lazy8s attempts to use factual information. You just sorta...make stuff up.
Aight, good idea.
MidgarBlowedUp
Member
Lazy8s said:
What I did get to see, however, was the striking technology at work. Though the demo on display wasn't running on an actual PS2 unit, the pre-recorded movies that Perry had with him were taken from a PlayStation development kit back at Shiny HQ. Regardless of where they came from, though, the visuals were extremely beautiful and acted as the catalyst to my eventual excitement. Path of Neo does things on PS2 previously thought impossible. Normal Mapping, for example, was shown to be entirely feasible on Sony's aging machine via a cool spotlight hitting a brick wall demo. For the unfamiliar, Normal Mapping is a technique that's used to add shading to without using polygons, but rather than calculate on a single channel as bump mapping does, it calculates on multiple channels -- creating realistic shadow and lighting effects that are usually only reserved for high-end Xbox ports. Other cool visual tricks, like light blooming, depth of field, reflection mapping, and other such buzz words were turned on to full effect for a result that was nothing less than beautiful. -IGN-
*added*
The most impressive moment of them all, though, was when Dave broke out his Agent Smith demo. Before showing it, he explained that he was a bit worried about recreating the Neo/Multiple-Smith showdown from the second and third films. His team wanted to ensure that it would be both fun and fast without looking too limited or without having to sacrifice the visuals established elsewhere in the game. Originally the team's main goal was to put 50 animated Agent Smiths onscreen at the same time, but one of their star programmers seemed to think he could best that by leaps and bounds. Needless to say, for my demo Perry ended up showing off a parking lot filled with 750 animated Agent Smiths at once -- all of which were running at a smooth framerate and without any of the cool special effects taking a major hit to do so. What really put his demonstration over the top, though, was that he then added a second layer of Smith's to the existing 750 for 1500 total Smiths in all. The framerate still didn't take a hit, each and every one of them were animated, and all of it was running on a PS2 dev kit. -IGN-
Too bad the DC can't handle ICO though.
That game even had individually rendered leaves on the tress and they reflected light.
I don't know the technical terms but it looked pretty. Shadow of the Colossus looks to expand on the idea, though i'm not so sure about the trees, but it does appear to have fur rendering like Tekken 5 did.
I don't know what each was doing but are you sure we are talking about the same game?
The GH version of SH2 was Restless Dreams for the Xbox. Not to be confused with the original SH2 for PS2.
MidgarBlowedUp
Member
I know I'm beating this like a dead horse, but it just tickled my fancy and I couldn't help myself. 100 spectators in-game, and it blows that Tekken demo completely away.
I tried to take some screen captures from the RR vids but they look terrible.
So, I did some searching on the net and came across a few shots that show the 3d crowd.
It's not a great screen but if you look really hard you can see chracters all the way back to the Contra signs...
And I have the game here at the house, the crowd is fully 3D.
Here is a model from the game... pretty far beyond the DC I'd say
And those aren't your stiff boobs either, those things truly act like they are filled with some type of liquid. Got Milk?
I tried to take some screen captures from the RR vids but they look terrible.
So, I did some searching on the net and came across a few shots that show the 3d crowd.
It's not a great screen but if you look really hard you can see chracters all the way back to the Contra signs...
And I have the game here at the house, the crowd is fully 3D.
Here is a model from the game... pretty far beyond the DC I'd say
And those aren't your stiff boobs either, those things truly act like they are filled with some type of liquid. Got Milk?
ShowDog said:
I have never claimed that the DC could do MGS3. Both machines have weaknesses, but the PS2 display rpoblems are terminal to the hardware and costly to alleviate or 'remedy'. In a hyprothetical scenario with rationality being the theme, DC games would have developed steadily and the system replaced by the DC2 around the end of 2003 in Japan. There were many other things going on behind the scenes that led to the demise of the DC, but the root cause was the irrational hype favouring Sony.
I have actually played Burnout 3 and enjoyed it, but I don't really regard it as cutting edge software in any department. I said the the PS2 doesn't handle Burnout 3 properly in comparison to the X-Box version for the reasons outlined by Lazy8.
I have never said that the DC is graphically superior. Graphics performance depends on many factors and the experts will confirm that the DC still had much left to exploit; certainly for another 18-24 months after its premature demise. The DC would certainly not be able to compete against the most recent top tiles, from the GC and X-Box in particular, in most visual critera, but this is a pointless argument because the DC was scheduled to be replaced by this stage in any event.
...
MidgarBlowedUp said:
I think I know who's behind this. It's probably Michael 'Saxs' Perssons -not exactly your average PS2 developer. He liked the Saturn hardware as a matter of fact, so you can image how keen he is on PS2. The game's still using RDAT,s o it's either him or his legacy. I can't tell who's working on the game from the Shiny site, but I'm downloading the preview.
Whether or not you believe the DC could reproduce every graphical nuance depicted in PS2 games is irrelevant. The DC could certainly have produced an ICO-type game. The graphics would be different, but certainly not inferior. Hardware always manges to produce something special in direct relation to how much effort is invested, something your story above alludes to; previously impossible feats are made real and the paradigm shift occurs.
...
After an exciting session of Half-Life DC, I have seen the error of my ways. The framerate may have been in the sub 15 fps area half the time (especially during that demanding tram sequence where one character model shows up on screen), but it is obvious to me that, had the system still be alive today, a game like Half-Life 2 would have been no problem.
Actually, using DC's insane modifier volume capabilities, they could likely have added a fully unified lighting model to the game ala Doom 3. I've heard rumors that the DC's graphics chip was so far ahead of its time that DX9-style operations are actually quite possible. The libraries were simply dated. Had the DC survived, though, we could have experienced the true power of the machine.
Imagine what the 128-bit power of the DC could have done for HL2. Remember the Strider battle in the city? Now imagine the DC version with 80 Striders on screen at one time (fully self-shadowed, of course).
I still can't believe how crazy the Sony hype was. I mean, while it turns out that the 100 specator comment actually DID come true (Rumble Roses puts more around the arena with more detailed main character models), another developer once stated that, with more time, they could have put 68 million spectators in the background of their fighting game. I can't believe anyone would actually believe such hype. 68 million spectators? PS2 totally failed to reach the original hype. I see it so clearly now.
Anyways, I've decided to sell all of my games as it is much more fun to play imaginary games in my hea...OH MY GOD...shew, almost got hit there. Damn, this is incredible. Why didn't I discover imaginary games earlier? The human brain may not be on par with the power of DC, but we can still dream, right? Who needs nextgen when I can play imaginary games in my head right now?
Not only would they not have been inferior, they would have been vastly SUPerior. Thanks to the DC's modifier volumes, they could have had self-shadowing on all...wait, the game already had self-shadowing. Ah, but you see, on DC, they could have taken it to a whole new level. They could have used 2048x2048 textures with 4 layers per surface on EVERY surface. You know the bottom of Yorda's foot? Yeah, that could be 4 2048x2048 textures...giving the game a new sense of textured realism. Oh, and the resolution? We're talking 1920x1080p here with 128x AA and 1.8 million x AF. Yeah, that's real power.
Let's compare DC's true power to PS2...
Notice the extensive use of modifier volumes?
Now, that same scene on PS2...
No, that's not the N64 game Aidyn Chronicles...that's actually the limit of the PS2. Notice the lack of ultra insane modifier volumes?
Remember the Killzone 2 "PS3" footage? Do you really know what that was running on? That rendered in realtime on the DC's Yamaha soundchip. The only feature of the PVR used was the modifier volumes. 60 fps on the DC's soundchip. Yeah, that's DC powa.
Actually, using DC's insane modifier volume capabilities, they could likely have added a fully unified lighting model to the game ala Doom 3. I've heard rumors that the DC's graphics chip was so far ahead of its time that DX9-style operations are actually quite possible. The libraries were simply dated. Had the DC survived, though, we could have experienced the true power of the machine.
Imagine what the 128-bit power of the DC could have done for HL2. Remember the Strider battle in the city? Now imagine the DC version with 80 Striders on screen at one time (fully self-shadowed, of course).
I still can't believe how crazy the Sony hype was. I mean, while it turns out that the 100 specator comment actually DID come true (Rumble Roses puts more around the arena with more detailed main character models), another developer once stated that, with more time, they could have put 68 million spectators in the background of their fighting game. I can't believe anyone would actually believe such hype. 68 million spectators? PS2 totally failed to reach the original hype. I see it so clearly now.
Anyways, I've decided to sell all of my games as it is much more fun to play imaginary games in my hea...OH MY GOD...shew, almost got hit there. Damn, this is incredible. Why didn't I discover imaginary games earlier? The human brain may not be on par with the power of DC, but we can still dream, right? Who needs nextgen when I can play imaginary games in my head right now?
Not only would they not have been inferior, they would have been vastly SUPerior. Thanks to the DC's modifier volumes, they could have had self-shadowing on all...wait, the game already had self-shadowing. Ah, but you see, on DC, they could have taken it to a whole new level. They could have used 2048x2048 textures with 4 layers per surface on EVERY surface. You know the bottom of Yorda's foot? Yeah, that could be 4 2048x2048 textures...giving the game a new sense of textured realism. Oh, and the resolution? We're talking 1920x1080p here with 128x AA and 1.8 million x AF. Yeah, that's real power.
Let's compare DC's true power to PS2...
Notice the extensive use of modifier volumes?
Now, that same scene on PS2...
No, that's not the N64 game Aidyn Chronicles...that's actually the limit of the PS2. Notice the lack of ultra insane modifier volumes?
Remember the Killzone 2 "PS3" footage? Do you really know what that was running on? That rendered in realtime on the DC's Yamaha soundchip. The only feature of the PVR used was the modifier volumes. 60 fps on the DC's soundchip. Yeah, that's DC powa.
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