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[Dystify]

Here's to hoping for an announcement at E3!

I doubt they would announce a 2011 release for Wii 2 just yet, seeing that it's still 1~1.5 years away.

They'd rather announce an up-port later on, if at all.

I hope I'm wrong though.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

Skyrim gameplay trailer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjqsYzBrP-M

I think 1:35 looks stunning with the magic lighting up the stream.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Please tell me why people believe that Cafe will do 1080P 60FPS? Every single console has the capability of doing 60FPS but devs don't and will never allow this on consoles since they can just increase the graphics instead. People need to give up this dream of 1080P and 60FPS on any next gen console, let alone Cafe. We still don't have 720P on games this gen, and people think that 1080P will be applied for the majority if not all games?

 

[bgassassin]

Pokemon Cafe! BELIEVE!

The long awaited Pokemon MMORPG to show of Nintendo's new robust online capabilities.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

Please tell me why people believe that Cafe will do 1080P 60FPS? Every single console has the capability of doing 60FPS but devs don't and will never allow this on consoles since they can just increase the graphics instead. People need to give up this dream of 1080P and 60FPS on any next gen console, let alone Cafe. We still don't have 720P on games this gen, and people think that 1080P will be applied for the majority if not all games?

I'm sure SOME Cafe games will run at 1080p 60fps. Not all, but some.

 

[AniHawk]

Competely agree with the latter, will never understand the former. PH was the best parts of Majora's Mask and Link's Awakening wrapped up in one oceany package.

spirit tracks at the very least had some of the best dungeons in the series. if we were to rank the games on dungeons alone, i'd say it's top five material. it has the worst fucking overworld by far and those stupid flute things, but the great parts are actually really great.

phantom hourglass is easily the overall worst in the series. it ruins the charm left from the wind waker, has a worse overworld than the wind waker, a few really short and easy dungeons, and by far the worst dungeon in the series (the temple of the ocean king or whatever).

on the story front, it's never as mysterious as majora's mask or link's awakening, and the ending was cheap as hell, making the experience on that front as worthless as the rest of the game.

 

[Dystify]

Please tell me why people believe that Cafe will do 1080P 60FPS? Every single console has the capability of doing 60FPS but devs don't and will never allow this on consoles since they can just increase the graphics instead. People need to give up this dream of 1080P and 60FPS on any next gen console, let alone Cafe. We still don't have 720P on games this gen, and people think that 1080P will be applied for the majority if not all games?

Current-gen games ported to Cafe should be able to do 1080p / 60 FPS, yes.

Next-gen games are a whole different matter, developer might just go for grahpics over 60 FPS / 1080p again.

 

[Gamer @ Heart]

Please tell me why people believe that Cafe will do 1080P 60FPS? Every single console has the capability of doing 60FPS but devs don't and will never allow this on consoles since they can just increase the graphics instead. People need to give up this dream of 1080P and 60FPS on any next gen console, let alone Cafe. We still don't have 720P on games this gen, and people think that 1080P will be applied for the majority if not all games?

Because its very unlikely that the early ports or games built of current engine tech will push the system. Instead, they will probably maximize how they run on Cafe like the PC versions of these popular games can given the proper hardware. Later on, when the system is being pushed and engines rebuilt and made more scalable, they might settle a little lower to push the details as you say.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

Current-gen games ported to Cafe should be able to do 1080p / 60 FPS, yes.

Next-gen games are a whole different matter, developer might just go for grahpics over 60 FPS / 1080p again.

Exactly, thank you.

 

[Nirolak]

Current-gen games ported to Cafe should be able to do 1080p / 60 FPS, yes.

Next-gen games are a whole different matter, developer might just go for grahpics over 60 FPS / 1080p again.

I would be really surprised if even 15% of developers made the effort to port their games well enough that they ran at 1080p/60FPS.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Current-gen games ported to Cafe should be able to do 1080p / 60 FPS, yes.

Next-gen games are a whole different matter, developer might just go for grahpics over 60 FPS / 1080p again.

But we're assuming that the developers won't improve the graphics on the ports thereby removing the capability of 1080P/60FPS. 1080P/60FPS doesn't sell the masses, better graphics does.

Exactly, thank you.

Any game this gen is CAPABLE of 60FPS. The question isn't whether they're CAPABLE, its what do the devs have to sacrifice in order to get it to run 60FPS. Why would developers do 60FPS/1080P when the masses couldn't care less about those features instead of improving the graphics which is a major selling point to the masses?

 

[Gamer @ Heart]

I would be really surprised if even 15% of developers made the effort to port their games well enough that they ran at 1080p/60FPS.

But the architecture is suppose to be super friendly to porting right? Maybe 17%?

 

[nextgeneration]

Please tell me why people believe that Cafe will do 1080P 60FPS? Every single console has the capability of doing 60FPS but devs don't and will never allow this on consoles since they can just increase the graphics instead. People need to give up this dream of 1080P and 60FPS on any next gen console, let alone Cafe. We still don't have 720P on games this gen, and people think that 1080P will be applied for the majority if not all games?

Yup, people need to accept that this will never happen and just move on. The only way it could possibly happen is if Nintendo/Sony/Microsoft make it a requirement that all games run at 1080p/60fps. If that were to ever happen, there are going to be a lot of upset graphic whores, as developers will have to scale back their graphics to make their games adhere to this requirement.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

Didn't Ridge Racer 7 on PS3 run at 1080p 60fps?

 

[Gamer @ Heart]

Didn't Ridge Racer 7 on PS3 run at 1080p 60fps?

Being super smooth is kind of what that series is known for so it makes sense. Things dont need as much detail when your zooming by them with a shit ton of motion blur, so they could pull it off.

 

[Nirolak]

But the architecture is suppose to be super friendly to porting right? Maybe 17%?

Well, there's easy porting and then there's restructuring your engine to actually take advantage of the hardware.

There are console ports that can barely run at 1080p/60FPS on PCs that are 10-20+ times more powerful than today's consoles.

I personally expect most ports will be 720p/30FPS, but that the 30 FPS will actually be solid and they might throw on some AA/AF or load higher quality textures at all times.

 

[Dystify]

I would be really surprised if even 15% of developers made the effort to port their games well enough that they ran at 1080p/60FPS.

But we're assuming that the developers won't improve the graphics on the ports thereby removing the capability of 1080P/60FPS. 1080P/60FPS doesn't sell the masses, better graphics does.



Any game this gen is CAPABLE of 60FPS. The question isn't whether they're CAPABLE, its what do the devs have to sacrifice in order to get it to run 60FPS. Why would developers do 60FPS/1080P when the masses couldn't care less about those features instead of improving the graphics which is a major selling point to the masses?

The ideal case, in my opinion, would be a port to Cafe which keeps the graphics the same but but ups the FPS and resolution. This is certainly possible with the supposedly higher power of the Cafe, but probably not realistic since devs are apparently lazy and rather do a quick cash-in in most / many cases.

 

[EatChildren]

I doubt we'll see many current gen games ported to 1080p unless the hardware is really leagues ahead of the current gen. Even if the hardware can technically do it, most publishers will likely rush ports to the system and stay with 720p.

Stuff like Skyrim is a bit weird too. It will be out a good few months before the Cafe launches, so even if a 1080p port hit the system it really wouldn't make a difference on sales. Nintendo cant rely off ports from games that released months prior, just playing catch up.

 

[beast786]

Being super smooth is kind of what that series is known for so it makes sense. Things dont need as much detail when your zooming by them with a shit ton of motion blur, so they could pull it off.

I thought Motion blur takes a lot of resources?

 

[Gamer @ Heart]

The ideal case, in my opinion, would be a port to Cafe which keeps the graphics the same but but ups the FPS and resolution. This is certainly possible with the supposedly higher power of the Cafe, but probably not realistically since devs are apparently lazy and rather do a quick cash-in in most / many cases.

While the reality of that last bit might be true, i wouldnt blame it sorely on the dev. Its a time and money issue with the publisher. Devs want to make games they are proud of be as great as possible.

 

[Nirolak]

I thought Motion blur takes a lot of resources?

It depends what kind of motion blur they're doing.

Per object motion blur is really expensive, but tends to look pretty great.

Screen based motion blur is pretty cheap and is used a lot to hide quality, and tends to look kind of bad.

 

[Dystify]

While the reality of that last bit might be true, i wouldnt blame it sorely on the dev. Its a time and money issue with the publisher. Devs want to make games they are proud of be as great as possible.

Hm, I did kind of word it badly. It's not always just cash-ins, but often just rush jobs, like Nirolak said, to meet a certain date or not use more than X resources on the port, depending on the publisher, etc.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

The ideal case, in my opinion, would be a port to Cafe which keeps the graphics the same but but ups the FPS and resolution. This is certainly possible with the supposedly higher power of the Cafe, but probably not realistic since devs are apparently lazy and rather do a quick cash-in in most / many cases.

I agree with this post. Hopefully Bethesda will see fit to simply keep Skyrim's graphics the same on Cafe but bump the resolution and framerate, should we be blessed with a Cafe version of Skyrim.

 

[Father_Brain]

If Bethesda or anyone else releases Cafe ports 5+ months after the PS3/360/PC versions, well... let's hope they don't use the resulting sales figures as a basis for judging the viability of support for the platform, because I suspect it won't be a pretty picture.

 

[shadyspace]

spirit tracks at the very least had some of the best dungeons in the series. if we were to rank the games on dungeons alone, i'd say it's top five material. it has the worst fucking overworld by far and those stupid flute things, but the great parts are actually really great.

phantom hourglass is easily the overall worst in the series. it ruins the charm left from the wind waker, has a worse overworld than the wind waker, a few really short and easy dungeons, and by far the worst dungeon in the series (the temple of the ocean king or whatever).

on the story front, it's never as mysterious as majora's mask or link's awakening, and the ending was cheap as hell, making the experience on that front as worthless as the rest of the game.

I loved pretty much everything about Phantom Hourglass. It infact reignited my faith in the franchise after the utter disappointment I found Twilight Princess to be. I loved that you were yet again the Hero of Winds. I loved the steamboat. I loved the more compact overworld with less but more populated islands. I loved the refocusing on sidequests. I loved how you basically played the Luke to Ciela's Leia and Linebeck's Han. I loved the controls, and found them immensely satisfying. I LOVED the Temple of the Ocean King, hiding and running away from the Phantoms provided a sense of tension I had never experienced in a Zelda game which I found super refreshing. And I loved the ending and how it was an homage to Link's Awakening.



I hated just about everything in Spirit Tracks. Oh well, to each his own.

 

[Nirolak]

If Bethesda or anyone else releases Cafe ports 5+ months after the PS3/360/PC versions, well... let's hope they don't use the resulting sales figures as a basis for judging the viability of support for the platform, because I suspect it won't be a pretty picture.

I'm kind of curious how current 3DS software sales are going to effect support for that system, but perhaps they won't since the companies most likely to support the system have already jumped on with larger projects.

 

[Big One]

I loved pretty much everything about Phantom Hourglass. It infact reignited my faith in the franchise after the utter disappointment I found Twilight Princess to be. I loved that you were yet again the Hero of Winds. I loved the steamboat. I loved the more compact overworld with less but more populated islands. I loved the refocusing on sidequests. I loved how you basically played the Luke to Ciela's Leia and Linebeck's Han. I loved the controls, and found them immensely satisfying. I LOVED the Temple of the Ocean King, hiding and running away from the Phantoms provided a sense of tension I had never experienced in a Zelda game which I found super refreshing. And I loved the ending and how it was an homage to Link's Awakening.



I hated just about everything in Spirit Tracks. Oh well, to each his own.

How could you possibly love those about Phantom Hourglass when Spirit Tracks does the exact same things but better?

 

[Luigiv]

Whilst I doubt 60FPS will ever be a standard, 1080p being standard next gen is a given. Think of it like how whilst the PSX, N64 and Saturn were all capable of 480i, it wasn't until the PS2, GCN and Xbox that we saw it become a standard. History will repeat itself. Next gen, resolution related bottlenecks will be far less severe.

 

[FoneBone]

I'm kind of curious how current 3DS software sales are going to effect support for that system, but perhaps they won't since the companies most likely to support the system have already jumped on with larger projects.

I'm... Not seeing the connection.

 

[beast786]

It depends what kind of motion blur they're doing.

Per object motion blur is really expensive, but tends to look pretty great.

Screen based motion blur is pretty cheap and is used a lot to hide quality, and tends to look kind of bad.

Thanks.

I assume screen based example would be like infamous draw distance blurring. Per object motion blur would be in God of war 3.

Makes sense.

Thanks again.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

Whilst I doubt 60FPS will ever be a standard, 1080p being standard next gen is a given. Think of it like how whilst the PSX, N64 and Saturn were all capable of 480i, it wasn't until the PS2, GCN and Xbox that we saw it become a standard. History will repeat itself. Next gen, resolution related bottlenecks will be far less severe.

Good point.

 

[Grampa Simpson]

Can we all get back to a reasonable discussion here, before this thread gets shut down? I'm trying to save this thread.


Can we get started again?

I'll start over with something.


Does anyone here believe Nintendo will ask AMD to customize the R7xx GPU (whatever it is) with on-chip memory (EDRAM) ?

Let me postulate a system design then.

Design a system based around a RV740 at 40nm (~80 watts) and a 4 core variation of the IBM 476FP:

https://www-01.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/D393643EC6B662E78525763200547AED/$file/476fp_wp_04_07_2011.pdf

Marry 1gig of GDDR5 to the RV740 and 1gig of DDR3 to the 476FP.

Add 2 SATA ports for a BD-ROM and an optional hard drive, and then a USB Bus for USB ports and a USB-SD conversion. Call it done.

Spoiler

Yay - my Nick Change happened!!!

 

[iamaustrian]

If Bethesda or anyone else releases Cafe ports 5+ months after the PS3/360/PC versions, well... let's hope they don't use the resulting sales figures as a basis for judging the viability of support for the platform, because I suspect it won't be a pretty picture.

you can bet your butt that some 3rd parties will use ports of super old games as tests.
You know, kinda like Capcom and co and their neverending useless Wii-Tests.

 

[Nirolak]

I'm... Not seeing the connection.

He's talking about third parties making future product decisions based upon the sales of late ports.

I'm suggesting that what happens with the 3DS might be an interesting sign of what will happen there, but maybe not since third parties that are likely to support the system have signed up pretty far into the future with the 3DS already.

I'll go bold stuff in my original quote to make it more clear.

 

[Mr_Brit]

He's talking about third parties making future product decisions based upon the sales of late ports.

I'm suggesting that what happens with the 3DS might be an interesting sign of what will happen there, but maybe not since third parties have signed up pretty far into the future with the 3DS already.

I'll go bold stuff in my original quote to make it more clear.

Have they really? I thought the majority of third parties were still reticent to support the 3DS, I can't think of any major western third party games coming for it, then again there might be some at E3.

 

[Nirolak]

Have they really? I thought the majority of third parties were still reticent to support the 3DS, I can't think of any major western third party games coming for it, then again there might be some at E3.

Oh sorry, I mean only of the ones that are likely to. I should have retained that in my second post.

Basically, publishers like Square Enix, Capcom, Level 5, and Konami have a fairly solid line-up announced, and if you add in Sega and Namco, that's about everyone I expected to.

 

[Mr_Brit]

Oh sorry, I mean only of the ones that are likely to. I should have retained that in my second post.

Basically, publishers like Square Enix, Capcom, Level 5, and Konami have a fairly solid line-up announced, and if you add in Sega and Namco, that's about everyone I expected to.

Right got you, what is your opinion on the chances of Western third parties supporting the 3DS properly in the future? Likely or never going to happen?

 

[Nirolak]

Right got you, what is your opinion on the chances of Western third parties supporting the 3DS properly in the future? Likely or never going to happen?

As it stands, I'm very pessimistic about it, since the few that seemed possible are supporting tablets and iOS instead. I'm also not seeing any signs on fiscal year release schedules of that changing.

Well, correction, I expect Majesco to support it well, but not with the types of titles GAF is interested in.

 

[Mr_Brit]

As it stands, I'm very pessimistic about it, since the few that seemed possible are supporting tablets and iOS instead. I'm also not seeing any signs on fiscal year release schedules of that changing.

Well, correction, I expect Majesco to support it well, but not with the types of titles GAF is interested in.

Right, that's a shame after all the fuss Nintendo made about third party support, this doesn't bode well for Wii 2 either. Then again Nintendo kind of screwed themselves with the 3DS, high price, ancient architecture, 1999 online infrastructure, no dual analog. If Nintendo correct all those mistakes with Wii 2 then there's a much higher chance of them getting good Western third party support, if not then they're likely to end up like the 3DS.

 

[watershed]

As it stands, I'm very pessimistic about it, since the few that seemed possible are supporting tablets and iOS instead. I'm also not seeing any signs on fiscal year release schedules of that changing.

Well, correction, I expect Majesco to support it well, but not with the types of titles GAF is interested in.

I think this will be mostly true for the 3ds but like the ds before it I still expect the 3ds to develop a great portfolio of games over its lifetime. Somehow a Nintendo handheld without a multitude of great games seems like an oxymoron.

 

[Grampa Simpson]

As it stands, I'm very pessimistic about it, since the few that seemed possible are supporting tablets and iOS instead. I'm also not seeing any signs on fiscal year release schedules of that changing.

Well, correction, I expect Majesco to support it well, but not with the types of titles GAF is interested in.

Ubisoft might continue to throw support to the system. We'll see if that's more splinter cell or if it's imagine babiez party, but so far it's not looking so bad.

 

[Nirolak]

Right, that's a shame after all the fuss Nintendo made about third party support, this doesn't bode well for Wii 2 either. Then again Nintendo kind of screwed themselves with the 3DS, high price, ancient architecture, 1999 online infrastructure, no dual analog. If Nintendo correct all those mistakes with Wii 2 then there's a much higher chance of them getting good Western third party support, if not then they're likely to end up like the 3DS.

Ubisoft might continue to throw support to the system. We'll see if that's more splinter cell or if it's imagine babiez party, but so far it's not looking so bad.

On this note, their third party efforts seem to have had a slight amount of success.

Ghost Recon was actually a good game, and this year's FIFA 3DS game seems to be actual FIFA.

I think this will be mostly true for the 3ds but like the ds before it I still expect the 3ds to develop a great portfolio of games over its lifetime. Somehow a Nintendo handheld without a multitude of great games seems like an oxymoron.

Oh, I'm sure it will have a great library. It's just that I expect it to all come from Nintendo and the previously mentioned six Japanese publishers.

 

[Tron 2.0]

As it stands, I'm very pessimistic about it, since the few that seemed possible are supporting tablets and iOS instead. I'm also not seeing any signs on fiscal year release schedules of that changing.

Well, correction, I expect Majesco to support it well, but not with the types of titles GAF is interested in.

I think, in general, Western publishers seem disinterested in handheld consoles. I'd say their support of both the NDS and the PSP has been abysmal.

That doesn't look to be changing with the 3DS.

 

[watershed]

Oh, I'm sure it will have a great library. It's just that I expect it to all come from Nintendo and the previously mentioned six Japanese publishers.

Oops I didn't finish my thought. I meant to say that in addition to that, I don't think that there is a very significant connection between the software that ends up on Nintendo's handhelds versus the software that comes to their consoles.

A few examples, Square Enix didn't put much of anything on the wii (dragon quest X doesn't count yet) but the ds saw a ton of strong Square efforts.

Reverse, Rockstar wouldn't go anywhere near the wii but put out Chinatown Wars on the ds (a good game imo). I admit these examples are cherry-picked.

For the 3ds I predict the same companies that were successful on the ds will continue to make games for the 3ds with N-Space, Ubisoft, and maybe EA being the only western devs to support it.

But for the cafe, I can see it getting a number of trilogies, anthologies, collections early in its life like Assassin's Creed Anthology or Mass Effect Trilogy (I'm being very optimistic that 3rd parties will give us multiple games in one package for $60). From that point on the sales of these early "tests" will determine the kind of support it receives. 3rd party exclusives? Not counting on it. Ports of every multi-plat? Why not?

 

[Grampa Simpson]

That doesn't look to be changing with the 3DS.

I'm beginning to think that EA and Activision have forgotten how to do anything other than the blockbuster and make it work. I also think that most western developers have stars in their eyes and have little interest in doing anything that isn't a blockbuster.

I wonder if we'll ever start really seeing western 10 man development teams again outside of iphone development.

 

[Nirolak]

I'm beginning to think that EA and Activision have forgotten how to do anything other than the blockbuster and make it work. I also think that most western developers have stars in their eyes and have little interest in doing anything that isn't a blockbuster.

I wonder if we'll ever start really seeing western 10 man development teams again outside of iphone development.

Yeah, basically Western handheld development resources are going to four different fields:

1.) iPhone/iPad development.
2.) Social/Facebook games.
3.) free2play games.
4.) Downloadable titles for XBLA/PSN/Steam.

I have seen a lot of interviews with small/indie developers who wanted to make a game for handhelds, but got refused by literally every Western publisher, so they turned it into an iOS or downloadable game instead.

Oops I didn't finish my thought. I meant to say that in addition to that, I don't think that there is a very significant connection between the software that ends up on Nintendo's handhelds versus the software that comes to their consoles.

A few examples, Square Enix didn't put much of anything on the wii (dragon quest X doesn't count yet) but the ds saw a ton of strong Square efforts.

Reverse, Rockstar wouldn't go anywhere near the wii but put out Chinatown Wars on the ds (a good game imo). I admit these examples are cherry-picked.

For the 3ds I predict the same companies that were successful on the ds will continue to make games for the 3ds with N-Space, Ubisoft, and maybe EA being the only western devs to support it.

But for the cafe, I can see it getting a number of trilogies, anthologies, collections early in its life like Assassin's Creed Anthology or Mass Effect Trilogy (I'm being very optimistic that 3rd parties will give us multiple games in one package for $60). From that point on the sales of these early "tests" will determine the kind of support it receives. 3rd party exclusives? Not counting on it. Ports of every multi-plat? Why not?

Yeah, there doesn't tend to be much of a relationship.

That said, I'm not entirely convinced we will see a lot of compilations, since late ports tend to do badly.

EA couldn't even do a Mass Effect trilogy for example, because Microsoft owns the rights to the first game.

In the end, I think Nintendo's goal with third parties on the Cafe is to avoid either a Wii or a GameCube situation (depending on hardware), and we should see signs of how that's going at E3.

 

[rpmurphy]

One thing I wonder is if we may not see MS IP's on a Nintendo handheld again, if MS is going to take gaming on their mobile platform seriously and get those on it instead.

 

[watershed]

Yeah, basically Western handheld development resources are going to four different fields:

1.) iPhone/iPad development.
2.) Social/Facebook games.
3.) free2play games.
4.) Downloadable titles for XBLA/PSN/Steam.

I have seen a lot of interviews with small/indie developers who wanted to make a game for handhelds, but got refused by literally every Western publisher, so they turned it into an iOS or downloadable game instead.

To be fair considering how most IOS games sell, those Western publishers may have made the right decision. I know people like to big up the app store but 99% of whats on there, apps and games, are utter crap. I would never want to see Nintendo's 3dsware, cafeware, Sony's PSN, or 360's XBLA cluttered full of that stuff.

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

I'm kind of curious how current 3DS software sales are going to effect support for that system, but perhaps they won't since the companies most likely to support the system have already jumped on with larger projects.

Shipment results we know of so far;

Nintendogs + Cats: 1,710,000 as of 3/31/11
Super Street Fighter IV 3D Edition: over 1,000,000 as of 4/8/11
Super Monkey Ball 3D: 350,000 as of 3/31/11
Samurai Warriors Chronicles: 260,000 as of 3/31/11

 

[magash]

Yeah, basically Western handheld development resources are going to four different fields:

1.) iPhone/iPad development.
2.) Social/Facebook games.
3.) free2play games.
4.) Downloadable titles for XBLA/PSN/Steam.

I have seen a lot of interviews with small/indie developers who wanted to make a game for handhelds, but got refused by literally every Western publisher, so they turned it into an iOS or downloadable game instead.

Its rather remarkable how incompetent western publishers are. Level 5 has made almost all of its fortunes because of the DS.
So they would rather develop games for the profitless iOS devices instead of developing for the DS? No wonder the gaming market is on its knees.