freenudemacusers
Member
well i guess i completely do not understand valnen's point about 'well sometimes people like being talked to in a rough/dirty manner'. can you tell me? cuz i don't get it. i mean, this is a page 14 post you quoted.
IndieStatik Founder apologizes for "inappropriate" comments to female game dev
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VanquishUK
Member
What a tit.
Moved from the bottom of the previous page -
To the question of what should be done about Josh:
He should be shamed, of course. His actions were shameful and now that they're public part of the reaction will be to have shame.
Should he be ostracized from Video Games(tm) for ever?
Absolutely not.
He could, given the proclivity of humans to forgive other humans, use this as a real turning point in his life. Make sure he really understands why what he said was wrong and how he can go about preventing stuff like this from happening in the future. It's a pretty simple road to redemption.
Step 1: Apologize (which he's done... in a ham-fisted way)
Step 2: Retreat from public life for a bit to educate yourself on what you did, why it was wrong, and what you can do to stop it from happening in the future.
Step 3: Emerge from your douchey cocoon and engage with people about the issue in a professional and reasonable way. Spread your newly gained knowledge to other people in the industry and promote a generally healthy and happy work environment for all people of all gender and race and nationality and religion.
The thing is, it's up to Josh now to change how we view him.
We aren't going to just sleep on it, wake up, and say 'Okay we've shamed him enough lets forgive him without any reason'.
To the question of what should be done about Josh:
He should be shamed, of course. His actions were shameful and now that they're public part of the reaction will be to have shame.
Should he be ostracized from Video Games(tm) for ever?
Absolutely not.
He could, given the proclivity of humans to forgive other humans, use this as a real turning point in his life. Make sure he really understands why what he said was wrong and how he can go about preventing stuff like this from happening in the future. It's a pretty simple road to redemption.
Step 1: Apologize (which he's done... in a ham-fisted way)
Step 2: Retreat from public life for a bit to educate yourself on what you did, why it was wrong, and what you can do to stop it from happening in the future.
Step 3: Emerge from your douchey cocoon and engage with people about the issue in a professional and reasonable way. Spread your newly gained knowledge to other people in the industry and promote a generally healthy and happy work environment for all people of all gender and race and nationality and religion.
The thing is, it's up to Josh now to change how we view him.
We aren't going to just sleep on it, wake up, and say 'Okay we've shamed him enough lets forgive him without any reason'.
Kind of crazy seeing something like this laid out. Really sort of reminds me that people who are put together enough to make their own company can still be this utterly clueless. I can only imagine how mortifying this all is for all people involved. Let this be a lesson, if you're the type of person who doesn't immediately see the "stop flirting with me" signs in that conversation, it would really do you good to try and suss them out.
NoirVisage
Banned
I totally forgot I quoted him, apologies, I was agreeing with the fact that blunt sexual advances happen in real life, but regardless of what direction he was going with that, no one wants to explore that, just the black and white fact that him sexually harassing her was dead wrong.
Someone brought up autism before (in regards to David Jaffe) that's not far of the mark for some with varying degrees of that, sussing that person out is probably impossible for them, as it wouldn't be for someone who is more adjusted.
Nymphae
Banned
Why?
NoirVisage
Banned
To specifically address an issue that had been brought up on the previous page in a more readable position.
Forgive me.
*placate*
Nymphae
Banned
I got that. I was being an asshole because he was posting a big post again from the previous page. Do we need to bump our own posts within threads?
Edit: But I see it has actually been moved, not copied, so my bad!
BronsonLee
Member
I tried to catch up to this thread, but only made it halfway through. What a goddamn graveyard those early pages are. Mention thirst, get blasted.
Sad situation. Inexcusable behavior.
Sad situation. Inexcusable behavior.
freenudemacusers
Member
nobody wants to explore that because it really doesn't matter. a non-creepy-weirdo woudn't offer to lick a girl's pussy in the context of talking about work. Well, at least I wouldn't. normal people, or at least those I would quantify as normal, when hearing about an individual's personal problems (such as divorce) would offer sympathy. but maybe he watched the wedding crashers too many times and didn't get the joke.
I mean, we are talking about a dude who thinks it's normal to look up girls on facebook randomly and send them text messages out of the blue with things like 'oh you're the kind of girl who puts her number on facebook' with the goal of being creepy to show women that creeps exist on the internet. and the woman sitting across from him said it was creepy, but he obviously keeps on truckin. reminds me of that david cross 'fuck on a pile of trash' bit.
jim-jam bongs
Member
Since apparently Sexual Harassment Panda isn't going to be dropping in to give a reeducation session, I feel it necessary to remind some of you that unwanted sexual advances involving lewd descriptions of sex acts are always massively out of line when the person making them holds any position of power over their target. That power can be explicit, such as a manager telling a subordinate that they'd like them to show off more skin around the office; or implicit, such as a journalist describing their skill at cunnilingus to a developer who is required by their employer to behave in a polite way towards the press at all times.
It's very easy to say "she should have been more forceful in her rejection", but she did not feel empowered to do that in this situation. This isn't like walking up to a woman in a bar and saying "there must be a mirror in your pants, cos I can see myself in them #yolo", she has nothing to lose by shooting you down because there is no fundamental power imbalance in that scenario. The woman involved in the exchange we're discussing was not afforded that luxury.
It's very easy to say "she should have been more forceful in her rejection", but she did not feel empowered to do that in this situation. This isn't like walking up to a woman in a bar and saying "there must be a mirror in your pants, cos I can see myself in them #yolo", she has nothing to lose by shooting you down because there is no fundamental power imbalance in that scenario. The woman involved in the exchange we're discussing was not afforded that luxury.
NoirVisage
Banned
its a point of discussion that few people seem to really want to admit or engage, and its not simply black and white, and ties in with what Jaffe was saying, rather than actual discuss it, its been this threads MO to vilify anyone who would mention it by calling them out of touch or losers when it comes to women, when in reality, some of them may be the most in touch with what this ugly world has become, some of you have a real innocent ideal of certain things.
I didn't know that to be the case, I guess i missed that part.
Not gonna spend a lot of time justifying my reporting here - as bizarre and disturbing as your reaction is - but I will say that I am quite glad we were able to publish this story, and I hope it helps dissuade people from acting this way in the future. It's hard to really understand this darker side of the industry's culture unless you've talked to women and heard the sickening private stories that they don't want to share with everyone, and I hope that as the months and years go on, more and more of this sort of stuff becomes public.
...huh?
I legitimately have no idea what the heck you are talking about? Who / What is total biscuit?
Cybit actually came from my two favorite comic book characters growing up - Cyclops and Gambit (and Gamop sounded worse than Cybit).
Agent Gibbs
Member
If this was an isolated insident it could be claimed he was coming onto her...exceptionally forwardly...like a drunken teenager....even then its letcherous
but if the guy's done this sort of shit before as has been said, then he only see's women as objects to use and abuse, and seriously needs to apologse and learn some god damn respect for women!
I suppose to play devil's advocate he could just be so stupdly socially awkward and is trying to emulate a dude bro style pick up and it failing multiple times
but if the guy's done this sort of shit before as has been said, then he only see's women as objects to use and abuse, and seriously needs to apologse and learn some god damn respect for women!
I suppose to play devil's advocate he could just be so stupdly socially awkward and is trying to emulate a dude bro style pick up and it failing multiple times
jim-jam bongs
Member
It's always the case, it doesn't need to be said explicitly. If you work for any company which relies on press coverage for exposure, you are required to be polite and friendly with journalists because you are always representing your employer when speaking with them.
Well said, GET HIM JETHRO
BronsonLee
Member
Dude probably needs a good slap on the back of the head!
NoirVisage
Banned
Are you saying there are no reasonable limits to that? especially in this situation?
And trust, I'm NOT blaming her for deflecting, in hindsight, I think she may have saved his life by not outright saying NO MEANS NO! The alternative would be so much worse for him, she did him a favor whether intentional or not.
freenudemacusers
Member
Wait are you saying I'm naive and innocent because I think someone who behaves this way is a creep?
Ugly world? What.
NoirVisage
Banned
Not for that reason, its because you and clearly others believe an incident like this is as isolated as everyone is acting.
sixteen-bit
Member
This is pretty gross.
NTIETS13A_Superiority
Banned
I say this is bs in this case. Taking all personal responsibility away is stupid. She had all the ways to get away from that conversation.
freenudemacusers
Member
Why do you assume I think this is isolated when I posted how my wife was sexually harassed at work. Why would it matter how many times behavior like this happens in professional contexts? It's always gross and creepy.
This, I concur, is a very good point. From the conversation it appeared that they knew each other better than just a journalist and an employee, but it's very well possible that she felt unable to retort out of fear of damaging her relationship with the company she's working for. Then it would transgress into harassment.
Featheredkitten
Banned
this is how i felt when i read it as well. She's trying not to damage her relationship in an industry where woman are judged more harshly than men, and he was playing "How foul can I be before she says stop?"
NoirVisage
Banned
why does the discussion stop there then?
Those are givens, but to call this a forum for a discussion would be an overstatement when it comes to threads like these. the laser focus is on a singular point no other discussion allowed.
which is a dang shame because IndieStatik ain't even that huge..its an amusing diversion, but no where near necessary to the big picture of..anything really. -__-
Featheredkitten
Banned
It's not that huge and yet we have people defending his actions because of the games he made. So: not huge doesn't equal not influential.
freenudemacusers
Member
Well I don't understand what purpose it serves other than to shift the conversation for no reason or to excuse his behavior in an indirect manner.
Is there really an issue with me flat out saying his behavior is gross and creepy?
NoirVisage
Banned
that's what I'm talking about, why does having a differing opinion on an aspect of this have to automatically mean that?
and no, there's no issue with it, by why must the discussion stop there, disagree with the points or call them ludicrous, but to shut them down and dogpile someone for having them i think is wrong.
I don't think ANYONE is defending his actions..ANYONE! dude is an island on this one. :O
jim-jam bongs
Member
NCIS GAF represent!
She tried to politely deflect his advances without bruising his ego, and he just kept upping the ante. I mean, I do feel for the guy if he has some emotional issues he needs to work through but I'd rather we remove that from the question of whether she behaved appropriately. He did the wrong thing, and if he's a stand up guy with some problems then hopefully this will be the wake up call he needs to get some help.
List them and we can have a conversation, saying "this is bullshit" isn't much of a refutation.
Featheredkitten
Banned
Sorry, I suppose i should have said, defending whether or not the world should know about his actions. His dignity...which he has a right to have even after he completely poo-ed on the concept?
freenudemacusers
Member
If you're not defending his actions, then what purpose would it serve? I don't think anyone is under the belief that such language is never appropriate in every context that could possibly exist in the universe. Just this one and a handful of others.
Although good luck with 'kiss your vagina' in the contexts and situations in which it is ok. Yikes.
NTIETS13A_Superiority
Banned
Do you think all personal responsibility should be dismissed? She can decide what is important to her. I do not see her as a big victim here. I just see one big douche and woman who after awhile decided to call his bs out.
She could have ignored him after first idiotic post and done exact the same shameing that we have here. No enduring of long shitty conversation.
But this is all beside the point anyway. I agree in guy being douche, I agree in this callout, I agree in she doing nothing wrong, but I just do not agree her being victim of something terrible here.Just victim of bad posts.
Anyway I should stop as I already posted "i am wasting yours and mine time". Chiao.
NoirVisage
Banned
I see, wow..well I think anyone with sense can agree that people should know, even if the person being harassed may not have wanted this to come out..this is one of those things I think the world should know to dissect and discuss, heck, his mama should know so she can pop him upside the head about it.
discussion. How does something like this happen , how many times could it have happened before? Some people like trying to see beyond the headline, in my mind there's more to this story, but in the end i guess that doesn't matter at all to some people.
Featheredkitten
Banned
I can think of exactly one situation where i'd be okay with someone saying "kiss your vagina" to me, and that would be talking to my SO....at which point i'd make fun of him for such a damned awkward phrase.
Feel bad for her. That's horrible. No one should have have to have that happen to them. Sounds like this guy is a repeat offender for this kind of behavior. Hopefully she will be able to get over it/not feel like she can't be who she is because of this asshole.
And drunk/depressed/whatever, dude needs to take some courses on how to treat people.
And drunk/depressed/whatever, dude needs to take some courses on how to treat people.
Agent Gibbs
Member
settle down and get back
NoirVisage
Banned
Zen_Arcade
Banned
The point is that someone shouldn't be in the position to have to choose between being sexually harassed and being able to do her job well in the first place. I swear I've seen you post some of the dumbest shit I've ever seen on this site, and that's saying a lot.
Novan Leon
Banned
People behaving badly... on the internet? Welcome to internet anonymity without the anonymity.
But yes, disgusting (albeit very human) behavior. Nothing unexpected but it should certainly carry punitive consequences. Very unprofessional.
But yes, disgusting (albeit very human) behavior. Nothing unexpected but it should certainly carry punitive consequences. Very unprofessional.
Byakuya769
Member
So offering to kiss a colleague's vagina isn't a good way to start a flirtatious conversation?? Women are so complicated.
Why do you feel the victim is responsible for his unwanted advances?
Yes, you don't talk to anyone like that at all unless you know 100% it's okay. and if you're not a lobotomy patient, you'd know not to blame the victim for something they didn't start or escalate.
Also, it's nice to let assholes keep talking like idiots so they can hang themselves with that rope. or does that seem unfair to you
Yeah I'm not understanding this either. David Jaffe seriously messed up with the execution, but I don't think there is anything wrong with saying she should've walked away or standing up for herself and saying no to him before needing to resort to what she (maybe?*)did. I don't think it's victim blaming; far from it. No one is mocking or snubbing her for what she did (or lack thereof).
I agree with you except for the bolded part. If she didn't want this to come out then I think her wishes should be respected.
"To hell with what you want; I'll be a good person and show everyone what's going on here!" really doesn't make that person any better than the one harassing the victim.
I've never heard a human describe to another human how many nerves are in the clitoris as a way to flirt with them.
freenudemacusers
Member
Actually a lot of women here have posted why this happens, and to take jaffe's and others insistence of 'well why didn't she speak up' also explains why this happens, too.
See beyond the headline? Nobody is talking about the headline, we are talking about a dude who based on his behavior past and present is creepy.
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