IndieStatik Founder apologizes for "inappropriate" comments to female game dev

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I don't think you're replying to what you think you're replying to, but yeah, its a long one,
anything that brings out the knights and the NOMAAM crowd is an easy 40pager.
well i guess i completely do not understand valnen's point about 'well sometimes people like being talked to in a rough/dirty manner'. can you tell me? cuz i don't get it. i mean, this is a page 14 post you quoted.
 
Moved from the bottom of the previous page -

To the question of what should be done about Josh:

He should be shamed, of course. His actions were shameful and now that they're public part of the reaction will be to have shame.

Should he be ostracized from Video Games(tm) for ever?

Absolutely not.

He could, given the proclivity of humans to forgive other humans, use this as a real turning point in his life. Make sure he really understands why what he said was wrong and how he can go about preventing stuff like this from happening in the future. It's a pretty simple road to redemption.

Step 1: Apologize (which he's done... in a ham-fisted way)

Step 2: Retreat from public life for a bit to educate yourself on what you did, why it was wrong, and what you can do to stop it from happening in the future.

Step 3: Emerge from your douchey cocoon and engage with people about the issue in a professional and reasonable way. Spread your newly gained knowledge to other people in the industry and promote a generally healthy and happy work environment for all people of all gender and race and nationality and religion.

The thing is, it's up to Josh now to change how we view him.

We aren't going to just sleep on it, wake up, and say 'Okay we've shamed him enough lets forgive him without any reason'.
 
Kind of crazy seeing something like this laid out. Really sort of reminds me that people who are put together enough to make their own company can still be this utterly clueless. I can only imagine how mortifying this all is for all people involved. Let this be a lesson, if you're the type of person who doesn't immediately see the "stop flirting with me" signs in that conversation, it would really do you good to try and suss them out.
 
well i guess i completely do not understand valnen's point about 'well sometimes people like being talked to in a rough/dirty manner'. can you tell me? cuz i don't get it. i mean, this is a page 14 post you quoted.

I totally forgot I quoted him, apologies, I was agreeing with the fact that blunt sexual advances happen in real life, but regardless of what direction he was going with that, no one wants to explore that, just the black and white fact that him sexually harassing her was dead wrong.

Kind of crazy seeing something like this laid out. Really sort of reminds me that people who are put together enough to make their own company can still be this utterly clueless. I can only imagine how mortifying this all is for all people involved. Let this be a lesson, if you're the type of person who doesn't immediately see the "stop flirting with me" signs in that conversation, it would really do you good to try and suss them out.

Someone brought up autism before (in regards to David Jaffe) that's not far of the mark for some with varying degrees of that, sussing that person out is probably impossible for them, as it wouldn't be for someone who is more adjusted.
 
because no one would see it?

Just a guess really.

I got that. I was being an asshole because he was posting a big post again from the previous page. Do we need to bump our own posts within threads?

Edit: But I see it has actually been moved, not copied, so my bad!
 
I tried to catch up to this thread, but only made it halfway through. What a goddamn graveyard those early pages are. Mention thirst, get blasted.

Sad situation. Inexcusable behavior.
 
I totally forgot I quoted him, apologies, I was agreeing with the fact that blunt sexual advances happen in real life, but regardless of what direction he was going with that, no one wants to explore that, just the black and white fact that him sexually harassing her was dead wrong.
nobody wants to explore that because it really doesn't matter. a non-creepy-weirdo woudn't offer to lick a girl's pussy in the context of talking about work. Well, at least I wouldn't. normal people, or at least those I would quantify as normal, when hearing about an individual's personal problems (such as divorce) would offer sympathy. but maybe he watched the wedding crashers too many times and didn't get the joke.

I mean, we are talking about a dude who thinks it's normal to look up girls on facebook randomly and send them text messages out of the blue with things like 'oh you're the kind of girl who puts her number on facebook' with the goal of being creepy to show women that creeps exist on the internet. and the woman sitting across from him said it was creepy, but he obviously keeps on truckin. reminds me of that david cross 'fuck on a pile of trash' bit.
 
Since apparently Sexual Harassment Panda isn't going to be dropping in to give a reeducation session, I feel it necessary to remind some of you that unwanted sexual advances involving lewd descriptions of sex acts are always massively out of line when the person making them holds any position of power over their target. That power can be explicit, such as a manager telling a subordinate that they'd like them to show off more skin around the office; or implicit, such as a journalist describing their skill at cunnilingus to a developer who is required by their employer to behave in a polite way towards the press at all times.

It's very easy to say "she should have been more forceful in her rejection", but she did not feel empowered to do that in this situation. This isn't like walking up to a woman in a bar and saying "there must be a mirror in your pants, cos I can see myself in them #yolo", she has nothing to lose by shooting you down because there is no fundamental power imbalance in that scenario. The woman involved in the exchange we're discussing was not afforded that luxury.
 
nobody wants to explore that because it really doesn't matter. a non-creepy-weirdo woudn't offer to lick a girl's pussy in the context of talking about work. Well, at least I wouldn't. normal people, or at least those I would quantify as normal, when hearing about an individual's personal problems (such as divorce) would offer sympathy. but maybe he watched the wedding crashers too many times and didn't get the joke.

I mean, we are talking about a dude who thinks it's normal to look up girls on facebook randomly and send them text messages out of the blue with things like 'oh you're the kind of girl who puts her number on facebook' with the goal of being creepy to show women that creeps exist on the internet. and the woman sitting across from him said it was creepy, but he obviously keeps on truckin. reminds me of that david cross 'fuck on a pile of trash' bit.

its a point of discussion that few people seem to really want to admit or engage, and its not simply black and white, and ties in with what Jaffe was saying, rather than actual discuss it, its been this threads MO to vilify anyone who would mention it by calling them out of touch or losers when it comes to women, when in reality, some of them may be the most in touch with what this ugly world has become, some of you have a real innocent ideal of certain things.

Since apparently Sexual Harassment Panda isn't going to be dropping in to give a reeducation session, I feel it necessary to remind some of you that unwanted sexual advances involving lewd descriptions of sex acts are always massively out of line when the person making them holds any position of power over their target. That power can be explicit, such as a manager telling a subordinate that they'd like them to show off more skin around the office; or implicit, such as a journalist describing their skill at cunnilingus to a developer who is required by their employer to behave in a polite way towards the press at all times.

It's very easy to say "she should have been more forceful in her rejection", but she did not feel empowered to do that in this situation. This isn't like walking up to a woman in a bar and saying "there must be a mirror in your pants, cos I can see myself in them #yolo", she has nothing to lose by shooting you down because there is no fundamental power imbalance in that scenario. The woman involved in the exchange we're discussing was not afforded that luxury.

I didn't know that to be the case, I guess i missed that part.
 
Increasingly during background checks companies are researching people online. It's quite likely this will follow him and have negative fallout on his life for quite some time.

Honestly, I think Jason Schrier is an awful person for going after this guy. No matter how righteous he thinks his cause, he's using his position on a popular website to be a bully, and it's not the first time. No one deserves this for some lewd behavior. It really irritates me to see these type of e-lynchings. One of these days he'll go after the wrong person and try to break their ricebowl for clicks, and those clicks will have a very steep price.

Fuck the whole lot. Gaming journalism would be better off without most of these journalists.
Not gonna spend a lot of time justifying my reporting here - as bizarre and disturbing as your reaction is - but I will say that I am quite glad we were able to publish this story, and I hope it helps dissuade people from acting this way in the future. It's hard to really understand this darker side of the industry's culture unless you've talked to women and heard the sickening private stories that they don't want to share with everyone, and I hope that as the months and years go on, more and more of this sort of stuff becomes public.
 
Yes, yes you do. Cybit/Total Biscuit has to stimulate those 14 extra nerve endings of yours until you shiver.

...huh?

I legitimately have no idea what the heck you are talking about? Who / What is total biscuit?

Cybit actually came from my two favorite comic book characters growing up - Cyclops and Gambit (and Gamop sounded worse than Cybit).
 
If this was an isolated insident it could be claimed he was coming onto her...exceptionally forwardly...like a drunken teenager....even then its letcherous

but if the guy's done this sort of shit before as has been said, then he only see's women as objects to use and abuse, and seriously needs to apologse and learn some god damn respect for women!

I suppose to play devil's advocate he could just be so stupdly socially awkward and is trying to emulate a dude bro style pick up and it failing multiple times
 
I didn't know that to be the case, I guess i missed that part.

It's always the case, it doesn't need to be said explicitly. If you work for any company which relies on press coverage for exposure, you are required to be polite and friendly with journalists because you are always representing your employer when speaking with them.

If this was an isolated insident it could be claimed he was coming onto her...exceptionally forwardly...like a drunken teenager....even then its letcherous

but if the guy's done this sort of shit before as has been said, then he only see's women as objects to use and abuse, and seriously needs to apologse and learn some god damn respect for women!

Well said, GET HIM JETHRO
 
It's always the case, it doesn't need to be said explicitly. If you work for any company which relies on press coverage for exposure, you are required to be polite and friendly with journalists because you are always representing your employer when speaking with them.

Are you saying there are no reasonable limits to that? especially in this situation?
And trust, I'm NOT blaming her for deflecting, in hindsight, I think she may have saved his life by not outright saying NO MEANS NO! The alternative would be so much worse for him, she did him a favor whether intentional or not.
 
its a point of discussion that few people seem to really want to admit or engage, and its not simply black and white, and ties in with what Jaffe was saying, rather than actual discuss it, its been this threads MO to vilify anyone who would mention it by calling them out of touch or losers when it comes to women, when in reality, some of them may be the most in touch with what this ugly world has become, some of you have a real innocent ideal of certain things.



I didn't know that to be the case, I guess i missed that part.
Wait are you saying I'm naive and innocent because I think someone who behaves this way is a creep?

Ugly world? What.
 
It's very easy to say "she should have been more forceful in her rejection", but she did not feel empowered to do that in this situation. This isn't like walking up to a woman in a bar and saying "there must be a mirror in your pants, cos I can see myself in them #yolo", she has nothing to lose by shooting you down because there is no fundamental power imbalance in that scenario. The woman involved in the exchange we're discussing was not afforded that luxury.

I say this is bs in this case. Taking all personal responsibility away is stupid. She had all the ways to get away from that conversation.
 
Not for that reason, its because you and clearly others believe an incident like this is as isolated as everyone is acting.
Why do you assume I think this is isolated when I posted how my wife was sexually harassed at work. Why would it matter how many times behavior like this happens in professional contexts? It's always gross and creepy.
 
such as a journalist describing their skill at cunnilingus to a developer who is required by their employer to behave in a polite way towards the press at all times.
This, I concur, is a very good point. From the conversation it appeared that they knew each other better than just a journalist and an employee, but it's very well possible that she felt unable to retort out of fear of damaging her relationship with the company she's working for. Then it would transgress into harassment.
 
This, I concur, is a very good point. From the conversation it appeared that they knew each other better than just a journalist and an employee, but it's very well possible that she felt unable to retort out of fear of damaging her relationship with the company she's working for. Then it would transgress into harassment.

this is how i felt when i read it as well. She's trying not to damage her relationship in an industry where woman are judged more harshly than men, and he was playing "How foul can I be before she says stop?"
 
Why do you assume I think this is isolated when I posted how my wife was sexually harassed at work. Why would it matter how many times behavior like this happens in professional contexts? It's always gross and creepy.

why does the discussion stop there then?
Those are givens, but to call this a forum for a discussion would be an overstatement when it comes to threads like these. the laser focus is on a singular point no other discussion allowed.


this is how i felt when i read it as well. She's trying not to damage her relationship in an industry where woman are judged more harshly than men, and he was playing "How foul can I be before she says stop?"
which is a dang shame because IndieStatik ain't even that huge..its an amusing diversion, but no where near necessary to the big picture of..anything really. -__-
 
why does the discussion stop there then?
Those are givens, but to call this a forum for a discussion would be an overstatement when it comes to threads like these. the laser focus is on a singular point no other discussion allowed.
Well I don't understand what purpose it serves other than to shift the conversation for no reason or to excuse his behavior in an indirect manner.


Is there really an issue with me flat out saying his behavior is gross and creepy?
 
Well I don't understand what purpose it serves other than to shift the conversation for no reason or to excuse his behavior in an indirect manner.


Is there really an issue with me flat out saying his behavior is gross and creepy?

that's what I'm talking about, why does having a differing opinion on an aspect of this have to automatically mean that?
and no, there's no issue with it, by why must the discussion stop there, disagree with the points or call them ludicrous, but to shut them down and dogpile someone for having them i think is wrong.

It's not that huge and yet we have people defending his actions because of the games he made. So: not huge doesn't equal not influential.

I don't think ANYONE is defending his actions..ANYONE! dude is an island on this one. :O
 
Dude probably needs a good slap on the back of the head!

NCIS GAF represent!

Are you saying there are no reasonable limits to that? especially in this situation?
And trust, I'm NOT blaming her for deflecting, in hindsight, I think she may have saved his life by not outright saying NO MEANS NO! The alternative would be so much worse for him, she did him a favor whether intentional or not.

She tried to politely deflect his advances without bruising his ego, and he just kept upping the ante. I mean, I do feel for the guy if he has some emotional issues he needs to work through but I'd rather we remove that from the question of whether she behaved appropriately. He did the wrong thing, and if he's a stand up guy with some problems then hopefully this will be the wake up call he needs to get some help.

I say this is bs in this case. Taking all personal responsibility away is stupid. She had all the ways to get away from that conversation.

List them and we can have a conversation, saying "this is bullshit" isn't much of a refutation.
 
that's what I'm talking about, why does having a differing opinion on an aspect of this have to automatically mean that?



I don't think ANYONE is defending his actions..ANYONE! dude is an island on this one. :O

Sorry, I suppose i should have said, defending whether or not the world should know about his actions. His dignity...which he has a right to have even after he completely poo-ed on the concept?
 
that's what I'm talking about, why does having a differing opinion on an aspect of this have to automatically mean that?
and no, there's no issue with it, by why must the discussion stop there, disagree with the points or call them ludicrous, but to shut them down and dogpile someone for having them i think is wrong.



I don't think ANYONE is defending his actions..ANYONE! dude is an island on this one. :O
If you're not defending his actions, then what purpose would it serve? I don't think anyone is under the belief that such language is never appropriate in every context that could possibly exist in the universe. Just this one and a handful of others.

Although good luck with 'kiss your vagina' in the contexts and situations in which it is ok. Yikes.
 
ffs, isn't there an age restriction for posting on this site

Do you think all personal responsibility should be dismissed? She can decide what is important to her. I do not see her as a big victim here. I just see one big douche and woman who after awhile decided to call his bs out.

List them and we can have a conversation, saying "this is bullshit" isn't much of a refutation.

She could have ignored him after first idiotic post and done exact the same shameing that we have here. No enduring of long shitty conversation.
But this is all beside the point anyway. I agree in guy being douche, I agree in this callout, I agree in she doing nothing wrong, but I just do not agree her being victim of something terrible here.Just victim of bad posts.
Anyway I should stop as I already posted "i am wasting yours and mine time". Chiao.
 
Sorry, I suppose i should have said, defending whether or not the world should know about his actions. His dignity...which he to have even after he completely poo-ed on the concept?

I see, wow..well I think anyone with sense can agree that people should know, even if the person being harassed may not have wanted this to come out..this is one of those things I think the world should know to dissect and discuss, heck, his mama should know so she can pop him upside the head about it.

If you're not defending his actions, then what purpose would it serve? I don't think anyone is under the belief that such language is never appropriate in every context that could possibly exist in the universe. Just this one and a handful of others.

Although good luck with 'kiss your vagina' in the contexts and situations in which it is ok. Yikes.

discussion. How does something like this happen , how many times could it have happened before? Some people like trying to see beyond the headline, in my mind there's more to this story, but in the end i guess that doesn't matter at all to some people.
 
Feel bad for her. That's horrible. No one should have have to have that happen to them. Sounds like this guy is a repeat offender for this kind of behavior. Hopefully she will be able to get over it/not feel like she can't be who she is because of this asshole.
And drunk/depressed/whatever, dude needs to take some courses on how to treat people.
 
Well said, GET HIM JETHRO
Dude probably needs a good slap on the back of the head!
NCIS GAF represent!

dinozzo-head-slap.gif


settle down and get back to work people! on topic!
 
Do you think all personal responsibility should be dismissed? She can decide what is important to her. I do not see her as a big victim here. I just see one big douche and woman who after awhile decided to call his bs out.
The point is that someone shouldn't be in the position to have to choose between being sexually harassed and being able to do her job well in the first place. I swear I've seen you post some of the dumbest shit I've ever seen on this site, and that's saying a lot.
 
People behaving badly... on the internet? Welcome to internet anonymity without the anonymity.

But yes, disgusting (albeit very human) behavior. Nothing unexpected but it should certainly carry punitive consequences. Very unprofessional.
 
Do you think all personal responsibility should be dismissed? She can decide what is important to her. I do not see her as a big victim here. I just see one big douche and woman who after awhile decided to call his bs out.



Yes, you don't talk to anyone like that at all unless you know 100% it's okay. and if you're not a lobotomy patient, you'd know not to blame the victim for something they didn't start or escalate.

Also, it's nice to let assholes keep talking like idiots so they can hang themselves with that rope. or does that seem unfair to you
 
Do you think all personal responsibility should be dismissed? She can decide what is important to her. I do not see her as a big victim here. I just see one big douche and woman who after awhile decided to call his bs out.

Yeah I'm not understanding this either. David Jaffe seriously messed up with the execution, but I don't think there is anything wrong with saying she should've walked away or standing up for herself and saying no to him before needing to resort to what she (maybe?*)did. I don't think it's victim blaming; far from it. No one is mocking or snubbing her for what she did (or lack thereof).

I see, wow..well I think anyone with sense can agree that people should know, even if the person being harassed may not have wanted this to come out..this is one of those things I think the world should know to dissect and discuss, heck, his mama should know so she can pop him upside the head about it.

I agree with you except for the bolded part. If she didn't want this to come out then I think her wishes should be respected.

"To hell with what you want; I'll be a good person and show everyone what's going on here!" really doesn't make that person any better than the one harassing the victim.
 
People behaving badly... on the internet? Welcome to internet anonymity without the anonymity.

But yes, disgusting (albeit very human) behavior. Nothing unexpected but it should certainly have punitive consequences nonetheless.

I've never heard a human describe to another human how many nerves are in the clitoris as a way to flirt with them.
 
discussion. How does something like this happen , how many times could it have happened before? Some people like trying to see beyond the headline, in my mind there's more to this story, but in the end i guess that doesn't matter at all to some people.
Actually a lot of women here have posted why this happens, and to take jaffe's and others insistence of 'well why didn't she speak up' also explains why this happens, too.

See beyond the headline? Nobody is talking about the headline, we are talking about a dude who based on his behavior past and present is creepy.
 
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