Support NeoGAF

[winjer]

Level1Tech managed to pull a ton of data, both from game developers and from servers, to try to paint a picture of the issues with 13 and 14th gen CPUs from Intel.

TLDR:
Using game crash telemetry, they found Intel 13 and 14th gen CPUs have much greater crash rates than any other CPUs.
AMD has much lower crash rates
12th Gen CPUs has similar crash rates to AMD CPUs (keep in mind that some 13th Gen CPUs are just rebranded 12th Gen CPUs)
A lot ofc rashes seem, to be IO related. But sometimes there are crashes being reported as issues with the GPU, though it's the CPU that is causing the poroblem.
On the server side, even when using W680 motherboards, which use conservative power limits, these crashes still occur at much higher rate with 13 and 14th gen CPUs
Updating bios mitigates crash rates but does not fix this completely
Disabling e-cores helps a bit, Setting the memory to 4800 Mbps does the most to reduce crashes
Server providers have already replaced many 13 and 14th gen Intel CPUs. They are now charging $1000 extra, for special support, for every new contract that uses these CPUs. But not for AMD nor 12th Gen CPUs.

 

[BennyBlanco]

FWIW i have had 0 issues with my 13700k

 

[DenchDeckard]

I have a 13900KS and its been working fine, but unless I hear that the next intel chips are mind blowingly good - My next PC will be my first ever personal AMD machine. My daughter has a 7800X3D and it's a beast.

 

[Guilty_AI]

FWIW i have had 0 issues with my 13700k

i assume this is mainly a problem with servers and other types of heavy lifting, rather than normal every day use.

 

[OverHeat]

Leonidas where is your god now?

 

[SantaC]

Intel is shit these days. AMD cpus are superior

 

[KuraiShidosha]

Both CPU makers suck in their own ways. My 7950x3D idles at 40-50w with EXPO enabled. Since my PC is used for streaming and browsing a lot this was a nasty surprise coming from Intel. Also burned up two chips from the EXPO SoC bug last year. It hasn't been sunshine and rainbows over here. At the same time, I'm disgusted with what Intel is doing so they're no better an option today. The choices are not easy to make like they were a decade ago.

 

[Magic Carpet]

FWIW i have had 0 issues with my 13700k

13700F checking in. Zero issues.
I credit my basic no frills motherboard for being stable.

 

[kikii]

FWIW i have had 0 issues with my 13700k

same here

 

[Facism]

I have also had 0 issues with intel, but that's because I have an AMD processor.

 

[Celcius]

I’m glad I skipped that whole platform. I plan to keep my 10700k until the new platform comes out this fall.

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

i assume this is mainly a problem with servers and other types of heavy lifting, rather than normal every day use.

Look at the first sentence of the TL;DR

FWIW i have had 0 issues with my 13700k

13700F checking in. Zero issues.
I credit my basic no frills motherboard for being stable.

Most people are going to be fine. If this affected every 13/14 owner then there would’ve been a major shitstorm long ago

But there’s still SOMETHING seriously wrong, and it goes beyond just the BIOS/power settings. Some impressive investigative journalism from L1

 

[ChuckeRearmed]

Intel is like Boeing of planes. AMD is doing better in CPU than in GPU. I do wonder what ARM will bring to the table. Should make everything more interesting.

 

[SportsFan581]

Hopefully they find some solution to this with a bios or firmware correction. I was anticipating grabbing a 13/14 series i7 on down the line when they've reached maximum cheapness (often takes a few years on Intel).

 

[simpatico]

Are there reports of crashing at the Intel Suggested Power Limits and not the spicy meatball mobo mfg limits?

 

[winjer]

Are there reports of crashing at the Intel Suggested Power Limits and not the spicy meatball mobo mfg limits?

Yes, but it could be that those CPUs had already degraded.
Such as this 14900K that one user reported on the guru3d forums:

My buddy 14900K has probably degraded too much, PUBG went from crashing and now the battleeye anti cheat doesn't run anymore.

Too bad my buddy delidded his 14900K, so returning the chip is not an option anymore

 

[simpatico]

Yes, but it could be that those CPUs had already degraded.
Such as this 14900K that one user reported on the guru3d forums:

I mean changing the default settings on the motherboard. Lowering them down to what Intel actually advises they be at. I watched a bunch of videos explaining how much higher mobo makers are setting these power limits. A bit of an unregulated arms race is cooking CPUs. It’s really on the customer to fix. They bought those boards without understanding what they do.

 

[winjer]

I mean changing the default settings on the motherboard. Lowering them down to what Intel actually advises they be at. I watched a bunch of videos explaining how much higher mobo makers are setting these power limits. A bit of an unregulated arms race is cooking CPUs. It’s really on the customer to fix. They bought those boards without understanding what they do.

The problem is that even the new Intel specs are not very clear. So the Intel baseline profile varies from one board manufacturer to another.

Quoting buildzoid:

Gotta love how the "intel baseline" isn't the same across motherboard vendors. Almost like the intel baseline isn't provided by intel but cooked up by each vendor on their own.Also it's worth noting that SVID set to intel fail safe runs more Vcore than the ASUS default settings for any scenario that doesn't hit the power limit. Gigabyte's intel baseline profile does the same. Most gigabyte boards use AC_LL and DC_LL of less than 1.1mOhms on default but with the baseline profile the AC and DC_LL get set to 1.7mOhm which raise the core voltage for any workload that doesn't hit power limits.

 

[joeygreco1985]

I have a 13700k running stock and I got my first BSOD after 1.5 years last week. I googled the error code and the common theme was it might have been related to this issue. My motherboard vendor ASUS posted a BIOS update in May thats supposed to fix things so I installed it, haven't had any crashes since then, but its only been a week so we'll see.

 

[OverHeat]

Both CPU makers suck in their own ways. My 7950x3D idles at 40-50w with EXPO enabled. Since my PC is used for streaming and browsing a lot this was a nasty surprise coming from Intel. Also burned up two chips from the EXPO SoC bug last year. It hasn't been sunshine and rainbows over here. At the same time, I'm disgusted with what Intel is doing so they're no better an option today. The choices are not easy to make like they were a decade ago.

That sucks everything as been awesome with my 7950x3D for me.

 

[winjer]

Intel Denies RMA Requests For 14th & 13th Gen Desktop CPUs Plagued With Instability Issues, System Providers Switch To AMD Ryzen

Intel's 14th and 13th Gen CPU instability issues have tarnished the company's reputation, as they fail to address concerns and RMA requests.

wccftech.com

After 3 Faulty CPUs & 2 RMAs, Intel Refuses to Refund a Crashing 13900K, Less than a Month Old | Hardware Times

Over the last few months, we’ve been in touch with Intel’s RMA team, trying to get our Core i9-13900KF and Core i7-14700KF (successfully) replaced. The latter worked out in the first go, but the former has been a headache. The first unit suffered from a PCIe fault that caused the PC to crash...

hardwaretimes.com

 

[cinnamonandgravy]

My 7950x3D idles at 40-50w with EXPO enabled.

thats about how much my stock 12700k uses in most games.

 

[DirtyBast8rd]

It's because people don't update their bios and settings (which should have been correct from the start mind you) and may be unaware of the fix. Never had any crashes with my Asus motherboard and 13900K but applied the necessary settings by hand and updated the bios, only because I became aware of a potential problem.

 

[simpatico]

The problem is that even the new Intel specs are not very clear. So the Intel baseline profile varies from one board manufacturer to another.

Quoting buildzoid:

Yuck. I hadn’t heard they vary from board to board. My investigating was early on and at that time lowering to Intel default fixed voltages all the crashing.

CPU market is a mess right now. I ended up buying the 7800x3D, and I think a lot of people are exaggerating how great it is. Sure it’s fast, but the temps are nuts and it doesn’t take much to get the fans to audibly spin up. Sandy Bridge to the 9000k series was such an elegant line of chips. Lower power, super stable, great overclockers. And now we just get cheap hot rodded shit. Power draw and heat just going crazy.

 

[YeulEmeralda]

Leonidas where is your god now?

 

[Zathalus]

Luckily my 13900k has had no issues so far but that is merely my anecdotal experience. Not looking good for Intel that they still can’t fix this issue.

 

[winjer]

CPU market is a mess right now. I ended up buying the 7800x3D, and I think a lot of people are exaggerating how great it is. Sure it’s fast, but the temps are nuts and it doesn’t take much to get the fans to audibly spin up. Sandy Bridge to the 9000k series was such an elegant line of chips. Lower power, super stable, great overclockers. And now we just get cheap hot rodded shit. Power draw and heat just going crazy.

Here are a few tips that apply to Intel and AMD boards.
Install the latest chipset drivers, because these include the newest power profiles.
Here are the ones for AMD: https://www.amd.com/en/resources/support-articles/release-notes/RN-RYZEN-CHIPSET-6-05-28-016.html

Go to the UEFI and see if the motherbo0ard has the fan control set to PWM. This is a more precise way to control fans, but motherboards can't detect if a fan supports this tech or not, so sometimes, they just disable it by default.
In the UEFI you will also find that there are several fan profiles, such as slow, normal, aggressive. Pick the one that suits you.
On AMD there is an option that makes undervolting very easy. It's called Curve Optimizer. Set it no negative, then set a value of 10 or 20 or 30 and test if your CPU can take it.
Check that Global C-states are enabled. And that Power supply Idle control is set to Low current idle.

Also, don't change vdroop control to one that gives more voltage. CPUs need to have vdroop.

 

[Codeblew]

Yuck. I hadn’t heard they vary from board to board. My investigating was early on and at that time lowering to Intel default fixed voltages all the crashing.

CPU market is a mess right now. I ended up buying the 7800x3D, and I think a lot of people are exaggerating how great it is. Sure it’s fast, but the temps are nuts and it doesn’t take much to get the fans to audibly spin up. Sandy Bridge to the 9000k series was such an elegant line of chips. Lower power, super stable, great overclockers. And now we just get cheap hot rodded shit. Power draw and heat just going crazy.

I don't know if it is the same with the 7800x3D or not but I was able to undervolt my 7700 -30 on all cores. It runs dead silent 99% of the time and only lost about 1% performance in cinebench and the heaven benchmarks.

 

[simpatico]

I don't know if it is the same with the 7800x3D or not but I was able to undervolt my 7700 -30 on all cores. It runs dead silent 99% of the time and only lost about 1% performance in cinebench and the heaven benchmarks.

Did you follow a guide? My AMD overclocking software has completely different options than everything I've seen in the guides. Since it's not about performance, I just got tired of digging and left it alone.

 

[simpatico]

Here are a few tips that apply to Intel and AMD boards.
Install the latest chipset drivers, because these include the newest power profiles.
Here are the ones for AMD: https://www.amd.com/en/resources/support-articles/release-notes/RN-RYZEN-CHIPSET-6-05-28-016.html

Go to the UEFI and see if the motherbo0ard has the fan control set to PWM. This is a more precise way to control fans, but motherboards can't detect if a fan supports this tech or not, so sometimes, they just disable it by default.
In the UEFI you will also find that there are several fan profiles, such as slow, normal, aggressive. Pick the one that suits you.
On AMD there is an option that makes undervolting very easy. It's called Curve Optimizer. Set it no negative, then set a value of 10 or 20 or 30 and test if your CPU can take it.
Check that Global C-states are enabled. And that Power supply Idle control is set to Low current idle.

Also, don't change vdroop control to one that gives more voltage. CPUs need to have vdroop.

Yeah, my specific mobo has this weird thing where the GPU output loads slowly, so to reach the bios I have to connect my HDMI cable to the mobo video output, F1 from there. Minor annoyance considering you maybe need the bios once per year. I'll check it out. Maybe it is the PWM. Perf is good, hitting exactly what benchmarks say I should. I just hear fans spin up during steam downloads or even on poorly coded websites. My old 7700k, I don't think I ever heard the fans. Even under full load while playing CPU intensive games.

 

[Ivory Samoan]

My 14700 has been butter smooth coming on 9 months now.

 

[Codeblew]

Did you follow a guide? My AMD overclocking software has completely different options than everything I've seen in the guides. Since it's not about performance, I just got tired of digging and left it alone.

I watched some youtube videos on undervolting and then found the correct settings in my BIOS. They should be named the same on most AM5 motherboards. Every CPU isn't guaranteed to go to -30 so you have to try in steps and make sure your computer still runs stable.

I just remembered. I also thermally throttled my CPU to 75C. By default, it is set to 95C if I remember correctly. That setting may have a bigger impact on your fans since the CPU will run a lot cooler with just one setting. That setting should be in your BIOS as well. On my Gigabyte B650 Aurus Elite MB, I think the setting is under Performance or Tuning.

 

[Celcius]

 

[winjer]

Yeah, my specific mobo has this weird thing where the GPU output loads slowly, so to reach the bios I have to connect my HDMI cable to the mobo video output, F1 from there. Minor annoyance considering you maybe need the bios once per year. I'll check it out. Maybe it is the PWM. Perf is good, hitting exactly what benchmarks say I should. I just hear fans spin up during steam downloads or even on poorly coded websites. My old 7700k, I don't think I ever heard the fans. Even under full load while playing CPU intensive games.

Intel and AMD CPUs have an integrated GPU. You might have the motherboard trying to figure out which one to use.
Next time you go to the uefi, disable the igp.

 

[SolidQ]

Oops

Intel is selling defective CPUs - Alderon Games

We have been encountering significant problems with Intel CPU stability. Despite all released microcode, BIOS, and firmware updates, the problem remains unresolved.

alderongames.com

 

[Codeblew]

Oops

Intel is selling defective CPUs - Alderon Games

We have been encountering significant problems with Intel CPU stability. Despite all released microcode, BIOS, and firmware updates, the problem remains unresolved.

alderongames.com

Damn. Not looking good for Intel right now. People are starting to pile on. No sympathy for Intel for releasing a shoddy product.

 

[manfestival]

13900k user here. Intel broke me so I decided to update my bios today since the crashes were driving me nuts. Primarily in UE5 titles. Tested it out with the biggest offenders after and I have had 1 crash since making the update so I am optimistic about the mitigation with this.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Oops

Intel is selling defective CPUs - Alderon Games

We have been encountering significant problems with Intel CPU stability. Despite all released microcode, BIOS, and firmware updates, the problem remains unresolved.

alderongames.com

Over the last 3–4 months, we have observed that CPUs initially working well deteriorate over time, eventually failing. The failure rate we have observed from our own testing is nearly 100%, indicating it's only a matter of time before affected CPUs fail.

Dang haven’t had crashes with my 14th gen i9 but this has me worried.

Mine is a laptop, does that matter?

edit: oh would it only be the 14900k? I think I went with the 14800 or whatever.

 

[manfestival]

Dang haven’t had crashes with my 14th gen i9 but this has me worried.

Mine is a laptop, does that matter?

edit: oh would it only be the 14900k? I think I went with the 14800 or whatever.

Your laptop one is just fine. This is the desktop CPUs

 

[nkarafo]

CPU market is a mess right now. I ended up buying the 7800x3D, and I think a lot of people are exaggerating how great it is. Sure it’s fast, but the temps are nuts and it doesn’t take much to get the fans to audibly spin up. Sandy Bridge to the 9000k series was such an elegant line of chips. Lower power, super stable, great overclockers. And now we just get cheap hot rodded shit. Power draw and heat just going crazy.

Yeah, i think it's because transistor technology has reached it's limits long ago.

I still have an i5 4670. It runs cool, it's stable, doesn't draw too much power and i'm milking it dry for 10 years now. I still play modern games with it, Elden Ring + it's DLC run fine at 40fps VRR.

The reason i haven't upgraded yet isn't the lack of money, i had 10 years to save. It's because i don't know what CPU to get that won't be hotter or less stable than my current one. I also hate the idea of "e-cores" the added complexity creates problems in some applications. And the power draw is a huge issue for me.

 

[SolidQ]

And the power draw is a huge issue for me

You can just w8 for 9800X3D

 

[Paulistano]

Both CPU makers suck in their own ways. My 7950x3D idles at 40-50w with EXPO enabled. Since my PC is used for streaming and browsing a lot this was a nasty surprise coming from Intel. Also burned up two chips from the EXPO SoC bug last year. It hasn't been sunshine and rainbows over here. At the same time, I'm disgusted with what Intel is doing so they're no better an option today. The choices are not easy to make like they were a decade ago.

Are you sure that something running in the background isn't using resources and waking up your processor cores? I remember that some monitoring software bring issues.

 

[Valonquar]

My i9-14900KF hasn't crashed once.

 

[simpatico]

Yeah, i think it's because transistor technology has reached it's limits long ago.

I still have an i5 4670. It runs cool, it's stable, doesn't draw too much power and i'm milking it dry for 10 years now. I still play modern games with it, Elden Ring + it's DLC run fine at 40fps VRR.

The reason i haven't upgraded yet isn't the lack of money, i had 10 years to save. It's because i don't know what CPU to get that won't be hotter or less stable than my current one. I also hate the idea of "e-cores" the added complexity creates problems in some applications. And the power draw is a huge issue for me.

I was in the same boat. I finally got a little more discouraged in the GPU market and decided to at least upgrade the CPU and memory. It took all of my 45fps games up to locked 60. 1080p with a GTX 1080. I bought it when it was the top of the line for about $500. Dat 400% inflation for "top of the line Nvidia GPU" is frustrating. It's not that I can't afford to upgrade, I'm just stubborn and still getting by. Shadow of the Erdtree looks fantastic. Considering how many game changing features get added/left out of new Nvidia lines, it's best to hold out as long as you possibly can I think. I'm content enough with my monitor and haven't experienced ray trancing enough to miss it. I was pulling 80fps in Ghost of Tsushima.

I looked long an hard at these Intel products and I'm higher on them then most of GAF. Also a little lower on the AMD stuff, despite now owning it. I don't think they'd be a terrible buy if you can get the right price and know going in that depending on luck you might have to go down in voltage from motherboard stock. There was a really good sale at Microcenter when I bought that made the 7800x3D significantly cheaper than the 14700k. If I was building mid range I'd consider the i5 over the AMD equiv. They seem to be the best part in the product line.

Intel and AMD CPUs have an integrated GPU. You might have the motherboard trying to figure out which one to use.
Next time you go to the uefi, disable the igp.

Apparently it's a thing with certain GPUs and this board. 10 series, so there's no hurry to fix it. Easy enough work around, just annoying enough to stop me from trying little fixes on whim.

 

[nkarafo]

I'm thinking of getting a 12400 because it's the last i5 CPU without e-cores. It also seems like it has a great performance/price ratio. And i think it won't be any more power hungry than my current 4670.

It's not a new CPU but compared to what i have it will be a big difference either way for a very low price. The 78003D is way too expensive for me.

 

[TransTrender]

That was pretty interesting.
Server chipsets which always ran the conservative power limits were still running in to this issue and seemingly degrading over time.

 

[LavitzSlambert]

I was in the same boat. I finally got a little more discouraged in the GPU market and decided to at least upgrade the CPU and memory. It took all of my 45fps games up to locked 60. 1080p with a GTX 1080. I bought it when it was the top of the line for about $500. Dat 400% inflation for "top of the line Nvidia GPU" is frustrating. It's not that I can't afford to upgrade, I'm just stubborn and still getting by. Shadow of the Erdtree looks fantastic. Considering how many game changing features get added/left out of new Nvidia lines, it's best to hold out as long as you possibly can I think. I'm content enough with my monitor and haven't experienced ray trancing enough to miss it. I was pulling 80fps in Ghost of Tsushima.

I looked long an hard at these Intel products and I'm higher on them then most of GAF. Also a little lower on the AMD stuff, despite now owning it. I don't think they'd be a terrible buy if you can get the right price and know going in that depending on luck you might have to go down in voltage from motherboard stock. There was a really good sale at Microcenter when I bought that made the 7800x3D significantly cheaper than the 14700k. If I was building mid range I'd consider the i5 over the AMD equiv. They seem to be the best part in the product line.


Apparently it's a thing with certain GPUs and this board. 10 series, so there's no hurry to fix it. Easy enough work around, just annoying enough to stop me from trying little fixes on whim.

The value just isn't there for new PC parts. I haven't been playing new games on PC, so my 4970 and 1070 has been fine for years and does what it needs to. Agreed 100% with nkarafo that all the newer CPU options just seem hotter or more complicated, and are just throwing cores at the problems or boosting clockspeed inefficiently while consuming magnitudes more power than before.

 

[simpatico]

The value just isn't there for new PC parts. I haven't been playing new games on PC, so my 4970 and 1070 has been fine for years and does what it needs to. Agreed 100% with nkarafo that all the newer CPU options just seem hotter or more complicated, and are just throwing cores at the problems or boosting clockspeed inefficiently while consuming magnitudes more power than before.

I remember the tjMax on CPUs being in the 65c range for the longest time. I wonder if anything changed that allows newer CPUs to run in the 80s or if they just said "YOLO gotta try something lol"

 

[LavitzSlambert]

I remember the tjMax on CPUs being in the 65c range for the longest time. I wonder if anything changed that allows newer CPUs to run in the 80s or if they just said "YOLO gotta try something lol"

The lifespan of this newer hardware is not going to be long lived. They don't care though, for AMD and Intel that's a feature, not a bug.

 

[lh032]

with hardware complexity and higher power consumption, PC hardware could be getting more unstable due to different setups by each user.
This is quite concerning since these hardware are not cheap.