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Is it time to accept Revenge of the Sith as "one of the good" SW films? SPOILERS
- Thread starter enigmatic_alex44
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Bonen no Max'd
Banned
Complaining that TFA was too much like ANH kind of misses the point of why people like it so much. The movie gives a bunch of new original characters mixed in with Han and they're (almost) universally liked. Finn, Rey, Poe, and BB-8 are all super likable and fun to hang around and they're the real standout difference between TFA and ANH. I mean, you can try to make them analogous to the main cast but they don't feel like them at all. Rey is kinda Luke because of her big destiny and Force power, but she's mostly focused on staying out of trouble than Luke's headlong rush into danger. Finn is kind of Han because his reluctance to get involved, but his awkward insecurity isn't the same as Han's confident arrogance at all. Poe is kind of Leia I guess. Kylo Ren is intentionally very much not like Vader at all.
And then you get to the prequels where literally every character is terrible. The Jedi are morons, Anakin is a psychopathic cringelord, Padme is uh, principled I guess? Obi-Wan is just kind of tired of doing this shit all the time. The plot might be more original (if you're into trade disputes and lulzworthy commentary on Bush) but there is absolutely nothing interesting about the people in the movie.
And then you get to the prequels where literally every character is terrible. The Jedi are morons, Anakin is a psychopathic cringelord, Padme is uh, principled I guess? Obi-Wan is just kind of tired of doing this shit all the time. The plot might be more original (if you're into trade disputes and lulzworthy commentary on Bush) but there is absolutely nothing interesting about the people in the movie.
George Oscar Bluth II
Banned
Actually, I agree with you. I was (badly) trying to say that a lot of TFA detractors seem to only care for what is really just a Wikipedia entry (general plot). They don't care to go deeper than that seeing as they just use surface similarities between ANH and TFA as criticism.
Of course there are people who have legitimate reasons for disliking the film but they seem to be few and far between.
brandonh83
Banned
Or just movies
For me personally, Ep III: ROTS is still a good deal behind Ep IV: ANH and Ep V: ESB, but I do think it's better than Ep VI: ROTJ. And I'm in my 40s, and grew up with Star Wars, even going to see A New Hope in the theaters multiple times back in the 70s as a kid. So I'm a huge fan of the OT, but I still think ROTS is a little better than ROTJ, because for me ROTJ was a pretty big drop from the first two parts of the OT. Eps I + II are easily the two worst films in the series for me though.
Killer Queen
Banned
I apologize, it can be quite hard to tell on the internet.
MadJackChurchill
Banned
It's a really bad movie with really bad motives and yet people think it's comparable to Episode VI. NAH.
It's the least shit of the prequels, it's still shit.
It's the least shit of the prequels, it's still shit.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
George Oscar Bluth II
Banned
Nah, it's on me. I phrased it badly
I'd still put it above Episode IV if you judge both movies in a vacuum (obviously Ep IV will be a defining film for a very long time, but it's lower budget really shows compared to the other films, and it doesn't have the thrilling energy that Empire and Jedi have).
Return > Empire > Revenge = Awakens > Hope > Phantom > Clones
But then my love for Return of the Jedi also seems to be heretical.
Return > Empire > Revenge = Awakens > Hope > Phantom > Clones
But then my love for Return of the Jedi also seems to be heretical.
Glass Rebel
Member
There's no fucking way you actually believe this.
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
I obviously can't speak for everyone, but no fight in the entire series comes even close to this. The amount of anger and randomness of the fight is just too fucking good.
It's just one of those scenes where nobody has to say a word, and you know exactly what is going through their minds.
Luke just railing on Vader. Seeing a villain who up to this point has never lost to anyone put his hand up the way he does. Just awesome.
30yearsofhurt
Member
What deluded universe do these prequel apologists come from?
They are all bad movies. Bad bad movies. Stinkers.
If you're sensibilities somehow wants to find something in them that is salvageable then you really need to question yourself as to why you like dross.
...yet not one backflip or somersault.
They are all bad movies. Bad bad movies. Stinkers.
If you're sensibilities somehow wants to find something in them that is salvageable then you really need to question yourself as to why you like dross.
I obviously can't speak for everyone, but no fight in the entire series comes even close to this. The amount of anger and randomness of the fight is just too fucking good.
It's just one of those scenes where nobody has to say a word, and you know exactly what is going through their minds.
...yet not one backflip or somersault.
I'm rewatching these 7 movies now and I can't stand rewatching AOTC.
What?
NNNNOOOOOOOOO!!
KeyBladerXIII
Member
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Maybe if the minority saws that TFA is bad enough times, it'll suddenly turn into a bad movie, those performances from relatively unknown actors will suddenly stop being incredibly charming and believable, the cinematography will suddenly be bad, and the subtle critiques on ideas such as the white male power fantasy will suddenly be stupid because JJ Abrams is a doodoo face. So let's go back and do even further revisionist history and state that a film that is entirely poor on everything it tries to accomplish with the only good scenes being completely unearned due to the audience having no emotional investment is good.
SoundPulse
Banned
It's my favorite of the prequel trilogy (III > I > II), and it has some scenes I actually do enjoy. The Palpatine and Anakin at the Opera House, for instance. I don't know if I would call it good, though. It's not a film I'll watch when I'm like "Man, I want to watch Star Wars".
my ranking would be something like
V -> IV -> VI = TFA -> III -> I -> II
my ranking would be something like
V -> IV -> VI = TFA -> III -> I -> II
MegaManTrigger
Banned
I can't ever accept Revenge of the Sith as a good movie. For me, it has aged very poorly in terms of dialogue, story, acting, and action scenes. These are the reasons why I can't accept RotS as a good movie:
1) Anakin's character arc doesn't even make sense. Most of his turn to the dark side is because LOLREASONS rather than organically building up throughout the story. Consider who Darth Vader was during the reign of the Galactic Empire; that is a man who ruled with an iron fist as long as it meant that order was brought to the Galaxy. In RotS, Anakin turns primarily because of Padme, which is a motivation that doesn't necessarily line up with Vader's view. What compounds the issue further is that the prequels didn't take enough time to develop Anakin's character in a believable way, leading to a very sudden turn simply because of tradition rather than story (if that makes sense).
2) Things happen because characters IQs are dropped, and because plot demands it. There's no reason why the Jedi Council couldn't be more suspicious of Anakin and his relationship with Palpatine given how close they were (aka why would a Jedi Knight be allied with a government worker, especially someone that controls the galaxy?). Hell, they let the man in the Council after he openly stated his displeasure with not being promoted into a Jedi Master. Obi-Wan especially suffers from this, who doesn't even notice something is wrong until Anakin goes Sith and kills the Jedi children. Shouldn't Obi-Wan notice the change in the force after Anakin killed Count Dooku, considering that he actually tapped into the Dark Side?
3) Characters that have no reason being in an already overstuffed story. Why did General Grievous have to exist? He's literally only there to sell toys. Count Dooku had to die because reasons, though I blame how poorly his character was introduced and developed in Ep. II.
4)
Enough said.
Personally, I think the reason why RotS is accepted within Star Wars fandom is because of the much closer ties to the original trilogy that was absent in Ep. I and II. Which I think is a very superficial way to look at the series as a whole.
1) Anakin's character arc doesn't even make sense. Most of his turn to the dark side is because LOLREASONS rather than organically building up throughout the story. Consider who Darth Vader was during the reign of the Galactic Empire; that is a man who ruled with an iron fist as long as it meant that order was brought to the Galaxy. In RotS, Anakin turns primarily because of Padme, which is a motivation that doesn't necessarily line up with Vader's view. What compounds the issue further is that the prequels didn't take enough time to develop Anakin's character in a believable way, leading to a very sudden turn simply because of tradition rather than story (if that makes sense).
2) Things happen because characters IQs are dropped, and because plot demands it. There's no reason why the Jedi Council couldn't be more suspicious of Anakin and his relationship with Palpatine given how close they were (aka why would a Jedi Knight be allied with a government worker, especially someone that controls the galaxy?). Hell, they let the man in the Council after he openly stated his displeasure with not being promoted into a Jedi Master. Obi-Wan especially suffers from this, who doesn't even notice something is wrong until Anakin goes Sith and kills the Jedi children. Shouldn't Obi-Wan notice the change in the force after Anakin killed Count Dooku, considering that he actually tapped into the Dark Side?
3) Characters that have no reason being in an already overstuffed story. Why did General Grievous have to exist? He's literally only there to sell toys. Count Dooku had to die because reasons, though I blame how poorly his character was introduced and developed in Ep. II.
4)
Enough said.
Personally, I think the reason why RotS is accepted within Star Wars fandom is because of the much closer ties to the original trilogy that was absent in Ep. I and II. Which I think is a very superficial way to look at the series as a whole.
I actually thought Lucas had Anakin on a decent path in AotC, despite the horrible dialogue. He talked about how dictatorships could be preferable and wanted the power to end all wars. His mother was killed because the lawless savages were allowed to exist.
It was a fine setup for Anakin falling intentionally, because he thought it would be for the greater good. The climax could have been him giving up his love for Padme in favor of his ideals in setting up the Empire. This would have tied in well with Darth Vader's OT character who is all about ending conflict and bringing order to the galaxy.
Instead we got the nonsense of his bad dreams and getting tricked into being a puppet, followed by killing a bunch of kids for some reason. This scene is complete and utter nonsense, compounded by horrid acting by Hayden. The whole attack on Palpatine was instigated because Anakin himself told them that he was a sith lord, and then Palpatine goes on to tell him that Anakin was the only one with no knowledge of the plot and that the jedi's next move is to slaughter the senate. Not that any of that matters, since his only motivation is saving Padme, which lasts for like a day. It's a complete joke.
It was a fine setup for Anakin falling intentionally, because he thought it would be for the greater good. The climax could have been him giving up his love for Padme in favor of his ideals in setting up the Empire. This would have tied in well with Darth Vader's OT character who is all about ending conflict and bringing order to the galaxy.
Instead we got the nonsense of his bad dreams and getting tricked into being a puppet, followed by killing a bunch of kids for some reason. This scene is complete and utter nonsense, compounded by horrid acting by Hayden. The whole attack on Palpatine was instigated because Anakin himself told them that he was a sith lord, and then Palpatine goes on to tell him that Anakin was the only one with no knowledge of the plot and that the jedi's next move is to slaughter the senate. Not that any of that matters, since his only motivation is saving Padme, which lasts for like a day. It's a complete joke.
I'm very curious what these subtle critiques on white male power fantasy you find in this focus tested to death Disney juggernaut. Are you just talking about the obvious Nazi metaphors?
George Oscar Bluth II
Banned
Do not want
30yearsofhurt
Member
TESB>ANH>TFA>>>ROTJ>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ROTS>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>TPM>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>AOTC.
Sunster
Member
Rey
Not at all. It is still, for me, easily the most disappointing movie in the saga. It has [theoretically] the easiest-to-sell and most compelling story of the prequels to tell, as well as a much-improved visual quality when compared to Episode II. And it completely screws the pooch.
From the first dialogue in the movie you get an immediate sense that Lucas is once again unable to get even passable performances from his actors. Then for the next 45 or so minutes the film manages to survive through a mix of some good and not-entirely-bad material. But once it gets to the Jedi's confrontation with Palpatine, everything falls apart. I cannot overstate how poorly acted/directed/edited those crucial scenes are, and how most of what follows continues the downwards descent.
I do not begrudge anyone who enjoys ROTS or really any piece of Star Wars media. I'm a big fan myself and I understand what it's like to enjoy something so much that you can overlook its negative qualities, but that doesn't mean I'll pretend that something succeeded when it absolutely did not.
From the first dialogue in the movie you get an immediate sense that Lucas is once again unable to get even passable performances from his actors. Then for the next 45 or so minutes the film manages to survive through a mix of some good and not-entirely-bad material. But once it gets to the Jedi's confrontation with Palpatine, everything falls apart. I cannot overstate how poorly acted/directed/edited those crucial scenes are, and how most of what follows continues the downwards descent.
I do not begrudge anyone who enjoys ROTS or really any piece of Star Wars media. I'm a big fan myself and I understand what it's like to enjoy something so much that you can overlook its negative qualities, but that doesn't mean I'll pretend that something succeeded when it absolutely did not.
i've no shame in admitting it's one of my favorite star wars movies.
the only indefensible parts imo is dealing with padme's death ("she lost the will to live" ...why not just have her die of labor complications) anakin's abrupt and awkward turn and another god awfully written 'romance' scene
the only indefensible parts imo is dealing with padme's death ("she lost the will to live" ...why not just have her die of labor complications) anakin's abrupt and awkward turn and another god awfully written 'romance' scene
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
God i'm re watching the scene of Palpatine being saved in ROTS.
Anakin beheading a man and calmly saying "I shouldn't have done that." Maybe you guys are right, some of the dialogue in this is expertly written, lmfao
Though I do have a scene I like with out a bit of sarcastic snark:
now thats pretty fucking cool
Anakin beheading a man and calmly saying "I shouldn't have done that." Maybe you guys are right, some of the dialogue in this is expertly written, lmfao
Though I do have a scene I like with out a bit of sarcastic snark:
now thats pretty fucking cool
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
In another life, the grandson of Darth Vader, and nephew of Luke Skywalker, who according to the main villain, has all the exact qualities of the dark side and the light side, and displays force powers never seen in the series because he's evidently a prodigy, would be the main character of this movie. In a way, Kylo Ren is the only person that a good chunk of the audience can relate with and be invested in because he's a white dude with a lightsaber, SO, instead of propping him up as the new Darth Vader or as the main character, they instead do the opposite, they give him few moments to shine in the beginning and then as it turns out, he's just a normal dude. A dude who gets beat by Rey, someone who's seemingly a novice. This is punctuated by how little chill he actually has, with his constant temper tantrums, perpetual sad puppy eyes, how pathetic he sounds when he tries to sound evil, "your son is gone." It's an incredibly clever way to do things when they really could've just created a villain who attempts to be as intimidating as Darth Vader or again, ditched Rey completely and made the story about him, the granddaughter of Darth Vader, who has the perfect mix of dark and light side because reasons. Like, is there ever a point after he takes off the mask for the first time in the film where you're genuinely afraid of him? Did you not laugh when he's throwing a temper tantrum, which is only emphasized by two stormtroopers with great comedic timing? Compared to Darth Vader's "I find your lack of faith disturbing" moment. It's pretty simple, and absolutely gratifying to see what they were going for.
MadJackChurchill
Banned
This is to the point where I still agree with you. It was a copy-paste of ANH, but it was a decade since the last main Star Wars movie was released. Realistically, they couldn't have taken it any other direction in order to make the audience cling onto the new series. Familiarity sells. It was still well-told, mostly.
Relating to your other points, it's like Zizek says, "what happens the day after liberation?" It's not just like the whole world gets fixed and everyone lives in harmony. An alliance of numerous systems, races and ideals with a significantly paired back budget have to now establish a multi-system democracy. It isn't easy!
You have some valid complaints, and while it would be wrong to chock this up to the alt-right movement, the valid points are mixed into some absolute trash with NO reasonable bearing. The alt-right mix in their whack pot theories with some of the plot criticisms to make it seem SOMEWHAT digestible.
I feel like most people struggle with separating what they like and what's good. Like, if Sith is one of your favorites, cool, but that doesn't make it good, you just like it.
Like...I love a Big Mac, but that shit barely qualifies as food the same way Sith is barely a coherent film.
Like...I love a Big Mac, but that shit barely qualifies as food the same way Sith is barely a coherent film.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
No. The only benefit it had was that it came after Episode II. It's still a bad fucking movie
Killer Queen
Banned
I love how the only reasoning people have for saying TFA is ANH is Starkiller base and that's like, it.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
It's literally a movie starring a woman, a black man, and a Latino man fighting with a diverse coalition against the fascist remnants of an empire yearning for its glory days.
It's not all that subtle though.
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
There was also a place with sand, don't forget!
Glass Rebel
Member
Apparently also not a huge fan of human language either.
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