was it released in Central / South America, though? There's more spanish speaking people than just ... Spaniards
Is the Pokémon "Are you a boy or girl?" thing outdated?
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was it released in Central / South America, though? There's more spanish speaking people than just ... Spaniards
-Mutsukki-
Member
I agree to an extent, but that doesn't make it more true though.
I really don't remember that in my upbringing but i'm probably just terribly ignorant. By the way, not thinking that a simple question in simple video game is not an outrage is not equal to being close-minded to transgenderism and gender fluidity. Hell, transgenderism doesn't even have an issue with the choices presented here to begin with
was it released in Central / South America, though? There's more spanish speaking people than just ... Spaniards
I'm sad to inform you that games rarely get translated here. And Baten Kaitos definitely wasn't one of them
peaceiscloser
Member
hey man, I identify as a male, but I have almost always picked the girl player character in Pokemon because damn son they are always way more stylish
was it released in Central / South America, though? There's more spanish speaking people than just ... Spaniards
Whatever you're trying to imply, I don't know. But Baten Kaitos Origins was never released in Spanish, not here nor there.
Salty Rice
Member
There would be still a male and female difference in there alone for easy customization.
Springfoot
Member
read the title of the OP. Stop propagating that "OMG OUTRAGE" strawman. People are simply discussing what could be improved beyond the current system of character creation / gender selection.
Nobody's creating any real or fake outrage here.
AntiFacebook kinda equated "spanish" == "Spain". I was merely being pedantic about the possibility of a game having spanish localization and not an EU release. there's certainly precedent for that
-Mutsukki-
Member
Fair enough. Change "outrage" with "outdated" and my point still stands
chillybright
Banned
Do schools teach gender fluid concept any where in the world? If so at what age?
I'd argue that 0.5 is what we're calling bigender, not agender, because 0.5 is between the two, not separated from them. Feeling agender is more like there's 1 and 0, and you feel like A.
And I mean, at the end of the day, I 100% agree with you. I'm not telling anyone that they can't live the way they want. I'm saying, in my opinion, you should never want to live like that.
People have thought that I had dumb opinions long before you came along. So trust me, I'm not offended in the least when other people think that too.
glaringradio
Member
Nope, just a character creator that starts with an amorphous blob, then you choose what you want.
Omega Ultimus
Member
As someone who has never felt comfortable or safe enough to disclose their inner gender identification outside the confines of a confidential setting, I just want everyone to know that I'm not outraged at Nintendo, Game Freak, or anyone for that matter, for not including a non-binary choice of character identification and representation for players who are aligned in that way. I understand that people see gender defined in terms of male or female - even if you are transgender, you still are either a male or female transgender person, even if tragically, a large majority won't respect that identification. I even understand that the concept of other genders seems alien or fake to most people.
What I'll tell you isn't fake: the disgust, embarrassment, self-loathing, and general dysphoria I feel when I see myself in the mirror. The fear of having my gender identification exposed when I'm forced to participate in gender-typical activities as I struggle to maintain the facade. The utter and crushing loneliness I feel day in and day out because I cannot express my feelings outwardly and identify freely. Why should I fear, why should I feel lonely? Because, just as stated in this thread, I, and others like me, are considered by the general populace to be "attention whores", "crazy", and/or "broken".
I didn't want to ever "come out" publicly, let alone on a game forum, let alone in a Pokemon thread. Yet, I'm done being such a minority that I'm not marginalized, I'm casually dismissed out of hand. I just want to be treated like a person. I just want a little respect, a little empathy. I'm sorry for the rant, but I assure you I'm not outraged - I'm just here.
What I'll tell you isn't fake: the disgust, embarrassment, self-loathing, and general dysphoria I feel when I see myself in the mirror. The fear of having my gender identification exposed when I'm forced to participate in gender-typical activities as I struggle to maintain the facade. The utter and crushing loneliness I feel day in and day out because I cannot express my feelings outwardly and identify freely. Why should I fear, why should I feel lonely? Because, just as stated in this thread, I, and others like me, are considered by the general populace to be "attention whores", "crazy", and/or "broken".
I didn't want to ever "come out" publicly, let alone on a game forum, let alone in a Pokemon thread. Yet, I'm done being such a minority that I'm not marginalized, I'm casually dismissed out of hand. I just want to be treated like a person. I just want a little respect, a little empathy. I'm sorry for the rant, but I assure you I'm not outraged - I'm just here.
Salty Rice
Member
Are we sure we still wanna play this game at some point instead of making it more complicated?
In your opinion.
In other people's opinion, we don't know much about child psychology or in fact transgenderism and they want a higher bar of evidence than what has been shown so far.
Calling anyone not up with the latest neurological research in a niche area "ignorant" is beyond ridiculous
It's still an argument you need to win, and insulting everyone who doesn't think like you is incredibly intolerant and not the way to change hearts and minds.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Because Pokemon is only for children. Funny thing is kids would probably be more accepting of this. It's a bunch of adults holding conservative ideals and stances that are in this thread criticizing the idea of extra options.
i don't think many do, but i wouldn't use this as a reference either - there's schools that decide to teach creationism over evolution, after all.
Also, just because there's an option that says "neither" (which i assume would be a decent enough option), i don't think any kid gets 'indoctrinated' to a degree where parents would feel forced to explain to their 6 year old the ins and outs of gender identity and intersexuality.
Sure the choice is binary, but the choice is a visual one.
So it is really a choice of anatomical sex, nothing to do with your gender identity.
Now I know that some individuals do change their outwards appearance to match the "inside" (quotes since we're talking figurative insides, not the guts), which they are more than free to do.
In the case of Pokemon the above is solved by choosing the outwards appearance closest to what you'd prefer.
Now.. Could the wording be different? Sure, I can see why some people might understand the question as being directed at them, the player, rather than the character (and for some it is the same thing, isn't immersion just wonderful?).
Ultimately though.. I, personally, do not find it outdated. Always up for more character customisation though, when that eventually happens.
So it is really a choice of anatomical sex, nothing to do with your gender identity.
Now I know that some individuals do change their outwards appearance to match the "inside" (quotes since we're talking figurative insides, not the guts), which they are more than free to do.
In the case of Pokemon the above is solved by choosing the outwards appearance closest to what you'd prefer.
Now.. Could the wording be different? Sure, I can see why some people might understand the question as being directed at them, the player, rather than the character (and for some it is the same thing, isn't immersion just wonderful?).
Ultimately though.. I, personally, do not find it outdated. Always up for more character customisation though, when that eventually happens.
Starfield
Member
No but it is aimed at them. Target Audience. Children have to learn for themselves what gender they identify with but that happens usually and naturally at a later time and not when you are lets say 9. That'd just confuse the mind of a child.
Nimmermehr
Neo Member
It's a Role Playing Game where you play a 10 year old.
Kids usually don't care about gender issues, so this shouldn't really be a problem.
In contrary adults should be able to admire it as a ROLE Playing Game, where you usually get a choice of roles and pick the one you like the most. The character in the game is not supposed to represent the real-life-identity of the player.
Kids usually don't care about gender issues, so this shouldn't really be a problem.
In contrary adults should be able to admire it as a ROLE Playing Game, where you usually get a choice of roles and pick the one you like the most. The character in the game is not supposed to represent the real-life-identity of the player.
Captain Europe
Member
Something tells me there are more adults opposed to the option than children, as per usual.
Gender identity isn't a topic I'm well versed in, but not something I'm opposed to at all. If people want more options then that's fine.
How would this work in a non-binary character select? Would it be a slider along a spectrum or just a full character customisation suite?
Are there examples outside of a full custom character create setting?
How would this work in a non-binary character select? Would it be a slider along a spectrum or just a full character customisation suite?
Are there examples outside of a full custom character create setting?
John Kowalski
Banned
them for example
NoblesseOblige
Banned
There are still plenty of schools being bogged down by conservatives. At least a few times a year we see stories of some that won't even allow gay students attend prom. Hell, there was a public school local to me a few years ago that was still doing prayers over the PA each morning.
while your post is mostly reasonable, the first 2 lines are a bit ... irregular. The choice is both a visual one (clothes, hairstyle) as well as a 'verbal'(?) one (pronouns used). Both are a matter of gender, not anatomical sex.
well, a slider might be far more complicated to implement than simply going "neither" (of the 2 extremes)
If you're making a paladin and the game asks you "is your character a brutish warrior in full armor or a spellcaster wearing merely robes" - you'd say "neither" because you're somewhere in between, or outside of the spectrum altogether.
The 'neither' option would then have access to player models of both male and female.
I did a survey recently that had 33 gender options. Maybe Pokemon should take that list, and include specific pronouns for each?
Would be interesting to see how parents worldwide would respond to questions like "Mummy am I demigender?" or "Daddy am I neutrois?"
Consider me part of the crowd that doesn't see the problem with having to choose between boy/girl. Maybe they can make it clear that you are choosing on behalf of your character in the game, rather than choosing your own gender. I mean, if you can accept that a world exists where you can catch monsters in small balls, surely it's also possible that all inhabitants of this world are exclusively boy/girl.
Salty Rice
Member
"You have to know every aspect of every concept in every possible issue or event. Also you have to agree with me. If not you are ignorant"
People on Gaf sure love to throw the word "ignorant" around.
People on Gaf sure love to throw the word "ignorant" around.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Do you have evidence that supports that? I see nothing about the Pokemon games that is exclusively targeting children.
KojiKnight
Member
I know it won't mean much but hey *hugs* stay strong!
While it's ridiculous that TPC could have to dance around it, it'd be pretty simple to just not use pronouns (they already mostly don't anyways to simplify localization) and use a character creator and remove gender limitations from clothing. They don't have to say anything, they don't have to tout their decision... They could slip it right into the game without a word and there would be no controversy, no one would step up and complain that the game didn't ask if they were a boy or a girl, etc. Most people wouldn't even notice.
Please do note that I never said being raised to be close-minded and ignorant means that you remain that way well into adulthood or that being raised that way is a deliberate effort by one's parents. What my post was meant to convey is that we live in a society that is not especially receptive towards people who don't fit the established gender binary, and the direct result of that is that parents often don't know how to (or don't want to) teach their children about what transgenderism/gender fluidity is, what it means for an individual who exhibits these traits, and how they might struggle with it*. This combined with general societal discomfort aimed at people who exhibit transgenderism or gender fluidity makes it extremely likely for children to end up close-minded and ignorant towards these traits until they further educate themselves on the matter or are educated on it by others.
It's also worth noting that I'm not indicting anyone for being close-minded or ignorant or saying that being so is worth indicting in the first place. I'm simply saying that people having an ill-informed mindset towards transgenderism and gender fluidity is rather common and that that is very unfortunate.
*in the same sense that parents might explain to a young child what it means for someone to have a mental or physical disability. Which isn't to imply that I think transgenderism/gender fluidity is a disability, just that it is a sensitive issue of relative rarity that is going to be a new experience for a child at some point. This in turn means that their parents will have to explain to them what it means.
e: As an addendum, reading the disheartening number of posts in this thread making fun of people who don't fit the gender binary goes to show how common it is for people to harbour ignorance and ill will towards gender fluidity, even within relatively well-educated circles like NeoGAF.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
That's actually the definition of ignorant, you know. Not knowing something.
Omega Ultimus
Member
Actually, it means a lot. Sincerely, thank you.
No, I don't think it's outdated. The majority of the world doesn't think there's an issue here, and Game Freak probably doesn't either. Relative to our understanding of the world, yeah I'd say it's a little outdated. Relative to the rest of the world though? No, it is not.
Cow1337killr
Banned
It's a role-playing game, you are playing a role - not yourself. You have the selection to assume the role of a male, or the role of a female.
Salty Rice
Member
More like not knowing everything in existence.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Well yeah, that is also ignorance. But this is a topic about gender in a game. And if people posting have no clue what gender identity entails, well then, as it pertains to this disucssion, they are ignorant.
GinoFelino
Member
All the best to you.. It takes tremendous strength to go through what you're going through. Thankfully, the existence of these threads means the times are changing, and many, even here, understand and feel your plight. I hope those more resistant to that change won't get you down.
chillybright
Banned
Creationism is a dumb western problem that shouldn't be used to argue against school's importance in shaping value of individuals and therefor the next generation. You cannot choose your parent but what you learn from school is monitored and evaluated by professionals. Moreover they are mostly unified in a country or cultural group so they will shape the "norm" of the society.
Of course school cannot possibly teach you everything but if issue as important as the view gender should be altered from the Status Quo, there is no more suitable way than start to systematically inform kids at a certain age. Before that happens, it wouldn't be a good idea to ask parents do the work simply because there is no guarantee each parent will have the proper knowledge for a comprehensive view. And a skewed view is worse than a ignorant one.
But is it wrong to ask if it's based off biology?
Biologically there are two genders (Well, three with the physical effects of intersex), whilst you can identify as several, so my question would be, is it offensive if you are asking the question based upon biology rather than psychology/social/cultural differences?
I'd assume Pokémon's target audience comes into play more here too, as it's less of an issue than with older players.
I suppose the simplest way would be to just have a more full character creator and forgo the question altogether.
Biologically there are two genders (Well, three with the physical effects of intersex), whilst you can identify as several, so my question would be, is it offensive if you are asking the question based upon biology rather than psychology/social/cultural differences?
I'd assume Pokémon's target audience comes into play more here too, as it's less of an issue than with older players.
I suppose the simplest way would be to just have a more full character creator and forgo the question altogether.
You have my sympathies. I hope your personal struggle comes to a happy conclusion soon.
This seems a little silly to me.
I am not a big Pokémon person, but I assume that the game is referring to what sex you want to play as, and not what your actual sex is. And to expect the game to actually be inclusive of every variation of sex and sexual identity is ridiculous just from a programming standard. It is only feasible to take those dialogue trees so far out there before the narrative becomes nonsensical.
These are roleplaying games. If you want to play as yourself in said game, realize that the amount of permutations that a game would have to recognize while still presenting some simblence of a narrative is limited.
Look at the Elder Scrolls Series. You have the option to be Human, Elf, Dwarf, Cat Person, , Lizard Person and so on, male or female for each. If you choose Orc, it is not because you identify as an Orc in reality, but that is the story you want to play.
What the OP seems to want out of games is a male Cat Person transitioning to a female Lizard Person. Imagine the amount of writing and permutations that would be involved in creating that scenario.
As far as a game simply asking if I am a boy or a girl. As a human male who identifies with being a male, I always choose female. Because Ripley from the Alien franchise is my favorite character. So I try to get as close to that as possible when creating a character in game. Not because that is who I am, or who I want to be, but because I want to see my favorite protagonist ripping it up across multiple universes.
I am not a big Pokémon person, but I assume that the game is referring to what sex you want to play as, and not what your actual sex is. And to expect the game to actually be inclusive of every variation of sex and sexual identity is ridiculous just from a programming standard. It is only feasible to take those dialogue trees so far out there before the narrative becomes nonsensical.
These are roleplaying games. If you want to play as yourself in said game, realize that the amount of permutations that a game would have to recognize while still presenting some simblence of a narrative is limited.
Look at the Elder Scrolls Series. You have the option to be Human, Elf, Dwarf, Cat Person, , Lizard Person and so on, male or female for each. If you choose Orc, it is not because you identify as an Orc in reality, but that is the story you want to play.
What the OP seems to want out of games is a male Cat Person transitioning to a female Lizard Person. Imagine the amount of writing and permutations that would be involved in creating that scenario.
As far as a game simply asking if I am a boy or a girl. As a human male who identifies with being a male, I always choose female. Because Ripley from the Alien franchise is my favorite character. So I try to get as close to that as possible when creating a character in game. Not because that is who I am, or who I want to be, but because I want to see my favorite protagonist ripping it up across multiple universes.
JensenBeeswax
Member
Souls still asks male or female, iirc.
NurseRedHeart
Member
I can definitely agree with this statement : )
hemo memo
You can't die before your death
Yes but the professor asks what are you not what you would like to play as.
If the games had a character creator where you could pick individual pieces, that would bypass the whole thing.
Like, you could make the standard boys or girls, or pick pieces from a bunch of character frameworks, or maybe go full Monster Factory and just play as Cyber Garfield. That'd be cool.
Probably too much work for Gamefreak tho.
Like, you could make the standard boys or girls, or pick pieces from a bunch of character frameworks, or maybe go full Monster Factory and just play as Cyber Garfield. That'd be cool.
Probably too much work for Gamefreak tho.
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