Support NeoGAF

[remist]

According to Israeli law you can't just go to a place claim it as your own and build on it. You need to buy it from the previous owner, you need building permits - i.e. an architect that checked that the house you want to build won't collapse.
Illegal buildings are demolished. Doesn't matter if they were built by israelis or arabs. But the media reports only about arabic demolished buildings (last year, 2013, an entire israeli neighborhood in givaat haulpena was demolished - 0 world media reports). Nobody cares if an israeli got his home demolished if he didn't submit all the necessary paperwork. But if it involves an arab it suddenly becomes a war crime. Go figure.

The systematic displacement of Palestinians from their homes, that is increasing coinciding with the resumption of peace talks, along with the confiscation of humanitarian aid sent to relieve said families is just a problem with bureaucratic paperwork and not anything nefarious. Israel has the best intentions for all involved.

 

[captainnapalm]

They lost those lands in 2 wars they started in 48 and 67. If they wnated to they could have accepted UN's proposition in 1947. But they didnt. They wanted all of the jews gone/dead and started a war.
Unfortunately for them they lost that war and a few others that followed. It's not their territory anymore.

About what can be expected from someone who tried to explain away systematic mass displacement and oppression as a paperwork issue.

 

[Chichikov]

They lost those lands in 2 wars they started in 48 and 67. If they wnated to they could have accepted UN's proposition in 1947. But they didnt. They wanted all of the jews gone/dead and started a war.
Unfortunately for them they lost that war and a few others that followed. It's not their territory anymore.

Give me a fucking break, there were about 10,000 Palestinians who fought in the 48 war, so now Palestinians never get the right to vote forever and ever?
This is fucking ridiculous.
And they obviously didn't participate in the '67 in any meaningful capacity.

 

[wsippel]

They lost those lands in 2 wars they started in 48 and 67. If they wnated to they could have accepted UN's proposition in 1947. But they didnt. They wanted all of the jews gone/dead and started a war.
Unfortunately for them they lost that war and a few others that followed. It's not their territory anymore.

It was their own fucking territory, why should they be content with a small part of it when everything rightfully belonged to them?

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

They lost those lands in 2 wars they started in 48 and 67. If they wnated to they could have accepted UN's proposition in 1947. But they didnt. They wanted all of the jews gone/dead and started a war.
Unfortunately for them they lost that war and a few others that followed. It's not their territory anymore.

The international community disagrees. International Court of Justice, UN General Assembly and UN Security Council consider Israel an occupying power.

 

[Dead Man]

They lost those lands in 2 wars they started in 48 and 67. If they wnated to they could have accepted UN's proposition in 1947. But they didnt. They wanted all of the jews gone/dead and started a war.
Unfortunately for them they lost that war and a few others that followed. It's not their territory anymore.

So you are arguing that might makes right, and that people who had no political voice are responsible for waging a war. Cool, seems a useful precedent.

 

[Despera]

Well, their actions are driven by their devotion to their religion. So the solution is to convert everyone in that area to atheism!

 

[dripdripsplash]

This is bad.

What's worse is that thousands of Palestinians are starving to death in Syria - but this is bigger news I guess cos it's the evil Joos who are responsible.

Whataboutism

Read up on it. Seems like your prefered method of debating Israel.

 

[Johnny]

I don't need to read wikipedia articles, big parts of my extended family are sephardic Jews.
Again, outside Egypt in 56, there were no major expulsion of Jews, and in the two biggest Jewish communities - Iraq and Morocco, the local governments have tried to stop the Jews from leaving, they literally made it illegal for Jews to go to Israel, in the case of Morocco, Israel had to fucking pay them money for every Jew they allowed to go to Israel.
Now I'm not saying that those place were super friendly to Jews (they were pretty nice by the way, much better than Europe until the 20th century and the rise of Zionism, but that's neither here nor there) but there was never a systematic expulsion of Jews from these countries, this is just revisionist history.
The whole Jewish Nakbah thing is a recent attempt by Israel to create a false equivalence, it's bullshit, that all it is, and in any case it has nothing to do with the demolition of Palestinian houses by Israel.

Everyone holds false notions from time to time, it's what one does after being presented with knowledge that discredits those notions that counts. You really have no idea what you're talking about, any hard data presented to you is ignored, then followed up with more Israel/Zionism bashing.

44 Jews were murdered in Morocco back in '48 during anti-Semitic riots, riots which continued for years. Is that not good reason to flee a country? The Iraqi state outright executed it's 50 remaining Jews back in '69. Both countries forbade emigration to Israel for a time, based on the fear of those emigrants strengthening Israel's position in the region. Iraq was kind enough to allow emigration on the condition that the remaining Jews renounce their citizenship and relinquish all of their assets to the state. Sounds pretty nice to me!

Hopefully someone more curious than yourself reads all of this stuff and takes interest in what's been discussed. History's more interesting when you've opened yourself up to all of it.

 

[genjiZERO]

I was in Israel/Palestine over the Christmas holiday for about two weeks.

The tension in Jerusalem is palatable. It's very tense and uncomfortable. Everyone in my family felt it, and when we went to other areas (like Galilee) people would talk about it openly. It doesn't help that a neighborhoods are literally divided in two by the Wall, and that the gate to that wall is guarded by children with M16s.

It seems to me that the Occupation of the West Bank is a systematic way for Israel to annex that territory.

The situation is absolutely untenable, and in my opinion, the problem is 99% Israel's fault because, for no other reason, of the vice-like grip they have on the economy and livelihood of Palestinian territory. It's an apartheid state, it's disgusting, and I don't see how a reasonable person could argue otherwise.

I think Fatah needs to hold a major conference, the message of which is a call to dedicated and systematic mass non-violent resistance. If they continue to have people peacefully protesting by the Wall, and the Israeli government continues to murder them, they will eventually win even if it takes a while and many more people are killed.

Now if you read my thread you no I support a One-state solution. In the long term, I think it's the only solution that will work. None of the people in the area are going anywhere (and in my opinion for the better) - the sooner they can learn to get along the better. Both sides need an attitudinal change, but I think they majority of the blame rests in the Israeli military-political machine and Zionist hardliners.

Also, while I think the blame lies squarely on Israel don't take think I am condemning the state. Things are bad in Jerusalem, but in other parts of the country (the north) things are different. Also, if you want to support Palestinians I think one of the best things you can do is go there and spend money in Palestine and in Israel in Arab-Israeli towns (like Nazareth) or in integrated dedicatedly liberal places like Akko and Haifa.

 

[dripdripsplash]

Everyone holds false notions from time to time, it's what one does after being presented with knowledge that discredits those notions that counts. You really have no idea what you're talking about, any hard data presented to you is ignored, then followed up with more Israel/Zionism bashing.

44 Jews were murdered in Morocco back in '48 during anti-Semitic riots, riots which continued for years. Is that not good reason to flee a country? The Iraqi state outright executed it's 50 remaining Jews back in '69. Both countries forbade emigration to Israel for a time, based on the fear of those emigrants strengthening Israel's position in the region. Iraq was kind enough to allow emigration on the condition that the remaining Jews renounce their citizenship and relinquish all of their assets to the state. Sounds pretty nice to me!

Hopefully someone more curious than yourself reads all of this stuff and takes interest in what's been discussed. History's more interesting when you've opened yourself up to all of it.

Are you saying there was a systematic and major compulsion of Jewish citizens of arab nations comparable to the Palestinian Nakba ?

 

[Johnny]

Are you saying there was a systematic and major compulsion of Jewish citizens of arab nations comparable to the Palestinian Nakba ?

It's been mentioned a few times in the thread. Here's some reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries

 

[Dopus]

Let bygones be bygones. There is absolutely no justification for the way Palestinians are treated right now.

 

[qizah]

Absolutely terrible and disgusting. It's shameful that there's nothing being done about this either...

 

[dripdripsplash]

It's been mentioned a few times in the thread. Here's some reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries

If you can link me something more credible than a wikipedia article I would be very grateful. I am genuinely interested.

Also I'd like to hear your opinion on the matter.

 

[params7]

And the world just sits by and watches.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/27/us-palestinians-gaza-un-idUSBRE87Q0OE20120827

UN is powerless.

They lost those lands in 2 wars they started in 48 and 67. If they wnated to they could have accepted UN's proposition in 1947. But they didnt. They wanted all of the jews gone/dead and started a war.
Unfortunately for them they lost that war and a few others that followed. It's not their territory anymore.

I see age of colonialism isn't over for some folks.

 

[genjiZERO]

If you can link me something more credible than a wikipedia article I would be very grateful. I am genuinely interested.

Also I'd like to hear your opinion on the matter.

That Wikipedia article is pretty well referenced. Not just Jews, but the flight of Christians from Middle Eastern countries since the early 20th century is a major issue as well. The Middle East was a lot more diverse 100 years ago than it is now. It's really a shame in my opinion.

I think the loss of diversity is part of the reason the area has such problem contemporaneously. It's at least partially responsible for the rise of Islamic fundamentalism*. Basically, my thesis is that diversity keeps different groups in check, and the loss of diversity allows the remaining group to harden (particularly if it has money and control of government). IMO, it's diversity keeping the US secular not the constitution.


*As is continued European and American imperialism over the century.

 

[Johnny]

If you can link me something more credible than a wikipedia article I would be very grateful. I am genuinely interested.

Also I'd like to hear your opinion on the matter.

My opinion on the Jewish exodus? It was horrible of course. Many people were deprived of their property, nationhood and lives. People can be real dicks.

Wikipedia is only as credible as it's sources, and there are 144 attached to the article. That should give you a good start.

 

[And_Gignac]

History wont be kind to Israel.

 

[GSG Flash]

Doesn't mean I'm just going to sit here and do nothing about it from my side. We have a large community called Friends of Palestine present in most big UK cities. We do demonstrations, protests and it works...even if in a minor way. Even if we can save or improve one life, it's a better than none at all. We are also currently campaigning against banning BAE system's investment in our university (University of Liverpool), it's the highest of any UK university and if we manage to do that (and we won't be the first to accomplish it) then we'll make things considerably hard for them when it comes to drone research and biochemicals...and that is a victory in itself.

If you raise your voice enough then you will be heard and as such the people in power will have to bend eventually, it's not a myth because it does happen !

The UK is, fortunately, one of the few places where change can happen through activism, as is a lot of Western EU actually.

I'm just very jaded with North American politics. Even here, in Canada, where the majority of the population is neutral on the issue, our moron of a Prime Minister, backed by the Israeli lobby here, can go over to Israel and spout a bunch of pro Israel/anti Palestinian nonsense, which are a result of his own personal xenophobic views but definitely do not reflect the views of the Canadian populace, yet we can't do anything to change it.

It's even worse in the states, where they actually have a pull on Israel and world politics in general.

I recall reading in a few articles that the majority of Jewish migrants to Israel, who are migrating there under the "right of return" law, are in fact descendants of converts to Judaism and have no real ancestral tie to the region.

I've also read a study, from Israeli researchers, that Palestinians are descendants of the ancient Israelites that zionists like to trumpet about. So they have as much of a claim to that land as anyone else.

For building in disputed territories of Jerusalem? As easy as it is for an Israeli - i.e. he cant. Currently an Israeli can't build there as well.
Nobody is stopping them from building in their cities in the west bank. If they want to build there they need a permit from the Palestinian prime minister, Abu Mazen, and his government, not the Israeli one.
The demolished building are in disputed territories where currently no one is allowed to build.
So they are in the same situation as any Israeli.If they want to build in the Palestinian territories/cities -they can, and they need the permits from their local government. If they want to build in Jerusalem's disputed territories - they cant. If an Israeli wants to build in Tel Aviv he needs an Israeli permit, if he wants to build in the disputed territories of Jerusalem - he cant.
Both sides try to build there illegally once in a while and get their house torn down when the trial ends.

Israeli can't build in disputed territories?

How do you explain the 558 homes Israel just approved in East Jerusalem?:
http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/06/world/meast/israel-new-settlements/

Not to mention the historical evidence we have of Israel approving new Jewish housing in East Jerusalem on a frequent basis.

Palestinians need permission from the government in the West Bank to build there? What if they want to build in the illegal Jewish settlements? What hope do they have of building there? Do Israelis also need the permission of the Palestinian government to build new settlements or expand existing ones?

There's so much wrong with your post, it's actually mind boggling why you thought it was fit to post in this thread.

 

[Oriel]

Unsurprisingly, I've talked to quite a few Jews whose families fled prior to WW2 and lived in Israel for a while, only to come back to Germany later because they simply couldn't identify with Israel and the government's actions.

If I remember correctly there was this story of an Iraqi Jew who fled Baghdad after the US invasion and was evacuated to Israel along with other Iraqi Jews by the IDF. He ended up in some retirement home where he had nothing to do but stare at the four walls of his tiny bedroom endlessly and regretted ever leaving his home in Iraq. Says it all really.

 

[BravesCountry]

If I remember correctly there was this story of an Iraqi Jew who fled Baghdad after the US invasion and was evacuated to Israel along with other Iraqi Jews by the IDF. He ended up in some retirement home where he had nothing to do but stare at the four walls of his tiny bedroom endlessly and regretted ever leaving his home in Iraq. Says it all really.

What exactly does it say? not sure where you are going with this

 

[Kinitari]

You're making a lot assumptions. There's nothing wrong with criticizing Israel, I just did myself in case you didn't notice. The point is, when outrage and focus is overwhelming placed on those perpetrating lesser ills, one has to question the motivation behind that selective focus. It's simply biased.

I'm not trying to deflect attention off of Israel, I'm not calling anyone an anti-semite. I was mostly trying to correct someone's false statement. The Syrian thing was an aside.

I appreciate the sarcasm though.

Here's the thing - the nature of the Israel/Palestine situation is pretty unique in the world right now, and it very much sits in the public eye. There are atrocities happening all around the world right now, but the really bad ones aren't happening in developed nations, and there is an understanding that non developing nations will have strife - that being said, the general public whole sale condemns these actions - no one is defending what North Korea is doing, for example.

However, Israel is a developed nation supported heavily by the U.S.and now my countries (Canada) PM has started looking at Israel all starry eyed. When the atrocities are brought up, a lot of people defend them. We have expectations of a country as developed as Israel, and they are not being fulfilled.

And to further add fuel to the fire, often when people criticize these actions, they are accused of being anti-Semitic. It's no wonder people are constantly engaged and enraged with the Israel Palestine situation, accusing people who rightly criticize a country for horrible actions of what is essentially racism will -enrage- them, rightfully so.

 

[inm8num2]

History wont be kind to Israel.

That depends on who's writing the history books.

 

[Costia]

The international community disagrees. International Court of Justice, UN General Assembly and UN Security Council consider Israel an occupying power.

Yes, but occupying from who?
Those territories belonged to Jordan and Egypt not to a palestinian state. And both of those countries refused to take the west bank and gaza back... (edit and currently still refusing. Especially Egypt who will probably kill palestinians on sight)
But the UN are sort of a joke in the middle east. Look how well they are doing in egypt and syria right now.
The UN was between Lebanon and Israel before the second lebanon war. It was their job to stop it. Not only they didn't do a damn thing, but they ran away before the first shot was fired. They were worse than useless. The IDF had to go into lebanon and escort the UN forces out. Not only the UN weren't doing their job , but they couldn't even take care of themselves, they needed to be babysitted by the IDF.
The UN is perceived here as a western reality drama used for PR purposes only. Nobody actually gives a damn about what they write, because they never enforce it. They run away at the first sign of actual trouble.

BTW if it wasn't clear so far i am from Israel. Maybe i should do an AmA

To some of the others here:
Israelis building inside the west bank a.k.a. settlements are disputed within israel itself as well. Eventually they will get torn down and evacuated just like arik sharon did in gaza, it's just a matter of time. For now they are used to get better peace treaty terms, not really nice, but it works. The palestinians are doing the same with "recognising the state of israel". As of now their official stance is that israel doesn't exist and all jews must be deported from their land - where their land isn't just gaza/west bank but includes all of Israel as well.

 

[DodgerSan]

This is bad.

What's worse is that thousands of Palestinians are starving to death in Syria - but this is bigger news I guess cos it's the evil Joos who are responsible.

There is a big difference between the people of Israel and the Government of Israel. Painting them all with the same brush is like saying all Americans supported the invasion of Iraq. Many didn't, in the same way that many Jews do not at all support their Government's policies toward Palestine.

 

[Zaphod]

...not really nice, but it works.

That is an unpleasant way to look at forcibly displacing a population in order to achieve political gain.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Yes, but occupying from who?
Those territories belonged to Jordan and Egypt not to a palestinian state. And both of those countries refused to take the west bank and gaza back...
But the UN are sort of a joke in the middle east. Look how well they are doing in egypt and syria right now.
The UN was between Lebanon and Israel before the second lebanon war. It was their job to stop it. Not only they didn't do a damn thing, but they ran away before the first shot was fired. They were worse than useless. The IDF had to go into lebanon and escort the UN forces out. Not only the UN weren't doing their job , but they couldn't even take care of themselves, they needed to be babysitted by the IDF.
The UN is perceived here as a western reality drama used for PR purposes only. Nobody actually gives a damn about what they write, because they never enforce it. They run away at the first sign of actual trouble.

BTW if it wasn't clear so far i am from Israel. Maybe i should do an AmA

To some of the other here:
Israelis building inside the west bank a.k.a. settlements are disputed within israel itself as well. Eventually they will get torn down and evacuated just like arik sharon did in gaza, it's just a matter of time. For now they are used to get better peace treaty terms, not really nice, but t works.

The territories didn't legitimately belong to Jordan or Egypt either, though. The fact that Jordan and Egypt illegitimately invaded and occupied the territory granted to the independent state of Palestine by the successful resolution 181 (II) of the United Nations doesn't give Israel the right to that territory, just because they captured it from other illegitimate occupiers.

 

[HolyBaikal]

This is so sad and horrible. Israel should not be allowed to do this.
No one should treat human beings like this.

I don't know what can be done to make the Israeli government stop this. But I really want this to stop.

 

[Costia]

That is an unpleasant way to look at forcibly displacing a population in order to achieve political gain.

You are taking what i said out of context. I wasnt talking about displacing anyone. I was talking about Israelis building in the west bank. They aren't displacing anyone, they are building ,illegally, in empty places and will eventually get torn down as well.
let me show you a picture of a settlement. Please tell me who they displaced:
http://communabuilder.tapuz.co.il/UsersFolders/mitnachalim/images/16549_42878_1.jpg
http://www.nrg.co.il/images/archive/300x225/974/641.jpg
http://blog.saftastory.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/15-years.jpg
The only big one is Ariel. Which is a bit problematic since it would be quite expensive to demolish and relocate.
The other settlements are a few crazy families on a hill.

 

[Costia]

The territories didn't legitimately belong to Jordan or Egypt either, though. The fact that Jordan and Egypt illegitimately invaded and occupied the territory granted to the independent state of Palestine by the successful resolution 181 (II) of the United Nations doesn't give Israel the right to that territory, just because they captured it from other illegitimate occupiers.

But the thing is the arabs and the palestinians didn't accept resolution 181, they started a war and tried to get the entire territory to themselves. They failed to do so and now want the same terms as before they tried to kill us all.... nope.

 

[Zaphod]

You are taking what i said out of context. I wasnt talking about displacing anyone. I was talking about Israelis building in the west bank. They aren't displacing anyone, they are building ,illegally, in empty places and will eventually get torn down as well.
let me show you a picture of a settlement. Please tell me who they displaced:
http://communabuilder.tapuz.co.il/UsersFolders/mitnachalim/images/16549_42878_1.jpg
http://www.nrg.co.il/images/archive/300x225/974/641.jpg
http://blog.saftastory.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/15-years.jpg
The only big one is Ariel. Which is a bit problematic since it would be quite expensive to demolish and relocate.
The other settlement are a few crazy families on a hill.

If they are not displacing anyone why did the government feel the need to destroy over 600 Palestinian structures last year? The only reason given seems to be along the lines of collective punishment.

 

[RustyNails]

But the thing is the arabs and the palestinians didn't accept resolution 181, they started a war and tried to get the entire territory to themselves. They failed to do so and now want the same terms as before they tried to kill us all.... nope.

Can you explain to us why would Arabs in their right mind accept a proposal that took away majority of the arable land from under them?

 

[genjiZERO]

You are taking what i said out of context. I wasnt talking about displacing anyone. I was talking about Israelis building in the west bank. They aren't displacing anyone, they are building ,illegally, in empty places and will eventually get torn down as well.
let me show you a picture of a settlement. Please tell me who they displaced:
http://communabuilder.tapuz.co.il/UsersFolders/mitnachalim/images/16549_42878_1.jpg
http://www.nrg.co.il/images/archive/300x225/974/641.jpg
http://blog.saftastory.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/15-years.jpg
The only big one is Ariel. Which is a bit problematic since it would be quite expensive to demolish and relocate.
The other settlements are a few crazy families on a hill.

That's factually untrue.

You should watch this documentary.

 

[speculawyer]

They lost those lands in 2 wars they started in 48 and 67. If they wnated to they could have accepted UN's proposition in 1947. But they didnt. They wanted all of the jews gone/dead and started a war.
Unfortunately for them they lost that war and a few others that followed. It's not their territory anymore.

So the loss of a war means you get to commit genocide or ethnic cleansing on the population? Damn, I claim Sony and Nintendo for myself! Japan is OURS!


And, I'm sorry to go Godwin, but that view basically says Hitler's killing of Jews was just fine as long as he was winning wars.

 

[Costia]

Can you explain to us why would Arabs in their right mind accept a proposal that took away majority of the arable land from under them?

The poster i was answering to claimed that Israel should have acted according to resolution 181 of the UN. So there is your reason.
If you are saying that the arabs shouldn't listen to the UN , then you should expect israel listen to the UN as well. It is quite unfair to say that Israel should give up their rights due to resolution 181 but the arabs shouldn't.

 

[Costia]

So the loss of a war means you get to commit genocide or ethnic cleansing on the population? Damn, I claim Sony and Nintendo for myself! Japan is OURS!

What genocide and ethnic cleansing?

That's factually untrue.
You should watch this documentary.

"Documentary". Just like the documentary pictures from gaza that were from syria, or that footage of an injured man screaming in pain on the bbc(?) and then seen walking away behind the reporter.
The palestinians have a great PR department that the IDF lacks

 

[Kinyou]

"Documentary". Just like the documentary pictures from gaza that were from syria, or that footage of an injured man screaming in pain on the bbc(?) and then seen walking away behind the reporter.
The palestinians have a great PR department that the IDF lacks

You're aware that it was an Israeli who turned this into a documentary?

Also:

The film was released in Israel in July 2012 and immediately won the Best Documentary Award at the Jerusalem Film Festival, where it competed against another Oscar nominated film, "The Gatekeepers." The film also received an award named after the slain Palestinian-Israeli filmmaker, Juliano Mer Khamis at the Cinema South Film Festival in Sderot. In Israel, Five Broken Cameras received overwhelming positive reviews, with Timeout Israel calling it “a masterpiece” and Israeli film critic Shmulik Duvdevani naming it "the most important cinematic event of the year." Even Israel’s most popular right-wing newspaper "Israel Hayom" called the film "the best documentary of the year" (2012). Both directors, Guy Davidi and Emat Burnat also appeared on the cover of the cultural weekend section of Israel’s leading newspaper, Yediot Achronot. in 2013 the film was nominated for the Israeli Film Academy award (Ophir Award) for the Best Documentary Film section.

 

[genjiZERO]

What genocide and ethnic cleansing?


"Documentary". Just like the documentary pictures from gaza that were from syria, or that footage of an injured man screaming in pain on the bbc(?) and then seen walking away behind the reporter.
The palestinians have a great PR department that the IDF lacks

Do you deny that it was filmed in Bil'in? Or are you also saying that the Israeli co-director Guy Davidi is also involved in some conspiracy?

 

[Dopus]

You are taking what i said out of context. I wasnt talking about displacing anyone. I was talking about Israelis building in the west bank. They aren't displacing anyone, they are building ,illegally, in empty places and will eventually get torn down as well.
let me show you a picture of a settlement. Please tell me who they displaced:
http://communabuilder.tapuz.co.il/UsersFolders/mitnachalim/images/16549_42878_1.jpg
http://www.nrg.co.il/images/archive/300x225/974/641.jpg
http://blog.saftastory.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/15-years.jpg
The only big one is Ariel. Which is a bit problematic since it would be quite expensive to demolish and relocate.
The other settlements are a few crazy families on a hill.

So wait, what you're saying is that the Israelis are displacing Palestinians in the West Bank but that it's a separate issue to the illegal settlements that are being built there? But you do agree with fact that Palestinians have been and are being displaced in the West Bank?

"Israel demolished 390 shacks and other structures in the West Bank's strategic Jordan Valley in 2013, displacing nearly 600 Palestinians, twice as many as the year before, a U.N. agency said Thursday." - http://news.yahoo.com/un-reports-rise-israel-demolitions-west-bank-163055093.html

 

[Deleted member 231381]

But the thing is the arabs and the palestinians didn't accept resolution 181, they started a war and tried to get the entire territory to themselves. They failed to do so and now want the same terms as before they tried to kill us all.... nope.

So, a number of problems here. The first is that you've immediately pigeon-holed everyone by assuming that all Arabs and all Palestinians didn't accept resolution 181, assumed all of them were in favour of the war, etc. Jaysh al-Inqadh al-Arabi, or the Arab Liberation Army, saw only 6,000 volunteers and was only capable of fielding 3,500 of those, in the 1947-48 Civil War. Of those 6,000 volunteers, the largest groups involved were actually Syrian and Lebanese fighters. While the Arab League didn't accept resolution 181 and used the initial civil war as an excuse for intervention, this wasn't a universal decision by Arabic nations - of the seven Arabic nations at the time, only four of the seven (Egypt, Iraq, Transjordan, and Syria) actually engaged. By saying 'the arabs' and 'the palestinians', you're pushing a huge and diverse group with a large array of different opinions, beliefs, customs and cultures into a single group, and then pinning the blame from a small section of this group on the whole group. This is basically racism, straight and simple - you're an Arab, therefore I can just lump you in with all the rest of them.

Secondly, the fact that some of the Palestinians engaged in the civil war and later Arab-Israeli War in no way gives Israel an excuse to remove territory from them. Yes, there was a great wrong committed then, but there is no excuse for inflicting punishment upon the sons for the sins of their fathers. The '67 war was (obviously) 47 years ago now. Entire generations of Palestinians who were never involved in the original civil war or intervention escalation have grown up in an occupied state, watching their homes taken from them and their history and culture destroyed. Territory is more than just the property of the people of a single era, it's also the property of all the people to come; of future generations. Right now, Israel is slowly destroying those future generations.

 

[Costia]

Do you deny that it was filmed in Bil'in?

Haven't watched it, so i can't tell you...
The palestinians are in deep sh*t, but most of it is their own fault. Or more precisely their leader's fault.
I wouldn't want to be on their side. But the problem is if Israel lets them do whatever they want we are going to have 9/11 on a daily basis here.
There were busses exploding almost weekly before the wall was built. Rockets were hitting Isareli cities on a daily basis before "Cast lead" and the iron dome.
Rockets are still being fired at israel from gaza and sinay(Egypt) om almost a daily basis, but the iron dome shoots them down before they do any harm. Though a few still hit once a week or so.
So what is your suggestion? Just let them kill us because they are poor?

 

[Dopus]

Haven't watched it, so i can't tell you...
The palestinians are in deep sh*t, but most of it is their own fault. Or more precisely their leader's fault.
I wouldn't want to be on their side. But the problem is if Israel lets them do whatever they want we are going to have 9/11 on a daily basis here.
There were busses exploding almost weekly before the wall was built. Rockets were hitting Isareli cities on a daily basis before "Cast lead" and the iron dome.
Rockets are still being fired at israel from gaza and sinay(Egypt) om almost a daily basis, but the iron dome shoots them down before they do any harm. Though a few still hit once a week or so.
So what is your suggestion? Just let them kill us because they are poor?

I don't know, maybe less of the ethnic cleansing and land grabbing and maybe a little more of the peace talks with an actual objective would be a start...

Let's not pretend that the Israeli Government are the victims here. Things like the Prawer Plan aren't exactly going to help resolve the situation.

 

[EmiPrime]

I wish the international community would do something about this. Sadly the Israel lobby is powerful in many western states so nothing will ever be done.

Apologists for genocide and apartheid who say that the Palestinians some how "deserve this" or that it's their own fault sicken me.

 

[Costia]

So, a number of problems here. The first is that you've immediately pigeon-holed everyone by assuming that all Arabs and all Palestinians didn't accept resolution 181, assumed all of them were in favour of the war, etc. Jaysh al-Inqadh al-Arabi, or the Arab Liberation Army, saw only 6,000 volunteers and was only capable of fielding 3,500 of those, in the 1947-48 Civil War. Of those 6,000 volunteers, the largest groups involved were actually Syrian and Lebanese fighters. While the Arab League didn't accept resolution 181 and used the initial civil war as an excuse for intervention, this wasn't a universal decision by Arabic nations - of the seven Arabic nations at the time, only four of the seven (Egypt, Iraq, Transjordan, and Syria) actually engaged. By saying 'the arabs' and 'the palestinians', you're pushing a huge and diverse group with a large array of different opinions, beliefs, customs and cultures into a single group, and then pinning the blame from a small section of this group on the whole group. This is basically racism, straight and simple - you're an Arab, therefore I can just lump you in with all the rest of them.

Secondly, the fact that some of the Palestinians engaged in the civil war and later Arab-Israeli War in no way gives Israel an excuse to remove territory from them. Yes, there was a great wrong committed then, but there is no excuse for inflicting punishment upon the sons for the sins of their fathers. The '67 war was (obviously) 47 years ago now. Entire generations of Palestinians who were never involved in the original civil war or intervention escalation have grown up in an occupied state, watching their homes taken from them and their history and culture destroyed. Territory is more than just the property of the people of a single era, it's also the property of all the people to come; of future generations. Right now, Israel is slowly destroying those future generations.

about the first: the same thing is happening in this thread, people talk about israelis as if everyone here has the exact same view.
About the second: It is not only a great wrong committed then. It is still ongoing. The wars between israel and the arabs didn't stop yet. Lebanon and sirya are still israel's enemies, and so are the hamas that are currently in control of gaza and could quite easily take over the west bank as well (something israel is trying to prevent)
I do agree with you that it is unfair that the entire palestinian people are being punished for the deeds of a few, be it their ancestors or the terrorists. But there is no way to tell them apart. In the cast lead operation israel tried to do exactly that. Israel went into gaza and tried to catch the terrorist leaders, that didn't go so well for either side.
There is no simple solution that would let israel to keep itself secure while giving palestinians the freedom they want (and deserve).

 

[Roastbeef]

Haven't watched it so i can't tell you...
The palestinians are in deep sh*t, but most of it is their own fault. Or more precisely their leader's fault.
I wouldn't want to be on their side. But the problem is if Israel lets them do whatever they want we are going to have 9/11 on a daily basis here.
There were busses exploding almost weekly before the wall was built. Rockets were hitting Isareli cities on a daily basis before "Cast lead" and the iron dome.
Rockets are still being fired at israel from gaza and sinay(Egypt) om almost a daily basis, but the iron dome shoots them down before they do any harm. Though a few still hit once a week or so.
So what is your suggestion? Just let them kill us because they are poor?

How about stopping the construction of new settlements and the demolition of Palestinian homes?

 

[Costia]

I don't know, maybe less of the ethnic cleansing and land grabbing and maybe a little more of the peace talks with an actual objective would be a start...

Let's not pretend that the Israeli Government are the victims here. Things like the Prawer Plan aren't exactly going to help resolve the situation.

Peace talks would be great. But with who?
There is Abu Mazen who is the elected president, but has 0 control on what's actually going on. He is great at giving speeches, but can't actually do anything. A treaty he signs won't be worth much.
The other option is the hamas leader. They have the power to control the palestinians and lead them, but their current stance is to abolish israel and turn it into a religious islamic state - no thanks. You can see how well it works in egypt.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

about the first: the same thing is happening in this thread, people talk about israelis as if everyone here has the exact same view.

Someone earlier (can't remember who off the top of my head) quite rightly pointed out this is 'what-aboutism'. When someone says 'you've done something wrong, here's why', saying 'you're also doing it wrong' doesn't in anyway disprove their point. Also, regardless of what other people in this thread are doing, I'm not doing it - I'm actually incredibly glad that the Jewish people are diverse and different and that not all of them support what the state of Israel is doing. I'd be rather depressed if that wasn't the case. Given this is so, can you give me a valid counter-point, and not just some 'tu quoque!' aimed at other people in this thread.

About the second: It is not only a great wrong committed then. It is still ongoing. The wars between israel and the arabs didn't stop yet. Lebanon and sirya are still israel's enemies, and so are the hamas that are currently in control of gaza and could quite easily take over the west bank as well (something israel is trying to prevent)
I do agree with you that it is unfair that the entire palestinian people are being punished for the deeds of a few, be it their ancestors or the terrorists. But there is no way to tell them apart. In the cast lead operation israel tried to do exactly that. Israel went into gaza and tried to catch the terrorist leaders, that didn't go so well for either side.
There is no simple solution that would let israel to keep itself secure while giving palestinians the freedom they want (and deserve).

There is no on-going war recognised by the Israeli Defence Force. The last such war recognised by the IDF was the 2006 Lebanon War (incidentally, planned by Israel since March 2006). Are there on-going hostilities? Yes - but let's talk about what makes hostilities worse. I'd say one of the things that makes people more likely to target a state is when that state has illegally occupied their land, evicted their people, and killed their families. It takes two to sustain hostilities, and much (although not all) of the violence is in response to Israel's actions, and not pre-empting them.

 

[Costia]

How about stopping the construction of new settlements and the demolition of Palestinian homes?

That would be a great start. Personally I am against building any settlements in the west bank. I don't agree with the religious motives of building there, and for all i care they can be demolished tomorrow.

I agree with not demolishing palestinian homes in the west bank - that would be stupid. But Jerusalem, specifically, is an entire mess altogether. Currently i think no one should build there until some sort of an agreement is achieved.

 

[RustyNails]

The poster i was answering to claimed that Israel should have acted according to resolution 181 of the UN. So there is your reason.
If you are saying that the arabs shouldn't listen to the UN , then you should expect israel listen to the UN as well. It is quite unfair to say that Israel should give up their rights due to resolution 181 but the arabs shouldn't.

Because Arabs rejected the proposal once, it's ok for Israel to continually reject every resolution from United Nations and trample on the rights of Palestinians? I do not understand this justification. United Nations has been evolving since League of Nations was disbanded. It was basically the playground of big boys and the countries they proxied. There's a reason why Haiti and Liberia voted for the plan and India and Cuba didn't. Countries were forced to vote for the plan at the risk of being run to the ground by the big players and every country that severed the ties with their ex-imperialist master voted against the plan while every country with huge western influence voted for it. That sort of influence exists even today but it has been largely dissipated due to globalization. Even today the 5 permanent members of UN Sec Council are hugely disproportionate with veto power, a relic of pre Cold War. Israel continuously shits on UN resolutions because it's big brothers US and UK rule the playground. If it could abide by the rules instead of thumbing the nose of UN, it could go a long way towards establishing a purpose for UN.