Jag
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Israeli demolition of Palestinian homes in Jerusalem and West Bank highest in 5 years
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Cheesecakebobby
Banned
I said a large percentage sold the land or left because they were told to do so by the Arab world. The fact that 6% of the entire land of Israel had been privately bought by Jews prior to 1943 - not 1948 - does not prove your assertion anyway, in fact it suggests a higher proportion than you reckon.
The rest of your post if merely a one-sided mantra that suggests no openness whatsoever to discussion. It's as if you can only see one group's perspective when everyone has legitimate grievances and everyone has suffered in various ways. If you feel Israel had no right to exist in the first place - despite the fact that as it was the first country to be created with the backing of the UN, actually has the strongest legal basis of any country in history to that point - then there is really nothing Israel could do now, good or bad, that could change your opinion. As a pragmatist, I look to the future and want to think about how the interests of both Israelis and Palestinians are best served and I see that as two states side by side, each enjoying self-determination, each enjoying freedom.
Indeed, that comment was as bad as any I saw from the guy in this thread who got banned! i don't know how to go about reporting posts to mods though...
RustyNails
Member
Yes, the world was very different 60 years ago. To suggest world institutional bodies remain static over time is ignorant. Just because resolution 181 was a shit cake does not invalidate the entire existence of UN. Suppose we remove UN from the picture all together. Doesn't Israel have a moral duty towards Palestinians?
Golan Heights is a lot less important region than East Jerusalem. I'm sure if your government starts demolishing their homes and treat them like cattle, they will resist just like Hamas.
In this case, don't worry about it, because a mod happened to be in the thread. In future, if anyone needs to report something that violates the ToS, you're always welcome to PM a mod.
Cheesecakebobby
Banned
Thanks, I was wary of 'backseat modding'
Synth_floyd
Banned
How is Zionism racism? If so then all forms of nationalism are racism, including the Palestinians' claims to a country. It sucks what Israel is doing but to deny their right to exist as a country is despicable.
dripdripsplash
Member
The New Historians has already refuted the Israeli narrative that Palestinians was told to leave the land by the other Arabs or even themselves.
I acknowledge the existence of the State of Israel. I do not acknowledge the foundation on which it was founded.
And the discussion is not needed really. Because the injustice is as clear as day. You know that. The whole world knows it.
Why should the grievences that the Jews went through now be exacted on the Palestinians ?
This is what makes the issue so tricky. Palestinians and Jews have an equally valid claim to that land. Palestinian people have been living there for 1500 years, and the Jewish faith is intrinsically tied to the area. I can understand disgust at the violence by which Israel was founded (evicting tens of thousands of people is surely an act of violence) but to say that Israel should not exist is just as violent. The Israeli government has done and continues to do horrible, horrible things to the Palestinian people, but the United States, Great Britain, and the rest of the Middle East have no better of a track record. To say that Israel should not exist -- that is, to say there should be no country for the Jewish people -- reeks of antisemitism. I am horrified at the brutality of the Israeli government and its disregard for both human rights and international law, but to say Israel should not exist is far too extreme.
dripdripsplash
Member
A holy book saying the Jews should have the land is not legitimate.
I have never said there shouldn't be a jewish homeland. It should not come to existence at the cost of another people though. I think we all can agree on that.
Nice throw of that anti semtism card too.
Zionism is racist because of its inherint thought of the Jews as more worth of a land than the native people that reside there. Uganda, Palestine . Argentina. You name it. This is clerly seen by the lack of debate in all of the zionist intellectuals works. There is absolutely no debate of the fate of the native people that the zionis ts sought to steal. And this is in all of the early zionist intellectuals works not just Hertzl.
I have never said there shouldn't be a jewish homeland. It should not come to existence at the cost of another people though. I think we all can agree on that.
Nice throw of that anti semtism card too.
Zionism is racist because of its inherint thought of the Jews as more worth of a land than the native people that reside there. Uganda, Palestine . Argentina. You name it. This is clerly seen by the lack of debate in all of the zionist intellectuals works. There is absolutely no debate of the fate of the native people that the zionis ts sought to steal. And this is in all of the early zionist intellectuals works not just Hertzl.
Saying that Israel should not exist is just as hateful as saying Palestine should not exist. Israel was certainly founded on violence, but so was effectively every other nation on Earth. The Palestinian people entered the territory through violent means as well. What's more important is that Israel continues to commit atrocities against the Palestinian people.
dripdripsplash
Member
"They did it too"
EDIT: I truly don't see whats so hateful about saying that the foundation of a country shouædn't happen at the cost of other human beings.
EDIT: I truly don't see whats so hateful about saying that the foundation of a country shouædn't happen at the cost of other human beings.
Can you name a country that was not founded upon the suffering of other people? Israel just did it later. The eviction of the Palestinians was horrible and a human tragedy, but it's not more reprehensible than how really any other nation was founded.
dripdripsplash
Member
You're not serious are you ?
We have international laws now for a reason.
We have international laws now for a reason.
Jag
Member
It's understandable to be upset over it. It's when the hate crosses the line which for some people is inevitable.
I feel bad for the treatment of the American Indians. But if I was given the choice of my country or their lives, I probably would have done the same thing.
dripdripsplash
Member
And I fully acknowledge that all kinds of states was founded by violence and war. But international law is what differenciates hundrede of Years ago and now.
Edit: not in Israels case apparently but you know what I mean.
Edit: not in Israels case apparently but you know what I mean.
Messofanego
Banned
I don't understand this. Did Israel increase demolition to spite the negotiations?
I guess Istael really doesn't care about international disapproval. If this is unlawful, shouldn't crime allegations start happening or have those been shut down?
MisterFalcon
Member
This is exactly what the Jordanians did after 1948, all synagogues were demolished, all Jews expelled and their homes bulldozed. And somehow it became illegal for any Jews to return.
This horrible but I'm not surprised that no one is going to step up and do something about it.
Not when you have the US watching your back.
Not when you have the US watching your back.
dripdripsplash
Member
It is extremely ironic though." We got you back in everything but you still screw us over in everything"
Zionism is unquestionably racist. The preaching that you are god's people, that a land is promised to you by god and that assimilation is bad is an ideology of racial supremacy that permits the worst atrocities because of the belief god is on their side. Nationalism is typically xenophobic at best but when you throw god and ancient texts into the mix it becomes particularly insidious.
As for the Palestinian claims to land, they already had homes and businesses there, some as recently as this month!
As for the Palestinian claims to land, they already had homes and businesses there, some as recently as this month!
Damn right. Israel was carved out of the Middle East with sheer force. They also pioneered modern terrorism with the King David Hotel bombing. Ironic, that.
This sort of stuff may have worked before WW2, but it's not tolerated anymore in the modern age. Drawing arbitrary lines on maps with complete disregard to the people living there (also seen with Armenians and Kurds) can only end in misery.
It can be solved, but requires honest cooperation from both parties. After decades of bloodshed, good luck with that.
SneakyStephan
Banned
Those pictures are heartbreaking
Jag
Member
You may not be reading the same news that I am because there is worse shit going on in the world that is being tolerated and ignored.
RustyNails
Member
This is not tragedy olympics. Israel-Palestine issue has been ongoing for the past 60 years and have led to wars and terrorism, including 9/11 and everything that entailed since then. Its a systematic oppression of an occupied peoples in violation of every civilized international law. But it keeps on and lives on because of vested interests and power brokers that benefit from status quo.
Umm, you do know that there were Christian Arab kingdoms in the Levant prior to Islam right? It was Arab Muslims fighting Arab Christians for the most part of those Byzantine wars. The Palestinians also have Israelite genetic makeup as well, so it's not at all the way you think it is.
I personally believe that Israel is unquestionably the best country in the middle east. Israel is the only country where a minority holding an Israeli passport is afforded more rights and protections, than an ethnic, or religious minority, in any other country in the region. However, the situation with the Palestinians is definitely a concern. It's not just Israel at fault either. The Palestinians, both Hamas and the PLO, also share in the blame.
As far as I know, the inhabitants of Roman Palestine were no more Arab than the Jews. They were certainly Semitic, but they didn't speak Arabic to the best of my knowledge. That language was relegated to the lower part of the peninsula.
Messofanego
Banned
Sick Palestinians neglected in Israeli jails
Israeli jails holding medical records.
"Sick prisoners are released only in their final stages or when they become a burden to the system."
From a person let out: "I'm leaving behind people who are suffering. Go see for yourself. Go see the living dead. Go see the half men. Go see the open abdomens."
Israeli jails holding medical records.
"Sick prisoners are released only in their final stages or when they become a burden to the system."
From a person let out: "I'm leaving behind people who are suffering. Go see for yourself. Go see the living dead. Go see the half men. Go see the open abdomens."
not psycho
Member
I've said this here before, but I think there is a huge disparity between what you could consider the "origin" of this problem, and what is currently happening.
I have a lot of sympathy for Israel when it comes to the origin. Back when Israel was created the world was shifting from an era when boundaries were more in flux, and "might makes right." With all the anti-Jewish sentiment and attempts to wipe them off the globe, they won some wars and established control on some land. Even though it was late in the day for that method of boundary creation, it could still have worked. But it didn't work because the anti-Jew hate was so deep. Others in the region would much rather keep the Palestinians in hideous conditions (continuing to this day) to be used as pawns. That simply would not have happened if it was any other war against any other group. So it seems to me that Israel was already in a difficult situation with people wanting to kill them, and then even winning the war didn't fix it because the hate was so deep their enemies would be willing to wait forever, maintaining their Palestinian pawns, to keep striking at them.
But Israel is totally in the wrong now, because what is currently happening, and the historical origins, are two different things. The facts on the ground now are overwhelmingly anti-Israel. Yes, they were set up that way largely on purpose by anti-Israel groups, and would never have ended up that way were it anyone else. Yes, I have a lot of sympathy for Jews back then. But nothing justifies the current demolition and mistreatment of Palestinians. You have to separate the two things. "Our situation wasn't fair" is absolutely true. And it absolutely does not justify mistreating Palestinians today. Honestly, I think Israel doesn't have much hope. Demographically, they are on the losing side. They are only propping themselves up by committing horrible acts. At some point they have to admit that life being unfair doesn't justify hurting others.
I have a lot of sympathy for Israel when it comes to the origin. Back when Israel was created the world was shifting from an era when boundaries were more in flux, and "might makes right." With all the anti-Jewish sentiment and attempts to wipe them off the globe, they won some wars and established control on some land. Even though it was late in the day for that method of boundary creation, it could still have worked. But it didn't work because the anti-Jew hate was so deep. Others in the region would much rather keep the Palestinians in hideous conditions (continuing to this day) to be used as pawns. That simply would not have happened if it was any other war against any other group. So it seems to me that Israel was already in a difficult situation with people wanting to kill them, and then even winning the war didn't fix it because the hate was so deep their enemies would be willing to wait forever, maintaining their Palestinian pawns, to keep striking at them.
But Israel is totally in the wrong now, because what is currently happening, and the historical origins, are two different things. The facts on the ground now are overwhelmingly anti-Israel. Yes, they were set up that way largely on purpose by anti-Israel groups, and would never have ended up that way were it anyone else. Yes, I have a lot of sympathy for Jews back then. But nothing justifies the current demolition and mistreatment of Palestinians. You have to separate the two things. "Our situation wasn't fair" is absolutely true. And it absolutely does not justify mistreating Palestinians today. Honestly, I think Israel doesn't have much hope. Demographically, they are on the losing side. They are only propping themselves up by committing horrible acts. At some point they have to admit that life being unfair doesn't justify hurting others.
There may have been some proto-Arabic speaking tribes, but most of the inhabitants of the Levant, pre-Islam, spoke Aramaic, Syriac, Greek, or one of a number of other Semetic languages.
sadceph2001
Member
"The Jews don't have any right to any land in the world.
This is the facts. The Jews have no legitimate right to any land in the world."
I don't understand what you mean by the above statement if you don't believe that there shouldn't be a Jewish homeland?
He could just mean that they should stop their expansion, or that they should stop their occupation?
MisterFalcon
Member
Does this mean Poland is illegaly occupying East Prussia ?
As a part of peace treaties both Germany and Japan had their ability to engage in warfare crippled after World War II and the German loss of East Prussia was a part of that. Poland didn't attack Germany and militarily occupy the land to start moving Polish civilians in and so it in no way compares to what Israel is doing on the Palestinian occupied territories.
The point remains solid as it was Germany's attempt to increase it's territory by military might that was slapped down by the Allies. 'Lands won by the spear' type shit was horrible enough when people were fighting with swords and spears, it becomes untenable in a world of chemical (mustard gas in WWI) and nuclear warfare (atom bombs in WWII).
Can Crusher
Banned
Yet the U.S backs these guys.
MisterFalcon
Member
But Jordan did attack Israel in 1967 which led to the West Bank falling into Israeli hands. Israel had no plans to attack Jordan and had discreetly let this be known to King Hussein but Nasser tricked Hussein into attacking by claiming all the planes seen on radar were the Egyptian air force bombing Israel.
Editing mistake. You're talking about after the six day war started? (A war in which Israel attacked first?)
Fenderputty
Banned
Holy fuck what an evil post. But we gotta support this asshole with our tax dollars because. ... The bible.
I actually don't believe Israel should be a Jewish state just like I don't believe there should be a catholic state or a protestant state or a buddhist state. Any state that has the dominant religion enshrined in law is inevitably going to discriminate and become aggressive against those they percieve as a threat as Israel is doing to the palestinians. Its disgusting really. The palestinians just want whats rightfully theirs.
phosphor112
Banned
My wife started crying and ran to the bathroom when
the son asked his dad why they don't just kill the jews because they are killing their friends
This is one of the stupidest things I've ever read.
It's pretty damning when civil rights activists are considered "PR" and JIDF people that are literally hired or recruited to defend Israeli and AIPAC interests while attacking those who threaten it isn't PR.
They do it every time. When Palestine was voted in as a recognized state by the UN General Assembly, Israel announced they were expanding plans to build settlements.
Seriously, the day after. It's bullshit. You know they don't give a fuck what anyone thinks.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/30/us-palestinians-israel-settlements-idUSBRE8AT0VQ20121130
dripdripsplash
Member
And when 5 Broken Cameras is called "PR" you know that there is people who is so severely brainwashed and indoctrinated that it'll be hard for the situation to get better.
I agree with a lot that has been said so I won't repeat similar sentiments but just wanted to say how outrageous this whole charade is on the US and Israel's part.
US claims they want peace talks for peace. Israel says "yeah we do too!". Anytime the US proposes anything at all Israel doesn't agree too, they not only publicly denounce the talks as dangerous, they go and continue building illegal settlements.
Its a joke of a process and I wish the US would pull out of it. But of course we have to pretend like we are an objective moderator with the best interest at heart for both sides. We don't have the best interest at heart. When the NYC mayor is claiming one of his job requirements is keeping Israel safe (wtf?) and no politician can even openly speak about Israel's mistakes and wrongdoings, how the hell are we supposed to be some peace broker?
Seems like its in the best interest of Israel and the US to keep the status quo. Gives them reasons and opportunities to flex muscle.
US claims they want peace talks for peace. Israel says "yeah we do too!". Anytime the US proposes anything at all Israel doesn't agree too, they not only publicly denounce the talks as dangerous, they go and continue building illegal settlements.
Its a joke of a process and I wish the US would pull out of it. But of course we have to pretend like we are an objective moderator with the best interest at heart for both sides. We don't have the best interest at heart. When the NYC mayor is claiming one of his job requirements is keeping Israel safe (wtf?) and no politician can even openly speak about Israel's mistakes and wrongdoings, how the hell are we supposed to be some peace broker?
Seems like its in the best interest of Israel and the US to keep the status quo. Gives them reasons and opportunities to flex muscle.
zero shift
Banned
Classic PR. It's obvious that the Palestinians got together and had the guy crying over the rubble to make people think that he would be sad that his home got demolished. Those sneaky Palestinians.
phosphor112
Banned
He's posing. Dat pallywood.
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