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Israeli demolition of Palestinian homes in Jerusalem and West Bank highest in 5 years

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Costia

Member
Someone earlier (can't remember who off the top of my head) quite rightly pointed out this is 'what-aboutism'. When someone says 'you've done something wrong, here's why', saying 'you're also doing it wrong' doesn't in anyway disprove their point. Also, regardless of what other thread in this people are doing, I'm not doing it - I'm actually incredibly glad that the Jewish people are diverse and different and that not all of them support what the state of Israel is doing. I'd be rather depressed if that wasn't the case. Given this is so, can you give me a valid counter-point, and not just some 'tu quoque!' aimed at other people in this thread.



There is no on-going war recognised by the Israeli Defence Force. The last such war recognised by the IDF was the 2006 Lebanon War (incidentally, planned by Israel since March 2006). Are there on-going hostilities? Yes - but let's talk about what makes hostilities worse. I'd say one of the things that makes people more likely to target a state is when that state has illegally occupied their land, evicted their people, and killed their families. It takes two to sustain hostilities, and much (although not all) of the violence is in response to Israel's actions, and not pre-empting them.
A counter-point to what? not all arabs/paestinians hate israel/jews, but the ones who are in power do, and eventually that's what matters.
Actually there is an official war in Israel right now though i couldnt find the source in english:
http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/מצב_חירום_(ישראל)
אף שהנסיבות ששררו בישראל ב-1948 השתנו, ההכרזה על מצב חירום לא בוטלה עד היום.
rough translation: An emergency state was declared on 1948 [when the war started] and wasn't cancelled to this day.
So officially israel is still in a state of war since 1948.
About the second lebanon war, it wasn't planned in advance. I served in the northern front command at the time (at 18 all israelis are drafted for 3 years). It started as a small operation to rescue the kidnapped soldiers and evolved/escalated into a war.
I don't agree about "illegally", I guess no war is legal, but 181 was proposed, refused, and then a war started. Obviously families and people in general were killed on both sides, and both sides hate each other for that.
I am aware that the palestinians are hostile towards israelis and vice versa, and both have their reasons. This isn't helping anyone.
 

Roastbeef

Banned
That would be a great start. Personally I am against building any settlements in the west bank. I don't agree with the religious motives of building there, and for all i care they can be demolished tomorrow.

I agree with not demolishing palestinian homes in the west bank - that would be stupid. But Jerusalem, specifically, is an entire mess altogether. Currently i think no one should build there until some sort of an agreement is achieved.

Ok, so you're actually a reasonable person. I do agree on many of the points that you make: even from a purely strategic point of view, the situation is indeed an unparalleled clusterfuck that even the most well-meaning politicians would struggle to negotiate out of. and I can understand how the constant threat of being hit by attacks yourself will desensitize anyone for the plight of the opposite side- so I don't blame you for your stance.

I really do wonder though: is there any significant political movement in israeli politics that pushes for removing the settlements and opposes the influence of the orthodox extremists living there?
Because as long as you all don't keep your religious extremists in check, it's gonna be hard to convince the others to do the same.
 

Costia

Member
Because Arabs rejected the proposal once, it's ok for Israel to continually reject every resolution from United Nations and trample on the rights of Palestinians? I do not understand this justification. United Nations has been evolving since League of Nations was disbanded. It was basically the playground of big boys and the countries they proxied. There's a reason why Haiti and Liberia voted for the plan and India and Cuba didn't. Countries were forced to vote for the plan at the risk of being run to the ground by the big players and every country that severed the ties with their ex-imperialist master voted against the plan while every country with huge western influence voted for it. That sort of influence exists even today but it has been largely dissipated due to globalization. Even today the 5 permanent members of UN Sec Council are hugely disproportionate with veto power, a relic of pre Cold War. Israel continuously shits on UN resolutions because it's big brothers US and UK rule the playground. If it could abide by the rules instead of thumbing the nose of UN, it could go a long way towards establishing a purpose for UN.
I was responding to this specific question that you asked:
Can you explain to us why would Arabs in their right mind accept a proposal that took away majority of the arable land from under them?
I wasn't talking about any justifications at all. All I said is that if you (you. not me. you) don't expect the arabs to honor UN decision - don't expect the israelis to honor them either.
The palestinians should have the same rights as any other person on earth, but on at the expense of Israel's (or specifically my) safety. Expecting Israel to follow UN decisions while the Hamas clearly doesn't is suicidal.
 

genjiZERO

Member
Haven't watched it, so i can't tell you...
The palestinians are in deep sh*t, but most of it is their own fault. Or more precisely their leader's fault.
I wouldn't want to be on their side. But the problem is if Israel lets them do whatever they want we are going to have 9/11 on a daily basis here.
There were busses exploding almost weekly before the wall was built. Rockets were hitting Isareli cities on a daily basis before "Cast lead" and the iron dome.
Rockets are still being fired at israel from gaza and sinay(Egypt) om almost a daily basis, but the iron dome shoots them down before they do any harm. Though a few still hit once a week or so.
So what is your suggestion? Just let them kill us because they are poor?

At first, I was willing to take you seriously. Usually the pro-Palestinian bias in these threads is palpable, and I think it might keep reasonable Israeli perspectives away. But when when you claim that Palestinians aren't actually being displaced from their homes, and then when someone provides direct evidence refuting this assertion you first pull the conspiracy theory card, then when that's refuted dismiss it out of hand, your position becomes untenable. Worst of all, from an argumentative point of view it makes you appear unreasonable.

Also, your statement "Just let them kill us because they are poor?" is offensive. You do realize that Israelis have killed considerably more Palestinians than Palestinians have killed Israelis right? Or do you deny this too?

So I'm sorry but you've lost the argument. Not because you are factually wrong (and to a large extent you are), but because you've resorted to unreasonableness and when you resort to unreasonableness the discussion leads to emotion over logic. And emotionally, the majority of the people think that what Israel does to Palestine is inhumane and barbaric. So if your goal was to present the Israeli perspective you've failed grandly because I can't imagine you've done anything but to solidify the notion that the Israeli government engages in butchery.
 

Costia

Member
Ok, so you're actually a reasonable person. I do agree on many of the points that you make: even from a purely strategic point of view, the situation is indeed an unparalleled clusterfuck that even the most well-meaning politicians would struggle to negotiate out of. and I can understand how the constant threat of being hit by attacks yourself will desensitize anyone for the plight of the opposite side- so I don't blame you for your stance.

I really do wonder though: is there any significant political movement in israeli politics that pushes for removing the settlements and opposes the influence of the orthodox extremists living there?
Because as long as you all don't keep your religious extremists in check, it's gonna be hard to convince the others to do the same.
SHAS or ש"ס which are israel's religious party are currently n the opposition and not the government. And overall the jewish religious extremists are hated here for other reasons, for example:
they control the marriage institution and force people to do the jewish marriage ceremony. The current "workaround" is to get married abroad and the state of israel is "forced" to acknowledge those papers.
there are a few laws that are really had to undo mainly regarding the saturday and kosher food
Most of them don't serve in the army and then go studying torah at the government's expense so they are viewed as "leeches"
Most people understand that the settlements will have to be removed and that there is no point of building more, but nobody actually wants to do that. It would be political suicide. Arik sharon managed to do it in gaza but he had to trick/cheat to do that and was quite hated afterwards.
 
I was responding to this specific question that you asked:

I wasn't talking about any justifications at all. All I said is that if you (you. not me. you) don't expect the arabs to honor UN decision - don't expect the israelis to honor them either.
The palestinians should have the same rights as any other person on earth, but on at the expense of Israel's (or specifically my) safety. Expecting Israel to follow UN decisions while the Hamas clearly doesn't is suicidal.
Um, you clearly were:
But the thing is the arabs and the palestinians didn't accept resolution 181, they started a war and tried to get the entire territory to themselves. They failed to do so and now want the same terms as before they tried to kill us all.... nope.
You clearly said Arabs did not accept UN resolution, ergo Israel has carte blanche to ignore everything UN does. You are justifying colonialism because Arabs rejected a highly biased, one-sided, corrupt piece of resolution created by armies of rich and powerful at the expense of helpless. All, for the glory of a nation that existed in a bible 3000 years ago.
 

Costia

Member
At first, I was willing to take you seriously. Usually the pro-Palestinian bias in these threads is palpable, and I think it might keep reasonable Israeli perspectives away. But when when you claim that Palestinians aren't actually being displaced from their homes, and then when someone provides direct evidence refuting this assertion you first pull the conspiracy theory card, then when that's refuted dismiss it out of hand, your position becomes untenable. Worst of all, from an argumentative point of view it makes you appear unreasonable.

Also, your statement "Just let them kill us because they are poor?" is offensive. You do realize that Israelis have killed considerably more Palestinians than Palestinians have killed Israelis right? Or do you deny this too?

So I'm sorry but you've lost the argument. Not because you are factually wrong (and to a large extent you are), but because you've resorted to unreasonableness and when you resort to unreasonableness the discussion leads to emotion over logic. And emotionally, the majority of the people think that what Israel does to Palestine is inhumane and barbaric. So if your goal was to present the Israeli perspective you've failed grandly because I can't imagine you've done anything but to solidify the notion that the Israeli government engages in butchery.

Please, just come and live here for a year. I am sure you will change your mind.
Arabs have killed more jews than vice versa. Palestinians is just a name for a specific group that is living here.
I didn't say palestinians were never displaced. You claimed specifically that israeli settlements displace palestinians from their homes, which i have shown you to be false. Everything else you wrote is your own theories about what you think that my opinion is.
Gratz you "won".
 

Roastbeef

Banned
SHAS or ש"ס which are israel's religious party are currently n the opposition and not the government. And overall the jewish religious extremists are hated here for other reasons, for example:
they control the marriage institution and force people to do the jewish marriage ceremony. The current "workaround" is to get married abroad and the state of israel is "forced" to acknowledge those papers.
there are a few laws that are really had to undo mainly regarding the saturday and kosher food
Most of them don't serve in the army and then go studying torah at the government's expense so they are viewed as "leeches"
Most people understand that the settlements will have to be removed and that there is no point of building more, but nobody actually wants to do that. It would be political suicide. Arik sharon managed to do it in gaza but he had to trick/cheat to do that and was quite hated afterwards.

So everyone hates the orthodox, they're a minority and they aren't even rich (they live on welfare)... How can they hold so much political power?
As before, this is a serious question- I just can't wrap my head around the situation
 

Costia

Member
Um, you clearly were:

You clearly said Arabs did not accept UN resolution, ergo Israel has carte blanche to ignore everything UN does. You are justifying colonialism because Arabs rejected a highly biased, one-sided, corrupt piece of resolution created by armies of rich and powerful at the expense of helpless. All, for the glory of a nation that existed in a bible 3000 years ago.

No, you have taken your conclusions way too far.
I said they since they refused the UN offer shouldn't expect to get the same terms. I didn't say they shouldn't get any terms or rights at all.
They should have their own country. Although not official they currently have 2: a palestinian Fatah government in the west bank and a second Hamas leadership in gaza. Those 2 palestinian leaders were at war amongst themselves a few years ago, and currently still don't cooperate.
I have never mentioned the bible as a justification either. The reason for the creation of Israel is simple: the holocaust. Jews want to make sure it never happens again and the UN seemed to agree.
I really don't understand. Are you saying countries should or shouldn't follow UN regulations? Because so far it seems to me that you have double standards - i.e. the arabs shouldn't follow it because it is corrupt but everyone else should because something.
 

Costia

Member
So everyone hates the orthodox, they're a minority and they aren't even rich (they live on welfare)... How can they hold so much political power?
As before, this is a serious question- I just can't wrap my head around the situation

Because of the way the Israeli government is constructed.
There are 120 parliament members. Out of those a government is assembled - a group of 60+ members that have to agree on cooperating . The president decides who is going to assemble it based on how many member a specific party has.
So generally the situation is that there are 30-40 left wing members and about the same right-wing members. about 10 arab parties members and around 10-15 religious party members.
The religious party members will join any government that will promise not to change the religious rules.
So since 60 members are required, the party that will agree to the religious party's demands would be in the government. (and th other party would be in the "opposition", basically unable to pass any laws since they don't have a majority)
This time it was a bit different due to a relatively big "center"-wing party that replaced the religious one.
 

Eknots

Member
Please, just come and live here for a year. I am sure you will change your mind.
Arabs have killed more jews than vice versa. Palestinians is just a name for a specific group that is living here.
I didn't say palestinians were never displaced. You claimed specifically that israeli settlements displace palestinians from their homes, which i have shown you to be false. Everything else you wrote is your own theories about what you think that my opinion is.
Gratz you "won".

If we're saying palenstinians all fall under arabs then I guess jews do too. So arabs have been killing arabs because apparently palestinians, lebanese, syrians, and everyone else in the ME is the exact same so I guess jews are arabs as well."
Or we can be logical and separate them and look at the data that shows isreal has killed more palestinians than vice-versa at a pretty alarming ratio.
 
If we're saying palenstinians all fall under arabs then I guess jews do too. So arabs have been killing arabs because apparently palestinians, lebanese, syrians, and everyone else in the ME is the exact same so I guess jews are arabs as well.

No reason for Israel not to be allowed to join the Arab League then.
 

Costia

Member
If we're saying palenstinians all fall under arabs then I guess jews do too. So arabs have been killing arabs because apparently palestinians, lebanese, syrians, and everyone else in the ME is the exact same so I guess jews are arabs as well.

Not quite, jews don't fall under arabs. the first arab (according to the bible) was the brother of the first israeli.
So jews aren't arabs. Jews are arab's brothers.
But really, there is actually something that i agree with in what you are saying. It doesn't matter if they are jews arabs or whatever, wars are bad no matter who fights in them.
A lot of Israeli's aren't even jews anyway.
The situation here is bad for both sides (quite a bit worse for the palestnians), but there is no magic solution.
 
No, you have taken your conclusions way too far.
I said they since they refused the UN offer shouldn't expect to get the same terms. I didn't say they shouldn't get any terms or rights at all.
They should have their own country. Although not official they currently have 2: a palestinian Fatah government in the west bank and a second Hamas leadership in gaza. Those 2 palestinian leaders were at war amongst themselves a few years ago, and currently still don't cooperate.
I have never mentioned the bible as a justification either. The reason for the creation of Israel is simple: the holocaust. Jews want to make sure it never happens again and the UN seemed to agree.
I really don't understand. Are you saying countries should or shouldn't follow UN regulations? Because so far it seems to me that you have double standards - i.e. the arabs shouldn't follow it because it is corrupt but everyone else should because something.
Israel's creation in the middle-east was being dreamt up by Zionists long before holocaust. Even if the holocaust was the reason for creating Israel, why were Arabs chosen by the overlords to forcibly carry the burden of Europe's sins? When the resolution 181 passed, UN was a joke. Resolution 181 is a joke. Read my post. But today, UN is not as much. It has come a long way towards normalcy since then due to rising global trade, opening up of borders and fall of communism. It behooves not just Israel, but also everyone to follow UN resolutions today. Even if we completely ignore UN, Israel cannot systematically clean out the Palestinians from the occupied territories. They have no moral standing.
 

Ember128

Member
Please, just come and live here for a year. I am sure you will change your mind.
Arabs have killed more jews than vice versa. Palestinians is just a name for a specific group that is living here.
I didn't say palestinians were never displaced. You claimed specifically that israeli settlements displace palestinians from their homes, which i have shown you to be false. Everything else you wrote is your own theories about what you think that my opinion is.
Gratz you "won".
I personally would be happy to visit Israel and The West Bank next chance I get.

The question I might ask, is what would be able to be done so that all parties involved have the best possible quality of life?
 

Costia

Member
Israel's creation in the middle-east was being dreamt up by Zionists long before holocaust. Even if the holocaust was the reason for creating Israel, why were Arabs chosen by the overlords to forcibly carry the burden of Europe's sins? When the resolution 181 passed, UN was a joke. Resolution 181 is a joke. Read my post. But today, UN is not as much. It has come a long way towards normalcy since then due to rising global trade, opening up of borders and fall of communism. It behooves not just Israel, but also everyone to follow UN resolutions today. Even if we completely ignore UN, Israel cannot systematically clean out the Palestinians from the occupied territories. They have no moral standing.

So basically when the UN was in Israel's favor you consider it a joke, and when it is in the arabs favor it suddenly becomes serious and important? OK.
What do you refer to as the "occupied territories"? gaza+west bank or entire Israel.

And just to add some oil to the fire, let me just mention another region of israel: The golan heights. Though you don't hear much about it in the news. As far as i am aware nobody there is being oppressed, although legally they are in the same position as the west bank and gaza. The difference is the arabs at the golan heights aren't actively trying to kill us, so they are living peacefully alongside israel and even have Israeli (those who wanted got citizenship, others got a resident status) + syrian/lebanon passports and are allowed to cross the israeli-lebanon/sirian border (which creates a drug trafficking problem , but thats for a different thread).
There were talks between israel and sirya about returning the golan back, but in the current situation i don't think any of the golan residents would actualy like that.
 

Costia

Member
I personally would be happy to visit Israel and The West Bank next chance I get.

The question I might ask, is what would be able to be done so that all parties involved have the best possible quality of life?

Good question. If you have an answer you would probably get a peace nobel prize, or a whole bunch of them, since there were already quite a few people who got a peace nobel prize for their work in the middle east, and the situation is still far from being peaceful.
That's kinda what happened with Obama, he was a bit naive. He had some good ideas, he thought he had a solution, but the reality was a lot more complicated than he anticipated.
So, it's a very hard problem/question. I dont have any answers.

I would also recommend you to stay away from the west bank and gaza unless you have a reproter's/media tag. While most of the population there probably won't care, there are quite a few extreme islamic groups there. And even journalists aren't safe.
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/04/14/gaza.italian.kidnapped/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Johnston
 
Why the fuck does it matter if an authoritarian regime did the same thing? Seriously I don't get this mindset that if your "enemies" do it it's okay. Israel is a first world country. It is suppose to lead the example in the Middle East. Instead it falls into many traps that many of the other countries do. Should the United States use tear gas on protestors because its enemies do? Should it be killing journalists left and right because Russia does? No. Hell I see many people in who come into these threads defending Israel who lost their shit over Chris Christie closing a bridge. So why the double standard here? It doesn't matter what other countries did or even are doing, said country is suppose to be bigger than that.

Nelson Mandela was widely celebrated because he did his absolute best to reunite his country and stop racial tensions on all sides. You can bet your ass if he created policies to discriminate against the whites he would be viewed very differently. Nobody would be going "So what? Do you know what the whites did to the blacks during their reign?" It doesn't matter. Discrimination isn't always led for no reason, there is usually history behind it. The point is to be above that and it is pretty pathetic that Israel, one of the richest countries in the world, stands behind the cover of technically being "better" than authoritarian 3rd world hell holes.
 

Slayer-33

Liverpool-2
r

Wow that's a fucking sad picture.

Jesus
 

NEO0MJ

Member
Pretty sad new, but what can be done about it? Israel gonna always be Israel, the country run by one of the most hypocritical and savage modern governments.

And it's funny how like always there's a defense force for everything.
 

Pinbot

Banned
I don't condone Israel's behaviour. I wouldn't call it genocide. Apartheid, yes. It's a disgrace.

However, if the Palestinians were the ones in power, then you would see genocide. We can't forget that the Arab nations want to kill all the Jews. Israel is defending herself, but she has gone about it in the wrong way. A very wrong way. But they are under fire every day from surrounding Arab nations.

It's easy to say fuck Israel, but that is what Hamas and the like want you to say.
 
That Wikipedia article is pretty well referenced. Not just Jews, but the flight of Christians from Middle Eastern countries since the early 20th century is a major issue as well. The Middle East was a lot more diverse 100 years ago than it is now. It's really a shame in my opinion.

I think the loss of diversity is part of the reason the area has such problem contemporaneously. It's at least partially responsible for the rise of Islamic fundamentalism*. Basically, my thesis is that diversity keeps different groups in check, and the loss of diversity allows the remaining group to harden (particularly if it has money and control of government). IMO, it's diversity keeping the US secular not the constitution.


*As is continued European and American imperialism over the century.

Can you then explain why Europe hasn't gone to shit ? Wasn't so diverse over here 30-40 years ago.

OT though:

All in all I think that the foundation for the creation of the State of Israel is illegitimate. The Jews have never had any right to the land of Palestine and all deals to try to steal land was illegitimate and should be rightfully declined. No one has a right to come, steal your land and kick you out of your own home.

The Zionist ideology is the biggest enemy and obstacle for peace in the region. It is in its core a racist, and arrogant ideology and way of thought.

Racist for it's thought of Jews as being more worth or higher placed than other people.

Arrogant for it's thought that the Jews has a right to steal land for random reasons.

Even in the works of the father of Zionism, Theodor Herzl, there was no mention of what should have happened with the native people of the lands they sought to steal, a very telling fact.

EDIT:
However, if the Palestinians were the ones in power, then you would see genocide. We can't forget that the Arab nations want to kill all the Jews. Israel is defending herself, but she has gone about it in the wrong way. A very wrong way. But they are under fire every day from surrounding Arab nations.

Egypt has a peace-deal with Israel. Syria hasn't fired a shot in Israel for 50+ years.
 

Pinbot

Banned
Sorry Amjad, I may have worded it strongly but I still feel that if the tables were turned the situation would be very similar. The conflict has no simple answer or explanation.
 
Sorry Amjad, I may have worded it strongly but I still feel that if the tables were turned the situation would be very similar. The conflict has no simple answer or explanation.

No if the tables were turned the situation wouldn't have been similar.

Jews, Muslims and Christians were living relatively peacefully together before the advent of Zionism and it's racist teachings. It was only after the stealing of land that the dislike for Jews rose in the ME.

Anti-semitism originates from Europe not from the Middle East.

EDIT: I also apologize for my aggresive wording in the last post. I always get caught up in my feelings when discussing Palestine/Israel.
 

Pinbot

Banned
Whatevz. I'm not gonna write any more about an unsolvable problem.

But I can't believe you think they Jews would be safe in the Middle East if they relaxed. Sad.

I'm out of here though.

Edit: yeah, no worries. Tempers do flare when it comes to this issue :)
 

Sub_Level

wants to fuck an Asian grill.
What threat do these settlements pose against Israel? Close enough to fire rockets from? Hamas presence?
 
I think my first comments in this thread might have been an overreaction and based on emotion. Kudos to Costia for providing a balanced perspective which I pretty much agree with 100% (I hate the settlements, I hate the fact that extremists have too much power in government, etc etc.)

But I also take issue with stuff like this post:

No if the tables were turned the situation wouldn't have been similar.

Jews, Muslims and Christians were living relatively peacefully together before the advent of Zionism and it's racist teachings. It was only after the stealing of land that the dislike for Jews rose in the ME.
This is untrue. Firstly, the Zionist boogyman you are fighting doesn't exist. Zionism means the right for Jews to have self-determination. The only reason there is a word for Jewish determination and perhaps not other types of self-determination is because for thousands of years Jews lacked self-determination and a movement started to change that. I believe equally in Palestinian self-determination, doesn't make me any less of a Zionist and it certainly doesn't make me a racist.

Furthermore, the idea that Muslims had no issue with Jews and Christians prior to Israel's creation is untrue. At best, you could say there were periods of history where Muslim countries tolerated Jews and Christians, just giving them a different set of laws under Dhimmi status, paying taxes etc. At worst, you could point at the numerous massacres and the cooperation with Adolf Hitler as evidence that hatred has existed far longer than Israel has.

Anti-semitism originates from Europe not from the Middle East.
Anti-semitism has existed for almost as long as Jews have existed. And it has existed in numerous forms with numerous motivations. Of course not all Arabs want to kill Jews (glad to see the person who suggested so has been banned) but anti-semitism is a huge problem in the Arab and wider Muslim world - this is absolutely undeniable. Of course, prejudice against Muslims in Israel and sometimes in the far-right diaspora exists too, but not on the same scale (state-sanctioned indoctrination of children, not letting Jews into the country, accepting the Elders of Zion as non-fiction).

I don't blame people for accusing me of engaging in "whataboutery". But I think you can see my point when this thread is already 4-5 times longer than the thread last week about Palestinians eating cats in Syria, that crimes committed by Israel against the Palestinians are somehow seen as much worse - perhaps because so many in the West hold the Jews to a higher standard because they suffered (you should know better, millions of you were murdered!) while we just shake our heads at the Arab world as if they are children who don't know any better. I also feel my point is kinda reinforced when I see other posters basically implying Israel should be wiped out...
 

Zaph

Member
Israel isn't stupid. They know eventually a UN resolution or something similar will pass and they'll have to enter good-faith peace negotiations, not these mickey-mouse 'peace talks' they're forced into every once in a while when they need to refresh the illusion of progress.

When that day comes, the old expression "possession is nine-tenths of the law" will have never been more meaningful. The more occupied lands Israel has in their possession to negotiate back, the less they'll have to give up of what they really want.
 

Chichikov

Member
Arabs have killed more jews than vice versa.
That is not close to being true.

I didn't say palestinians were never displaced. You claimed specifically that israeli settlements displace palestinians from their homes, which i have shown you to be false.
This is false as well, now it's true, most of the settlements are built on farm or grazing land, there were definitely cases where Palestinians were displaced from there home for settlements, I know first hand of Maale Adumim and Hebron,
 

Roastbeef

Banned
I don't blame people for accusing me of engaging in "whataboutery". But I think you can see my point when this thread is already 4-5 times longer than the thread last week about Palestinians eating cats in Syria, that crimes committed by Israel against the Palestinians are somehow seen as much worse - perhaps because so many in the West hold the Jews to a higher standard because they suffered (you should know better, millions of you were murdered!) while we just shake our heads at the Arab world as if they are children who don't know any better. I also feel my point is kinda reinforced when I see other posters basically implying Israel should be wiped out...

Ok, I'll say it again, so maybethis time you can understand:
You are comparing what happens to the civilian victims of the bloodiest war of this decade - they die of famine because neither of the parties at war cares about them enough to agree on a cease-fire- to what happens to civilians in the middle of peace talks. If the best way for you to defend Israel's actions is really by comparing them to living/dying conditions in an open war, that makes your argument pretty weak.
Also, do you really think people are holding Israel to a higher standard for the reasons you mentioned? The fact that the country receives unflinching economical, military and moral support from the West despite standing accused of dozens of war crimes (I.e. white phosphorus, to name one) whereas Syria's regime is being (rightfully) universally condemned and threatened with war over one alleged war crime, couldn't possibly be a reason for that higher standard, right?
 
This is untrue. Firstly, the Zionist boogyman you are fighting doesn't exist. Zionism means the right for Jews to have self-determination. The only reason there is a word for Jewish determination and perhaps not other types of self-determination is because for thousands of years Jews lacked self-determination and a movement started to change that. I believe equally in Palestinian self-determination, doesn't make me any less of a Zionist and it certainly doesn't make me a racist.

Zionism is in it's core racist and uncaring of other than European Jews. You know what happened to the asian Jews who immigrated to Israel after the foundation of the State...They were seen as practicing a wrong way of being Jewish. You see today what is done against asylum seekers.. Called infiltrators.

As I wrote before, in no text of the early Jewish fathers of Zionism, were there a discussion of what should have happened to the native people of the lands that the Zionist sought to rob.

Argentina, Uganda, Palestine. The only goal was to rob, never granting a single thought to the native people of these lands who had lived there for decades or even centuries.

A very teling fact about the Zionist ideology.

The right for self-determination should not come at the cost of another people. Again an egoistical trait of the Zionist ideology.

Israel will hopefully not be able to continue their policy unhindered like this.


EDIT: Scratch that, they will be able to continue as long as they will.

Channel 10: Obama refused to confront Netanyahu; Kerry proposal emptied of content

In its Sunday evening news broadcast, Israel’s Channel 10 reported on one reason for the diminishing ambitiousness of an American final-status framework proposal, which Washington expects to present to Israel and the Palestinian Authority in the coming weeks.

According to senior reported Raviv Druker, President Obama decided not to let Kerry confront Jerusalem, thus forcing his secretary of state to present a vague paper that both parties can live with, and to even allow them to submit their reservations to the American proposal.

“The [Kerry] agreement was almost completely emptied of content,” Druker reported.

Right now, it seems that the goal of the American proposal will be only to allow negotiations to continue. Since Israel will not be required to make any concessions and the paper won’t include clear reference to the status of East Jerusalem as the future Palestinian capital, Druker estimates that, “a political drama in Israel will be avoided.” In other words, the settlers will be able to stay in Netanyahu’s government even after it endorses the American proposal.

This reports seems in line with the administration’s policy over the Palestinian issue since Obama’s 2010 confrontation with Netanyahu. I believe that the president estimates there isn’t much to be gained politically from the peace process, while there is a lot to be lost in another battle with Jerusalem and its supporters on Capitol Hill. So he is placing his political chips elsewhere (Iran, for example).

The diplomatic process has rescued Netanyahu from a touchy political bind – practically saving his coalition by allowing Tzipi Livni and Yair Lapid to stay in the government. Yet as I wrote yesterday, without a confrontation with Jerusalem and an ensuing political crisis in Israel, the current trends on the ground – occupation and colonization – will likely continue. What remains to be seen is how long will the Palestinians play along, and whether they’ll be blamed yet again “for missing an opportunity.”
 
Zionism is in it's core racist and uncaring of other than European Jews. You know what happened to the asian Jews who immigrated to Israel after the foundation of the State...They were seen as practicing a wrong way of being Jewish. You see today what is done against asylum seekers.. Called infiltrators.
Who are you to say what Zionism is? You have no more right to redefine for your agenda than say, an Islamophobe has to define Islam on the basis of what a few Muslim crackpots do in the name of their faith, or based on the state of countries that practice Shariah. It is possible to be Zionist and also a racist xenophobe. Being Zionist does NOT make you racist. A huge proportion of Israelis hate their current government, campaign against racism and want to end the occupation etc etc. But they are still Zionists by virtue of the fact that they don't want to see their own country destroyed. Nor does being a Zionist mean you follow the same ideology as any particular person who in history called himself or herself a Zionist. Zionists do not follow a big book of Zinoism that tells them how to act.

Zionism to me is the opposite of racism. It is the idea that Jews deserve the same as, and no more than, everyone else. They deserve self-determination in a homeland. I believe in the exact same thing for Palestinians (something that other Arabs never believed in until about 60 years ago). And I believe in the same for other groups who throughout history have been disenfranchised. I believe this is necessary until the time we live in a utopian society where everybody respects the rights of others and in turn does not have to live in fear. That certainly isn't the world we live in today.
 

SKINNER!

Banned
There were talks between israel and sirya about returning the golan back, but in the current situation i don't think any of the golan residents would actualy like that.

"We must make Syria recognise that just as it relinquished its dream of a greater Syria that controls Lebanon ... it will have to relinquish its ultimate demand regarding the Golan Heights" - Avigdor Lieberman
 
Ok, I'll say it again, so maybethis time you can understand:
You are comparing what happens to the civilian victims of the bloodiest war of this decade - they die of famine because neither of the parties at war cares about them enough to agree on a cease-fire- to what happens to civilians in the middle of peace talks. If the best way for you to defend Israel's actions is really by comparing them to living/dying conditions in an open war, that makes your argument pretty weak.
Also, do you really think people are holding Israel to a higher standard for the reasons you mentioned? The fact that the country receives unflinching economical, military and moral support from the West despite standing accused of dozens of war crimes (I.e. white phosphorus, to name one) whereas Syria's regime is being (rightfully) universally condemned and threatened with war over one alleged war crime, couldn't possibly be a reason for that higher standard, right?
1 simple question. Why are Palestinians still living in refugee camps in Arab countries after multiple generations? Why haven't they been given rights and citizenship in their host nations until such a time that they can return to their land?

P.S, While I agree that white phosphorous should not be used anywhere near civilians when there are alternatives, it is not considered a chemical weapon, its use was not considered illegal by the Goldstone report (which of course Goldstone later admitted was too biased against Israel anyway), and it has been used in most modern wars including the US-Iraq war. Not justifying its use but to mention it as if it elevates Israel's perceived evilness as being on the same level as the chemical attacks that killed thousands in Syria is dishonest at best.
 

Roastbeef

Banned
1 simple question. Why are Palestinians still living in refugee camps in Arab countries after multiple generations? Why haven't they been given rights and citizenship in their host nations until such a time that they can return to their land?
Because the people whorun those countries are, for the most part, a bunch of corrupt assholes who do not give a single fuck about human rights.
Also they might argue that giving them a permanent citizenship would equate to admitting defeat and giving up on the hope of returning to their land.

Now, you're not going to say that israeli (democratically elected) politicians are better than the Assad-family and their likes, and that we should expect their behavior to be the least bit more humane, right? After all that would mean applying higher standards to them, and we can't have that...
 
This is the most disgusting thing happening in our world today. I've discussed the subject way too often and i'm fed up to be honest. I can't believe people do nothing and act as if nothing is happening there when it's clear as day that shit is going nuts. Jew money and power can do a lot of bad... this is fucked up situation where people/countries are menaced to suck Israel's d**k in order to get what was promised to them... Israel should be called in everything bad they do but they've been called way too many times and nothing happened.

With that said, f**k Israel !
 
Because the people whorun those countries are, for the most part, a bunch of corrupt assholes who do not give a single fuck about human rights.
Also they might argue that giving them a permanent citizenship would equate to admitting defeat and giving up on the hope of returning to their land.

Now, you're not going to say that israeli (democratically elected) politicians are better than the Assad-family and their likes, and that we should expect their behavior to be the least bit more humane, right? After all that would mean applying higher standards to them, and we can't have that...
I'm not sure what you mean with your second point, but it is a simple fact that the 1 million+ Arabs in Israel enjoy equality and a higher quality of life than Palestinians anywhere else in the Middle East, and those in the West Bank which Israel controls, while facing hassle at checkpoints and occasionally horrible events like these demolitions, are still better off than the refugees treated as political pawns by these other countries (and we're not talking just about Syria). Again, I despise the Israeli politicians who allow this to happen, but I also point to the fact that there are Palestinians suffering even more elsewhere, and not just in the context of the Syrian civil war.
 
This is the most disgusting thing happening in our world today. I've discussed the subject way too often and i'm fed up to be honest. I can't believe people do nothing and act as if nothing is happening there when it's clear as day that shit is going nuts. Jew money and power can do a lot of bad... this is fucked up situation where people/countries are menaced to suck Israel's d**k in order to get what was promised to them... Israel should be called in everything bad they do but they've been called way too many times and nothing happened.

With that said, f**k Israel !
Ignoring the suggestion that this is somehow the "most disgusting thing happening in our world today", the bolded is grossly offensive and probably isn't in line with the TOS.
 

Prine

Banned
Reprehensible and cowardly, the continued pulverising of those people and then have the audacity to blame them for being angry. Disgusting.
 
Who are you to say what Zionism is? You have no more right to redefine for your agenda than say, an Islamophobe has to define Islam on the basis of what a few Muslim crackpots do in the name of their faith, or based on the state of countries that practice Shariah. It is possible to be Zionist and also a racist xenophobe. Being Zionist does NOT make you racist. A huge proportion of Israelis hate their current government, campaign against racism and want to end the occupation etc etc. But they are still Zionists by virtue of the fact that they don't want to see their own country destroyed. Nor does being a Zionist mean you follow the same ideology as any particular person who in history called himself or herself a Zionist. Zionists do not follow a big book of Zinoism that tells them how to act.

Zionism to me is the opposite of racism. It is the idea that Jews deserve the same as, and no more than, everyone else. They deserve self-determination in a homeland. I believe in the exact same thing for Palestinians (something that other Arabs never believed in until about 60 years ago). And I believe in the same for other groups who throughout history have been disenfranchised. I believe this is necessary until the time we live in a utopian society where everybody respects the rights of others and in turn does not have to live in fear. That certainly isn't the world we live in today.

I did not imply that you were racist. The fact lies in that the core and the creation of the ideology of Zionism lays upon the following traits: Arrogance believing in the superiority of the Jews, Racism in it's treatment of "deviating" jews and egoistical in it's plans for robbing other lands with no thought given to the indigenous people of these places.

I am not saying that Zionism has evolved maybe to something else, but that this is the foundation and core of the ideology.

The Jews don't have any right to any land in the world.

This is the facts. The Jews have no legitimate right to any land in the world. Therefore it is injustice in it's purest when the right to self-determination is forced on an innocent people.

Zionism is self-determination for a land, sounds noble. But at the cost of another people. An indefensible and illegal thing.

Palestine/Israel is injustice in it's purest form

EDIT: And Israel supporters seem to go around the same points at all times: Why are Palestinians still living in refugee camps ?

You try to fram it as there is any Arab Unity and that Arabs are one unit. This is a lie and a myth. Many Palestinians want to return to their land but are declined this because of the injustice done against them in the name of self-determination.
 

GSG Flash

Nobody ruins my family vacation but me...and maybe the boy!
1 simple question. Why are Palestinians still living in refugee camps in Arab countries after multiple generations? Why haven't they been given rights and citizenship in their host nations until such a time that they can return to their land?

Who says the majority of displaced Palestinians want to live anywhere other than their homeland? Israel put them in the position they're in right now in the first place, and you're attempting to pass that blame onto other nations, when Israel is at full fault for them being displaced in the first place.
 
I did not imply that you were racist. The fact lies in that the core and the creation of the ideology of Zionism lays upon the following traits: Arrogance believing in the superiority of the Jews, Racism in it's treatment of "deviating" jews and egoistical in it's plans for robbing other lands with no thought given to the indigenous people of these places.
The bolded sounds like racism to me. I have never met someone who calls themselves a Zionist yet believes that to be remotely true. Even if you manage to scrape together some Theodore Herzl quote that has that flavour, it wouldn't prove that such a concept is fundamental to Zionism. It ISN'T. The only thing that Zionists have in common is that belief in the right for self-determination that I keep repeating. And the vast majority of modern Zionists do NOT believe in Jewish superiority.

I don't believe you are willingly attempting to turn Zionism into some kind of great evil, but far too many people misrepresent what Zionism is or simply use it as a short-form for whatever they feel to be wrong with the Israeli state. Zionism is not about taking the rights or the lands of other people, it is not about Jews having greater worth than anybody else. Sure, some idiots try to justify their heinous actions in its name, but the same is true of every political ideology in human history.

This is the facts. The Jews have no legitimate right to any land in the world. Therefore it is injustice in it's purest when they force their so called right to self-determination on an innocent people.
Firstly, how is that a "fact"? Secondly, does any other group have any legitimate right to any land in the world?

Zionism is self-determination for a land, sounds noble. But at the cost of another people. An indefensible and illegal thing.

Palestine/Israel is injustice in it's purest form.
It does not need to be at the cost of another people. Since the founding of Israel there has always been the potential for a state in which Palestinians have self-determination. Of course the history is extremely messy and all sides have grievances. But there is no reason why Jews and Arabs can't some day forgive each other and live peacefully side-by-side, and there is no reason why Zionism should be a barrier.

Who says the majority of displaced Palestinians want to live anywhere other than their homeland? Israel put them in the position they're in right now in the first place, and you're attempting to pass that blame onto other nations, when Israel is at full fault for them being displaced in the first place.
Firstly, we are mostly talking about the children and grandchildren of those who left or fled during the creation of Israel. They are the ONLY group of people who are afforded refugee status by heritage according to the UN. Nobody else. But regardless of what the UN thinks, how many generations have to pass before they no longer have a claim to the land? Somewhere between what the Palestinians have now, and the Jews had prior to 1948 (ignoring the very real continued Jewish presence in those lands over the last 2 millenia?)

Secondly, you are right, many Arabs were forcibly displaced in the mess that was the creation of Israel. But a very large percentage left voluntarily: they sold the land, it wasn't taken from them, or they left because Arab countries told them they would be able to return as soon as Israel was crushed by their armies.So Israel doesn't have "full fault". And the hideous way that Arab countries often treat Palestinians cannot be blamed on Israel. Some, like Jordan, absorbed many of them and gave them rights. Others have not been so welcoming. They are living proof that the Arab leaders hate the Jews more than they care about the lives of Palestinians.
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
This is the most disgusting thing happening in our world today. I've discussed the subject way too often and i'm fed up to be honest. I can't believe people do nothing and act as if nothing is happening there when it's clear as day that shit is going nuts. Jew money and power can do a lot of bad... this is fucked up situation where people/countries are menaced to suck Israel's d**k in order to get what was promised to them... Israel should be called in everything bad they do but they've been called way too many times and nothing happened.

With that said, f**k Israel !

I'm sorry, "Jew money"?
 
The foundation of the State of Israel is injustice.

An injustice which resulted in a systematic expulsion of 700 thousand Palestinians, robbing them of home and land followed by decades of further injustice, killing and robbing even to this day.

To forgive this... It is impossible.

But a very large percentage left voluntarily: they sold the land

A lie. At mostly it was 6 percent of the Palestinians who sold their lands to the Jews. Do not try to paint history in your favour.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine#cite_note-Inc1943-11

By 1943, $560,000,000 was paid for nearly 400,000 acres, amounting to around 6% of the land.[11]
 
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