Iwata on third parties, hundreds of inquiries since GDC about Nintendo Web Framework

Infinite said:
I don't know why you're asking me that question. Someone posted a list of reason why devs avoided Nintendo hardware in the pass I simply say that those reasons are very shitty ones and what factor into the lack of third party support on the gamecube and probably the Wii
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Why do you find those reasons to be shitty?
 
JordanN said:
Well they have to make something that people are buying on the 360/PS3/PC in mass and I don't think Metroid and Zelda cut it (although they're a move in the right direction).
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People are buying a couple of franchises as studios continue to post massive numbers or collapse. Remember how many Call of Duty Modern Warfare clones popped up after its success? Know how many of those were successful?

Simply emulating another high selling franchise is a recipe for disaster.

pizzaroll said:
Uh, did you not read my post? I acknowledged that. The thing is, large-scale hardware purchasing makes it cheaper, not more expensive.

Economies of scale 101.
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You're failing to mention the development of the architecture to make a custom version of hardware to fit it within a console. If the competition is selling at a loss of $400-500, how will Nintendo somehow make it for even cheaper than that?

Hardware architecture 101.
 
Wait are people still arguing whether the system is comparable to PS360? It absolutely is, maybe if Nintendo ditched the fucking Espresso architecture from the Wii they wouldn't be in this mess. The GPU in the thing is a decent bump above PS360, but they fucking hamstrung the console with that fucking CPU. The thing only draws 45 watts, Nintendo was putting their priorities on all the wrong things. The GamePad was a mistake, a costly one too that is causing them to take a loss on console hardware for the first time. Them taking a loss pretty much destroys any chance of a price drop this year as well.

The Wii-U just doesn't offer enough value to warrant purchase at it's current price point. It needs fucking games and will continue to sell abysmally till it does.

And just lol at Iwata saying developers will regret not supporting the Wii-U. That just makes me roll my eyes.

tumblr_mg2p2rVdZO1rkod5mo1_500.gif
 
Daingurse said:
Wait are people still arguing whether the system is comparable to PS360? It absolutely is, maybe if Nintendo ditched the fucking Espresso architecture from the Wii they wouldn't be in this mess. The GPU in the thing is a decent bump above PS360, but they fucking hamstrung the console with that fucking CPU. The thing only draws 45 watts, Nintendo was putting their priorities on all the wrong things. The GamePad was a mistake, a costly one too that is causing them to take a loss on console hardware for the first time. Them taking a loss pretty much destroys any chance of a price drop this year as well.

The Wii-U just doesn't offer enough value to warrant purchase at it's current price point. It needs fucking games and will continue to sell abysmally till it does.
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Low wattage isn't a bad priority.

Doing it with an architecture as notoriously inefficient as PowerPC was dumber than dogshit, though.
Chindogg said:
You're failing to mention the development of the architecture to make a custom version of hardware to fit it within a console. If the competition is selling at a loss of $400-500, how will Nintendo somehow make it for even cheaper than that?

Hardware architecture 101.
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That's called a sunk cost, it doesn't factor in. Nintendo has spent several billion on ~something~ (ie, Wii U) in the past year as well.
 
Chindogg said:
People are buying a couple of franchises as studios continue to post massive numbers or collapse. Remember how many Call of Duty Modern Warfare clones popped up after its success? Know how many of those were successful?

Simply emulating another high selling franchise is a recipe for disaster.
Click to expand...

I like how you're avoiding those posts that state Nintendo doesn't have to release equally powerful hardware just comparable hardware. That the Wii U had the chance to be the PS2 of this generation. In fact many people before it's release were actually arguing the Wii U would be exactly that, since it would be cheaper to develop for. From what I recall, these same folks were expecting the PS4 to be significantly less powerful than it turned out to be and the same with whatever the Xbox will put out.

Nintendo fucked up. Nintendo admits it. The gamepad was suppose to be what distinguished it from the competition and draw in the buyers. It isn't doing that. At the same time the lack of power is also turning off third parties. The 360/PS3 has a 150 million install base so it's no surprise that third parties are just going to do put the game on those platforms. The PS4/Xbox 3 will be SIGNIFICANTLY more powerful than the Wii U. The Wii U is the third leg. It's low install base is keeping it from getting many games the PS3/360 are getting and it's weak power is causing it to miss many games the PS4/Xbox 3 will get.

Nintendo fucked up.
 
Chindogg said:
People are buying a couple of franchises as studios continue to post massive numbers or collapse. Remember how many Call of Duty Modern Warfare clones popped up after its success? Know how many of those were successful?

Simply emulating another high selling franchise is a recipe for disaster.
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I'm just speaking from a marketing perspective. Make the games dudebros crave. Failure is just one of the risks involved.
 
pizzaroll said:
Low wattage isn't a bad priority.

Doing it with an architecture as notoriously inefficient as PowerPC was dumber than dogshit, though.
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Yeah low wattage isn't an inherently bad thing, I'll agree with that. But I think Nintendo placed too much focus on it. It just shows that they really didn't listen to developers, otherwise the hardware wouldn't be the way it is. It is catered to Nintendo's needs.
 
ClovingWestbrook said:
Why do you find those reasons to be shitty?
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I don't think devs avoided the gamecube because of the exterior of the console, the disc were small, and the button arrangement for its controller. It's "Lol who gonna develop games for a purple console with a handle that has tiny disc?" that sounds ridiculous.
 
Infinite said:
I don't think devs avoided the gamecube because of the exterior of the console, the disc were small, and the button arrangement for its controller.
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I agree. Though I will add that third parties were most likely not happy with the treatment they received from Nintendo before that. With how demanding and dictatorial Nintendo was.
 
ClovingWestbrook said:
I agree. Though I will add that third parties were most likely not happy with the treatment they received from Nintendo before that. With how demanding and dictatorial Nintendo was.
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Before that? How about during the GameCube's lifespan? Howard Lincoln was all like, "It is a privilege to make a game for our platform, so we get a bigger revenue share from your game."
 
Daingurse said:
Yeah low wattage isn't an inherently bad thing, I'll agree with that. But I think Nintendo placed too much focus on it. It just shows that they really didn't listen to developers, otherwise the hardware wouldn't be the way it is. It is catered to Nintendo's needs.
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For reference, the APU used in the PS4 will also be really low wattage as well. Not sure of the exact number though.
 
serplux said:
Before that? How about during the GameCube's lifespan? Howard Lincoln was all like, "It is a privilege to make a game for our platform, so we get a bigger revenue share for your game."
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Ofcourse. Basically it wasn't until THIS gen that Nintendo started being more open and showing a bit of humility. And guess what, THEY'RE GETTING MORE INDIES. Even big publishers came out and said Nintendo made an effort to become more open. Which leads me to my point that the only thing really separating the Wii U from the competition is the lack of power.
 
ClovingWestbrook said:
I like how you're avoiding those posts that state Nintendo doesn't have to release equally powerful hardware just comparable hardware. That the Wii U had the chance to be the PS2 of this generation. In fact many people before it's release were actually arguing the Wii U would be exactly that, since it would be cheaper to develop for. From what I recall, these same folks were expecting the PS4 to be significantly less powerful than it turned out to be and the same with whatever the Xbox will put out.

Nintendo fucked up. Nintendo admits it. The gamepad was suppose to be what distinguished it from the competition and draw in the buyers. It isn't doing that. At the same time the lack of power is also turning off third parties. The 360/PS3 has a 150 million install base so it's no surprise that third parties are just going to do put the game on those platforms. The PS4/Xbox 3 will be SIGNIFICANTLY more powerful than the Wii U. The Wii U is the third leg. It's low install base is keeping it from getting many games the PS3/360 are getting and it's weak power is causing it to miss many games the PS4/Xbox 3 will get.

Nintendo fucked up.
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Wait, you're bringing up PS2 then saying Wii U isn't that hardware wise? Gamecube and Xbox 1 shit all over it in specs. I'm not avoiding the posts because hardware-wise it is somewhat comparable. Look at NFS MW U and Trine 2. Beautiful games that the developers have already said wouldn't be possible on 360/PS3.

Everyone knows Nintendo fucked up. That's a given which I've mentioned several times. But saying its just the hardware is so obtuse its laughable. Its all about failing to market and showing people (devs and consumers) why the Wii U is a solid platform. Now they're doing whatever they can to turn it around.

We're on the same page here about the state of the Wii U, we just vastly disagree with the reasons behind that state.
 
Chindogg said:
Wait, you're bringing up PS2 then saying Wii U isn't that hardware wise? Gamecube and Xbox 1 shit all over it in specs. I'm not avoiding the posts because hardware-wise it is somewhat comparable. Look at NFS MW U and Trine 2. Beautiful games that the developers have already said wouldn't be possible on 360/PS3.

Everyone knows Nintendo fucked up. That's a given which I've mentioned several times. But saying its just the hardware is so obtuse its laughable. Its all about failing to market and showing people (devs and consumers) why the Wii U is a solid platform. Now they're doing whatever they can to turn it around.

We're on the same page here about the state of the Wii U, we just vastly disagree with the reasons behind that state.
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PS2 was closer to the Xbox/GC than the Wii U will be to the PS4/Xbox 3. That is my point.
If the Wii U were as close to it's competition in terms of power as the PS2 was to it's competition, I'm arguing it would be in better shape. The gamepad just wasn't a smart move in terms of drawing in the buyers.
 
ClovingWestbrook said:
Ofcourse. Basically it wasn't until THIS gen that Nintendo started being more open and showing a bit of humility. And guess what, THEY'RE GETTING MORE INDIES. Even big publishers came out and said Nintendo made an effort to become more open. Which leads me to my point that the only thing really separating the Wii U from the competition is the lack of power.
Click to expand...

Vita is getting more indie support at this point (that should tell you something) and third parties are not very enthusiastic about this whole Wii U situation.

Perhaps nintendo is not trying hard enough.
 
kuroshiki said:
Vita is getting more indie support at this point (that should tell you something) and third parties are not very enthusiastic about this whole Wii U situation.

Perhaps nintendo is not trying hard enough.
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No it isn't. It's getting different indie games than what Nintendo's getting.
 
kuroshiki said:
Vita is getting more indie support at this point (that should tell you something) and third parties are not very enthusiastic about this whole Wii U situation.

Perhaps nintendo is not trying hard enough.
Click to expand...

The Vita is getting more indie support due to how easy it is to port a game from the PS3 to the Vita. Nintendo is getting some nice indies. Many Indies have come out and have said that Nintendo is much easier to work with now than they were with the Wii.
 
It's amazing to see the denial of hardware power around here. It always mattered.

There's a reason why Sony made the PS4 specs so high. It's to satisfy gamers and developers.

If not, why not just stick to the PS3? They could save millions but here they are, investing in it anyway.
 
ClovingWestbrook said:
PS2 was closer to the Xbox/GC than the Wii U will be to the PS4/Xbox 3. That is my point.
If the Wii U were as close to it's competition in terms of power as the PS2 was to it's competition, I'm arguing it would be in better shape. The gamepad just wasn't a smart move in terms of drawing in the buyers.
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Exactly, no way in hell is the Wii-U closer to the PS4/Durango than the PS360. If the console was comparable to next gen we'd be getting fucking definitive version ports running at fucking 1080p/60fps easy. By making the hardware so awkward Nintendo made the box less appealing to 3rd parties. If the hardware was better ports could simply be brute forced and would easily be better than the PS360 versions.
 
Chindogg said:
Wait, you're bringing up PS2 then saying Wii U isn't that hardware wise? Gamecube and Xbox 1 shit all over it in specs. I'm not avoiding the posts because hardware-wise it is somewhat comparable. Look at NFS MW U and Trine 2. Beautiful games that the developers have already said wouldn't be possible on 360/PS3.

Everyone knows Nintendo fucked up. That's a given which I've mentioned several times. But saying its just the hardware is so obtuse its laughable. Its all about failing to market and showing people (devs and consumers) why the Wii U is a solid platform. Now they're doing whatever they can to turn it around.

We're on the same page here about the state of the Wii U, we just vastly disagree with the reasons behind that state.
Click to expand...
PlayStation 2 wasn't as weak compared to its competition as Wii U will be, if I'm not mistaken. And it was a great step up from the original PlayStation as well. Wii U, on the other hand, is visually comparable to Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3.

Many things are holding Nintendo back this generation. Hardware is absolutely one of the important factors. I'd say investing in the GamePad is another. Marketing needs to be addressed as well.
 
ClovingWestbrook said:
PS2 was closer to the Xbox/GC than the Wii U will be to the PS4/Xbox 3. That is my point.
If the Wii U were as close to it's competition in terms of power as the PS2 was to it's competition, I'm arguing it would be in better shape. The gamepad just wasn't a smart move in terms of drawing in the buyers.
Click to expand...

If that's your point, then that point would be wrong. PS2 was barely ahead of Dreamcast ffs (DC actually had more video memory!) Gamecube and Xbox were years beyond it in specs.

Wii U on the other hand is capable of Unity 4 (even if unsupported) and supports many of the graphics capabilities PS4 can do, even if significantly lower. The CPU is a bottleneck, but the majority of the processing load is placed on the GPU, another similarity to the architecture to PS4 (but again significantly lower.)

As much as you don't want to admit it, Wii U is about as far behind PS4 (and by extension Nextbox) as PS2 to Xbox 1 and Gamecube.

Daingurse said:
Exactly, no way in hell is the Wii-U closer to the PS4/Durango than the PS360. If the console was comparable to next gen we'd be getting fucking definitive version ports running at fucking 1080p/60fps easy. By making the hardware so awkward Nintendo made the box less appealing to 3rd parties. If the hardware was better ports could simply be brute forced and would easily be better than the PS360 versions.
Click to expand...

360 and PS3 games' processing load are primarily on the CPU. Wii U, the GPU. The port from 360/PS3 to Wii U have had issues because of this problem. However you are seeing "definitive versions" starting to show up with NFS and soon Deus Ex. With new hardware you're going to have an adjustment period. To simply deny that reality is, quite frankly, ignorant bordering on idiotic.

Oh wait this was the guy that said Trine 2 wasn't a graphics intensive game because it was made by 20 people. I rest me case.

Edit: Pulled some specs.

PS2

CPU: 64-bit "Emotion Engine" clocked at 294.912 MHz (299 MHz on newer versions)
System memory: 32 MB Direct Rambus or RDRAM
GPU: "Graphics Synthesizer" clocked at 147.456 MHz
Video memory: 4 MB Embedded DRAM video memory bandwidth at 48 gigabytes per second (main system 32 MB can be dedicated into VRAM for off-screen materials)

Xbox

CPU: 32-bit 733 MHz, custom Intel Pentium III Coppermine-based processor in a Micro-PGA2 package
Shared Memory: 64 MB DDR SDRAM at 200 MHz; in dual-channel 128-bit configuration giving 6400 MB/s
GPU: 233 MHz "NV2A" ASIC. Co-developed by Microsoft and Nvidia.
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Despite having shared memory, Xbox was basically twice as powerful as PS2 in every way. It also used a hard drive, adding additional VRAM when necessary.
 
Chindogg said:
If that's your point, then that point would be wrong. PS2 was barely ahead of Dreamcast ffs (DC actually had more video memory!) Gamecube and Xbox were years beyond it in specs.

Wii U on the other hand is capable of Unity 4 (even if unsupported) and supports many of the graphics capabilities PS4 can do, even if significantly lower. The CPU is a bottleneck, but the majority of the processing load is placed on the GPU, another similarity to the architecture to PS4 (but again significantly lower.)

As much as you don't want to admit it, Wii U is about as far behind PS4 (and by extension Nextbox) as PS2 to Xbox 1 and Gamecube.



360 and PS3 games' processing load are primarily on the CPU. Wii U, the GPU. The port from 360/PS3 to Wii U have had issues because of this problem. However you are seeing "definitive versions" starting to show up with NFS and soon Deus Ex. With new hardware you're going to have an adjustment period. To simply deny that reality is, quite frankly, ignorant bordering on idiotic.

Oh wait this was the guy that said Trine 2 wasn't a graphics intensive game because it was made by 20 people. I rest me case.
Click to expand...

I don't recall saying anything about Trine 2 at any point and time, shut your deluded mouth.
 
ClovingWestbrook said:
The Vita is getting more indie support due to how easy it is to port a game from the PS3 to the Vita. Nintendo is getting some nice indies. Many Indies have come out and have said that Nintendo is much easier to work with now than they were with the Wii.
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It's always relative. Is Nintendo more easier/friendlier/less strict than Sony, MS, etc? If not, then there is still barrier.


serplux said:
No it isn't. It's getting different indie games than what Nintendo's getting.
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In terms of quantity I'm not wrong. Besides what kind of 'different' indie games are you talking about?
 
kuroshiki said:
In terms of quantity I'm not wrong. Besides what kind of 'different' indie games are you talking about?
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As in games that the Vita isn't getting. The Wii U has around 40 confirmed indie games at this point coming to the platform, so honestly, the quantity argument doesn't really matter.
 
kuroshiki said:
It's always relative. Is Nintendo more easier/friendlier/less strict than Sony, MS, etc? If not, then there is still barrier.
Click to expand...

Nintendo is about the same as Sony for the indie space, even easier/friendlier in some ways. Microsoft right now shouldn't even be mentioned for the indie space.


kuroshiki said:
In terms of quantity I'm not wrong. Besides what kind of 'different' indie games are you talking about?
Click to expand...

In terms of quantity? The Vita has been out longer than the Wii U, of course it has more indie games released.
 
ClovingWestbrook said:
I like how you're avoiding those posts that state Nintendo doesn't have to release equally powerful hardware just comparable hardware. That the Wii U had the chance to be the PS2 of this generation. In fact many people before it's release were actually arguing the Wii U would be exactly that, since it would be cheaper to develop for. From what I recall, these same folks were expecting the PS4 to be significantly less powerful than it turned out to be and the same with whatever the Xbox will put out.

Nintendo fucked up. Nintendo admits it. The gamepad was suppose to be what distinguished it from the competition and draw in the buyers. It isn't doing that. At the same time the lack of power is also turning off third parties. The 360/PS3 has a 150 million install base so it's no surprise that third parties are just going to do put the game on those platforms. The PS4/Xbox 3 will be SIGNIFICANTLY more powerful than the Wii U. The Wii U is the third leg. It's low install base is keeping it from getting many games the PS3/360 are getting and it's weak power is causing it to miss many games the PS4/Xbox 3 will get.

Nintendo fucked up.
Click to expand...
I don't know about this. The Wii U would've had to have been a completely different console in order for this to happen and even then it still probably wouldn't have been the PS2 of this generation.

The PS2 was building off a lot of momentum that carried over from the PS1, while the Wii lost its momentum years before the Wii U even launched. And even if it hadn't, the Wii was essentially based around a concept that has worn off (I guess that's what people mean when they call it a "fad") and had an audience that doesn't really give a shit about video games outside of Wii Sports and Just Dance. Just assuming that the Wii audience would migrate over to the Wii U like the PS1 audience migrated to the PS2 is foolish. The audience the Wii appeals to doesn't really give a shit about upgrading their console.
 
Chindogg said:
I got you confused with AOC83. Sorry, in my delusion I got my trolls confused.
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You're a disgrace to your avatar, Grimlock deserves much better. Does Deus Ex or Need for Speed run at 1080p at least? If not then in no way is it comparable to the PS4, no way. It's current gen tech performance-wise, chronologically its next-gen sure. But who fucking cares?
 
Silent_Ocarina said:
PlayStation 2 wasn't as weak compared to its competition as Wii U will be, if I'm not mistaken. And it was a great step up from the original PlayStation as well. Wii U, on the other hand, is visually comparable to Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3.

Many things are holding Nintendo back this generation. Hardware is absolutely one of the important factors. I'd say investing in the GamePad is another. Marketing needs to be addressed as well.
Click to expand...

i'd like to know where the line is drawn at visually comparable, how many xbox 360s is the zelda tech demo? how many 360s is knack? those both look visually comparable to me and i'm not even talking about art direction. i'm talking about on a technical level.

i don't think there is anything iwata could do to clear this stuff up. they should've cleared the misconceptions up at launch. it's been out a year now and there's way too much "evidence" around the internet of it being underpowered to go away anytime soon. i hope they don't do a 360 and try a blue ocean strategy because of this.
 
Darryl said:
i'd like to know where the line is drawn at visually comparable, how many xbox 360s is the zelda tech demo? how many 360s is knack? those both look visually comparable to me and i'm not even talking about art direction. i'm talking about on a technical level.
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If you think Knack looks even remotely current-gen I don't even know what to tell you. Knack is easily a step up from this gen in fidelity alone.
 
Daingurse said:
You're a disgrace to your avatar, Grimlock deserves much better. Does Deus Ex or Need for Speed run at 1080p at least? If not then in no way is it comparable to the PS4, no way.
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NFS runs at 1080p. Deus Ex isn't out yet so I don't know.

Word of advice: calling everyone who disagrees with you as delusional doesn't make anyone take you seriously. Then again, correct me if I'm wrong, you don't care.

Mihael Mello Keehl said:
I was about to say, what kind of thread is this?
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Its a Nintendo thread. Every Nintendo thread ends up with the same 5 or 6 people showing up to derail the thread and overall troll. I'm surprised Dave Meltzer/Brera isn't in here yet.
 
Please stop using released games from third parties or Nintendo themselves to judge the Wii U hardware and please do not analyze the specs and please do not mention the power draw which cannot possibly allude to its perforance. Please look to this box of sunshine, rainbows and gumdrops and believe the Wii U is significantly more powerful than the previous generation.

Daingurse said:
You're a disgrace to your avatar, Grimlock deserves much better. Does Deus Ex or Need for Speed run at 1080p at least? If not then in no way is it comparable to the PS4, no way. It's current gen tech performance-wise, chronologically its next-gen sure. But who fucking cares?
Click to expand...

Dammit I'm on my phone...the response was this lol
 
Well on the actual topic of the thread. Nintendo got in touch with me and got approved as an E-Shop Developer. Time to bring some dinosaur games out ;)
 
Chindogg said:
Every review I've seen says 1080p 30fps. Is there someplace saying otherwise?
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The game does not run at native 1080p. It doesnt. Even if it did that would be no indication of how much better it would be compared to graphics from ps4720 cause im sure developers are going to aim for better graphical fidelity than resolution and fps. Hell theif 4 is already confirmed 30fps
 
antonz said:
Well on the actual topic of the thread. Nintendo got in touch with me and got approved as an E-Shop Developer. Time to bring some dinosaur games out ;)
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Congrats.

metalslimer said:
By every review do you mean 0?
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I'm finding 704p reviews as well. Looks like some are bullshit. I'll take your word for it then.

Mihael Mello Keehl said:
The game does not run at native 1080p. It doesnt. Even if it did that would be no indication of how much better it would be compared to graphics from ps4720 cause im sure developers are going to aim for better graphical fidelity than resolution and fps. Hell theif 4 is already confirmed 30fps
Click to expand...

Ok I'm 1-3 in searching today. I retract my statement.
 
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