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[dofry]

Hows it being a fanboy if you like something and find it perfectly fine? Im sorry that I dont find ios or android the mind blowing experiences that you seem to think that they are compared to Symbian.

It is prefectly fine to like Symbian as is. This is just bullshit name calling when some have nothing to say. Just slap the fanboy card at the table and give that as a valid argument to anything. No explanations necessary.

Symbian gets the job done and everything else is just bonus for some people like you. Many of my friends feel that way too, the fancy UI, apps and others are unnecessary when all you need to do is call and use everything else via laptop. I feel the total opposite and get a lot from small convenient apps I can get easily. I used to own a lot of Nokia's, so I know they function well in most tasks.

Also GAF is a bit leaning towards US markets which are not Nokia's markets at all, so drawing conclusions from there to the rest of the world is not the most logical thing to do. Most reviews i've read bash some really nice features unnecessarily, like Engadget. The camera in N8 is really superb to anything else in a mobile phone and you can see it easily with your own eyes.

 

[LCfiner]

There's two separate issues in this thread.

1. an individual's personal enjoyment of Symbian OS and the phones that use it.

2. Nokia's future prospects if they do not radically overhaul Symbian or use an alternative OS to make their phones more popular and regain marketshare, mindshare and profitshare.


number one isn't really interesting or important. number two is.

 

[Burger]

I had the misfortune of using a Nokia N8 the other day. Hardware wise it was a fine device, but man, the OS was a piece of shit. I could not figure out what the fuck was happening most of the time.

Every time I've heard someone try and defend the thing the first feature they mention is the camera, as if it's the most important bit. The owner of the phone said he's lucky to get half a day usage out of it. Amazing, I'll take two.

 

[markot]

I just moved from the N97 to the Desire HD and my feelings towards Symbian have nothing to do with thinking that Android is mind-blowing and everything to do with feeling that Symbian is a seriously sub-par mobile OS.

The N97 was a pretty.... not so great phone though. Which had as much to do with its hardware then anything.

Ive got a Nokia N8 and I think its pretty great >.< OS and all.

 

[Kamakazie!]

iPhone 4 is free on Orange UK plans for an 24 month contract and 50 euro/month.
http://shop.orange.co.uk/iphone/choose-your-4g-plan

The prices will be different based on the carriers and market worldwide. Apple sells it to the carriers at standard prices and carriers can gouge or subsidize customers as much as they want, depending on what the local consumer market can bear.

I don't see your point. Are you saying the iPhone isn't overpriced because of that?
At launch my desire was free on an 18 month £25 contract on orange... everything is free in the UK, if you pay enough a month for long enough.

I hope they sort MeeGo out personally but WP7 could be good. MS needs to get to work on improving it with consistent updates. I'd definitely consider a Nokia with the os but would like multi tasking and a better browser before doing so. Probably go with a webos device at this rate however.

 

[markot]

I had the misfortune of using a Nokia N8 the other day. Hardware wise it was a fine device, but man, the OS was a piece of shit. I could not figure out what the fuck was happening most of the time.

Every time I've heard someone try and defend the thing the first feature they mention is the camera, as if it's the most important bit. The owner of the phone said he's lucky to get half a day usage out of it. Amazing, I'll take two.

I get 1+ days of usage out of mine, it has better battery life than my bros iphone4 by a large margin.

And if you cant figure out whats going on with the OS.... I mean really, you have a Karl icon, you must have his IQ >.<

 

[Burger]

I get 1+ days of usage out of mine, it has better battery life than my bros iphone4 by a large margin.

And if you cant figure out whats going on with the OS.... I mean really, you have a Karl icon, you must have his IQ >.<

Hey man, keep fucking that chicken. Obviously if they are so amazing then Nokia will sell millions of them right?

 

[numble]

I don't see your point. Are you saying the iPhone isn't overpriced because of that?
At launch my desire was free on an 18 month £25 contract on orange... everything is free in the UK, if you pay enough a month for long enough.

He's doling out prices of phones in Europe 24 month contracts. I brought a comparison that's from Europe, of iPhones on 24 month contracts.

I could bring examples where people pay ~25-30 Euros/month in Asian countries and get iPhones for free as well.

The price a person pays is usually going to be based on what their local carrier sets the price at. The carriers will offer larger subsidies or gouge more from place to place, and are based on what local customers are willing to pay. If there are a ton of people willing to pay money for an iPhone, there's no reason to offer a larger subsidy, especially if what you get in is not going to get you more than not giving a larger subsidy.

If you want to compare prices, compare the contract-free price, and you'll see that the iPhone is priced pretty competitively.

 

[markot]

Hey man, keep fucking that chicken. Obviously if they are so amazing then Nokia will sell millions of them right?

They have already sold millions of them.

 

[Lagspike_exe]

I tried N97 yesterday. The phone is a joke. Hardware wise, it isn't really bad, except for the awful resistive touch screen. But the OS. Oh my God, the OS..

 

[Firestorm]

Well of course you can get low end smartphones. What are the prices for something similar to the hardware of the iPhone 4? Nexus S, Droid X, Galaxy S, G2, and so on. In the US these are all standard $150+ on contract.

What's funny is I went with the iPhone 3G over the N95 in 2008 because the iPhone was considerably cheaper (on my upgrade it was $250 for the iPhone 3G vs $450 for the N95).

A possible issue for Nokia:
http://communities-dominate.blogs.c...et-share-crash-dive-i-may-have-an-answer.html

Only read what's found under the header "A HOUSE OF CARDS". It's really long-winded and that's all you gotta skim.

 

[tino]

What's funny is I went with the iPhone 3G over the N95 in 2008 because the iPhone was considerably cheaper (on my upgrade it was $250 for the iPhone 3G vs $450 for the N95).

A possible issue for Nokia:
http://communities-dominate.blogs.c...et-share-crash-dive-i-may-have-an-answer.html

Only read what's found under the header "A HOUSE OF CARDS". It's really long-winded and that's all you gotta skim.

Very interesting read. People who brought up Americans and the US market in this thread didn't realize Nokia's market share lost had nothing to do with the US market. Nokia has no presence in the US market. Nokia lost all 25% of its smartphone market share in the short span of 6 months because its losing popularity in the world GSM market.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

To be honest Symbian at least knows the basic concept of both appointments and tasks (although lack of categories still baffled me after switching from WM6).
I don't have to install some third party PIM to manage them.

This is true, I have no idea why there isn't standard Google Tasks integration in Android OS considering how well integrated the rest of the Google Apps stuff is.

The N97 was a pretty.... not so great phone though. Which had as much to do with its hardware then anything.

Ive got a Nokia N8 and I think its pretty great >.< OS and all.

That's cool dude, I've got no beef with you. Just saying that not all of the opinions here about Symbian are uninformed. I've certainly spent a lot of time with it over the last 18 months, on the N97 and test handsets, given that I work in IT with a mobile focus.

Anyway, I have a laundry list of things about Symbian that piss me off. The built-in browser is horrible and there's no way to set Opera as the launcher for web links so you're stuck with it. The screen orientation flipping is sluggish and freezes if something is using a lot of CPU in the background. Scrolling and UI in general is really glitchy and slow, although the addition of the dedicated GPU and a bumped up CPU speed in the N8 may have resolved that somewhat.

Actually as far as UI goes it's a long way behind the curve, and I say that as someone who isn't all that excited by user-interfaces generally. The email client feels like it was designed for phones with buttons then squeezed into a phone which is primarily meant to operate via touch, with buttons as a fall-back. It also seems to struggle quite a bit to work out whether you're clicking a link/number in an email/text, or trying to select text, and usually ends up doing neither.

I've also noticed a huge number of issues with multi-tasking, program notifications and the screen lock. As in, there are times when the OS gets stuck and isn't sure whether it's meant to be locked or unlocked and I have to pull the battery out to unlock it. And Ovi Suite is horrible. Really horrible. Yet I have to install it on every system upon which I would like to use my handset as a 3G modem?

There's more stuff too, but those are some of the complaints I can remember having not turned that abomination on since November. It could just be that the N97 is a dud-model, they can't all be winners. I have a hard time believing that everything I've described is restricted to the N97 though.

 

[Nemo]

Symbian is pretty shit but damn this would be huge for MS

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

How is Windows Phone 7 doing anyway?

Up to expectations?

Does it look to rival Android so far?

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Something tells me that Nokia and Microsoft wouldn't be holding a joint conference next week if Windows Phone 7 was doing well.

 

[dream]

By most indications, WP7 isn't selling well at all.

 

[Tornado Condor]

By most indications, WP7 isn't selling well at all.

Rightfully so. Microsoft limited their selection with a bunch of phones restricted to GSM. What happened to us CDMA users? I would have bought a WP7 phone but Sprint hasn't gotten any of them yet.

 

[Firestorm]

Rightfully so. Microsoft limited their selection with a bunch of phones restricted to GSM. What happened to us CDMA users? I would have bought a WP7 phone but Sprint hasn't gotten any of them yet.

You CDMA users are a dying breed. GSM gets the cool phones first. This has been the way for years. Microsoft could have waited or they could have launched the phone using the dominant technology and then rolled out the CDMA one second.

 

[leroidys]

Microsoft Office Mobile Suite on Symbian.

Disappointments, ahoy!

First take I read this as:

Microsoft Office Mobile Suit Gundam

 

[Vanillalite]

By most indications, WP7 isn't selling well at all.

Doing descent well in the EU mainly because IMO Apple doesn't have the hearts and minds of the people like in the US and Nokia's OS seems old. That leaves basically Android.

In NA they aren't doing that great. They have to compete against both Android and iOS, and most people on AT&T which arguably has the best WP7 device in the Focus see the iphone 4 and go I'll take that.

 

[Hellsing321]

I for one am glad I'm a fan of a company that doesn't rip off its customers like Apple does hence the low profit. That's why Nokia is so popular and Apple can only succeed in USA where it bombards its customers with ads in order to sell its products.

Is this a real post? This has to be a joke, right?... Right?

 

[Canova]

well Nokia had a good run.

this will just speed up their death

 

[Tornado Condor]

You CDMA users are a dying breed. GSM gets the cool phones first. This has been the way for years. Microsoft could have waited or they could have launched the phone using the dominant technology and then rolled out the CDMA one second.

Yeah we are, unfortunately. At least i own the almighty SERO plan! I can deal with shitty phones at this monthly price ;p

 

[Vanillalite]

well Nokia had a good run.

this will just speed up their death

Nokia's big popularity is in the EU still which actually currently is probably the best region for WP7 sales wise. It's not THAT bad of a choice.

You can throw me into the crowd that wonders wtf does this do to Meego?

 

[dream]

Does anyone really care about Meego?

I think Nokia adopting WP7 in exchange for maybe some preferential, almost first-partyesque, treatment from Microsoft is a win/win for everyone involved.

 

[Vanillalite]

Does anyone really care about Meego?

I think Nokia adopting WP7 in exchange for maybe some preferential, almost first-partyesque, treatment from Microsoft is a win/win for everyone involved.

I don't disagree about Meego, but I mean SOMEONE at Nokia had to care or else the project (or half of it at least) wouldn't even exist.

You can also throw me into the thing of preferential treatment. Seems like a win win for both involved. This is something at the current time Google probably wouldn't do, and obviously Apple is a 1 device thing. If not their own Meego thing where else would they turn?

 

[CiSTM]

I don't disagree about Meego, but I mean SOMEONE at Nokia had to care or else the project (or half of it at least) wouldn't even exist.

You can also throw me into the thing of preferential treatment. Seems like a win win for both involved. This is something at the current time Google probably wouldn't do, and obviously Apple is a 1 device thing. If not their own Meego thing where else would they turn?

Maybe they are preparing for the possibility that MeeGo will fail ? Maemo wasn't so hot so it might have scared Nokia a bit. I personally loved N900 and Maemo OS was pretty awesome but even with all the PR they did for the phone it sold something like 50.000 units and that's world wide. If MeeGo fails Nokia can't compete in the smartphone market except if they go android/WP7.

 

[CurlySaysX]

Nokia fanboys are so weird to me because they find ways to convince themselves that Symbian is a perfectly acceptable mobile OS.

Yes. And I find it amusing how they love to call iPhone users isheep while conveniently forgetting that 3 years ago 99% of mobile phone users had a Nokia. I used to see n95s all over the place.
Too bad Nokia can no longer release rehashed phones every 3 months and expect people to pay a premium for it.

 

[dream]

I don't disagree about Meego, but I mean SOMEONE at Nokia had to care or else the project (or half of it at least) wouldn't even exist.

You can also throw me into the thing of preferential treatment. Seems like a win win for both involved. This is something at the current time Google probably wouldn't do, and obviously Apple is a 1 device thing. If not their own Meego thing where else would they turn?

Yeah, I know, but at some point you just have to cut your losses. There's no reason to pin your future on an OS with no marketshare, almost nonexistant hardware support, and limited developer support. If Nokia makes the right kind of deal with Microsoft, maybe they can even roll in some of the UX stuff and custom apps they've done into a future version of Windows Phone.

 

[industrian]

Yes. And I find it amusing how they love to call iPhone users isheep while conveniently forgetting that 3 years ago 99% of mobile phone users had a Nokia. I used to see n95s all over the place.
Too bad Nokia can no longer release rehashed phones every 3 months and expect people to pay a premium for it.

When I was doing research on what smartphone to get, the comments section of nearly every N8 review (in which the only glaring faults were the UI and OS) was filled by Nokia fanboys claiming reviewers were biased in favour of Apple and other inane arguments. It was quite embarrassing to read.

 

[DECK'ARD]

I still haven't seen anyone with a WP7 phone in the UK, or even an advert for it. Is it even out?

Haven't known anyone with a Nokia phone for a long time either. Both companies need each other really, so I could see this happen.

Nokia became so complacent, I remember the days of the 8850 and it being by far the coolest phone you could have. The changeable covers on the low-end phones, nearly everyone I knew had a Nokia. Then then just seemed to stop ... trying.

Tech-heavy phones but with nothing interesting enough about them, nothing to appeal to the average consumer, and a hopelessly outdated OS.

 

[dream]

See, Nokia gets a pass from me cause they made the fucking Matrix phone but I haven't used one of their handsets in years just because their idea of what a mobile OS should be is so completely disconnected from what my vision of handheld computing is.

 

[DECK'ARD]

See, Nokia gets a pass from me cause they made the fucking Matrix phone but I haven't used one of their handsets in years just because their idea of what a mobile OS should be is so completely disconnected from what my vision of handheld computing is.

Yeah, the Nokia situation is similar to Sony and the Walkman.

Market dominance, flagship models that were the most desirable of any brand. But their constant innovation gave way to just constant refinement and stagnation, they took their dominance for granted. Meanwhile rivals placed more emphasis on innovation to try and get a foothold, when consumers took to those ideas and the market was redefined it left them unable to respond.

With both Sony and Nokia it's like they resented the change in their markets rather than understanding and embracing it. Too slow to adapt, and too half-hearted in how they did it.

 

[Nemo]

Yeah, the Nokia situation is similar to Sony and the Walkman.

Market dominance, flagship models that were the most desirable of any brand. But their constant innovation gave way to just constant refinement and stagnation, they took their dominance for granted. Meanwhile rivals placed more emphasis on innovation to try and get a foothold, when consumers took to those ideas and the market was redefined it left them unable to respond.

With both Sony and Nokia it's like they resented the change in their markets rather than understanding and embracing it. Too slow to adapt, and too half-hearted in how they did it.

I've got an N79 and it still is one of the best phones I've ever used. And I've used a lot of them. Granted, that thing was bought a few years ago and they never really released anything substantial enough to upgrade but it still does anything you could want in a phone

Nokia's problem always was the software. And it's situation isn't at all like Sony's walkman. Their phones still sell really well despite shitty revisions

 

[mrklaw]

The bolded part is important. Nokia won't go exclusively with WP7 (that would be really stupid) and they're gonna keep Symbian or MeeGo. It would make sense to drop MeeGo, then use WP7 for the high-end and Symbian for the lower-end devices. They talked about it on the Engadget podcast and it seems that Symbian is too huge to just drop it like that. MeeGo on the other hand isn't even on one single product. You can only download images for the N900 and Netbooks, but that's it.

that'd be interesting. Nokia has put a lot of weight behind positioning meego as their smartphone platform for the high end. But then if they do tie up with MS, windows mobile 7 is also a high end platform. Doesn't make sense to have two. And Meego still isn't ready, how long have we been waiting for devices? W7 is ready to go.

The problem with symbian is yes its slow and clunky (although the N8 isn't that bad - once you've set it up just right you can avoid having to go into the menus), but its also mass market - its driving Nokia revenues right now. You can't easily just kill it. Tricky problem.

 

[Polari]

Failure teaming up with failure. This must be a winning strategy. Nokia should just adopt Android, the war's already over.

They should have bought Palm when they had the chance. $1.2 billion for WebOS is a pretty good deal and branding as Nokia/Palm might have actually got them a foothold in the US market. At least then they'd still have had an exclusive OS.

 

[Walshicus]

Nokia should just adopt Android, the war's already over.

... why? It's not very good. People buy Android as a "good enough" OS, unless you're hardcore into customising or developing for it.

Where is the Android eco-system? Where is the money?

The smart move is to develop and expand a platform which has demonstrated a capacity to sell and to grab a slice of the supplemental revenue pie. Ceteris paribus, that choice would be iOS or WP7; iOS is out for obvious reasons.

 

[dude]

I have always used Nokia phones, they're usually free over here and I'm cheap. Currently I'm using the... C7 I think*? C-something. Anyway, I really hope they continue to make cheap phones if they transition to WP7... That's what I need them for, leave the high-end bullshit to other companies.

EDIT: Just checked, it's a C7.

 

[faridmon]

An iPhone 4 is $200,.

No way is it that cheap in UK.

Holy crap, I didn't know it was that cheap in America.

I still haven't seen anyone with a WP7 phone in the UK, or even an advert for it. Is it even out?

Haven't known anyone with a Nokia phone for a long time either. Both companies need each other really, so I could see this happen.

Nokia became so complacent, I remember the days of the 8850 and it being by far the coolest phone you could have. The changeable covers on the low-end phones, nearly everyone I knew had a Nokia. Then then just seemed to stop ... trying.

Tech-heavy phones but with nothing interesting enough about them, nothing to appeal to the average consumer, and a hopelessly outdated OS.

They do advertise WP7 everywhere where I live (London) but yeah, not many seems to use it. But again, all I see is Iphone users here.

Nokia was populer untill the Iphone 3G was released. I know many people who had its smartphones and loved it at that time.

 

[SnakeXs]

No way is it that cheap in UK.

Holy crap, I didn't know it was that cheap in America.

You do know they're (heavily) subsidized by carrier contracts, right?

 

[faridmon]

You do know they're (heavily) subsidized by carrier contracts, right?

was he talking about contracts up in US?

I mean, without contract, that phone cost an arm and a leg.

 

[Firestorm]

was he talking about contracts up in US?

I mean, without contract, that phone cost an arm and a leg.

Yeah. Not sure in the US but it's $159 with 3 year contract (standard length) and $659 unsubsidized in Canada.

 

[gcubed]

... why? It's not very good. People buy Android as a "good enough" OS, unless you're hardcore into customising or developing for it.

Where is the Android eco-system? Where is the money?

The smart move is to develop and expand a platform which has demonstrated a capacity to sell and to grab a slice of the supplemental revenue pie. Ceteris paribus, that choice would be iOS or WP7; iOS is out for obvious reasons.

people actually buy android... so yeah, at least you have users to sell to, and if you put out a good product, you make money

although not sure i'd expect you to know that

 

[Walshicus]

people actually buy android... so yeah, at least you have users to sell to, and if you put out a good product, you make money

That's not how you make money. You make money by selling something for more than it costs you to make.

Nokia already has the volume. They sell a lot of phones. What it doesn't have is control or access to a functioning ecosystem for application and other media sales. Microsoft has that. Microsoft will make its money from Marketplace sales and Bing ads. I think Nokia wants a slice of that. Microsoft gains volume, Nokia gains revenue straight to the bottom line.

Perfect match.

although not sure i'd expect you to know that

Nerr-ne-nerr-ne-nerrr.

 

[tino]

... why? It's not very good. People buy Android as a "good enough" OS, unless you're hardcore into customising or developing for it.

Where is the Android eco-system? Where is the money?

The smart move is to develop and expand a platform which has demonstrated a capacity to sell and to grab a slice of the supplemental revenue pie. Ceteris paribus, that choice would be iOS or WP7; iOS is out for obvious reasons.

First of all, it's more than "good enough", it's pretty good.

Second of all, good enough is how windows 95/XP won the war. Android has already won the market share war. There is no space for another mobile operation system. Picking the wrong side (wp7) will make Nokia die a horrible dead.

And lastly, there are plenty of money to be made, otherwise Amazon, BN, Sony Panasonic etc wouldn't jump in the android ecosystem.

 

[Sqrt_minus_one]

Yeah. Not sure in the US but it's $159 with 3 year contract (standard length) and $659 unsubsidized in Canada.

How much is the contract on a monthly basis?



I predict integration of exchange and Nokia devices, Nokia have come too far with Meego to drop it a few months from a potential launch. Hell the OS is usable at this point, why would Nokia drop a platform they control for one where they are another commodity manufacturer competing with other OEMs this close to the launch of their own. Makes no sense to me, lastly Nokia is still the largest smartphone manufacturer - yes their market share is going to hell in a hand basket. But they still have tremendous mindshare and if they execute with Meego I feel they have more than a chance of success.

As for the whole Symbian ain't bad debate, sure it's still a good OS but it is not ideal it's clunky and Nokia has taken to utilising rather anaemic hardware for it to run atop. It's about as ideal as using a butter knife to carve steak.

 

[Walshicus]

And lastly, there are plenty of money to be made, otherwise Amazon, BN, Sony Panasonic etc wouldn't jump in the android ecosystem.

How much of that revenue would Nokia catch?

 

[faridmon]

Yeah. Not sure in the US but it's $159 with 3 year contract (standard length) and $659 unsubsidized in Canada.

oh OK. but it doesn't change the fact that the phone is quite expensive if you are not one of those people who like contracts.

 

[bionic77]

Failure teaming up with failure. This must be a winning strategy. Nokia should just adopt Android, the war's already over.

They should have bought Palm when they had the chance. $1.2 billion for WebOS is a pretty good deal and branding as Nokia/Palm might have actually got them a foothold in the US market. At least then they'd still have had an exclusive OS.

I was saying the same thing when Palm ran out of money and was up for sale. It seemed like such a perfect combination and Nokia could have kept their shitty Symbian stuff for the dumb phones (which are pretty damn good if that is what you want).

If Nokia had been smart enough to make a move like that I could have seen them dominating the international smartphone market with a competent mobile OS.

The Windows stuff doesn't make as much sense to me because they are arriving so late and left such a bad fucking taste in everyone's mouth with Windows Mobile. That was the one OS that made Symbian look good!