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JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: Diamond is Unbreakable OT What a Beautiful Duwang

SoulUnison

Banned
Oh yeah, neat little thing: in the fighting games, Kosaku-Kira is a separate character from Original Kira, and his moveset is based on Stray Cat and throwing exploding bubbles -- but as per this battle, Kira will get hurt if you detonate the bubble too close to him.

It pisses me off incredibly that All-Star Battle charged extra for the Yoshikage Kira Playable Character DLC, but then he's a completely inferior character to Kosaku Kawajiri.
Like, to the point that I'm not even sure it's by design. Some of his attacks just straight up can't combo or link but seem designed to be able to and are next to useless without the ability to.
 

Leezard

Member
It pisses me off incredibly that All-Star Battle charged extra for the Yoshikage Kira Playable Character DLC, but then he's a completely inferior character to Kosaku Kawajiri.
Like, to the point that I'm not even sure it's by design. Some of his attacks just straight up can't combo or link but seem designed to be able to and are next to useless without the ability to.

Really? I seem to have much more trouble playing Kosaku Kira in All-Star Battle, while I get great results with Bowie Kira. That might be because I suck at detonating the air bubbles though.
 

SoulUnison

Banned
Really? I seem to have much more trouble playing Kosaku Kira in All-Star Battle, while I get great results with Bowie Kira. That might be because I suck at detonating the air bubbles though.

Huh. To me, Kira is like a gimped Kosaku.
He's sort of like a "clone character" except his combos don't link correctly and he's missing a key few of Kosaku's specials.
Kira's OK if you rely on the auto-combo system, but if you play "manually" Kosaku is such a superior character with so many more options it's not even funny.

For instance, compare Kira and Kosaku's "This is the First Bomb!" specials.
Kosaku can combo into it from several of his normals, while Kira's all push the enemy out of range or simply don't allow you to even try the link, and the move is too slow and obvious to ever connect if just thrown out randomly.
Then Kosaku gets Stray Cat's sir bombs which he can vary the speed of, change the trajectory of, and detonate at will, while Kira gets the "coin flip bomb" which is incredibly slow, amazingly obvious, and covers a tiny static point on the ground in a 3D fighter that has sidestepping.
Also, Kira can only maintain one bomb at a time, so it disables most of his other specials while active, leaving him often helpless or too slow to respond to a threat.

It's a shame, too because Kira's in-game theme song and presence is completely badass.
It's a really great feeling of "overwhelming panic" with some little flairs that kinda make you think of Queen.
His "dame dame dame dame dame" round win animation is ruthless and amazing.
 

Leezard

Member
Huh. To me, Kira is like a gimped Kosaku.
He's sort of like a "clone character" except his combos don't link correctly and he's missing a key few of Kosaku's specials.
Kira's OK if you rely on the auto-combo system, but if you play "manually" Kosaku is such a superior character with so many more options it's not even funny.

For instance, compare Kira and Kosaku's "This is the First Bomb!" specials.
Kosaku can combo into it from several of his normals, while Kira's all push the enemy out of range or simply don't allow you to even try the link, and the move is too slow and obvious to ever connect if just thrown out randomly.
Then Kosaku gets Stray Cat's sir bombs which he can vary the speed of, change the trajectory of, and detonate at will, while Kira gets the "coin flip bomb" which is incredibly slow, amazingly obvious, and covers a tiny static point on the ground in a 3D fighter that has sidestepping.
Also, Kira can only maintain one bomb at a time, so it disables most of his other specials while active, leaving him often helpless or too slow to respond to a threat.

It's a shame, too because Kira's in-game theme song and presence is completely badass.
It's a really great feeling of "overwhelming panic" with some little flairs that kinda make you think of Queen.
His "dame dame dame dame dame" round win animation is ruthless and amazing.
Oh yeah, that's true. The first bomb stuff is completely useless for Kira. I find the coin kinda useful, but you're right in that it's worse than the air bombs.

I'm not sure how much is different for the regular moveset for Kira and Kosaku, do they have different stand rushes? It was a while since I played Kosaku. I dislike Kosaku's counter HHA too.
 

NeonZ

Member
Jotaro not checking out something he thought sounded like Josuke instead of waiting for Josuke to show up like they agreed on is such a minor thing, it's honestly laughable that people are even bringing it up. It's not like this hasn't happened before either, like in the "The Devil" arc in SDC.

The issue here is that he just needed to take a look at the nearby corner. It's not like he'd miss Josuke by walking over there if it happened to be nothing.
 
The issue here is that he just needed to take a look at the nearby corner. It's not like he'd miss Josuke by walking over there if it happened to be nothing.

He thought it was nothing. You think it's important because you know it is. It's as simple as that.
 
Agreed. As much as I like this part (peak JoJo? peak JoJo), it's not flawless and obviously not above criticism. "You have to accept the inconsistencies"? Er... No, you don't.
I'm not gonna lie, the part with Jotaro definitely rubbed me the wrong way. I honestly couldn't get it out of my head the entire episode, especially with all the other commotion caused by the fight between Josuke and Kira. I know, its for the sake of the story and all but it definitely stood out in a bad way to me personally.
 

Betty

Banned
The issue here is that he just needed to take a look at the nearby corner. It's not like he'd miss Josuke by walking over there if it happened to be nothing.

tumblr_nv6sbtItx41uqn0wio1_500.png
 

cntr

Banned
That's kind of what I mean by David Pro screwing up the flow. In the manga it's no big deal, since the paneling of that page and the chapter overall is arranged to make it convincing that Jotaro didn't pay attention to it; the visuals give you the impression that he had a hunch that he didn't act on.

The episode screwed up and didn't set it up properly, making it sound like Jotaro heard Josuke but randomly chose to ignore it, making it much more glaring, as people actually said.
 

Reknoc

Member
Clearly everyone was so used to Josuke showing up late that the idea of him being on time or early is so inconceivable to them that even if they hear him they think its the rain.
 
That's kind of what I mean by David Pro screwing up the flow. In the manga it's no big deal, since the paneling of that page and the chapter overall is arranged to make it convincing that Jotaro didn't pay attention to it; the visuals give you the impression that he had a hunch that he didn't act on.

The episode screwed up and didn't set it up properly, making it sound like Jotaro heard Josuke but randomly chose to ignore it, making it much more glaring, as people actually said.

The format of manga, where there is no sound, a weaker sense of three-dimensional space, and the reader's eye can quickly skim over panels, make it inherently easier to gloss over logical inconsistencies than the format of anime. If anything, the anime adaptation should have changed things further from the manga so that Jotaro wasn't just around the corner to begin with.
 
That's kind of what I mean by David Pro screwing up the flow. In the manga it's no big deal, since the paneling of that page and the chapter overall is arranged to make it convincing that Jotaro didn't pay attention to it; the visuals give you the impression that he had a hunch that he didn't act on.

The episode screwed up and didn't set it up properly, making it sound like Jotaro heard Josuke but randomly chose to ignore it, making it much more glaring, as people actually said.

Yeah, there are so many instances where DP just lazily adapts the panel instead of showing how you would accurately intrepet it in motion. Same goes for the rain and not showing the low visibility/audibility of the setting. Readers of manga are encouraged to assume things whereas watchers of anime need to be shown everything in play. I'd rather not chew out DP now, cause given the budget and episode count, what they managed to put out is nothing short of a miracle, but a THIRD of DiU feels like that ONE super sloppy episode in SDC. PB and DiU are the only parts that I feel are significantly weaker than their manga counterparts, but I'm going to wait until the end to do a write up.

Edit: Tbf, they've been doing good with "Speedwagon"-esque dialogue, especially when characters are running or in mid air. It hasn't bothered me like it has in the manga.
 

cntr

Banned
honestly I'd be nicer to David Pro, but damn, stupid complaints about "filler", assholes posting spoilers (yeah, thanks for calling us "neurotic" earlier), and then they choose to start fucking up right when the "plot" people were demanding occurs, then fuck up several of the best fights in DiU, so the complaints not only didn't stop, but increased!

I can't wait for this season to be over, it's been awful.
 
DiU has been an enjoyable show and I'm glad I'm not a manga purist.

Maybe if the manga had released in 2016 and people here had been following it weekly instead of being able to binge read entire chapters at once there'd also have been complaints.
 
DiU has been an enjoyable show and I'm glad I'm not a manga purist.

Maybe if the manga had released in 2016 and people here had been following it weekly instead of being able to binge read entire chapters at once there'd also have been complaints.

This is probably it. Being a manga reader and having DiU as my second favourite part has set my expectations unrealistically high for what isn't even considered a "priority" part for Jojo in japan. Now that I've seen people react to weekly episodes, now I sort of see why. The slice of life aspect must have been AWFULLY slow for serialization and I definitely see DiU as something that is better binge read (can't say the same for SDC, that was a drag in both the manga and anime). I can't wait to see how people will react to """"worst part"""" lol.
 
Yes? That's what I said.

Oh, is that what you think? Then great, we can agree there.

At any rate, while I'm not trying to say the DiU anime is flawless - as I said earlier, when the schedule crunch became powerful the anime took a clear hit in quality, though it's impressive that the anime team have been able to pull themselves out of that to a certain extent (they must be working like madmen right now) - I feel like Diamond is Unbreakable is the first Jojo TV arc where significant thought has been put into making the material work really well in animated form, from the designs to the overall art style to the direction techniques to the pacing. By contrast, Phantom Blood and Battle Tendency were mediocre looking motion comics with sound and Stardust Crusaders was too literal, lacking in style, and dragged on way too much. So I simply can't say that Diamond is Unbreakable is the worst adaptation David Production has done, even if it's not the perfect adaptation some manga fans wished for.
 

cntr

Banned
Stop framing this in terms of "manga fans", please. That's not what I've been talking about.

I'd agree with what you're saying about making the animation work...except they pretty much stopped doing that. So I can't agree with that either.
 

Breads

Banned
DiU has been an enjoyable show and I'm glad I'm not a manga purist.

Maybe if the manga had released in 2016 and people here had been following it weekly instead of being able to binge read entire chapters at once there'd also have been complaints.

Maybe. We seem to be enjoying Jojo at its current pace of 30-40 pages per monthly chapter in the manga thread. Seems to work out better as far as pacing goes compared to the 7-15 weekly pages it used to run in when DIU was told.

Oh, is that what you think? Then great, we can agree there.

At any rate, while I'm not trying to say the DiU anime is flawless - as I said earlier, when the schedule crunch became powerful the anime took a clear hit in quality, though it's impressive that the anime team have been able to pull themselves out of that to a certain extent (they must be working like madmen right now) - I feel like Diamond is Unbreakable is the first Jojo TV arc where significant thought has been put into making the material work really well in animated form, from the designs to the overall art style to the direction techniques to the pacing. By contrast, Phantom Blood and Battle Tendency were mediocre looking motion comics with sound and Stardust Crusaders was too literal, lacking in style, and dragged on way too much. So I simply can't say that Diamond is Unbreakable is the worst adaptation David Production has done, even if it's not the perfect adaptation some manga fans wished for.

Issues aside I think it's the best job that could have been done. This wasn't a 1-2 cour a year schedule. They went all in every week and although it took a few hits overall I am personally happy with now DIU ended up being. I only expressed the opinion that some of the changes weren't for the better, which I think is fair. I understand the reasons for them... but they still happened.
 
Stop framing this in terms of "manga fans", please. That's not what I've been talking about.

I'd agree with what you're saying about making the animation work...except they pretty much stopped doing that. So I can't agree with that either.

Are you not a fan of the Jojo manga? I got that impression from your writing; if that was incorrect, I apologize.
 
By nature of having full color, music, voice acting, and sound effects, the anime version of DiU is inherently superior (to me) to its manga counterpart.

Shounen manga is unreadable for me. I only prefer that format of entertainment for more slice of lifey stuff.
 

cntr

Banned
Are you not a fan of the Jojo manga? I got that impression from your writing; if that was incorrect, I apologize.
I'm a fan of the manga, yes. But you're treating it as if it's some demand for purism, when it's (to me) an accurate assessment -- the DiU anime, due to its production issues, introduces many flaws into the story that should not have been there, and doesn't convey DiU as well as it should have.

Is that really such a weird thing to say? It's still a great show, but that's what it is.
 

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
I feel compressing 4 arcs into a single "Thursday" arc really screwed with pacing. Also they cut to many jokes overall.
 
I'm a fan of the manga, yes. But you're treating it as if it's some demand for purism, when it's (to me) an accurate assessment -- the DiU anime, due to its production issues, introduces many flaws into the story that should not have been there, and doesn't convey DiU as well as it should have.

Is that really such a weird thing to say? It's still a great show, but that's what it is.

Most of the times I've heard manga fans complain about anime adaptations it does come down to the issue of faithfulness to the source material, and that is what your criticisms of the DiU anime cutting out certain lines of dialogue sounded like. If I misinterpreted your position, I apologize.

I'm not trying to say the anime should be exempt from criticism. I'm just trying to say that, as an anime, I think Diamond is Unbreakable is the most successful of any of the Jojo TV parts so far. (But then I have different priorities from Jojo manga fans, since I really like the 1993 Stardust Crusaders OVA series that seems to be mostly disliked by manga fans.) It could have been even better had the production remained consistently smooth throughout, but oh well, those things happen. I suspect that's what's driving some of the feeling that DiU is the worst Jojo TV part here - DiU set a very high standard for itself at the beginning, so when it fell short of that standard it's more painful than when Season 1 or Stardust Crusaders fell short of the middling standards they set for themselves.
 

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
Part 5 will likely be the best Anime Jojo, even if it was one of the more middling for the manga.

Part 5 has a ton of great action scenes, and a pacing that should translate well.

A lot of stuff that really set part 4 apart likely just doesn't translate well to anime. They screwed up the Rat arc really badly though.
 

Jex

Member
edit: And honestly, part of the blame is on David Pro. Diamond is Unbreakable is easily the worst adaptation they've done yet, and I'm not talking about the animation issues. They've cut out so many things that I'd consider crucial to understanding what DiU and Jojo in general is about, and fail miserably at getting across what DiU should've gotten across.

It is interesting to hear that the anime doesn't translate what you consider to be important elements of the source material, because simply viewing the work as an anime series, it's clearly far superior to their previous works on almost every conceivable level.
 
I thought the main talking point of this episode (for anime-only fans) was going to be how BtD was defeated by Kira's own idiocy...

He just couldn't resist a gloat and already boasted in a similar fashion in a previous timeline, I figured it made for a perfectly fitting event.
But yes ultimately undone by his own hubris.
 

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
Can't wait to see the reactions to how Kira loses in the very end, not sure if it will be next episode or the final one though.
 

PK Gaming

Member
The anime's great, yeah, but the manga is still better.

And I'm not talking about cutting panels, I'm talking about cutting important plot points and changing the tone of entire arcs, and of the part overall. There's a structure and theme to DiU that they failed to depict.

You are exaggerating so hard right now. Everything that needed to be conveyed from the manga was conveyed in the anime. DiU has a fairly simplistic narrative with some nice plot beats, but there's no grand overarching theming that the anime misses out on. And while the anime makes some unfortunate cuts, it vastly improves on the endgame by having them naturally flow into each other, instead of them being shown one after another, so I strongly disagree with the assertion that it's strictly inferior to the manga (not to mention the various other amazing changes that make it a better watch).

Well, like, you know how DiU has a thing where it brings back characters from previous arcs, right? That goes further in the manga, because it also brings back themes from the previous arcs.

That bit with Hayato talking about Josuke appearing not being fate, but a gamble? That's a reference to Rohan's speech about "creating your own luck" from the Boy II Man fight. A manga reader might not notice that specific example, but it's there to notice, and it's one example out of many. But good luck figuring any of that out from the anime.

Oh come off it. The manga doesn't go out of its way to bring back consistent theming. It largely follows a procedural format with barely any regard for previous arcs. You're reading super hard into a line that Araki would have likely used without the previous arc anyway.

And they totally screwed up the tone of several arcs by cutting out the jokes and lighthearted banter. Like the Ratt arc in the manga is hilarious and makes Josuke very relatable, but the anime episode...isn't much like it.

THEY CUT OUT LIKE ONE LINE. "Isn't much like it" has got to be the biggest hyperbole I've seen in this thread by far.
 

Breads

Banned
someone use bites the dust so we can rewind this hate
tears.gif

There isn't any hate going on though. There are simply multiple camps between people who have enjoyed this adaptation. Some people think it's great. Some people think it's great but has a few caveats. Far as I can tell we're all still very much fans. We just disagree on a few key points.
 
Can't wait to see the reactions to how Kira loses in the very end, not sure if it will be next episode or the final one though.

I can see it now
"HEAVENS DOOR"
*writes "I will stop murdering people and severing their hands, I am a good guy now"*
And then Kira becomes yet another enemy stand user who becomes chums with the main cast.

End Part 4
...okay not really what I'm predicting.
 
Can I just say though, no matter what your thoughts are on the anime, part 4 had some great openings? Sure, they weren't the sick 3D animated stuff we got before but I really enjoyed the imagery that was present.
 
J

JeremyEtcetera

Unconfirmed Member
Can I just say though, no matter what your thoughts are on the anime, part 4 had some great openings? Sure, they weren't the sick 3D animated stuff we got before but I really enjoyed the imagery that was present.

Even though the 3d intros had nice camera sweeps and cool angles, I actually preferred the more 2-d style of the new intros in this part. They also reminded me of persona game intros.
 

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
I can see it now
"HEAVENS DOOR"
*writes "I will stop murdering people and severing their hands, I am a good guy now"*
And then Kira becomes yet another enemy stand user who becomes chums with the main cast.

End Part 4
...okay not really what I'm predicting.
Aw geez, you totally $100% got it. He gets a new outfit and his old face back.
 

Jex

Member
Jotaro and co not hearing Josuke is a lot more justified in the manga.


The distance between both groups is not directly shown, and the manga puts more emphasis on the pouring rain

So, speaking of the one complaint that I'm seeing brought up most frequently with regards to this episode e.g. Jotaro seeming ignoring a battle that's going on next to him, I feel like the biggest problem is not the visual representation of the space. It's the audio.

The manga does not have this problem because the way that the information is conveyed to us is very clear. As you can see in the manga panels above, we're explicitly shown that Jotaro doesn't actually hear the fight. How do we know this?

Fact 1 - The panel with Jotaro's reaction in does not also feature Josuke's scream. It's not included as a sound bubble.
Fact 2 - The panel also tells us that the rain is very loud.
Interpretation - From the information presented on the page, the reader then forms an interpretation of the events in their mind - namely that Jotaro can't hear what's going on because the rain is loud.

The anime screws up this very simple logic in a clumsy way.

The scene beings with Josuke screaming:


The audio of Josuke screaming continues, and the camera travels towards Jotaro, demonstrating that the sound is travelling towards him:

We cut to Jotaro, and the audio of Josuke's scream is still playing. Jotaro then reacts to the noise:


As you can see, this is a fundamental mistake because the show is literally tells us that Jotaro heard the scream by playing the scream over the visual of him reacting. In the traditional language of film, when audio is used in this manner we take it to mean that the character can hear it. Moreover, while it is also raining in the anime adaptation, the sound of the rain isn't particularly loud, and we can clearly hear the scream over the rain.

In addition, the use of the moving camera timed with the audio implies the sound is travelling towards Jotaro, whereas in the manga the layout of the manga panels does not imply this at all.

The adaptation changes the scene from Jotaro literally not hearing Josuke to Jotaro literally hearing him.

This decision the creates an apparent character inconsistency for Jotaro, because we know from experience that Jotaro is a very thorough and dedicated character who would surely have investigated this noise if he could hear it as clearly as the anime implies.
 

Desi

Member
It pisses me off incredibly that All-Star Battle charged extra for the Yoshikage Kira Playable Character DLC, but then he's a completely inferior character to Kosaku Kawajiri.
Like, to the point that I'm not even sure it's by design. Some of his attacks just straight up can't combo or link but seem designed to be able to and are next to useless without the ability to.

probably has to do with Kira being terrible at fighting. Without Sheer Heart Attack he would be clobbered by the main cast. Kousaku at least has a new range and time manipulation to make up for his slow stand.
 

Pompadour

Member
THEY CUT OUT LIKE ONE LINE. "Isn't much like it" has got to be the biggest hyperbole I've seen in this thread by far.

I want to emphasize to the anime only viewers here that the Diamond is Unbreakable adaptation is extremely faithful and they've actually cut out very little. Just a few lines or jokes here or there in some episodes. The most that they've removed, really, is part of the Superfly fight and a scene in the Cheap Trick fight.

Honestly, I prefer this to how Stardust Crusaders was handled where they injected filler (which was mostly fine) and stretched some scenes out way, way, way too long (Hol Horse holding up Polnareff in the alleyway was like half that goddamn episode).
 
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