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[jacksepticeye]

The problem I'm seeing is Jon seemed willing to debate about the topic but all Tim did was retweet Jon's post and point to it saying how silly it was prompting his followers to go after Jon.

He didn't make an attempt to debate back or talk about it even after Jon pressed on it and explained himself. He basically said "This is silly isn't it everyone?" and didn't explain himself or attempt to debate anything

I'm not saying who's right or wrong because it's such a sensitive topic online in the last year and no one is ever right it seems but it does seem a little shitty what Tim did. Then again arguing on Twitter is never a good thing so maybe that's his reasoning.

 

[Messofanego]

Doesn't help that 4chan considers JonTron a hero during all this. JonTron didn't seem to have actually watched the feminist frequency video fully, so he got on the defensive with strawmans ("I am not a savage"). Implying a false equivalency that men are objectified as much which Anita's video points out is not true (especially not even to a sexual level like "drop dead gorgeous" or abuse). Ignoring the point that it's a lazy way of justifying excessive violence against perpetrators or that these are abnormal shows of sensational violence from villains when in reality it's quite common and done by "normal" people committing most of these acts rather than cartoon villains in dark alleys like the videogames portray. Anita's video does show a positive look at abuse although it's more the boy's view with Papo and Yo. She could have picked The Path (Tale of Tales' red riding hood game) to show a case of a game that examines a tale of female abuse rather than reproduces, but maybe she never played it.

Also, holy shit why do people pick Twitter as a place for an actual debate in 140 characters? It's like literally the worst avenue, hence why you see passive-aggressiveness, snark, insults, comebacks, ad hominems. Some of these people need a messageboard!

If anyone wanted it in images, here you go (bottom to top, as usual):

So, it's now mob vs mob.

SAVAGE

UNATCO

SAVAGE

UNATCO

NO, SAVAGE

U-UNATCO?

 

[ab.aeterno]

Quite the contrary. It's refreshing to see someone unafraid to speak out and not succumb to the bullying of social justice mobs.

Are social justice mobs like the LGBT mafia or gay gangs I've heard so much about?

It's nice to see someone stand up against sjw stuff.

Any chance of getting that defined?

The problem I'm seeing is Jon seemed willing to debate about the topic but all Tim did was retweet Jon's post and point to it saying how silly it was prompting his followers to go after Jon.

He didn't make an attempt to debate back or talk about it even after Jon pressed on it and explained himself. He basically said "This is silly isn't it everyone?" and didn't explain himself or attempt to debate anything

I'm not saying who's right or wrong because it's such a sensitive topic online in the last year and no one is ever right it seems but it does seem a little shitty what Tim did. Then again arguing on Twitter is never a good thing so maybe that's his reasoning.

In what way did Jon seem willing to debate it? His tweets seem to make his opinion clear and in no way does it sound like he seems open to his opinion changing. A debate implies there's a dialogue. There's nothing resembling a dialogue by saying "This doesn't matter because video games."

 

[DICKS AHOY]

Doesn't help that 4chan considers JonTron a hero during all this. JonTron didn't seem to have actually watched the feminist frequency video fully, so he got on the defensive with strawmans ("I am not a savage"). Implying a false equivalency that men are objectified as much which Anita's video points out is not true (especially not even to a sexual level like "drop dead gorgeous" or abuse). Ignoring the point that it's a lazy way of justifying excessive violence against perpetrators or that these are abnormal shows of sensational violence from villains when in reality it's quite common and done by "normal" people committing most of these acts rather than cartoon villains in dark alleys like the videogames portray. Anita's video does show a positive look at abuse although it's more the boy's view with Papo and Yo. She could have picked The Path (Tale of Tales' red riding hood game) to show a case of a game that examines a tale of female abuse rather than reproduces, but maybe she never played it.

Also, holy shit why do people pick Twitter as a place for an actual debate in 140 characters? It's like literally the worst avenue, hence why you see passive-aggressiveness, snark, insults, comebacks, ad hominems. Some of these people need a messageboard!

If anyone wanted it in images, here you go (bottom to top, as usual):
So, it's now mob vs mob.

SAVAGE

UNATCO

SAVAGE

UNATCO

NO, SAVAGE

U-UNATCO?

Thanks for the images, do you have some shots of Tim's responses? Twitter's pretty unmanageable so I could really only see Tim's initial tweet and Jon's first response.

While I don't see the problem with Jon presenting a (dumb) opinion, I think it's more just twitter followers being dipshits than Tim maliciously setting anyone onto somebody else. Twitter really is the worst avenue to have these kinds of talks.

Any chance of getting that defined?

Sort of like the fedora neckbeard trope that basically gets applied to 'anyone I don't like', I see a million different definitions of 'Social Justice Warrior' that seem to differ with each person depending on how they see certain issues and/or the people behind the talks on those issues. Hard to define for me since while I respect Anita enough without really calling myself a fan outright, but on the other hand I do find myself laughing or rolling my eyes at the occasional example that goes well into stupid territory, like one tumblr thing I saw posted for awhile that said ALBW was prejudice towards fat people because on character nearly explodes and you have to rescue them. I'm normally under the impression stuff like that is just from a well-meaning but dopey teenager who just lacks perspective and context though.

 

[MrBadger]

Gonna side with Jon Tron on this one. I don't really consider a video argument that closes itself off from any sort of debates or discussions to be something that needs to be or should be watched, and I don't really like how Tim Schafer passive aggressively responded to Jon instead of just replying to him normally, but that goes along with arguments that close themselves off from discussion, I guess.

Let's be honest here, Youtube comments are the worst place on the internet to have discussions, especially now that Youtube has this flawed algorithm that shows the worst comment at the top (since down votes do nothing now, and the top comment has the most replies so it's always a troll or someone who's wrong). If people want to discuss her content, they're better off doing it on sites like NeoGAF and Reddit.

That's not entirely relevant to the Jon drama, but I don't think Anita shutting off comments is a valid criticism.

 

[Corpekata]

The debate reasoning is hilarious. Maybe you'd have a debate if you open with things a little less intellectually dishonest than "She doesn't allow comments!" He's not dumb. He knows full well what he's doing.

Anyone that says stuff like that is not really after a debate. The type of stuff he said is the easiest points to dismantle if you're willing to actually debate on the topic.

 

[Jamix012]

I'm definitely on Jontron's side here. I don't think he once attacked anyone ((in this case)) or discriminated against a group of people and yet he's being targeted himself? He simply voiced his opinion and people don't seem to agree with it. I don't think Schafer is nessecarily "wrong" either, but I think his passive agressive backlash against Jon was unnecessary and unprofessional.

Are social justice mobs like the LGBT mafia or gay gangs I've heard so much about?

It's irritating how people try to trivialize the hurtful and oppressive actions of some groups to make it seem like they're irrelevant.

In what way did Jon seem willing to debate it? His tweets seem to make his opinion clear and in no way does it sound like he seems open to his opinion changing. A debate implies there's a dialogue. There's nothing resembling a dialogue by saying "This doesn't matter because video games."

Tim offered his view, Jon offered an opposing view, Tim issued a passive-agressive comment. That was literally the start of it. What Jon did wrong here is beyond me. If you disagree with his view on Sarkeesian's video(s), fine. I don't think he made particularly eloquent points at all, personally, but I don't think there was anything the did that warranted the backlash that occurred.

 

[jacksepticeye]

Are social justice mobs like the LGBT mafia or gay gangs I've heard so much about?


Any chance of getting that defined?


In what way did Jon seem willing to debate it? His tweets seem to make his opinion clear and in no way does it sound like he seems open to his opinion changing. A debate implies there's a dialogue. There's nothing resembling a dialogue by saying "This doesn't matter because video games."

Well he did try to bring up some examples of male extremes and showed the Conan thing and replied to a good few people expressing his willingness to stay in the conversation directly tagging Tim multiple times.

Tim just seemed to publicly shame him and sic his followers on Jon.

I didn't really read much into it though so I could be wrong, mine is just a glancing opinion.

 

[GolazoDan]

Are social justice mobs like the LGBT mafia or gay gangs I've heard so much about?

Just wait until the Baseball Furies show up.

As an aside, I know this is kinda hard to avoid when you're a high profile person on Twitter, but I really hate it when people basically set their fanbase on another user. Whether they're right or wrong, it doesn't really achieve much other than shout one side down. There's an article about Simon Pegg, Ricky Gervais and Noel Fielding doing that very thing.

 

[wonzo]

It's irritating how people try to trivialize the hurtful and oppressive actions of some groups to make it seem like they're irrelevant.

ah yes the hurtful actions of "gay gangs" seeking equal rights. such opression

 

[andymcc]

ah yes the hurtful actions of "gay gangs" seeking equal rights. such opression

b-b-but what about my feelings, my struggle as a video game playing straight male!!

 

[Lime]

To someone from GAF

: "I'm no savage" says man infamous for shouting "nigga," "retarded," and "faggot," and who also agreed that feminism is like racist lynchings

JonTron has proven to be a bigot. I dont see why anyone would choose to be associated with him considering his views on other people.

 

[Gaogaogao]

It's irritating how people try to trivialize the hurtful and oppressive actions of some groups to make it seem like they're irrelevant.

please go on about these hurtful and oppressive actions. and by what groups, exactly? they are no more relevant after this statement.

 

[Spaghetti]

i... i think he's trying to make a half point(?) but is doing it very poorly

i mean, i have my own reservations when it comes to disabling comments for what i would classify as informative/educational works. yes, anita sarkeesian got a lot of personal hate, but tropes vs women is being put out there as a dissection of media in almost a lecture-style format. without any proper open discussion of those works, it reduces the audience to polarising opinions of either being for or against the content within them, with anybody trying to explain their view in more detail getting classified and sometimes vilified as being in the supporting or opposing camp.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

To someone from GAF



JonTron has proven to be a bigot. I dont see why anyone would choose to be associated with him considering his views on other people.

Where did the first and last parts come from? Only remember him blowing up over not knowing when to shut up about the whole Quinn stuff last week.

Also while I remember thinking Jon's random 'cumfaggots' quip on GG was out of nowhere and kind of dumb given their audience (no clue if he bothered commenting on it at any point one way or the other), I really wouldn't put the word 'retarded' on the same level as homophobic or racist slurs.

 

[G-Fex]

Ah drama drama drama

so much drama.

 

[ab.aeterno]

Well he did try to bring up some examples of male extremes and showed the Conan thing and replied to a good few people expressing his willingness to stay in the conversation directly tagging Tim multiple times.

Tim just seemed to publicly shame him and sic his followers on Jon.

I didn't really read much into it though so I could be wrong, mine is just a glancing opinion.

Agree to disagree then I suppose, as that's not my take on what happened.

It's irritating how people try to trivialize the hurtful and oppressive actions of some groups to make it seem like they're irrelevant.

Is this directed at me? If so, you can go ahead and direct it at me, instead of couching it in a vague "people." It's irritating how people try to trivialize the views and opinions of the hurt and marginalized because they don't like hearing them.

 

[Zukuu]

Lol wtf is happening. How did he do anything wrong? He just pointed out that EVERYONE is objectified in video games. It's not a woman-specific problem. That doesn't mean that it's not a problem that women are depicted in such a way, just that men are too. It should be changed regardless of gender. That's also why I can't stand feminist frequency. She's so deluded and myopic, that she neglects to bring an objective viewpoint in her videos. That nickname alone is really telling. I don't know why people take her seriously; there are way better videos and discussions about the topic by other people, that aren't as aggressive and one sided, who can see a bigger picture and thus a a far more fundamental problem.
Kinda torn tho, I like Schafer usually.

i... i think he's trying to make a half point(?) but is doing it very poorly

i mean, i have my own reservations when it comes to disabling comments for what i would classify as informative/educational works. yes, anita sarkeesian got a lot of personal hate, but tropes vs women is being put out there as a dissection of media in almost a lecture-style format. without any proper open discussion of those works, it reduces the audience to polarising opinions of either being for or against the content within them, with anybody trying to explain their view in more detail getting classified and sometimes vilified as being in the supporting or opposing camp.

I like how you put it. That's exactly true and what bothers me the most.

 

[Tapejara]

I love JonTron's videos, but his opinions on this kind of stuff leave me disappointed. Especially with him using arguments like "men are sexualized too" or "it's just a video game."

 

[Labrys]

Whole thing has left a bad taste in my mouth, I'm honestly even more disappointed in him. Maybe he can grow a pair and apologize for all the shit he's been spouting lately.

 

[Mabef]

I'm definitely on Jontron's side here. I don't think he once attacked anyone ((in this case)) or discriminated against a group of people and yet he's being targeted himself? He simply voiced his opinion and people don't seem to agree with it. I don't think Schafer is nessecarily "wrong" either, but I think his passive agressive backlash against Jon was unnecessary and unprofessional.

The backlash occurs because, no matter whether Jon's opinion is bred in ignorance or true bigotry, it is an opinion that is harmful to discussion (and this is an important discussion).

Imagine you're at a party, trying to start a conversation with someone else. Ask yourself if this is conducive to discussion.

"Hi stranger. I think women are portrayed poorly in games."
"Yeah, well, so are men."

 

[Jamix012]

Is this directed at me? If so, you can go ahead and direct it at me, instead of couching it in a vague "people." It's irritating how people try to trivialize the views and opinions of the hurt and marginalized because they don't like hearing them.

I thought it was clearly obvious by how I quoted you, but I can say it straight out that yes it was to you, but I was also referencing a general problem amongst radical social justice communities.

b-b-but what about my feelings, my struggle as a video game playing straight male!!

It's as if I was actually straight! (Hint: I'm not.)

please go on about these hurtful and oppressive actions. and by what groups, exactly? they are no more relevant after this statement.

First off, do you think the people hurling insults at JonTron for his opinions aren't hurtful? What about the communities on tumblr that advocate for killing Cisgendered people or Openly Anti-Male radical feminists who actively claim that men are sub-human and specifically target and bully men and women alike who don't agree with them. Don't get me wrong, the problems towards the gay community and women for example far outstrip these by a large margin, but it's straight up embarrassing how many people in the community trivialise these occurances or act like they're not going on with things like "White Tears" or some of the comments above. etc. One can both strive for progress in one's movement and not be an asshole at the same time.

In regards to Jontron, I'm just saying I don't think he's wrong in this case. When he called that one guy a retard, that was obviously over the line, but verbal attacks on the internet (for which people always seem to get defensive about when directed at non cis-white males) are unacceptable to anybody.

The backlash occurs because, no matter whether Jon's opinion is bred in ignorance or true bigotry, it is an opinion that is harmful to discussion (and this is an important discussion).

Imagine you're at a party, trying to start a conversation with someone else. Ask yourself if this is conducive to discussion.

"Hi stranger. I think women are portrayed poorly in games."
"Yeah, well, so are men."

So after that, what? You decide to say something like "Oh well it's really say to see someone so beloved as you, stranger, is just an asshole." If you don't like someone's opinion, engage it, rather than resorting to ad hominems. If the continue to be ignorant than just ignore them. Personal attacks are NEVER the answer.

 

[petghost]

The backlash occurs because, no matter whether Jon's opinion is bred in ignorance or true bigotry, it is an opinion that is harmful to discussion (and this is an important discussion).

Imagine you're at a party, trying to start a conversation with someone else. Ask yourself if this is conducive to discussion.

"Hi stranger. I think women are portrayed poorly in games."
"Yeah, well, so are men."

that seems like the foundation for a reasonable conversation though....both sides of the topic are being represented. i'd rather have an honest discussion with someone i disagreed with than just having someone tell me to either agree with them or to not vocalize a dissenting opinion.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

I can't believe a guy who's been known to less loose with "nigger" "faggot" and "retarded" would respond in such a way or having such viewpoints like "hey men have problems too what about meeeee"

 

[DICKS AHOY]

The backlash occurs because, no matter whether Jon's opinion is bred in ignorance or true bigotry, it is an opinion that is harmful to discussion (and this is an important discussion).

Imagine you're at a party, trying to start a conversation with someone else. Ask yourself if this is conducive to discussion.

"Hi stranger. I think women are portrayed poorly in games."
"Yeah, well, so are men."

They honestly both sound like really weird, dumb ways to break the ice to somebody you don't know at a social gathering like a party.

Discussions/debates about this normally work far better in a context where you're going to expect to challenge each other's perspectives in a mannered way, rather than the vitriolic fights they do on Twitter. I know the reason why you don't see it often at this point, but it probably would help things if there was a message board where you could have these sort of conversations without flamewars breaking out if someone has a pretty outlandish or backwards view on the topic yet genuinely wants to talk about it. Even GAF's FF threads aren't immune to dumb mudslinging contests.

 

[GamingIsDead]

Glad to see that Jon is on the right side of the issue.

 

[APF]

Thanks for the images, do you have some shots of Tim's responses?

As far as I can tell there was no real conversation. Tim just retweeted the "I am not a savage" comment and said, "That last one made me sad. From a guy with 1.2M YouTube subscribers." The rest is all Jon.

Here's his feed: https://twitter.com/TimOfLegend

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

Tim offered his view, Jon offered an opposing view, Tim issued a passive-agressive comment. That was literally the start of it. What Jon did wrong here is beyond me. If you disagree with his view on Sarkeesian's video(s), fine. I don't think he made particularly eloquent points at all, personally, but I don't think there was anything the did that warranted the backlash that occurred.

Tim recommended a video, Tim gets deluged with idiocy, some of the idiocy (though far from the most vitriolic) is from one of the most popular video game personalities on YouTube, Tim publicly expresses his disappointment that someone with this large an audience and this representative of the subculture would say things this dumb, hence the whole point of Tim encouraging the entire gaming industry to watch the video; Tim at no point expresses his desire to personally and patiently teach Intro To Feminism and Critical Thinking to Twitter commenters today.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

As far as I can tell there was no real conversation. Tim just retweeted the "I am not a savage" comment and said, "That last one made me sad. From a guy with 1.2M YouTube subscribers." The rest is all Jon.

Here's his feed: https://twitter.com/TimOfLegend

If that's all Schafer said I'm really not seeing how that's a call to arms to hound Jon down.

 

[APF]

If that's all Schafer said I'm really not seeing how that's a call to arms to hound Jon down.

Well I think we can all agree it's cause to tell Tim to kill himself.

 

[RadarScope1]

LOL at the "men, too" argument. A buff dude swinging an axe and slaying monsters in a product marketed toward young males is not objectification of men. That's a power fantasy. Is there ANY basic logic on the Internet at this point?

 

[GamingIsDead]

If that's all Schafer said I'm really not seeing how that's a call to arms to hound Jon down.

He retweeted the message to all of his followers instead of just responding to jon.

 

[Cartman86]

I thought it was clearly obvious by how I quoted you, but I can say it straight out that yes it was to you, but I was also referencing a general problem amongst radical social justice communities.



It's as if I was actually straight! (Hint: I'm not.)



First off, do you think the people hurling insults at JonTron for his opinions aren't hurtful? What about the communities on tumblr that advocate for killing Cisgendered people or Openly Anti-Male radical feminists who actively claim that men are sub-human and specifically target and bully men and women alike who don't agree with them. Don't get me wrong, the problems towards the gay community and women for example far outstrip these by a large margin, but it's straight up embarrassing how many people in the community trivialise these occurances or act like they're not going on with things like "White Tears" or some of the comments above. etc. You can both try and progress your movement and not be an asshole.

In regards to Jontron, I'm just saying I don't think he's wrong in this case. When he called that one guy a retard, that was obviously over the line, but verbal attacks on the internet (for which people always seem to get defensive about when directed at non cis-white males) are unacceptable to anybody.

This is the guy who said this

and linked to this NSFW comic. He's an immature ass hole.

 

[Zukuu]

LOL at the "men, too" argument. A buff dude swinging an axe and slaying monsters in a product marketed toward young males is not objectification of men. That's a power fantasy. Is there ANY basic logic on the Internet at this point?

...so little girls don't want to be beautiful woman and princesses? LOL

 

[NotLiquid]

If that's all Schafer said I'm really not seeing how that's a call to arms to hound Jon down.

Popularity is toxic unfortunately. Once you get to that point, words start to mean something more. Hell, just look at the infamy Fish amassed by what originally was only really two eyebrow-raising comments.

It's really uncool that both Jon and Tim's followers have to butt heads. It's really just perspective and neither of them handled it particularly gracefully.

This is the guy who said this

You know, Zoe and JonTron were about the two only people during the GameJam project who ever had a semblance of a drama stint that the director of the project desperately wanted. Incidentally, the writer who chronicled the Game Jam made it clear that Jon was the one who wanted to take the disagreements off camera and have them resolved on the basis that he allegedly did not want a recording to immortalize Zoe as "that one person who had beef with JonTron".

 

[RadarScope1]

He retweeted the message to all of his followers instead of just responding to jon.

I don't see that as passive aggressive or "sending" followers to get on anyone's case. That's just how Twitter works. You RT stuff you finding interesting or noteworthy.

 

[jacksepticeye]

Agree to disagree then I suppose, as that's not my take on what happened.

Yep, best solution.

I guess this is what causes all these things too, some people think one person is right and the others think the other person is right. Best not to get too deeply invested in it I suppose

 

[DICKS AHOY]

He retweeted the message to all of his followers instead of just responding to jon.

I don't see how expressing disappointment in Jon's opinion equals calling people to harass Jon, and it's likely an argument he's already seen several, several times hence the lack of elaborating on it.

It's on his Twitter followers if they took it upon themselves to throw shit Jon's way, and likewise on Jon's fans when they did the same to Tim.

 

[RadarScope1]

...so little girls don't want to be beautiful woman and princesses? LOL

Sure they do. And?

 

[Mabef]

They honestly both sound like really weird, dumb ways to break the ice to somebody you don't know at a social gathering like a party.

Haha You just need to go to the weird parties.

So after that, what? You decide to say something like "Oh well it's really say to see someone so beloved as you, stranger, is just an asshole." If you don't like someone's opinion, engage it, rather than resorting to ad hominems. If the continue to be ignorant than just ignore them. Personal attacks are NEVER the answer.

that seems like the foundation for a reasonable conversation though....both sides of the topic are being represented. i'd rather have an honest discussion with someone i disagreed with than just having someone tell me to either agree with them or to not vocalize a dissenting opinion.

No no no, but you're close! The thing is, these are not both sides of the argument. These are two separate arguments. Women being misrepresented doesn't negate that men are misrepresented, and vice versa. They are two separate issues that, if you'd like, could be filed under the umbrella issue of "videogames treat gender poorly", or something like that.

And so the issue is, that when Person A brings up something that they want to talk about, you are responding with something different that you'd rather talk about. It can be construed as rude!

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

Lol wtf is happening. How did he do anything wrong? He just pointed out that EVERYONE is objectified in video games. It's not a woman-specific problem. That doesn't mean that it's not a problem that women are depicted in such a way, just that men are too. It should be changed regardless of gender. That's also why I can't stand feminist frequency. She's so deluded and myopic, that she neglects to bring an objective viewpoint in her videos. That nickname alone is really telling. I don't know why people take her seriously; there are way better videos and discussions about the topic by other people, that aren't as aggressive and one sided, who can see a bigger picture and thus a a far more fundamental problem.
Kinda torn tho, I like Schafer usually.


I like how you put it. That's exactly true and what bothers me the most.

Regardless of the quality of anything Sarkessian says, pointing it that "both are objectified" doesn't mean anything. Blah blah two wrongs don't make a right, and what is so wrong with demanding a higher quality of writing and representation in entertainment? There's a difference between something not trying to be intelligent or thought-provoking, and something just being stupid and insulting to its audience. I don't understand why people are so resistant to that. I don't like the sexy female bullshit because really, it's insulting to me. I don't want to have any involvement in any of that pandering bullshit, it makes me feel dumb just by association.

And then we have crap like the "tough sassy female" who's tough but also can't resist saying some dumb shit like "Gurls can fight too!" with a stoic stare that's supposed to be badass, as if we're all too stupid to understand such things without it being conveyed through words with no subtlety whatsoever. People often confuse "good female character" with "tough female character," and then use the existence of a few tough female characters to claim that the poorly-written female characters don't matter, or just don't even exist. Again, no idea why it's so awful for anybody to want higher standards of writing and characterization.

 

[Tapejara]

...so little girls don't want to be beautiful woman and princesses? LOL

How many times do games have you playing as the princess?

Regardless of the quality of anything Sarkessian says, pointing it that "both are objectified" doesn't mean anything. Blah blah two wrongs don't make a right, and what is so wrong with demanding a higher quality of writing and representation in entertainment? There's a difference between something not trying to be intelligent or thought-provoking, and something just being stupid and insulting to its audience. I don't understand why people are so resistant to that. I don't like the sexy female bullshit because really, it's insulting to me. I don't want to have any involvement in any of that pandering bullshit, it makes me feel dumb just by association.

And then we have crap like the "tough sassy female" who's tough but also can't resist saying some dumb shit like "Gurls can fight too!" and play it completely straight with a stare that's supposed to say "badass." People often confuse "good female character" with "tough female character," and then use the existence of a few tough female characters to claim that the poorly-written female characters don't matter, or just don't even exist. Again, no idea why it's so awful for anybody to want higher standards of writing and characterization.

Eloquently put.

i mean...is it possible to disagree with anita and not be considered a horrible human being? was it just that jon's point was dumb or is it that anita and the movement surrounding her is completely bulletproof and un-criticizable? is it that males don't have the insight to criticize this movement because of the fact that they are the status quo? it just seems like any form of criticism no matter how mild usually gets shot down while everybody piles on the person who voiced it.

i certainly dont agree with jon's opinions but the level of discussion around these topics has just gotten so extreme on both sides.

Of course it's okay to disagree with her. Hell, I disagree with a number of things she says. But I think Jon essentially saying "well this happens to men too" doesn't really contribute to the discussion. Instead it comes off as trying to deflect the issue and saying that better characterization of female - and male characters by extension - isn't necessary. That's what I take issue with.

I will agree that there is a level of extremity on both sides.

 

[petghost]

i mean...is it possible to disagree with anita and not be considered a horrible human being? was it just that jon's point was dumb or is it that anita and the movement surrounding her is completely bulletproof and un-criticizable? is it that males don't have the insight to criticize this movement because of the fact that they are the status quo? it just seems like any form of criticism no matter how mild usually gets shot down while everybody piles on the person who voiced it.

i certainly dont agree with jon's opinions but the level of discussion around these topics has just gotten so extreme on both sides.

 

[Lime]

He retweeted the message to all of his followers instead of just responding to jon.

When you make shameful and oppressive statements based on uninformed opinions, you're setting yourself up for being shamed publicly.

Not that that was what Tim did. He just exposed Jon's simpleminded opinion.

 

[jett]

This isn't surprising at all. I remember him making some racist comments while on Game Grumps.

 

[jacksepticeye]

I don't see how expressing disappointment in Jon's opinion equals calling people to harass Jon, and it's likely an argument he's already seen several, several times hence the lack of elaborating on it.

It's on his Twitter followers if they took it upon themselves to throw shit Jon's way, and likewise on Jon's fans when they did the same to Tim.

I think it's more the fact that he retweeted and then basically publicly shamed Jon pointing out his disappointment. Which inevitably will lead to people being interested and scoping out the source

But yeah he didn't directly tell them to harass Jon

This isn't surprising at all. I remember him making some racist comments while on Game Grumps.

But Racism and Sexism are different. Are you implying he was gonna do one because he did the other?

 

[DICKS AHOY]

This is the guy who said this

and linked to this NSFW comic. He's an immature ass hole.

Jontron retweeting that comic was absolutely fucking infuriating, and I say this as someone who while feeling she didn't remotely deserve the harassment she got, doesn't have an overly high opinion of Quinn either.

Absolutely a case of Jon (and the artist) trying to act like an expert on a situation they only partially paid attention to at best.

i mean...is it possible to disagree with anita and not be considered a horrible human being? was it just that jon's point was dumb or is it that anita and the movement surrounding her is completely bulletproof and un-criticizable? is it that males don't have the insight to criticize this movement because of the fact that they are the status quo? it just seems like any form of criticism no matter how mild usually gets shot down while everybody piles on the person who voiced it.

i certainly dont agree with jon's opinions but the level of discussion around these topics has just gotten so extreme on both sides.

You're definitely able to disagree with Anita I think, it's just in Jon's case this is coming off weeks of stupid bullshit he's been tweeting, whether it's for attention or feeling like he's the 'victim' of political correctness. I feel a bit bad since I do think to a certain extent he's just kind of ignorant about a lot of this and just keeps putting his foot in his mouth, but he should really have wised up by now, god.

Anyway, I feel overall Anita's overall points behind each video are good, it's just when you get down to her analysis for each game it can get fairly simplistic to the point where I really question if she was really the best feminist writer to be tackling this series, she sometimes misappropriates the content of certain games (sometimes to admittedly obnoxious degrees) and a segment of her fanbase is trigger happy at anyone who doesn't agree with her 100%, like most online personalities do*.

I don't think there's going to be that great of a dialog between what was worth taking away from Feminist Frequency and what points were open to debate until it's ended and some of the dumber, superfluous drama surrounding it is gone.The series is good (not great) overall, but it puts a perfectly valid argument out into the public sphere which had been pushed to the side for decades so it was still worthwhile, I think.

*I remember one girl on Twitter having one journalist patronizingly tell her she was the victim of internalized misogyny when she said she didn't fully agree with a certain Anita video. Hardly a case for every fan, but you do have the occasional idiot who makes it difficult to give a response that isn't a black or white-style verdict publicly.

 

[ab.aeterno]

I thought it was clearly obvious by how I quoted you, but I can say it straight out that yes it was to you, but I was also referencing a general problem amongst radical social justice communities.

So if you dislike hurtful marginalization then why are you calling out me making light of someone using a loaded phrase to frame this as constant bullying by "mobs" of people to anyone who disagrees with them instead of the person making that sweeping generalization? In what way was I dismissing or minimizing online abuse instead of calling out someone using a hilariously loaded term like "social justice mob" by pointing out its unintended similarities to other examples of gross grouping language or phrases?

 

[jett]

But Racism and Sexism are different. Are you implying he was gonna do one because he did the other?

I guess the only thing I'm implying is that I already knew he was a shitty person.

 

[Lime]

i mean...is it possible to disagree with anita and not be considered a horrible human being? was it just that jon's point was dumb or is it that anita and the movement surrounding her is completely bulletproof and un-criticizable? is it that males don't have the insight to criticize this movement because of the fact that they are the status quo? it just seems like any form of criticism no matter how mild usually gets shot down while everybody piles on the person who voiced it.

i certainly dont agree with jon's opinions but the level of discussion around these topics has just gotten so extreme on both sides.

Problem is that a lot of the arguments have been rebutted ad naseum and that if the people involved actually just sat down and listened, they would realize how non-controversial and obvious the points that are being made by Sarkeesian and others are.

The counterarguments are silly and the amount of energy and resistance against something as innocent as "Hey, maybe we should reflect more on how we represent women in video games" are frankly embarassing. The fact that people think this is so controversial is almost making me want to quit working with, making and analyzing video games. I already know others who have given up on the medium thanks to the toxic racist and sexist and homophobic culture around it.

It's also quite telling that a lot of the people howling against Sarkeesian and others are White dudes. It's absurd.