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[Zukuu]

Regardless of the quality of anything Sarkessian says, pointing it that "both are objectified" doesn't mean anything. Blah blah two wrongs don't make a right, and what is so wrong with demanding a higher quality of writing and representation in entertainment? There's a difference between something not trying to be intelligent or thought-provoking, and something just being stupid and insulting to its audience. I don't understand why people are so resistant to that. I don't like the sexy female bullshit because really, it's insulting to me. I don't want to have any involvement in any of that pandering bullshit, it makes me feel dumb just by association.

And then we have crap like the "tough sassy female" who's tough but also can't resist saying some dumb shit like "Gurls can fight too!" and play it completely straight with a stare that's supposed to say "badass." People often confuse "good female character" with "tough female character," and then use the existence of a few tough female characters to claim that the poorly-written female characters don't matter, or just don't even exist. Again, no idea why it's so awful for anybody to want higher standards of writing and characterization.

That is what I've seen myself in just about every thread about this topic. Tough woman = good female character, which is just not true. To me, a good written character has depth and the most important thing: a motif. Why can't a woman/men be timid and good written or "sexy" and good written? Because those NEED to and DO exist as well. Any (important) character should be a dimensional being with strengths, flaws and unique characteristics.

While I think it's pretty far fetched, there is a video that was giving another perspective on Peach's character and her importance to the Mario games in contrast to Anita's view point on her in her first video. I thought seeing both makes for a pretty interesting basis for discussion.

 

[Myggen]

...so little girls don't want to be beautiful woman and princesses? LOL

Oh come on, not this again. People aren't arguing that "beautiful women" shouldn't be in video games. It's the "tits in you face, ass in the air" part of the portrayal of women in a lot of games we're discussing here. Not many 5 year old girls dream of having their huge tits hanging out of way too small clothes when they're doing stuff that would normally require a lot more clothes.

 

[RadarScope1]

How many times do games have you playing as the princess?

Right. But it's not even that - lots and lots of people have issues with the way stuff is marketed to little girls, too. It's that the counter argument used here is logically incorrect.

EDIT: And to be honest, I would love to see some true objectification of men in traditional/core games because that would mean there's a large audience of women playing those games (not just Candy Crush or the Sims).

 

[Tapejara]

Right. But it's not even that - lots and lots of people have issues with the way stuff is marketed to little girls, too. It's that the counter argument used here is logically incorrect.

Oh yeah, for sure. I was just pointing out that the argument "girls want to be princesses" doesn't hold when so many games are about saving the princess, not actually being the princess. There's definitely issues with how women are portrayed as well.

 

[Zukuu]

Problem is that a lot of the arguments have been rebutted ad naseum and that if the people involved actually just sat down and listened, they would realize how non-controversial and obvious the points that are being made by Sarkeesian and others are.

The counterarguments are silly and the amount of energy and resistance against something as innocent as "Hey, maybe we should reflect more on how we represent women in video games" are frankly embarassing. The fact that people think this is so controversial is almost making me want to quit working with, making and analyzing video games. I already know others who have given up on the medium thanks to the toxic racist and sexist and homophobic culture around it.

It's also quite telling that a lot of the people howling against Sarkeesian and others are White dudes. It's absurd.

I don't anyone is arguing with what she says, it's about HOW she says it and how unprofessionally she enforces her point of view with cherry picked and out-of-context-ripped examples, while willingly ignoring other aspects that put the shown scene or character in another light. That and the lack of being objective due to her mindset. Like someone said earlier, it's more like a "lecture" then trying to make a point.

Right. But it's not even that - lots and lots of people have issues with the way stuff is marketed to little girls, too. It's that the counter argument used here is logically incorrect.

A buff dude swinging an axe and slaying monsters in a product marketed toward young males

lots and lots of people have issues with the way stuff is marketed to little girls, too

Double standards much? Why can't both be terrible, stale and bad?

 

[RadarScope1]

Oh yeah, for sure. I was just pointing out that the argument "girls want to be princesses" doesn't hold when so many games are about saving the princess, not actually being the princess. There's definitely issues with how women are portrayed as well.

Yep, it's pretty obvious to anyone who's paying attention.

 

[RadarScope1]

I don't anyone is arguing with what she says, it's about HOW she says it and how unprofessionally she enforces her point of view with cherry picked and out-of-context-ripped examples, while willingly ignoring other aspects that put the shown scene or character in another light. That and the lack of being objective due to her mindset. Like someone said earlier, it's more like a "lecture" then trying to make a point.

Isn't a "lecture" just a way of making a point? Isn't that what a college class or a TED talk or a newspaper op/ed are doing?

 

[Messofanego]

I can't believe a guy who's been known to less loose with "nigger" "faggot" and "retarded" would respond in such a way or having such viewpoints like "hey men have problems too what about meeeee"

I know about the "retarded" thing on Twitter, but where has he said "nigger" or "faggot"?

On Game Grumps? Anyone got timestamped links?

 

[MrBadger]

I know about the "retarded" thing on Twitter, but where has he said "nigger" or "faggot"?

On Game Grumps? Anyone got timestamped links?

I think this is what people are talking about when they talk about Jon saying that.

 

[NotLiquid]

I know about the "retarded" thing on Twitter, but where has he said "nigger" or "faggot"?

On Game Grumps? Anyone got timestamped links?

The former was in one of the Sonic 06 episodes. I forget the context but I think Jon was attempting a stereotypical parody of some sort and basically went "I put a hole in that *honk censor*" multiple times with Barry adding in awkward text to it. I always questioned why that section wasn't outright cut if the other Grumps weren't okay with it since it was one of the many parts in 06 where they basically did nothing.

The latter I think was in another 06 episode when Arin and Jon were talking throughout the episode about what they should call their fans, with the last second of the video ending with Jon saying "we should call our fans cumf****s". It wasn't censored there but it was basically an off-beat "joke" ending to the video.

I haven't watched Game Grumps in a while but I think Arin and Danny add Trigger Warnings to certain episodes nowadays.

 

[Mabef]

i mean...is it possible to disagree with anita and not be considered a horrible human being? was it just that jon's point was dumb or is it that anita and the movement surrounding her is completely bulletproof and un-criticizable? is it that males don't have the insight to criticize this movement because of the fact that they are the status quo? it just seems like any form of criticism no matter how mild usually gets shot down while everybody piles on the person who voiced it.

i certainly dont agree with jon's opinions but the level of discussion around these topics has just gotten so extreme on both sides.

There are absolutely disagreements to be made, and I wish people didn't feel attacked for doing so. Personally, Red Dead is one of my favorite games and Anita challenged it. I'm going to have to think about that criticism a lot, because my gut isn't on board. I loved that game's writing. But I don't have a fully formed opinion yet.

Women have a huge advantage with these discussions because they are women, and this discussion is about women. Men have to go through the extra (and slightly impossible) task of seeing the world through the eyes of a woman before we're on equal footing. So it's always smart to value a woman's opinion on the matter.

 

[HK-47]

So this is mainly a case of the fanbases escalating the drama?

 

[ZealousD]

I don't think we need to be discussing the merits of Anita Sarkessian in this thread. We have other threads for that.

Also, Twitter drama is stupid. I think both Tim and Jon could have handled things a bit better. Sadly it's just a bit too common for people to say too damn much on Twitter these days.

 

[freethoughtbubble]

This is the guy who said this

and linked to this NSFW comic. He's an immature ass hole.

Wow. I always knew that Jon wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed, but I wasn't aware he was jack ass on top of that.

 

[shacklesmcgee]

The former was in one of the Sonic 06 episodes. I forget the context but I think Jon was attempting a stereotypical parody of some sort and basically went "I put a hole in that *honk censor*" multiple times with Barry adding in awkward text to it. I always questioned why that section wasn't outright cut if the other Grumps weren't okay with it since it was one of the many parts in 06 where they basically did nothing.

The latter I think was in another 06 episode when Arin and Jon were talking throughout the episode about what they should call their fans, with the last second of the video ending with Jon saying "we should call our fans cumf****s". It wasn't censored there but it was basically an off-beat "joke" ending to the video.

I haven't watched Game Grumps in a while but I think Arin and Danny add Trigger Warnings to certain episodes nowadays.

This is the guy who said this

and linked to this NSFW comic. He's an immature ass hole.

Why are people defending this ass clown?

 

[Lime]

Why are people defending this ass clown?

They have had it with the oppression by the gangs of gays and women and people of color!! Finally someone courageous and admirable stands up and tells these oppressive social justice gangs that they've had and they will not take this shit any longer. If they want to use the N word, slutshame a woman, or use faggot as a swear word, they sure as hell should be allowed to without any form of repercussions!

 

[SliceSabre]

Problem is that a lot of the arguments have been rebutted ad naseum and that if the people involved actually just sat down and listened, they would realize how non-controversial and obvious the points that are being made by Sarkeesian and others are.

The counterarguments are silly and the amount of energy and resistance against something as innocent as "Hey, maybe we should reflect more on how we represent women in video games" are frankly embarassing. The fact that people think this is so controversial is almost making me want to quit working with, making and analyzing video games. I already know others who have given up on the medium thanks to the toxic racist and sexist and homophobic culture around it.

It's also quite telling that a lot of the people howling against Sarkeesian and others are White dudes. It's absurd.

This is basically saying: "No you don't understand. Everything we're saying is right. IF you disagree you simply don't understand at all and are part of the problem!"

That's not a discussion. That's being put down and talked down to.

And to your last point I'm a black male who doesn't entirely agree with the things Anita says as well. So which point about me are you going to attack? Me being male? But wait there are certainly more white, female video game main characters than there are black male ones!

A lot of this stuff with JonTron is his fanbase and the fanbase of his critics taking it too far and blowing it up not so much the big names behind it.

 

[Messofanego]

I think this is what people are talking about when they talk about Jon saying that.

The former was in one of the Sonic 06 episodes. I forget the context but I think Jon was attempting a stereotypical parody of some sort and basically went "I put a hole in that *honk censor*" multiple times with Barry adding in awkward text to it. I always questioned why that section wasn't outright cut if the other Grumps weren't okay with it since it was one of the many parts in 06 where they basically did nothing.

The latter I think was in another 06 episode when Arin and Jon were talking throughout the episode about what they should call their fans, with the last second of the video ending with Jon saying "we should call our fans cumf****s". It wasn't censored there but it was basically an off-beat "joke" ending to the video.

I haven't watched Game Grumps in a while but I think Arin and Danny add Trigger Warnings to certain episodes nowadays.

In this video for Mega Man 7, they start with Freeze Cracker and then at 1:28 starts saying "faggot". Then later he says "the f word is a bad word. Actually, that's a word I don't say anymore."
Egoraptor: "Really?"
Jontron: "Yeah, not much. Ok, I'm not for censorship but it's like the n word. You don't want to say it."
Egoraptor: "I'm sorry if you're offended, folks, but we are the Game Grumps. We're not Republicans...I tell jokes. I'm not afraid of telling jokes."
Jontron: "I'm not crude to be crude."

"Cumfaggot"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwAjdTXPqfE#t=10m14s

They never use that term again apparently to call their fans and just use "lovelies".

 

[Evil Monkey DTT]

Well, I don't lie my idea of his character has changed drastically of the course of reading what is post here and his responses on twitter. ;_; I don't like this, I don't know who to like anymore.

Except Tim, he has been and always will be my lord and savior.

 

[ObbyDent]

Jeez, people. Give it a fucking rest. Just let it goooo.

 

[DCharlie]

I had no idea who JonTron was until last week , i clicked on the shmups video and basically got a more annoying Peter Griffin fnar-fnar'ing through "crazy Japanese stuff"

I've not even caught up on today yet.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Man I didn't even realize there was all this drama. I can't get mad at Jon, because he sounds as opinionated as some of my friends. Where they're cool 99% of the time, but during that 1% they want to tell you their opinion you basically realize just how deep some of their views go.

I'm not gonna defend Jon, just like I don't defend my friends when they do the same. They choose battles they can't win and won't drop them. The difference is Jon entertains many people and lives off the internet. If that's the case, learn to keep thoughts like these in more personal territory/sites, like a private facebook.

I'll still enjoy JonTron videos, it'll just get a bit annoying that the comments section will be filled with accusations and insults.

 

[RubberJohnny]

I don't know how you'd conclude that he's not in the wrong here. Regardless of your views on the topic, I think everyone can agree that harassment is utterly wrong.

He really shouldn't be in such a prominent position, and I've half a mind to contact his network and ask them if this is the sort of stuff they want associated with them.

 

[SZips]

He really shouldn't be in such a prominent position, and I've half a mind to contact his network and ask them if this is the sort of stuff they want associated with them.

I can't tell if you're serious or not.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

He makes silly videos about him reviewing older games for the youtube audience, and his sponsors are sites like those digital audiobooks. I don't see how either would be affected negatively by associating themselves with Jon, it's not like a sports figure getting clothing line sponsors to drop because they lied about or got caught doing drugs.

If it bothers you that much I feel for you, but not watching him or giving him those clicks would work. You're going to possibly ruin the guy's source of income because you don't like his opinion on something?

 

[RubberJohnny]

He makes silly videos about him reviewing older games for the youtube audience, and his sponsors are sites like those digital audiobooks.

Oh, he's not on a network? Shame

If it bothers you that much I feel for you, but not watching him or giving him those clicks would work. You're going to possibly ruin the guy's source of income because you don't like his opinion on something?

I think it's pretty weird that you think him getting a small measure of consequences for his harassment is worse than his harassment of others in vulnerable situations.

 

[Oggmeiler]

Can't you guys start a new thread and cry about your SJW bullshit there? No reason to fill this thread up with it.

 

[Puruzi]

Can't you guys start a new thread and cry about your SJW bullshit there? No reason to fill this thread up with it.

This please, I saw it bumped and thought there was a new video.

 

[RubberJohnny]

But I thought the anti-SJW were actually condemning harassment? I guess not, they were actually all for it all along.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Maybe I don't see how possibly fucking over a guy who isn't exactly banking (he made much more money while on Game Grumps with Youtube's business model) and losing one of his few sources of income is the same as him having a bad opinion and not knowing when to shut up in arguments. Debating with him and bothering him in Twitter about the issue is harassment enough isn't it? Do we really have to go and mess with his source of income?

Unless I missed something and he did something besides not shutting up and being an asshole for some on Twitter.

This please, I saw it bumped and thought there was a new video.

I agree. I saw the thread today and thought it was a new video and got excited, then I was met with this.

 

[DCharlie]

because you don't like his opinion on something?

I've only mildly stuck my arm into this whole hornets nest but what i've personally come away with is that i have, for the past 32-33 years or so, identified in some way or other as a "gamer" (which i guess is a little sad in itself, but i digress)

Which, with the earth shrinking at a rate of knots thanks to the internet, now means the stage is set for "gamers" to ... well... show all the , um, "diverse opinions" there are out there.

The conclusion i've come to is , right or wrong, i don't want to identify myself as a gamer because between JonTron, Dickwolves, the reaction to Zoe Q, and a whole host of other peeves I just don't feel i belong. The argument that "it's just a vocal minority" across the board isn't ringing particularly true and when anyone speaks out the "it's just an opinion" comes to the forefront. It's true on a base level : is just an opinion - just there's a lot of really shitty opinions that most reasonable people are going to at least dislike or try to distance themselves from.

I don't want arsehole opinions driving the "gamer" group - but by equating shitty opinions on a persons sex, race, sexuality etc to the contra opinion? It starts tarring us all with the same shitty brush.

... i should have done this as an "I'm an expert" post should i?

 

[JNA]

Oh sweet a new JonTron vid-

*heated controversy belt tingling*

...ummm...I'll come back later.

*runs away*

 

[Puruzi]

So don't identify as a gamer. You don't need to be a "gamer" to play video games.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

I've only mildly stuck my arm into this whole hornets nest but what i've personally come away with is that i have, for the past 32-33 years or so, identified in some way or other as a "gamer" (which i guess is a little sad in itself, but i digress)

Which, with the earth shrinking at a rate of knots thanks to the internet, now means the stage is set for "gamers" to ... well... show all the , um, "diverse opinions" there are out there.

The conclusion i've come to is , right or wrong, i don't want to identify myself as a gamer because between JonTron, Dickwolves, the reaction to Zoe Q, and a whole host of other peeves I just don't feel i belong. The argument that "it's just a vocal minority" across the board isn't ringing particularly true and when anyone speaks out the "it's just an opinion" comes to the forefront. It's true on a base level : is just an opinion - just there's a lot of really shitty opinions that most reasonable people are going to at least dislike or try to distance themselves from.

I don't want arsehole opinions driving the "gamer" group - but by equating shitty opinions on a persons sex, race, sexuality etc to the contra opinion? It starts tarring us all with the same shitty brush.

... i should have done this as an "I'm an expert" post should i?

I guess I'll be part of the non-solution and say it's a vocal minority as well. We have plenty of people representing gamers and the gaming industry, they simply might not be as popular as these guys because youtube stars make their fame largely off younger audiences. These guys are like the TMZ of the industry.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

I had no idea who JonTron was until last week , i clicked on the shmups video and basically got a more annoying Peter Griffin fnar-fnar'ing through "crazy Japanese stuff"

I've not even caught up on today yet.

I've been reading about Jon Tron on GAF for some time, so today I finally clicked on those links in the OP. Some terribly unfunny stuff there. At least some of his other videos are more informative, but yeah, it's not for me.

 

[Oggmeiler]

... i should have done this as an "I'm an expert" post should i?

Nvm, I fucked up.

 

[DCharlie]

So don't identify as a gamer. You don't need to be a "gamer" to play video games.

yup - ultimately that's the solution - though it does feel like abandoning the corpse of a once favourite aunt

 

[Professor Beef]

Maybe I don't see how possibly fucking over a guy who isn't exactly banking (he made much more money while on Game Grumps with Youtube's business model) and losing one of his few sources of income is the same as him having a bad opinion and not knowing when to shut up in arguments. Debating with him and bothering him in Twitter about the issue is harassment enough isn't it? Do we really have to go and mess with his source of income?

Unless I missed something and he did something besides not shutting up and being an asshole for some on Twitter.

Maybe he should've realized that mouthing off on Twitter and retweeting an offensive comic about someone weren't brilliant ideas. Now he has to deal with the consequences of his actions, which include all those god-awful tweets he made for the entire world to see. All of that is on him, and I won't bat an eyelash if he loses money because this is all his own doing and could've easily been avoided.

 

[UrbanRats]

Lol, this whole "choose a side" mentality is very stupid.

I watch Jon Tron videos because i find them funny, you coming here just to say how unfunny you find them (although perfectly fine, because it's a discussion forum, not a circlejerk) is not really going to impact my opinion of them, unless you had something very substantial that makes me think about them in a deeper manner (which nobody here is doing, so far).

Then Jon Tron says something, completely unrelated to his video work, on Twitter, to another person who says something not very related to his game design work on twitter.
At the very best you can decide not to support these people with money, and i'd understand, but choosing side and an opinion on an unrelated matter, because you like their (unrelated) work, is absurd.

Personally i like JonTron's videos, and i don't care what opinion on the world he holds outside of them, because i'm not his buddy, i don't know the guy, and as long as those opinions don't impact my enjoyment of his videos, i don't feel like i have to choose a side, or read how he said "faggots" in another video i didn't watch and so on.

In a smaller scale, this is similar to the issue involving Mel Gibson (and i'm sorry to even compare the two, because obviously the offenses aren't even in the same ballpark, but i'm talking about the fan's mentality) where some people either assume that Mel movies will stop being great, and he'll stop being a great actor, just because he's revealed to be a piece of shit IRL.
Or even worse, assume that you must be ok with everything he says IRL, because you enjoy him as a performer.

This is nonsense and, infact, you'd be able to enjoy VERY little entertainment, if you had to associate it directly with all artists' personalities involved.

--

TL;DR: By all means, say your 2 cents on either the twitter discussion or the videos themselves, but don't feel obligated to assume a position on either, just because you like the other; and don't assume others do.

 

[Messofanego]

I used to like JonTron videos too, but with what he's said in Game Grumps videos (which I never really watched on a regular basis) and his responses on Twitter, I am now more cautious and sad that he's turned out to be such a person who does such things. I don't know if I'll stop watching videos by him, because that isn't Game Grumps or twitter related, but it's definitely an unfortunate set of things to be experienced for me.

 

[UrbanRats]

I used to like JonTron videos too, but with what he's said in Game Grumps videos (which I never really watched on a regular basis) and his responses on Twitter, I am now more cautious and sad that he's turned out to be such a person who does such things. I don't know if I'll stop watching videos by him, because that isn't Game Grumps or twitter related, but it's definitely an unfortunate set of things to be experienced for me.

I never watched GG, because i thought it was boring AND obnoxious (incidentally, that doesn't affect whether i enjoy JonTronShow, which is a completely different show).
Thing is, it's not a show based off of his personality, as it is based on jokes and good production, if we were talking about a stream (like GG was) i'd understand more.

What can i tell you, if it directly impacts your enjoyment of his videos, then of course there is no reason why you should keep watching them, but i wouldn't stop watching Aguirre because Kinski was a monster IRL, so this hardly phases me.

 

[NotLiquid]

I really doubt Polaris gives two tits and a corn cob over Jon saying things on Twitter that for the most of the part is accountable to stupidity. They didn't mind when this stuff was happening at Game Grumps.

"Do you want to be associated with this?" They're associated with PDP, a guy screaming into a microphone and making rape jokes, who thanks to that is the most subscribed person on YouTube. They're also associated with TotalBiscuit who has really been taking the same stance as Jon for more than Jon got into these feuds. So many YT partners from the NG age like Oney and Spazkid get away with some of the vilest shit and they will still have partners - because its clearly what the people want to see.

The only way I see Polaris having trouble with Jon is if there is either a conflict of interest between multiple partners or if people stop watching his stuff, with his actions showing a decline in interest. And the "outrage" to support people taking action to do that is miniscule at best.

 

[Mango The Magician]

Having done very little research, I think I'm going to side with Jon on this. What he said was a bit much and not necessary, but people (especially on Twitter) are taking it too far, at least imo.

Note that I'm not referring to gaf.

Still, wish a new video was out, every time this thread pops up, that's what I think.

 

[7DollarHagane]

So no new videos then?

Because that's what I am interested in from jontron, not social commentary or opinions on gender issues.

 

[Messofanego]

So no new videos then?

Because that's what I am interested in from jontron, not social commentary or opinions on gender issues.

Blame that on JonTron for speaking about this stuff, making a big deal of it. Others are just relaying what he said, over in this JonTron thread.

 

[LiK]

I used to like JonTron videos too, but with what he's said in Game Grumps videos (which I never really watched on a regular basis) and his responses on Twitter, I am now more cautious and sad that he's turned out to be such a person who does such things. I don't know if I'll stop watching videos by him, because that isn't Game Grumps or twitter related, but it's definitely an unfortunate set of things to be experienced for me.

I enjoy his general reviews. But yea, I don't care for GG or his Twitter. He should focus on that. Not even guys like Spoony or AngryJoe are talking about it.

 

[Messofanego]

I enjoy his general reviews. But yea, I don't care for GG or his Twitter. He should focus on that. Not even guys like Spoony or AngryJoe are talking about it.

Considering Spoony's past, I'm surprised and glad to see he's improved. I still don't care about his wrestling or D&D content but that's just me His Final Fantasy and SWAT 4 stuff was great.

 

[LiK]

Considering Spoony's past, I'm surprised and glad to see he's improved. I still don't care about his wrestling or D&D content but that's just me His Final Fantasy and SWAT 4 stuff was great.

Yea, he's been tweeting nothing but wrestling and random comic book panels. I am frankly uninterested. I may unfollow him soon just to clear my timeline.

 

[Jobbs]

Why are people defending this ass clown?

Whenever I see someone like this and consider that they're a real person that actually exists I start to feel strange. I think I'm too sheltered.

Lol, this whole "choose a side" mentality is very stupid.

If someone is an asshole, saying dumb shit from his big platform -- and you're watching his videos and subscribing to his platform -- you're complicit in all of this by giving him the platform.

 

[MrBadger]

I don't know how you'd conclude that he's not in the wrong here. Regardless of your views on the topic, I think everyone can agree that harassment is utterly wrong.

He really shouldn't be in such a prominent position, and I've half a mind to contact his network and ask them if this is the sort of stuff they want associated with them.

I'm a big fan of Jon and hardly the biggest Zoe Quinn supporter, but come on. "I didn't post porn, except that time I posted porn". How can he think that's okay to say?