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[GavinGT]

There wouldn't really be a reliable way to tell what date you were doing stuff offline. If there is no connection to LIVE and the console is powered off completely the internal clock resets to November 2005.

Could you move the internal xbox clock to street date?

Even without a valid timestamp, the 360 stills records all sorts of other data, including DMI, PFI, security sector, capacity, and title ID, to non-volatile system memory. While this data wouldn't be sufficient to detect an original copy of a game being played offline before release (assuming the player doesn't log in until after the game's release), it is more than enough to elicit a ban flag for a console that's played a pirated game. This is the main intention of this security measure, after all.

I should also add that they're able to distinguish pirated games from originals prior to release because the scene doesn't release 'stealth' data for pre-release games, so the aforementioned data being sent to Microsoft is very clearly not authentic.

Microsoft bans people just because they fucking can.

Microsoft bans pirates 99.99% of the time. It would be bad for business to consistently do otherwise.

 

[RukusProvider]

Good on Frankie jumping in even though OP knew he was getting some shady shit happening.

Even better to see Sony gaf all in this bitch. Has it degraded into a paying for Live bitchfest yet?

 

[matty2Dfraud]

The store didn't sell it to him, as there is no proof of that transaction.

This will only become more common with connected software.

As other have said. The game shouldn't have been on display for someone to ask to buy it, and the store shouldn't be attempting to sell it to unknowing consumers.

Another bad argument. 99% of the time I've lost or accidently thrown away receipts before I even make it home. I also don't have my birth certificate on hand to show you, so maybe we should question if I really exist or not.

In the event someone has a legit copy (which I find rare with all the street date prevention methods stores have these days), they can file a support issue and get it resolved.

hahahahahahahaha maybe if you live in the middle of nowhere and only have big retailers to purchase from. mom & pop shops will sell shit the second they get it.

 

[GavinGT]

hahahahahahahaha maybe if you live in the middle of nowhere and only have big retailers to purchase from. mom & pop shops will sell shit the second they get it.

Not if they care about carrying future Microsoft products, they won't.

 

[Wildesy]

It's a good thing that every single person this has happened to happens to be a GAF member and knows to make a thread on GAF about it and knows that Stinkles works for 343 so they can reach out to him personally to get the situation rectified.

Who else do you know that it has happened to?

 

[DICKS AHOY]

This reminds me of when I felt the need to act all secretive when I bought Dead Space a couple days before the

Spoiler

Australian

street date.

I feel (only slightly) less stupid about my pointless anxiety in retrospect after reading this thread. Sucks to be screwed over for supporting a company.

 

[Fantasmo]

Yes, because piracy was so big in the 90's. I mean dialing up to your local BBS and downloading it via your 28.8 modem. Totally the same as games today.

and you can prove this how? the guy didn't get a receipt.

Both Vilam and myself have attempted to provide insight from the inside of development. (Him much better than myself) There are many aspects of game developer that most people know little about or really isn't visible by the public. There are countless reasons for a game to perform below expectations and everything is taken into consideration. You think that if a game was leaked to the internet early and performs below expectations that leak wouldn't be listed as one of the possibilities for the low sales? I don't think either of us are attempting to make it a single cause, but leaks do have ramifications on the bottom line.

Movies get leaked. Books get leaked. Games get leaked. I got Mortal Kombat 2 SNES early, my friends bought their copies anyway, and a PC copy was being passed around and pirated everyday like it was table salt.

All past present and future games will get pirated. Bigger games have the honor of getting pre-pirated. Smaller games get post-pirated. It happened in the 80s, 90s, 00s, and 10s. You never heard of PC or Nesticle? It's going to happen whether you like it or not. I'm glad this guy has recourse, I'm glad Stinkles is cool and I'm not sure what solution is a good one (which is why I'm not jumping down Microsoft's throat), but jumping on the pirate angle is insanely paranoid and a terrible way to live.

FREAKING OUT AGHGHHHGH isn't going to help.

The bottom line is this. Most people buy stuff they like man, whether some bozo got it early and is smack talking or not. So if the product isn't shoddy, people will buy it and will forget about the weirdo who was just plain wrong.

Whatever. I get what you're saying and someone's gotta say it I guess.

 

[element]

Another bad argument. 99% of the time I've lost or accidently thrown away receipts before I even make it home. I also don't have my birth certificate on hand to show you, so maybe we should question if I really exist or not.

In the event you need proof, you could always go back to the retailer as they will have a record of it, or if you bought it was an ATM/Check/Credit Card.

If you were buying something and the clerk said, "Hey I can't give you a receipt for this cause I'll get in trouble." Would you still buy it?

hahahahahahahaha maybe if you live in the middle of nowhere and only have big retailers to purchase from. mom & pop shops will sell shit the second they get it.

As others have said, they probably don't give a shit if they get blacklisted and would probably just go around wholesalers if they wanted products.

but jumping on the pirate angle is insanely paranoid and a terrible way to live.

Working in games for over a decade, sadly piracy is something you are always scared of. Especially when you are making A or AA games.

The bottom line is this. Most people buy stuff they like man, whether some bozo is smack talking or not. So if the product isn't shoddy, people will buy it.

While not related to leaks, I've worked on enough quality games that weren't shoddy, but didn't sell enough and it effected our staffing. Margins on some games are razor thin is my point.

Whatever. I get what you're saying and someone's gotta say it I guess.

first bump.

 

[matty2Dfraud]

Not if they care about carrying future Microsoft products, they won't.

i'm going to laugh at this also. I know of small game shops that have been breaking streets dates since before the Xbox even existed. MS is obviously really cracking down on them!

 

[GavinGT]

i'm going to laugh at this also. I know of small game shops that have been breaking streets dates since before the Xbox even existed. MS is obviously really cracking down on them!

This thread is about Microsoft's effort to crack down on them.

 

[Goodacre0081]

sounds like his problem lies with the retailer. Most of us know better but what about the off chance someone didn't realize this and started playing? the retailer is at fault. He would go back to the store and ask them why they sold a game that could ban him from XBL.

anyone know what kind of action publishers take with broken street dates?

 

[matty2Dfraud]

In the event you need proof, you could always go back to the retailer as they will have a record of it, or if you bought it was an ATM/Check/Credit Card.

Lots of small game shops require cash when they sell a product early. Some don't give receipts.

If you were buying something and the clerk said, "Hey I can't give you a receipt for this cause I'll get in trouble." Would you still buy it?

Yup. Not my problem Microsoft can't control retailers. They should probably do that instead of punishing the consumer buying their shit.

As others have said, they probably don't give a shit if they get blacklisted and would probably just go around wholesalers if they wanted products.

Can you name one shop that has been blacklisted by MS? That would be near impossible anyway when the shops are dealing with any number of distributors to get their product.

 

[matty2Dfraud]

This thread is about Microsoft's effort to crack down on them.

No, this thread is about Microsoft's attempt to punish the consumer instead of actually cracking down on retailers.

 

[Parallax Scroll]

The Halo 4 leak is a serious issue, and it is important for Microsoft to ban people such as Skel1ingt0n who pirated the game.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

Anyone in this situation with a modicum of proof will be unbanned. Bees for everyone. May take a day or two. Call Live support number or contact online.

Amazing.

 

[tim.mbp]

Both Vilam and myself have attempted to provide insight from the inside of development. (Him much better than myself) There are many aspects of game developer that most people know little about or really isn't visible by the public. There are countless reasons for a game to perform below expectations and everything is taken into consideration. You think that if a game was leaked to the internet early and performs below expectations that leak wouldn't be listed as one of the possibilities for the low sales? I don't think either of us are attempting to make it a single cause, but leaks do have ramifications on the bottom line.

Are all leaks bad? Didn't Deus Ex Human Revolution's leak help sales?

In this cars, I don't see how a store selling Halo 4 early is going to negatively impact sales and/or consumer demand.

 

[eso76]

You're still able to play halo 4 though. Which si not fair.
They should have remotely started the self-destrution sequence on your xbox.
Or sent the ninjas after you.

Kidding, just jelly.

 

[GavinGT]

No, this thread is about Microsoft's attempt to punish the consumer instead of actually cracking down on retailers.

You provide a receipt, you get unbanned. It's entirely about cracking down on retailers and pirates.

 

[KdMgMan]

The Halo 4 leak is a serious issue, and it is important for Microsoft to ban people such as Skel1ingt0n who pirated the game.

who said he pirated the game ?? have you even read the past pages or you just made an assumption that he pirated the game?

 

[kneePat]

Also, I don't have a receipt. Bought it from a local game shop; they said they'd "ring it out" on launch day. Obviously a bit shady- but far from fucking stealing.

Are you kidding me..? Far from stealing... you walked out of the store, game in hand, without getting ringed up. WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU CALL THAT OTHER THAN STEALING. Oh yeah... I quote, "A bit shady", congrats on your upbringing.

You may have not stole from that coveted store of yours that willingly breaks street dates but with even a second of thought you should realize you basically stole a game (time) from Microsoft, a game that they have heavily invested in, and are now crying that you got caught. You are so lucky they are unbanning you.

 

[Parallax Scroll]

who said he pirated the game ?? have you even read the past pages or you just made an assumption that he pirated the game?

I've read the thread. From Microsoft's perspective, this is a pirated game, unless there are receipts to prove otherwise.

 

[element]

Lots of small game shops require cash when they sell a product early. Some don't give receipts.

And that doesn't give you any sort of warning that what you are involved with might be against the rules?

Yup.

So next time I'm in a store, I should just grab something and push some cash on the ground. Thanks for the advice.

Can you name one shop that has been blacklisted by MS? That would be near impossible anyway when the shops are dealing with any number of distributors to get their product.

Typically stores get punished by delayed or shortages. When I was in high school I worked at a store that got hit. A game came out and our whole region didn't get the game until the following week.

 

[KdMgMan]

I've read the thread. From Microsoft's perspective, this is a pirated game, unless there are receipts to prove otherwise.

hmm i guess but good thing Stinkles recognizes it as a legit copy and is trying to unban him.

 

[CrunchinJelly]

Why would somebody play a big game like Halo 4 early WHILE connected to Live?

I sure as hell would not trust their banning system.

 

[GavinGT]

Are you kidding me..? Far from stealing... you walked out of the store, game in hand, without getting ringed up. WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU CALL THAT OTHER THAN STEALING. Oh yeah... I quote, "A bit shady", congrats on your upbringing.

You may have not stole from that coveted store of yours that willingly breaks street dates but with even a second of thought you should realize you basically stole a game (time) from Microsoft, a game that they have heavily invested in, and are now crying that you got caught. You are so lucky they are unbanning you.

If nothing else, he's helping this store put at a disadvantage other stores that actually play by the rules.

 

[matty2Dfraud]

Are you kidding me..? Far from stealing... you walked out of the store, game in hand, without getting ringed up. WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU CALL THAT OTHER THAN STEALING. Oh yeah... I quote, "A bit shady", congrats on your upbringing.

You may have not stole from that coveted store of yours that willingly breaks street dates but with even a second of thought you should realize you basically stole a game (time) from Microsoft, a game that they have heavily invested in, and are now crying that you got caught. You are so lucky they are unbanning you.

wow... is this the kind of stupid that populates my country?

 

[AlexBasch]

I recall some game (Gears 2 maybe? Can't remember) that had a "DON'T PLAY UNTIL RELEASE DATE XX/XX/XX" orange sticker. Would be a good measure to not put the bloody disc until then, I guess.

If you still do, then what? "The uninformed customer has no responsibility to read a sticker that states otherwise"?

And no, not defending MS here. Fucking hate how some people are trying to make sense of what's happening or why MS did that and get instantly labeled as "corporate drones".

 

[matty2Dfraud]

And that doesn't give you any sort of warning that what you are involved with might be against the rules?

Not the consumer's fault a store broke the rules. I guess Microsoft should punish me for giving them money. That makes a lot of sense.

So next time I'm in a store, I should just grab something and push some cash on the ground. Thanks for the advice.[/quote]

put cash on the ground? what?

Typically stores get punished by delayed or shortages. When I was in high school I worked at a store that got hit. A game came out and our whole region didn't get the game until the following week.

that's pretty great. i've never seen it happen to shops that knowingly break dates on near every game released. If Microsoft knows what the internet is they probably know who does it.

 

[surly]

MS clearly cannot tell if a game is a copy or not as long as the copy is "good". If they could, they would ban more regularly - there hasn't been a ban wave in years.

So what do they do? Assume that everyone playing the game on Live now has bought a legit copy from a retailer that broke the street date? So ban nobody? Or do they ban first and ask questions later? If I was them, I would do the latter as otherwise you're just letting pirates get away with shit, while doing it the other will catch out a smaller number of legitimate customers who would hopefully be able to be unbanned by proving they purchased an original copy of the game. That also allows MS to identify the retailers breaking street dates.

 

[matty2Dfraud]

I recall some game (Gears 2 maybe? Can't remember) that had a "DON'T PLAY UNTIL RELEASE DATE XX/XX/XX" orange sticker. Would be a good measure to not put the bloody disc until then, I guess.

If you still do, then what? "The uninformed customer has no responsibility to read a sticker that states otherwise"?

And no, not defending MS here. Fucking hate how some people are trying to make sense of what's happening or why MS did that and get instantly labeled as "corporate drones".

The stickers say to not sell it before x date. I've never seen one that says not to play it.

 

[CartridgeBlower]

Are you kidding me..? Far from stealing... you walked out of the store, game in hand, without getting ringed up. WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU CALL THAT OTHER THAN STEALING. Oh yeah... I quote, "A bit shady", congrats on your upbringing.

You may have not stole from that coveted store of yours that willingly breaks street dates but with even a second of thought you should realize you basically stole a game (time) from Microsoft, a game that they have heavily invested in, and are now crying that you got caught. You are so lucky they are unbanning you.

Posts like this are scary. Damn. I'm not even kidding. Yikes.

 

[element]

wow... is this the kind of stupid that populates my country?

I would say the same about you. I can't even fathom going into a store and 'buying' something without a receipt or a proof of purchase. That just sound incredibly stupid. The store could turn around and say you stole it, and you would be fucked.

 

[matty2Dfraud]

MS clearly cannot tell if a game is a copy or not as long as the copy is "good". If they could, they would ban more regularly - there hasn't been a ban wave in years.

So what do they do? Assume that everyone playing the game on Live now has bought a legit copy from a retailer that broke the street date? So ban nobody? Or do they ban first and ask questions later? If I was them, I would do the latter as otherwise you're just letting pirates get away with shit, while doing it the other will catch out a smaller number of legitimate customers who would hopefully be able to be unbanned by proving they purchased an original copy of the game. That also allows MS to identify the retailers breaking street dates.

or they could figure something else out to not piss off paying consumers? i would go with that.

 

[runnin_blue]

Not if they care about carrying future Microsoft products, they won't.

A lot (and I mean A LOT) of stores don't necessarily get their games directly from Microsoft.

So street dates don't mean shit.

I once laughed at a 2K company representative who tried to pressure me about breaking street dates. He couldn't do anything about it.

 

[matty2Dfraud]

I would say the same about you. I can't even fathom going into a store and 'buying' something without a receipt or a proof of purchase. That just sound incredibly stupid. The store could turn around and say you stole it, and you would be fucked.

laugh out loud

 

[GavinGT]

MS clearly cannot tell if a game is a copy or not as long as the copy is "good". If they could, they would ban more regularly - there hasn't been a ban wave in years.

'Good' is the operative word. There are certainly copies of games that will play on a 360 yet still elicit a ban flag. If the pirate has run through all the necessary checks in burning a game, it is true that Microsoft can not currently distinguish that copy from an original.

A lot (and I mean A LOT) of stores don't necessarily get their games directly from Microsoft.

So street dates don't mean shit.

I once laughed at a 2K comoany representative who tried to pressure me about breaking street dates. He couldn't do anything about it.

This doesn't stop Microsoft from applying pressure higher up the chain.

 

[runnin_blue]

This doesn't stop Microsoft from applying pressure higher up the chain.

No it doesn't, but pressure on whom?

 

[element]

laugh out loud

Next time you are in a game store, just grab a game. put $20 on the counter and walk away. I'm sure they will be fine with it.

No it doesn't, but pressure on whom?

To wholesalers who work with companies that consistently break the rules.

 

[GavinGT]

No it doesn't, but pressure on whom?

Whoever distributes the copies to the stores, to encourage the distributors to crack down on stores under their purview in regards to breaking street dates.

 

[Pikma]

So actually buying, like in paying, a game before it's release date equals stealing now? My god, to what extremes this industry goes.

If you buy used games you're a pirate.
If you buy them new before they release you're a criminal.

Soon everyone who doesn't buy a game on it's release day will be prosecuted.

 

[runnin_blue]

Whoever distributes the copies to the stores, to encourage the distributors to crack down on stores under their purview in regards to breaking street dates.

They theoretically could but they usually don't bother if it's an indy store. Chain stores on the other hand need to watch out.

One of the few times the little guy comes out ahead. Street dates are pointless and stupid anyway.

 

[surly]

or they could figure something else out to not piss off paying consumers? i would go with that.

Such as? What would you do if you were in charge?

There's clearly going to be a ton of people out there with pirated copies of this game - I would guess many more pirated copies than legit customers with an early copy. Given that they cannot detect modded consoles or pirated games when both of those things are done "properly", what would your solution be? It's not like they haven't tried many times to stamp out piracy - including creating the XGD3 format that Halo 4 uses which was probably their best effort thus far - but every thing they do has been outdone by the modders.

Take no action against anyone playing the game early = allow all of the pirates to play the game on Xbox Live as soon as it leaks.
Take action against all of the people playing the game early (except reviewers and what have you) = some legit consumers get caught up in it.
Give stores strict dates when they can start to sell games = some stores ignore that.
Work on new anti-piracy methods and detection methods = always outdone by the modders in anywhere from hours to weeks.

So what's your solution to this?

 

[Raide]

How can Microsoft or Bungie differentiate between a copy of Halo 4 being played like the OP or a games reviewer playing it?

List of people that have had copies sent to them that are members of the press.

 

[element]

So actually buying, like in paying, a game before it's release date equals stealing now?

The point is that this person shouldn't have even been able to buy the game. As far as the store is even concerned the unit isn't even sold, because a transaction never took place.

I don't think anyone is even suggesting that if someone walked into WalMart, and was able to buy Halo 4 (even with all the presale prevention measures). That isn't stealing. What most of us are saying is if you walked into a store handed over $60, the clerk mentions that they can't actually ring you up or provide a receipt of the purchase, that you are one some shady ground and that common sense should kick in.

 

[matty2Dfraud]

Next time you are in a game store, just grab a game. put $20 on the counter and walk away. I'm sure they will be fine with it.

I'm sure that is exactly what the OP did. jesus fucking christ... i'm going to bed. hopefully the world ends while i'm sleeping so I don't have to deal with people like you tomorrow.

 

[Hanmik]

That isn't stealing. What most of us are saying is if you walked into a store handed over $60, the clerk mentions that they can't actually ring you up or provide a receipt of the purchase, that you are one some shady ground and that common sense should kick in.

have you ever been in a store with a broken cas register..? or some other malfunction..? come on it happens all the time that the clerk tells you "Sorry can´t give you an reciept right now, because our register isn´t working 100%"..
There is nothing shady about buying something and don´t get a receipt, under normal circumstances. Most of the time the clerk even asks you.. "Do you want a reciept?"..

The problem here is that stores allow people to walk away with games before the streetdate has broken. Nothing else.. it´s not the persons poblem at all. It´s the store that has to keep the street date.

 

[GavinGT]

have you ever been in a store with a broken cas register..? or some other malfunction..? come on it happens all the time that the clerk tells you "Sorry can´t give you an reciept right now, because our register isn´t working 100%"..
There is nothing shady about buying something and don´t get a receipt, under normal circumstances. Most of the time the clerk even asks you.. "Do you want a reciept?"..

The problem here is that stores allow people to walk away with games before the streetdate has broken. Nothing else.. it´s not the persons poblem at all. It´s the store that has to keep the street date.

There's a difference between "We can't print receipts right now" and "We can totally print receipts, but if I put this order through I'd be in a lot of trouble".

 

[matty2Dfraud]

have you ever been in a store with a broken cas register..? or some other malfunction..? come on it happens all the time that the clerk tells you "Sorry can´t give you an reciept right now, because our register isn´t working 100%"..
There is nothing shady about buying something and don´t get a receipt, under normal circumstances. Most of the time the clerk even asks you.. "Do you want a reciept?"..

The problem here is that stores allow people to walk away with games before the streetdate has broken. Nothing else.. it´s not the persons poblem at all. It´s the store that has to keep the street date.

Nope, we've really been stealing every time we decline a copy of a receipt from the clerk when asked. I've pretty much stolen most of the shit i've purchased in forever. don't tell the cops please.

 

[matty2Dfraud]

There's a difference between "We can't print receipts right now" and "we can totally print receipts, but if I put this order through I'd be in a lot of trouble".

That sounds like a real problem for the retailer.

 

[GavinGT]

That sounds like a real problem for the retailer.

You really want to sit here and dispute what constitutes trouble?