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K-Pop Fanboy/Fangirl |OT5| Controversies Over Nothing
- Thread starter oc
- Start date
I'm a girl, but also gay, so the pic spams of pretty girls are nice. K-pop's focus on appearance (causing talent and musicality to take a backseat) can get a little depressing, though. The aegyo thing drives me nuts. I will never understand how infantilizing grown-ass women is supposed to be sexually arousing. Likewise, the gross current trend of "sexy" tropes finding their way into girl group's MVs also makes me uncomfortable (and not in a good way). Especially given how little control these groups actually have over their concepts.
broadwayrock
Member
Park Ji Yoon - 'Beep' (featuring appearances by Jung Hyung Don, HaHa, Noh Hong Chul, Muzie, Park Myung Soo, Jay Park, and Yoo Jae Suk)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S0wPs6TrEE
She was pretty crap on the music shows, so its nice to have a music video to watch instead. The bass line reminds me of Sori's Dual Life.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S0wPs6TrEE
She was pretty crap on the music shows, so its nice to have a music video to watch instead. The bass line reminds me of Sori's Dual Life.
Someone wake up OC.
The members of Bebop introduce themselves and their single.
Orange Caramel said:
maknae et al said:
KMK said:
Jisoo said:
신지수 선수!!!! 호오오오오오오오오오오오오옴뤄어어어어어어어어어어어어어어어어어어어어언~~~~~~~~~~~!!!!!!
The members of Bebop introduce themselves and their single.
That 1theK thing is going to take some getting used to.
It's like a bad cover of Dual life. And you are right, live performances of this are trash.
Omg, slayage incoming.
Love them. That Girl's Day debut jab was glorious.
Aegyo isn't intended to be sexually arousing and I'm fairly sure that it isn't for the vast majority of people. It's supposed to be funny and cute which it is specifically because of the context of having grown ass women acting cutesy. I agree about the sexy tropes being taken to cringeworthy levels and like with most trends will hopefully die off quickly.
Choreography that is alluring is fine but things go downhill quickly when you get overt.
Yup, by 2 days, YG said they'll release the album on the 26th, CL's birthday.
neoism
Member
So SM didn't announced yet a definitive date for comeback...
There will be a Baby-G 20th concert on March 20th, soshi will be there.
Some photoshoots are interesting but I prefer to see fantaken photos as they aren't plagued by photoshop effects. Here is Yoona's Ceci
26th? lol
There will be a Baby-G 20th concert on March 20th, soshi will be there.
From this set
Some photoshoots are interesting but I prefer to see fantaken photos as they aren't plagued by photoshop effects. Here is Yoona's Ceci
josecitoxnyo
Member
Awesome choreo and song, i did´nt expected something like this. Go home B.A.P lol
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
A Pink was supposed to come back today, but there was nothing so I checked... All notions of an A Pink comeback have disappeared. In fact, it seems Cube/A Cube have gone silent except for a rumored G.NA release sometime this year.... WHAT THE FUCK?!
Wendel Clark
Member
WHAT THE FUCK?
edit
uu
edit
uu
Are you trying to sound sophisticated on purpose so that I don't have a negative impression of this thread, lol? Don't worry, I don't have that much of a negative impression. Like I said before, my sister is a fan of KPop, and I can see where most of the people here are coming from. Also, you guys are basically discussing KPop like how the gaming discussion side discusses gaming, yeah?
What I meant about Jpop idol girl group fans, is that, are they as obsessive as the other group?
I have to say though, a lot of the girls posted here have plastic surgery =/
It is not only KPop that is focusing on appearance, the same can be said for any pop act anywhere. The whole aegyo thing is also present in Japanese media, it is more of an Asian thing, and it is annoying, I agree. Also, I have not seen a KPop MV in a long time, and the one I recently saw was stellar I think? And that was cringe worthy.
Free concert in April for us cali people
http://blog.koreaboo.com/post/77162324004/2pm-shinee-sistar-cnblue-girls-day-and-more-to
2pm, shinee, sistar, girls day, etc.
http://blog.koreaboo.com/post/77162324004/2pm-shinee-sistar-cnblue-girls-day-and-more-to
2pm, shinee, sistar, girls day, etc.
SM the ballad - Blind
SM: "Did you expect SNSD today? Here, have some SM the ballad instead"
____________
T-ara to Release New Song Under Composer Jo Young Soo
Snippets of the song all over this interview
_____________
Rainbow Blaxx (레인보우 블랙
- Cha Cha (Areia K-pop Remix). The dubstep kills it.
SM: "Did you expect SNSD today? Here, have some SM the ballad instead"
____________
T-ara to Release New Song Under Composer Jo Young Soo
Snippets of the song all over this interview
_____________
Rainbow Blaxx (레인보우 블랙
- Cha Cha (Areia K-pop Remix). The dubstep kills it.
RAINBOW(레인보우 生Show! - 과자 하나로도 잘노는 우리, 지숙 - Jisook and Woori goofing off like there's no tomorrow.
I can believe it.
生Show! - 과자 하나로도 잘노는 우리, 지숙 - Jisook and Woori goofing off like there's no tomorrow.I can believe it.
Jisoo said:
Qri said:
Jihae² said:
It's happening
:^)
I'm still going to have to disagree with the idea that "oppa oppa" songs are supposed to be sexually arousing. Maybe it's because I'm a Westerner and these songs in general (cutesy concepts) have pretty much zero appeal to me but I still doubt that these songs are intended to be sexy for most people. Granted, I'm sure there's plenty of pervs out there who actually do find cutesy mvs sexy but I wouldn't go as far as suggesting that's the norm. The writer of the first article you posted even apologizes at the end for the sweeping generalizations he made as this article is actually a few years old.
I'll be honest. Here's the direct order in what I like about kpop:
1) The music
2) The talent (both in regards to singing/dancing)
3) The personalities behind the voices
4) The visuals
I don't care anything about the lyrics because frankly, I don't understand them and that's a large part of what the criticism in the articles focus on.
AbortedWalrusFetus
Member
Funny, your list is almost the inverse of mine.
Yeah, my list is probably a-typical of kpop fandom. For example, my favorite female idols/groups are Ladies Code, SPICA, AOA and Ailee (none of whom are particularly acknowledged for their visuals).
Inversely, I'm not particularly fond of groups like APink, Hello Venus or non-Sweet Tune Rainbow.
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
I'm not trying to sound any which way, I always tend to respond in length if someone seriously asks me my opinion on something.
As for us talking about kpop like gaming side talking about gaming, well yes, when people like something they get thoughts about it. If anyone spends any good portion of time thinking about why they like what they like, they'll see it's the same reasons anyone in humanity likes anything. There are simple, complex, and profound sides to anything to consider, and that provides enough to continue enjoying. That is why there are entire industries about these things.
They can be. They can also be completely casual about it. Millions of people aren't all going to be the same.
That is correct. If you really have a problem with that alone without conditions, maybe you should spend some time thinking about why and whether or not it is justified, and other things of self-modification for society that you accept.
AbortedWalrusFetus
Member
Your list applies for me for k-indie. I just think most kpop music is garbage. It's not to my taste.
Except IU. She's the full package.
Pretty much my list. If I'm not feelin the music, I don't care about anything else.
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
There are two things to consider here.
First, just about all of that helplessness stuff is lost-in-non-translation to foreigners. It is an issue Korea deals with, and I think if you brought up the lyrical content to foreign fans, most of them would say it doesn't really appeal to them and they don't care about or for it. I see a lot of westerners enjoying confident, straightforward women. Bring a translated BoA, Hyori or IU article around here and you'll get a full approval for their cool confidence in command of their knowledge of self and society.
Yet second, cute is still cute, man. You don't need any of those themes to be cute or appreciate cuteness. I don't think cuteness inherently expresses helplessness. For instance, most people here consider Sunny to be a calculating social mastermind who wields cuteness like a weapon in the right moments and ways. I don't think anyone thinks of her as helpless in any regard, and that is one of the reasons many like her. So, I just don't see this quality at odds with any other quality.
However, while I would say there is a false dichotomy between cuteness and maturity that is used to make a lot of faulty arguments against kpop, does one nevertheless see that dichotomy in the lyrics and themes of kpop? Well... I don't think there is a flat answer. I can see it in some groups for sure, but others seem to be going specifically for their integration by way of open self-awareness, like Hello Venus. They acknowledge what they are doing on both ends, and so convey a confident assault upon a man's heart, similar to Hyori.
That said, plenty of people seem to still have an issue with this. Unfortunately most can only seem to ever argue from emotion, their own personal sense of shame or disgust with any social play around sexuality. I find those arguments incredibly weak, and in fact they are possibly reasons to push the trend harder until people can accept these sides of themselves (which they readily admit to but deny in these ways) so they can be discussed and more open to positive changes.
But if you challenge in this way you'll usually get many arguments pointing to tangent issues like corruption/exploitation in the scene and society and self esteem issues in girls. I would say the former is a separate issue to deal with, the darker side of human sexuality which will always be where sexuality is present, and something not solved by trying to stifle sexuality or provide alternatives of apparently more noble characteristics. In fact, such an effort may be one of the primary causes of those things, because it takes sexuality out of the light of social interaction and influence to integrity.
The latter is also a distinct problem that has to do with messages, not presentation. I grew up in a world of idealistic greek gods of men everywhere, but I am fine, because I wasn't pressured to be a Brad Pitt or whatever. I think with the right accompanying narratives, one can hold self identity in confidence while also understanding the social ideals of attractiveness and why they are popular. The problem is less about the existence of ideals and more about social pressures for every single person to live up to them. Girls get that pressure put on them directly by people they know and interact with, and that is the thing that needs to change.
AbortedWalrusFetus
Member
I agree with this. In some ways I think the way aegyo developed is empowering in a sort of twisted way, since I think one of the large reasons it came about was as a way for girls to manipulate their fathers/boyfriends into giving them their way by being cute in order to subvert the strict patriarchal authority by playing off of their perceived vulnerability.
I keep seeing rumours on Twitter that Soshi's comeback might be "the first half of March." I mean, if that's true, we'll be getting like 3 weeks of promo before they're shipped off to Japan yet again. Their Japanese promos are completely screwing with everything and it's so frustrating. If it does come to that, hopefully they at least get decent touring outfits (see: anything from previous JP tours) instead of those pink monstrosities.
In happier news, Seohyun's musical wrapped today and fans threw a nice little surprise for her:
So sweet
In happier news, Seohyun's musical wrapped today and fans threw a nice little surprise for her:
So sweet
fu3lfr3nzy
Member
[MV] T-ARA 티아라 - Lead the way (Japanese single)
AgentChris
Member
Not necessary
I may have to cancel my trip to Florida in April.
Perfect example of the type of aegyo Sevarus was talking about, (Thankfully, not very extended).
_____
Happy together with queen Gayoon and flawless Min
_____
Also this:
... yeah
_____
Happy together with queen Gayoon and flawless Min
_____
Also this:
... yeah
This is a terrible commercial from over a year ago that nobody here likes and is not a kpop video (albeit it does star a kpop idol). It's not commonplace and I completely agree that it's creeptastic. Personally, I worry about the darker side of fandom like Saesangs (Exotics specifically) who represent a very direct problem/threat to other fans and the artists themselves (not talking about Isuzu and her harmless 2D thirst).
Yes, this is exactly what I meant. Bleurgh.
SPICA is doing their online Meet & Greet tomorrow at 8:30PM KST (3:30AM PST/6:30AM EST)
Looks like I'm going to be getting up extremely early tomorrow morning.
Looks like I'm going to be getting up extremely early tomorrow morning.
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
So anyways, about that stuff.
Much like with plastic surgery, I have found that criticisms about sexualization and the aegyo stuff go unstated. Instead of explaining why these things are considered bad, everyone who brings it up seems to simply assume you agree with them that it is a problem without explaining why or how. They might dance around the topic, calling themselves a feminist or naming other trends without actually connecting them to kpop, but they never fully raise their issue. Because of that, I can only try to infer what the problem is.
As far as I can tell, the issue is not a direct one. If idols do something on a stage as professionals, that doesn't change who they are, and it doesn't mean they can't have normal relationships with people outside of their work. So far as we know, there is no reason why an act on a stage would become who they are and how they are ultimately viewed, and as I explained in the specific case of Sunny, I think the opposite can often be the case. So, the only avenues for a problem I see are either they literally think no one should ever have any indulgence of fantasy in media, or that they think these indulgences of fantasy extend to expectations upon girls in society.
Addressing the first, I feel it necessary to point out that the discussion has been terribly one-sided in terms of gender. Men may have some unrealistic fantasies (isn't that what makes something a fantasy?) but is this some sort of nefarious perversion, or just human nature? Well, unfortunately I don't have anything but anecdotes here, but that is par for the course so I'm not going to worry. From what I have seen, boy band group members get passionate fandom from young girls, and while grown women tend to chill out about it, they do still get their jollies off of them to some extent. Korean women I know have their favorites picked out and are open about it, and in a similar sense I've known middle aged American women who admit (in an embarrassed way) their attractions to young actors in Twilight or something.
So, at least on the base level of attraction, that is going to be there. But while I've known some who were into the pop scene, I've known many more into a different scene that is a bit different, dramas. It seems out of their teens women tend to more adamantly follow the dramas and actors, including young, ridiculously attractive actors, with every bit as much ardor as men follow idol girls. And how are these actors portrayed in the dramas? Incredibly unrealistically. They are also the absolute attractiveness ideal, they are almost always stinking rich, and fall into specific roles that serve women's fantasies rather than what real life would deal them, and it isn't necessarily all about extolling noble character traits.
With that in mind, I see the second factor also being the same for both: Entertainers of both genders being fantasized examples of what you won't find in real life. Men enjoy girls who are attractive and sweet and have a willingness to be relationally engaging but not to a point where they hold many expectations and challenge what the men have to offer. Women enjoy men who are attractive and successful to provide them a lot of support and comfort without asking much in return of the woman and instead having a borderline obsessive servantile love.
Neither of these would be fair expectations to place on the average person. Both of these ignore the whole of the person, their own wants and needs and interests and skills and passions, and instead make a hollow caricature of specific qualities that are attractive at face value. Both of them have in mind a dream of affections removed from the reality of how people actually relate to each other, with highs and lows and ranges of mood and other commitments and priorities to keep in balance. Both are a placating image, a slave role (if it were extended into life beyond the show), even the male one which is hidden behind a breadwinner/provider veil.
So if you are going to complain about the show of the idol girl making men expect unrealistic and inhuman things from women, you should also complain about idol and drama boys doing the exact same thing toward men. Personally, I am not inclined to worry about either. I think we are perfectly capable of having our fantasies in media and relating to others in reasonableness and wisdom. That we even have this conscientious conversation shows it is possible. If we can do it, then the media didn't brainwash us. So if some people don't, that fact should not be blamed on the media itself, but whoever had raised those persons to think that they can learn how life functions from fantasies on TV.
That said, I do consider myself a feminist and do recognize the many injustices that are visited upon women in society. Absolutely every single woman in my life, family and friend, have been treated horribly by men in some way or another. It is hard for me to not become cynical and misandrist after seeing the wonderful ladies of kind heart and strong integrity in my life get hurt so badly time and again. Yet in fighting that bias, I try to employ understanding of why men become the way they are and take on the attitudes they do, rather than just judging and criticizing everything they like or that serves them.
In Korean culture, I wonder about the army service and what kind of culture is there. I've heard much of men losing their girlfriends when they go to the army, and when they come out, women have surpassed them in both social skills and status. What kind of solace do they find while in the military? How does it shape their perspectives? What kind of boys club treatment has taken hold in the Korean business world not only in the camaraderie of this common experience, but in the mind of helping these young men "catch up" for those lost years?
Certainly, whatever is happening is overcompensating, and there can also be a lot of patriarchy ingrained from ancient times, but it is important to realize that there is this all-male military sub-world in Korea. Removing women from a mans life just as he is becoming and learning what it means to be a man can have terrible results. I don't like throwing around words like "perverts" so easily, it seems like the male version of slut-shaming. If you have a problem with something, you have to look at the full manifestation of it and judge it on the basis of its actual results, not just your personal tastes.
Much like with plastic surgery, I have found that criticisms about sexualization and the aegyo stuff go unstated. Instead of explaining why these things are considered bad, everyone who brings it up seems to simply assume you agree with them that it is a problem without explaining why or how. They might dance around the topic, calling themselves a feminist or naming other trends without actually connecting them to kpop, but they never fully raise their issue. Because of that, I can only try to infer what the problem is.
As far as I can tell, the issue is not a direct one. If idols do something on a stage as professionals, that doesn't change who they are, and it doesn't mean they can't have normal relationships with people outside of their work. So far as we know, there is no reason why an act on a stage would become who they are and how they are ultimately viewed, and as I explained in the specific case of Sunny, I think the opposite can often be the case. So, the only avenues for a problem I see are either they literally think no one should ever have any indulgence of fantasy in media, or that they think these indulgences of fantasy extend to expectations upon girls in society.
Addressing the first, I feel it necessary to point out that the discussion has been terribly one-sided in terms of gender. Men may have some unrealistic fantasies (isn't that what makes something a fantasy?) but is this some sort of nefarious perversion, or just human nature? Well, unfortunately I don't have anything but anecdotes here, but that is par for the course so I'm not going to worry. From what I have seen, boy band group members get passionate fandom from young girls, and while grown women tend to chill out about it, they do still get their jollies off of them to some extent. Korean women I know have their favorites picked out and are open about it, and in a similar sense I've known middle aged American women who admit (in an embarrassed way) their attractions to young actors in Twilight or something.
So, at least on the base level of attraction, that is going to be there. But while I've known some who were into the pop scene, I've known many more into a different scene that is a bit different, dramas. It seems out of their teens women tend to more adamantly follow the dramas and actors, including young, ridiculously attractive actors, with every bit as much ardor as men follow idol girls. And how are these actors portrayed in the dramas? Incredibly unrealistically. They are also the absolute attractiveness ideal, they are almost always stinking rich, and fall into specific roles that serve women's fantasies rather than what real life would deal them, and it isn't necessarily all about extolling noble character traits.
With that in mind, I see the second factor also being the same for both: Entertainers of both genders being fantasized examples of what you won't find in real life. Men enjoy girls who are attractive and sweet and have a willingness to be relationally engaging but not to a point where they hold many expectations and challenge what the men have to offer. Women enjoy men who are attractive and successful to provide them a lot of support and comfort without asking much in return of the woman and instead having a borderline obsessive servantile love.
Neither of these would be fair expectations to place on the average person. Both of these ignore the whole of the person, their own wants and needs and interests and skills and passions, and instead make a hollow caricature of specific qualities that are attractive at face value. Both of them have in mind a dream of affections removed from the reality of how people actually relate to each other, with highs and lows and ranges of mood and other commitments and priorities to keep in balance. Both are a placating image, a slave role (if it were extended into life beyond the show), even the male one which is hidden behind a breadwinner/provider veil.
So if you are going to complain about the show of the idol girl making men expect unrealistic and inhuman things from women, you should also complain about idol and drama boys doing the exact same thing toward men. Personally, I am not inclined to worry about either. I think we are perfectly capable of having our fantasies in media and relating to others in reasonableness and wisdom. That we even have this conscientious conversation shows it is possible. If we can do it, then the media didn't brainwash us. So if some people don't, that fact should not be blamed on the media itself, but whoever had raised those persons to think that they can learn how life functions from fantasies on TV.
That said, I do consider myself a feminist and do recognize the many injustices that are visited upon women in society. Absolutely every single woman in my life, family and friend, have been treated horribly by men in some way or another. It is hard for me to not become cynical and misandrist after seeing the wonderful ladies of kind heart and strong integrity in my life get hurt so badly time and again. Yet in fighting that bias, I try to employ understanding of why men become the way they are and take on the attitudes they do, rather than just judging and criticizing everything they like or that serves them.
In Korean culture, I wonder about the army service and what kind of culture is there. I've heard much of men losing their girlfriends when they go to the army, and when they come out, women have surpassed them in both social skills and status. What kind of solace do they find while in the military? How does it shape their perspectives? What kind of boys club treatment has taken hold in the Korean business world not only in the camaraderie of this common experience, but in the mind of helping these young men "catch up" for those lost years?
Certainly, whatever is happening is overcompensating, and there can also be a lot of patriarchy ingrained from ancient times, but it is important to realize that there is this all-male military sub-world in Korea. Removing women from a mans life just as he is becoming and learning what it means to be a man can have terrible results. I don't like throwing around words like "perverts" so easily, it seems like the male version of slut-shaming. If you have a problem with something, you have to look at the full manifestation of it and judge it on the basis of its actual results, not just your personal tastes.
Speak for yourself. I love this video. It's also not really aegyo. Like at all
Edit: look what you guys did. Got dice to write an essay