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K-Pop Fanboy/Fangirl |OT6| Thank You for Love

L

llehuty

Member
So... July...

Female:
Nine Muses
SNSD
Girl's Day
A Pink
The Ark
GFRIEND
MINX
4Ten

Male:
Big Bang
SHiNee
GOT7
INFINITE
Legend

Should be interesting to see which of the big groups flop. Rip all nugus, though.
 
P

Peru

Member
mr_chun said:
I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall.

When I say fun jazz chart, I mean fun from a compositional point of view. When quoting me, you left out the critical term "chart," which is referring specifically to the compositional structure of the song. Uptown Funk is simplistic in its harmonic structure but rhythmically interesting, with a much thicker texture thanks to its jazz style scoring and arrangement. From a compositional point of view, it does basically everything better than the other two songs while also encapsulating what ever it is that makes a pop song 'catchy', which is why I give it more credit as a well-written pop song vs the other two.

I mentioned Uptown Funk to prove a point about compositional merit, why the hell would I do that if it didn't have any? Lmao.
Click to expand...

Very silly. If you can check a box, "jazz score", to ensure your song is "better" from a compositional view, then that's hardly difficult or complex at all. Like, sure, you can argue that in a given setting, with a given song, these elements add something, work well with the overall composition - but you're presenting a self-contradictory binary where adding one element somehow lifts this pop song above songs that don't have it. It's why people with a basic understanding of music theory are so often worse at talking about or reviewing music, and often like the blandest shit, because they start looking for these simple signifiers that tell them 'hey, an idea was conceived here'. In many ways that will lead you to the simplest, most obvious songs, not the opposite. Looking at compositional merit, although even saying those words make me feel a bit awkward, you have to look at the big picture, the song as a piece, not dumbing down the discussion to elements. Talking about music is hard, but using checklists to do it makes less sense than most other approaches.
 
Dice

Dice

Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
My two
dollars and two
cents: Just because the pop scene is volatile does not mean it is all random. I think this is what Peru is failing to fully articulate with his questioning. A whole industry is trying to capture a magic, but that magic is always changing, so standard formulas only get so far. The big hits tend to perfectly combine what is familiar/comfortable and the bleeding edge of the most impactful new trends in sound, fashion, and statement. That doesn't mean "most innovative," it means most impactful. In this, pop is an art pushing culture, not the limits of concepts, which is often too experimental and uncomfortable for many, but it also can't rely too heavily on established notions of what "quality" means or it's boring.

For those that find the balance between these, usually professional artists (whether celebrity or not) whose whole personal world is the scene, and the effect of their attunement with what the scene is becoming in addition to their capacity for raw human expression through it seems to make something timeless. I do realize there is still luck involved, so I don't think that everyone who makes something that could be an international hit will get it heard, but the mega hits have definitely tapped into a resonance with the mind and heart of society on a level that cannot be mechanically manufactured.

I mean, indie artists do the same thing, just within a niche rather than the largest span of culture. For example, we have a lot of Neon Bunny fans in here. Why is she so good? If you try to break it down in analysis, her works aren't super challenging, sounds not too innovative. But if you know her scene of fuzzy electrosynth, you know she is bringing a clarity of melody and distinctiveness of emotional message that was lacking in the rather amorphous genre, and now she's even bringing in touches from R&B. But only those into the genre would go "this is something really special" because they have the focused context of the smaller scene in mind.

Pop is when the context is the entire flow of music and its role in larger society. Musically you have wide-spectrum flows and shifts of influence like country, jazz, rock, hip-hop, electronic. Thematically you have hot topics that press on what people are dealing with socially, but then more basic/shallow aspects of simply being human. Where familiar hits newness makes impact, and this is in the established music smashing into innovations, in genres smashing into each other, in familiar feelings and mindsets smashing into new experiences and interactions with new ideas and kinds of people, or even familiar yet deeply personal sorts of feelings hitting the open air for once (to the average listener, not necessarily the first time historically).

So anyways yeah, it may often come off "dumb" in terms of refined artistic creation, but if you ever make refined artistic creations you'll find that a rather specific context is required to really appreciate them (and that can go not just for perspective or music style, but your present mood, as sometimes you just want to party and not be focused on specific things). Pop megahits can be appreciated by people who just live here in our world, tho sometimes a bit more focused to being appreciated by the people who live in the country it was written in. Accomplishing that without being boring is very difficult to do, if it is a work project to you, but may come as naturally as breathing if you're wrapped up in the scene and what it's becoming.

And while it may change constantly, and not hold the deepest and most articulate statements, that doesn't mean that it's all superficial and meaningless to our world or anything really important, but then that is a whole different topic I don't have time to write on in full because I'm heading out soon. I'll simply say that some discussions are still far and wide, socially hindered, just like some (many) parts of the world still lack clean water. Pop is doing it's work on culture, not on philosophers. Yet some things also bear repeating as they are new to us each day in a sense, and many people are born each day to go through the common human experience.
 
Dice

Dice

Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
Peru said:
Pop can certainly hold the deepest and most articulate statements as well as any other genre.
Click to expand...
Sure, for example I think The Beatles and Michael Jackson did all these things including such statements on the megahit level, and shit even Rihanna has if you want to use a more recent/criticized example, but they are deep enough to be resonant with anyone who hears. Hitting wide doesn't mean it has to hit shallow (although it can and often does hit shallow, but deep/shallow as a measurement of quality/impact/importance is another thing I'd argue against), it just has to be recognizable.

When I look at a lot of "good art" type music that certain people often contrast with "shit pop," it's just too narrow to find wide acceptance. Like, I don't think Tool will ever find popularity outside their particular school. That doesn't mean it's bad, and doesn't mean it's superior, but one clinging to a personal idea of artistic merit will more often find themselves in that situation rather than in the possession of a pop megahit, and that doesn't mean the pop scene is "too dumb" to appreciate it. Okay, I'm out for now.
 
A

AReed

Member
Peru said:
Pop can certainly hold the deepest and most articulate statements as well as any other genre.
Click to expand...

yoWiJc3.gif
 
A

AReed

Member
Peru said:
AReed what are your favorite artists? I'm really looking forward to making fun of you further.
Click to expand...

I don't recall you ever making fun of me, but I'm getting back into Arctic Monkeys, The Black Keys, and Modest Mouse. So go ahead, if you want.
 
L

llehuty

Member
I don't know if you are trolling posting pics of an artist that actually makes pop music with meaning, or is just your subsconcious playing tricks.
 
M

mr_chun

Member
Peru said:
Very silly. If you can check a box, "jazz score", to ensure your song is "better" from a compositional view, then that's hardly difficult or complex at all. Like, sure, you can argue that in a given setting, with a given song, these elements add something, work well with the overall composition - but you're presenting a self-contradictory binary where adding one element somehow lifts this pop song above songs that don't have it. It's why people with a basic understanding of music theory are so often worse at talking about or reviewing music, and often like the blandest shit, because they start looking for these simple signifiers that tell them 'hey, an idea was conceived here'. In many ways that will lead you to the simplest, most obvious songs, not the opposite. Looking at compositional merit, although even saying those words make me feel a bit awkward, you have to look at the big picture, the song as a piece, not dumbing down the discussion to elements. Talking about music is hard, but using checklists to do it makes less sense than most other approaches.
Click to expand...
We aren't approaching this from the same context. This argument could go on and on and it will never end because we aren't looking at it from the same angle, and even if we did I don't think that we would see eye to eye on it. I understand what you're saying, I do not completely agree with you, but I'm not going to rebut. Although I love debate, I'm not going to engage in it with someone that's going to lace their argument with underhanded snarks. I'm walking away, bye.
 
S

salty_Josh

Member
mr_chun said:
We aren't approaching this from the same context. This argument could go on and on and it will never end because we aren't looking at it from the same angle, and even if we did I don't think that we would see eye to eye on it. I understand what you're saying, I do not completely agree with you, but I'm not going to rebut. Although I love debate, I'm not going to engage in it with someone that's going to lace their argument with underhanded snarks. I'm walking away, bye.
Click to expand...

boo! we (I) want more
 
N

No No Eul

Member
It's interesting that some of these AOA instagram accounts have been active for weeks already (seven in Yuna's case) albeit set to private. It's almost as if their management didn't trust them to use it sensibly so have been conducting a sort of trial run. /tin foil hat

Pendulum said:
PEEJAY - I Get Lifted X Beenzino MV
Click to expand...

I'm loving this track.

Pendulum said:
"Her, Secret Weapon" cast at a press conference.
Click to expand...

I don't think we've had the full cast list for Secret Weapon posted in the thread yet have we?

G-Friend's Yerin
BESTie's Dahye
Hello Venus' Alice
Laboum's Solbin
Spica's Sihyun
Berry Good's Daye
Tahiti's Jisoo
Stellar's Minhee
Fiestar's Jei
2Eyes' Daeun

I didn't know Boom was co-hosting the show. I hadn't even realised he was back from his period of self-reflection or whatever.
 
L

luso

Member
I'll try to watch, as long there are subbed versions.
Were they chosen because they are nugus, or because nugus are cheaper? Maybe both.

Celebrity scans, click at the end of post to see them ("지소") and in the pics for full resolution.
 
L

Loci

Member
Don't like the new Mamamoo either. I don't get the song, it's boring and whatever. Their attitude is still quite enjoyable tho.
Sistar looks boring
AoA looks boring

9muses tho, THEY ARE BACK CALL YOUR FRIENDS
 
J

jongkookie

Member
Lol y'all just got trolled by AReed.

Complaining about pop music in a pop music thread? See the irony here? Smh.

Besides, if he wasn't trolling, no matter how Peru and everyone else excellently put it, he still doesn't understand it so why waste the time?

I do find the discussion about Uptown Funk being funny though. Yeah, Uptown Funk is a great "pop-jazz" chart... but the average listener won't give a shit that it has some jazz sensibilities. R&B has a lot of jazz sensibilities underlying the music, so does that make it any better than pop? Nah, it's the same throughout.

You could make the most complicated pop music of all time that everybody loves, but none of them will give a shit about how hard it is to play, sing, write, whatever. They're just looking for a song that makes them feel something, and that's something pop music does really well, or it needs to do really well in order to reach an audience.

Just look at the debate about Mamamoo's single. A lot of people hate it for going the enjoyable pop route and staying away from their stylistic sound that they developed the last couple of singles. But on the contrary, if you look at the charts, they're killing it and this stupid simplistically styled piece of music is reaching an audience of magnitude compared to their hits before. Gee, I wonder why that is?
 
P

Peru

Member
jongkookie said:
Just look at the debate about Mamamoo's single. A lot of people hate it for going the enjoyable pop route and staying away from their stylistic sound that they developed the last couple of singles. But on the contrary, if you look at the charts, they're killing it and this stupid simplistically styled piece of music is reaching an audience of magnitude compared to their hits before. Gee, I wonder why that is?
Click to expand...

I actually am confused about that though. The song sounds like a lot of songs that don't chart high at all, ie ones lost in the sea of girl group releases. Sophisti-pop stuff like Zion T is more en vogue on the charts now.
 
J

jongkookie

Member
Peru said:
I actually am confused about that though. The song sounds like a lot of songs that don't chart high at all, ie ones lost in the sea of girl group releases. Sophisti-pop stuff like Zion T is more en vogue on the charts now.
Click to expand...

AsianJunkie or somebody else mentioned it before, but it seems like Korea just likes the stupid simplistic safe music that most international fans hate. There's been a lot of songs that are exactly like this and somehow hit the charts like wildfire. Combine that with their popularity, their fantastic showings at Immortal Song, and wherever else they show up creating more and more exposure for them garnering more fans and thereby charting better.

I do like how Mamamoo is trying new things. They could've done their usual style and me and many people would eat it up, but it could also maybe alienate the newcomers.
 
J

JohnCYQ

Member
We don't have a thread for kdramas/jdramas right?

Well Producer just ended
in a rather anti-climatic manner, but I guess it sort of fits the whole "mockumentry" angle they were going for (although they threw most of that out by episode 4). Cindy finally breaks free from CEO Byun's grasps and gets an open end with BSC while TYJ/RJM sort of end up together. KJK ends up with the Admin Lady too.

----------------------------------
So I've got some questions for you guys, sort of related to Producer. Spoilers from the show needed for this.

Context #1:
So the main plotline for Cindy (IU's character) is that she is a 23 yr old "top star" idol who has been in the industry for 10 years now (started in a group, debuted solo later on). CEO Byun decides that its time to "replace" Cindy after she decides to run away/disappear for a few days to avoid work (she was injured). Apparently this (replacing the idol) has happened in the past with an idol named Yuna who also "rebelled" against Byun.

The so called process used was to promote both Yuna and Pink4 (Cindy's group) together and eventually have the new idol take over the all activities previously held by the former.

Question #1:
Are top-star idols "easily replaceable" in the kpop industry, especially for soloists? Top star soloists who fits the bill (for females) IMO are IU, Hyuna, Ailee for the current generation, and BoA/Lee Hiyori a few years back.

Using the above example, it would be something like:
YMC Entertainment signs a new idol who had won kpopstar, with vocal/visual qualities similar to that of Ailee. They decide to "replace" Ailee by promoting both idols at the same time (being on the same variety shows, music programs, etc), eventually phasing Ailee out. The new idol then goes on to become "the next Ailee"

My answer:
No. As it is, it is far less likely for a soloist to make it big in the current "climate" especially since they have to compete with the large amounts idol groups as well. Kids who join SM/YG/JYP almost exclusively start out in girl/boy groups with very few exceptions (Like Lee Hi, who had establish some fanbase/public recognition from Kpopstar, although she was originally supposed to debut in a group as well). Idol groups have a far bigger chance of succeeding as they can draw in different fans who may only support one member, while soloists don't have that advantage since they are, well, alone.

Luck + a hit song also plays a big part. IU's debut was considered a failure and it led to her changing to concepts that suit her age, and even when she gained recognition for her talents via shows like YHY sketchbook/KJE chocolate with her acoustic covers with the guitar, it wasn't until Nagging/Good Day that her popularity really took off. Ailee built her reputation through Immortal Song 2 with her impressive vocals and has had several hit songs to reach where she is today.

Next, there is the issue of fans. In the above example, Ailee already has pretty big established fanbase (she was neck in neck with IU at MAMA2014 for most popular female kpop vocalist in asia) so even if YMC decides to throw away Ailee for whatever reason, Ailee will still have a pretty strong fanbase to back her up.

Now, even if YMC decides to pull a "SM" on Ailee (block her from appearing on broadcast), she can still rely on her fanbase for support for her future song releases (using JYJ as an example, who have managed to last through 7 years of broadcast ban and still survive as artists, topping the digital charts, etc). And since she has a pretty decent international fanbase, she could also use youtube as her main tool for communication ala being a youtuber (vlogs, announcements etc).

Considering the above, even if you were to bury a top star somehow (broadcast bans, destroying their reputation via scandals, etc), you will still have one major problem: there is no guarantee that the "replacement idol" can make it big. Luck + hit song alone might make them a trend, but to secure position of a top star requires more than that as well.

Context #2:
CEO Byun sets Cindy up in a trap by forcing her to reveal that she had lied about her parents being in America back when she first debut 10 years ago, where the reality was that they had died in a car crash. This "scandal" was able to destroy her (the broadcasting station wanted to drop her from their programs as they was getting hate for keeping her on, the same thing that happened with her predecessor Yuna).

Question #2:
Is a scandal like that even really that damaging?

My answer:
Well, no.

First off, she was 13 at the time of her debut. This means several things:
1) She was a minor and therefore CEO Byun would require her parents to approve of her activities and contract. Her parents died while she was still a trainee, so by right CEO Byun would have been unable to get Cindy on the contract without knowing that her parents are in fact dead. The entire premise of the trap was that Cindy had been lying to CEO Byun for the past 10 years, but looking at the situation it would make no sense at all that the CEO was kept in the dark about the parents since she would require actual contact with them.
2) Lying about your parents being alive when they are actually dead, at age 13, sounds like something that would bring about sympathy/support from the fans/public rather than hate, since she was just a kid who had to suffer through the loss of her parents while living the tiring/busy life of an idol. Plenty of real-life idols have survived through far worse scandals after all (drunk driving, nudes, drugs etc), so this lie seems like a non-issue in comparison, especially if Cindy is supposed to be a top star.

Considering the above points, it made no sense to me that Cindy would be destroyed by that scandal.

Thoughts?
 
Q

questionmark

Member
JohnCYQ said:
We don't have a thread for kdramas/jdramas right?

Well Producer just ended
in a rather anti-climatic manner, but I guess it sort of fits the whole "mockumentry" angle they were going for (although they threw most of that out by episode 4). Cindy finally breaks free from CEO Byun's grasps and gets an open end with BSC while TYJ/RJM sort of end up together. KJK ends up with the Admin Lady too.

----------------------------------
So I've got some questions for you guys, sort of related to Producer. Spoilers from the show needed for this.

¿bla bla bla?
¿bla bla bla?
¿bla bla bla?

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

There is actually a kdrama thread somewhere. It doesn't get posted in too often, but there is some activity there. Without reading the spoilers or having watched the show, it still seems like your questions are relevant here though. Might want to post in the kdrama thread as well.

llehuty said:
She is just 9.9 with short hair, mayne asking her to be a 10 all the time is to much. I'll try to get some insight on this once I wife her.
Click to expand...

Sungah is a 9 with long hair. The only 10 in 9M was Sera. Not even Kyungri could reach that double digit.
 
P

Peru

Member
JohnCYQ said:
We don't have a thread for kdramas/jdramas right?

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Well the situations in the drama are extreme and a CEO couldn't topple a top star like that, but certainly it symbolises some of the brutality of the industry. If you're no longer popular your label will push others, better, quickly. I mean even in SM with boy bands you get a feel that the young and hyped Shinee were suddenly not as cool as EXO anymore when the latter debuted. Even if Shinee retain the big fan base. And I mean take a soloist who had some big hits and then cooled off, Son Dambi.. she's now off Pledis after years of relatively silence and inactivity. Not that this is the norm, necessarily.. look at Lee Hyori who's "aged" but still comes back with hits and in total control of her career, above being controlled by the label.

Also we've seen plenty of examples of tv shows dropping a star because of a scandal that may be nothing, created by baseless rumors, just because having her on the show would create 'unfortunate' associations. It was nice that The Producers showcased this. Even IU had to stay away from some stuff for that pointless scandal of hers.
 
V

vanty

Member
At least 5/6 wearing seatbelts. Looks like they're filming something inside the car though so probably doesn't count. The list is still only two names long.

luYY7hk.jpg
 
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