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Kill la Kill |OT|

S

Shard

XBLAnnoyance
Watanabe Kazuma said:
I don't care for Mako, rather I enjoy her presence, as there never seems to be any sort of pretence as to what her true role is.



That's another thing that I've come to realize - the main conflict has remained static. There hasn't been any sort of progress on that front, except we've been introduced to the extended student council members. For as much time as Satsuki has had, those flashbacks have taught us absolutely nothing about her character. All we know is that her attitude has been this way for a long time. It makes me wonder about whenever the time comes for that mask to slip, will it even register?
Click to expand...

I think the issue with the flashbacks that people are forgetting is those are not really about Satsuki. Oh sure we see her personality and such but the focus here isn't Satsuki but rather each one of the elite four and their relationship with Satsuki and she isn't really supposed to be the beneficiary of character development in those vignettes. We really have not have her episode at the focus yet and I still maintain at this point this is due to us not knowing a lot about Ragyo and REVOCS either.
 
K

Kazzy

Member
Shard said:
I think the issue with the flashbacks that people are forgetting is those are not really about Satsuki. Oh sure we see her personality and such but the focus here isn't Satsuki but rather each one of the elite four and their relationship with Satsuki and she isn't really supposed to be the beneficiary of character development in those vignettes. We really have not have her episode at the focus yet and I still maintain at this point this is due to us not knowing a lot about Ragyo and REVOCS either.
Click to expand...

My main point is that they feel superfluous, and when you look back at the 12 episodes as a whole, hardly anything has been established/built upon.

The show feels like it has been in a holding pattern.
 
S

Shard

XBLAnnoyance
It isn't so much a holding pattern as we have yet to see the full payoff since the sum of these past few arcs yet.
 
D

DeadRockstar

Member
Watanabe Kazuma said:
My main point is that they feel superfluous, and when you look back at the 12 episodes as a whole, hardly anything has been established/built upon.

The show feels like it has been in a holding pattern.
Click to expand...

I agree. I can't see the elite four and their relationship to Satsuki being relevant in the back half of the show to the degree that it will justify all this time spent on it, while the plot sat there spinning its wheels. It's nice to know that there's some history there, but there's not much indication of how Satsuki feels about that or whether it will even be important. Regardless, it doesn't feel important to me, as I'm watching. I could forgive the lack of progress more if everything going on felt worthwhile, but a lot of it doesn't.
 
S

Shard

XBLAnnoyance
The Elite Four have never felt pointless to me and indeed have actually given Satsuki a lot of character depth that she probably otherwise would not have.
 
K

Kazzy

Member
DeadRockstar said:
Regardless, it doesn't feel important to me, as I'm watching. I could forgive the lack of progress more if everything going on felt worthwhile, but a lot of it doesn't.
Click to expand...

It's hard to feel as though it's important, when the likes of Satsuki are ambivalent to events unfolding. There is an onus on why things are happening, just not towards why we should care. There is a conspicuous gulf between belief of how we should react, and what the narrative is actually eliciting. Case in point, would be during the latest episode.
The point that Satsuki interferes when Ryuuko goes feral - that should be a big moment, as indicated by the huge swell in the musical score, but I just really didn't care. There is a clear failure to convey the requisite emotional investment; something which that event should be playing upon.

Cognitive dissonance, plain and simple.
 
Tizoc

Tizoc

Member
I don't know whether I hate Mako or like her.

...but I've suspected this show is gonna make one look at Satsuki in a different light.
So far and from what I gathered of the flashbacks, Satsuki just has a harsh and stern outlook to how she wants to reshape the world.

Oh and one more thing: I am sick and tired of Ryuko just going all gung ho on opponents, this has been her shtick since the series began.
...and yet she's my fav. character in the show lol.

Satsuki's theme is indeed kickass though, woah.
 
J

Jarate

Banned
Watanabe Kazuma said:
Seeing as I've been woefully inept at remaining current, I instead decided to postpone my plans to watch this until there was a decent of material to work through. Now's that time, and here are my impressions to go along with it!

---------------------------------

Full of bluster and bombast, there is definitely much that I find enjoyable about the show. Though, having only watched it recently, I find myself removed from the zeitgeist – knowing that this was a show that (initially) carried a great deal of hype, but not quite knowing whether that managed to persist. Now, having watched the first 12 episodes that form the first half of this tale – I find myself satisfied with what I’ve seen, if not entirely besotted.

The, shall we say, more lurid aspects of the presentation certainly rankle with me. There’s no hiding away from the fact that the fanservice is pervasive. Which is a curiousity unto itself, seeing as it is such a core aspect of Kill la Kill’s identity - for better or worse. Flagrant and excessive, even as a narrative crutch, I don't accept it as a conceit that empowers females, no. So long as each of these cuts is permeated by the pervasive leeriness that has been present from the very first episode, it will continue to detract.

Stylistically, it's clearly something that is considered, and in that regard, I can respect the clarity of vision. The narrative - from the action, all the way down to the comedy, is almost exclusively dictated by what (and how much) skin is on show. Traditionally portrayed as a particular character quirk, this mentality instead seems to permeate the entire world view of Kill la Kill. It's not so much if a individual character is overtly sexual or not, but rather how they react to it. The dichotomy of which is relatively one-note within the show. It only ever seems able to flitter between arousal and embarrassment.

The seriousness by which it treats all this is akin to a child opening a thesaurus and seeing how many different ways they can describe the female anatomy, giggling all the while. There’s no nuance, no subtly, but that admittedly isn't the intent of Kill la Kill. But if what you're left with carries some boorish undertones, is really all that admirable?

The style of the show is something which I (obviously) feel conflicted about, and this extends to the animation itself. The ramshackle nature of its presentation is quite charming, but the tendency to lean on the use of sporadic character movement does become a bit too much on times. It veers a later too much into feeling like it's a shortcut (because it is), which begins to pull the curtain back a little more than I'd like. Don’t let me conflate things, because this show does have the ability to look really good – it just seems content to only occasionally remind us of that fact.

A lot of these aspects are supplementary to the overall experience, or at least to a degree that they don't necessarily supplant the more positive aspects. Which I guess brings me to my biggest problem – the characters. It’s not so much the characterization of the cast that I have a problem with, more that they don't really have any to speak of. Even in a show that is ostensibly about the action, you still want that human element to be tangible.

An antagonist should be a foil. Basically something for our protagonist to clash against, but here we have an individual, Satsuki, who is largely ambivalent to the whole affair. The conflict exists as individuals who are on opposing sides, not necessarily a clash of personality, nor ideals (at least, mutually). It very much feels like a situation that exists within the context of being a show. It feels like an obligation - something that each protracted showdown between her and Ryuuko just exacerbates. The conceit of their conflict (and by extension, the whole narrative), ultimately, just doesn't feel all that substantive.

Even as a satellite character, it’s difficult to accept Satsuki’s position. Yes, a lot of her appeal (at least within the narrative) lies within her sheer force of will – and by extension, her power. But that’s conveyed as a simple means to an end, and many of her subordinate’s mention how it’s much more to do with her indomitable personality. The problem being that we aren't ever really privy to any of these aforementioned traits, and so what we are left with is a pretty bland and one-note character. Largely existing as an aloof bystander, I suspect this is a ploy to delay the eventual gratification of knowing exactly what her true role in all of this is. Though, it’s becoming extremely detrimental - particularly as she acts as the centre that all this hinges on. She just isn’t an engaging presence…at all. Perfection is boring, and here’s the proof.

Conversely, Mako is the spasmodic heart of the show, exhibiting all the energy and whimsy that the audience is all too happy to share in. I'm pleased that they seem aware of this, as her presence only seems to grow with each episode.

If I ever needed a reassuring reminder as to why I shouldn’t even entertain the prospect of not finishing the show, it’d be the music. The true joy of Kill la Kill is hearing that crescendo, whenever an enemy is toppled. It’s such a satisfying feeling, that I would be perfectly content if the remaining episodes were simply an attempt in trying to replicate those moments, ad-nauseum.

In light of all this, it'd be only right to assume that I don't really like Kill la Kill? No, on the contrary, I do like it - quite a bit in fact. I just think that it could so much more, so hopefully it becomes more capable of scaling those heights, and with greater frequency.
Click to expand...

I think one of your main issues is that you are looking far too deeply into this show. For as awesome as Gurrenn Lagann, it was still a fairly simple shounen anime.

With regards to characters, Satsuki and Ryuko are both entirely different beasts, and while it might not be apparent, they both have incredibly different ideals about what to do, and remember, Satsuki is most likely not even the main protagonist in the show, her mother most likely is.

Satsuki and Ryuko are both incredibly strong willed women, but Ryuko has no control over her feelings. Pride, anger, revenge, sadness allforce Ryuko into incredibly harsh situations. Ryuko has evolved to become a better fighter, but is she more capable. Ryuko obviously has a fairly good intent on her actions, but she's been fairly incompetent on the whole due to her lack of control.

Satsuki on the other hand is the calm and collected person, and although she has theoretically less control over her suit, her control over herself is astounding. And while her views are terrible, she is always thinking ahead to the next step, a stark contrast to Ryuko. This will most likely be a heavy theme throughout the rest of the show, as it seems apparent that Ryuko and Satsuki are going to be heavily involved with eachother in some way.

The sexualization aspect was never to "empower" the women, as you like to claim, although the basis of the show is practically a japanese pun, there is still heavy fanservice. While fanservice can take away when put in really serious situations, nothing in the universe is ever serious, and while it may not be your cup of tea, I personally have no issue with it given the universe. If this type of fanservice was in a serious drama like Cowboy Bepop, then we'd have a problem, or even some type of slice of life show, then it would be an issue.

On the other hand, the animation has been good when it needed to be. Actually, some of my favorite episodes where those what were generally the most poorly animated. While the animation is not stellar, the bad animation is never bad enough to make the show worse.

Also, the character issues you have are weird. Ryuko is probably the least fleshed out character in the show (to be expected, remember, we still got 14 more episodes) all of the "gym leaders" have been superbly written and acted, Mako and her family are all awesome characters, and we barely know about Satsuki's past.

My main issue is that they had a huge climax early on and never really reached that moment since very recently. They should've really held back that fight until later, as it made it weird that Ryuko would have such problems with everyone else when Satsuki was so much more badass then everyone.

Also, while there are some good songs in the show, I absolutely despise the main theme. While I like stupid and fun J-pop (the intro to Gurren Lagann was perfect) this one is not very good. This show has some really awesome themes that delve heavily into classical music, and really, that should've been the audio throughout.
 
K

Kazzy

Member
Jarate said:
I think one of your main issues is that you are looking far too deeply into this show.
Click to expand...

I don't quite follow. You first tell me that I'm expecting too much from this series, before delivering an in-depth character analysis of your own!

That said, I think you're affording this cast far too much depth.
 
J

Jarate

Banned
Watanabe Kazuma said:
I don't quite follow. You first tell me that I'm expecting too much from this series, before delivering an in-depth character analysis of your own!

That said, I think you're affording this cast far too much depth.
Click to expand...

Its fairly easy t analyze something in some way. Full House is a show I could theoretically analyze for years, AMD theres nothing deep about it.

The only two characters that haven't been fleshed out a lot are the characters that have mystery behind them. We barely know anything around the nudist beach, we barely know anything about Satsuki's mother, or her forces. There needs to be some type of mystery to push this series forward in ways that's not purely based on action,
 
M

Mpl90

Two copies sold? That's not a bomb guys, stop trolling!!!
Just saw ALL the first 12 episodes. Maaaan...yeah, some slowness before the last episodes, but maaaaaaan...

And I'm officially a Mako fan. She's too good, I hope her role can even improve, if possible XD
 
J

Jarate

Banned
Mpl90 said:
Just saw ALL the first 12 episodes. Maaaan...yeah, some slowness before the last episodes, but maaaaaaan...

And I'm officially a Mako fan. She's too good, I hope her role can even improve, if possible XD
Click to expand...

Mako needs to be given her uniform back. Jotaro Maki is the best Mako
 
F

foxuzamaki

Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
DeadRockstar said:
I agree. I can't see the elite four and their relationship to Satsuki being relevant in the back half of the show to the degree that it will justify all this time spent on it, while the plot sat there spinning its wheels. It's nice to know that there's some history there, but there's not much indication of how Satsuki feels about that or whether it will even be important. Regardless, it doesn't feel important to me, as I'm watching. I could forgive the lack of progress more if everything going on felt worthwhile, but a lot of it doesn't.
Click to expand...

I think them having the time spent on the means they are gonna have some relevancy in the back half of the show.
 
K

Kazzy

Member
Jarate said:
Its fairly easy t analyze something in some way. Full House is a show I could theoretically analyze for years, AMD theres nothing deep about it.

The only two characters that haven't been fleshed out a lot are the characters that have mystery behind them.
Click to expand...

Anyone can analyze anything, it's whether or not it justifies that means, as a lot of it can be simple contrivances for the sake of having something to write about. There is nothing much to be gleaned from what we have been offered so far, and just hope that the second half of the shows offers up something more substantive.

As it is, I find the characters of Kill la Kill to all be extremely surface-level in their portrayals. I also think that lack of characterization is being conflated as "mystery" - but perhaps that's just me.
 
E

Essay

Member
Watanabe Kazuma said:
As it is, I find the characters of Kill la Kill to all be extremely surface-level in their portrayals. I also think that lack of characterization is being conflated as "mystery" - but perhaps that's just me.
Click to expand...

It's because all the characters are intentionally designed as absurd parodies of kitsch anime tropes. Like I mentioned a few pages ago, this show is an episodic satire designed to revel in the aesthetics it is celebrating/lampooning, much in the spirit of Don Quixote's dissection of medieval romance novels. If you're going to take it seriously, look at what it is saying about the status-quo of anime tropes, not the inconsequential "strength" of its plot and characters. Otherwise, just enjoy the ride and laugh a little. :D

Gurren Lagann was apparently something else entirely, which seems to be why so many people are torn on this. o_O
 
K

Kinyou

Member
Would this satisfy all the Gurren Lagann fans?

4c640f61aafaeb149500edbb7f.png
Click to expand...
 
F

fallagin

Member
Man, I love this show so much. I do hope the second half is better than ttgl second half.

I'm guessing that the twist will be that
Satsuki was trying to keep her family from wiping out all other people from the face of the earth by subjugating them to make them more manageable.
 
Z

zeemumu

Member
fallagin said:
Man, I love this show so much. I do hope the second half is better than ttgl second half.

I'm guessing that the twist will be that
Satsuki was trying to keep her family from wiping out all other people from the face of the earth by subjugating them to make them more manageable.
Click to expand...


Like Lordgenome?

I always thought that the twist would be that
Satsuki needs the power of the other schools in addition to her own to overthrow her mother.
 
M

Mpl90

Two copies sold? That's not a bomb guys, stop trolling!!!
I think another sub-twist would be that this is a sort-of-alternative world, like I've seen suggested on other forums. But I'm going even further: I believe it's an alternative...past.

All that talk about Second World War and...is it just me or computers seem...both modern and antiquated. Look at how Inumata's laptop represents what Ryuko is doing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU4_g2pR7W4

That's something you'd expect from an old Game Boy copycat XD
But it's not the only example: there are other times where computers have that strange screen.

I'm believing Kill la Kill is in an alternative version of the 80s...even looking at the whole city, there's something that makes me think about that era, I don't know...
 
F

fallagin

Member
zeemumu said:
Like Lordgenome?

I always thought that the twist would be that
Satsuki needs the power of the other schools in addition to her own to overthrow her mother.
Click to expand...

I dont know, she just seems like the spiral king character in this. Obviously she has some problem with her mother, and she seemed pretty threatened even by Nui(the dress girl I think thats her name).

Edit: I do agree that she seems to have more fight in her than spiral king.
 
N

NotLiquid

Member
Watanabe Kazuma said:
Seeing as I've been woefully inept at remaining current, I instead decided to postpone my plans to watch this until there was a decent of material to work through. Now's that time, and here are my impressions to go along with it!

---------------------------------

Full of bluster and bombast, there is definitely much that I find enjoyable about the show. Though, having only watched it recently, I find myself removed from the zeitgeist – knowing that this was a show that (initially) carried a great deal of hype, but not quite knowing whether that managed to persist. Now, having watched the first 12 episodes that form the first half of this tale – I find myself satisfied with what I’ve seen, if not entirely besotted.

The, shall we say, more lurid aspects of the presentation certainly rankle with me. There’s no hiding away from the fact that the fanservice is pervasive. Which is a curiousity unto itself, seeing as it is such a core aspect of Kill la Kill’s identity - for better or worse. Flagrant and excessive, even as a narrative crutch, I don't accept it as a conceit that empowers females, no. So long as each of these cuts is permeated by the pervasive leeriness that has been present from the very first episode, it will continue to detract.

Stylistically, it's clearly something that is considered, and in that regard, I can respect the clarity of vision. The narrative - from the action, all the way down to the comedy, is almost exclusively dictated by what (and how much) skin is on show. Traditionally portrayed as a particular character quirk, this mentality instead seems to permeate the entire world view of Kill la Kill. It's not so much if a individual character is overtly sexual or not, but rather how they react to it. The dichotomy of which is relatively one-note within the show. It only ever seems able to flitter between arousal and embarrassment.

The seriousness by which it treats all this is akin to a child opening a thesaurus and seeing how many different ways they can describe the female anatomy, giggling all the while. There’s no nuance, no subtly, but that admittedly isn't the intent of Kill la Kill. But if what you're left with carries some boorish undertones, is really all that admirable?

The style of the show is something which I (obviously) feel conflicted about, and this extends to the animation itself. The ramshackle nature of its presentation is quite charming, but the tendency to lean on the use of sporadic character movement does become a bit too much on times. It veers a later too much into feeling like it's a shortcut (because it is), which begins to pull the curtain back a little more than I'd like. Don’t let me conflate things, because this show does have the ability to look really good – it just seems content to only occasionally remind us of that fact.

A lot of these aspects are supplementary to the overall experience, or at least to a degree that they don't necessarily supplant the more positive aspects. Which I guess brings me to my biggest problem – the characters. It’s not so much the characterization of the cast that I have a problem with, more that they don't really have any to speak of. Even in a show that is ostensibly about the action, you still want that human element to be tangible.

An antagonist should be a foil. Basically something for our protagonist to clash against, but here we have an individual, Satsuki, who is largely ambivalent to the whole affair. The conflict exists as individuals who are on opposing sides, not necessarily a clash of personality, nor ideals (at least, mutually). It very much feels like a situation that exists within the context of being a show. It feels like an obligation - something that each protracted showdown between her and Ryuuko just exacerbates. The conceit of their conflict (and by extension, the whole narrative), ultimately, just doesn't feel all that substantive.

Even as a satellite character, it’s difficult to accept Satsuki’s position. Yes, a lot of her appeal (at least within the narrative) lies within her sheer force of will – and by extension, her power. But that’s conveyed as a simple means to an end, and many of her subordinate’s mention how it’s much more to do with her indomitable personality. The problem being that we aren't ever really privy to any of these aforementioned traits, and so what we are left with is a pretty bland and one-note character. Largely existing as an aloof bystander, I suspect this is a ploy to delay the eventual gratification of knowing exactly what her true role in all of this is. Though, it’s becoming extremely detrimental - particularly as she acts as the centre that all this hinges on. She just isn’t an engaging presence…at all. Perfection is boring, and here’s the proof.

Conversely, Mako is the spasmodic heart of the show, exhibiting all the energy and whimsy that the audience is all too happy to share in. I'm pleased that they seem aware of this, as her presence only seems to grow with each episode.

If I ever needed a reassuring reminder as to why I shouldn’t even entertain the prospect of not finishing the show, it’d be the music. The true joy of Kill la Kill is hearing that crescendo, whenever an enemy is toppled. It’s such a satisfying feeling, that I would be perfectly content if the remaining episodes were simply an attempt in trying to replicate those moments, ad-nauseum.

In light of all this, it'd be only right to assume that I don't really like Kill la Kill? No, on the contrary, I do like it - quite a bit in fact. I just think that it could so much more, so hopefully it becomes more capable of scaling those heights, and with greater frequency.
Click to expand...

Couldn't have said it better myself. The times when the show tries to be a bit more serious and have some actual depth to it, it gets undermined pretty fast and that's when the show is at it's worst for me since it's basically throwing away the really interesting bits.

I especially agree with your sentiment on Satsuki, who honestly is probably the most disappointing character in the show so far for me. She is incredibly one-note and I'm not finding much to like about her at all. If there really is a late end-game "I was secretly having a sort of honorable agenda the whole time" twist the show is doing a bad job in building up to it.
 
C

Cybran

Neo Member
So at the very end of episode 12, Kiryuin says that she will tell Ryuko the "Truth behind the life fibers". In the intro and outro of the show we see red humans forming something.

Maybe Life fibers are made from humans? Maybe Dr Matoi used parts of his body to create the Senketsu? Maybe he aged so bad cause he removed his own Nexus thread?
 
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