Since the start of this thread people have been making lazy and uninformed conclusions, and certain things needed to be said so the whole class can keep up.
Kill la Kill |OT|
- Thread starter Crash Station
- Start date
People should be beating off to Nonon. Hot damn she's fine and that voice, oh my.
Its the oldest trope ever. Villains that are perverts, promiscuous, rapists, incestuous and unfortunately, homosexual have always been used in fiction to disturb the audience.
Turin Turambar
Member
Sex as tool of power or domination is usually a male vice, not a female one.
Seen Basic Instinct?
Nah you're right, KLK right from the start obviously moved important social themes such as molestation and rape... it may be 5deep9you right in the first scene you can see that they talk about Fascism and Hitler to explain the struggle of losing WW2.
12deep47you
believe.
Booker Dewitt
Member
Femme fatale?
If it makes you guys feel better, the fan artists aren't having a field day with that scenario. Right now, they're more focused on
I think Kuroido (the fat guy that works at the Kiryuin mansion in some capacity) is going to get his at the next comiket though. I have a hunch.
Nonon's Nudist Beach outfit and Gamako.
I think Kuroido (the fat guy that works at the Kiryuin mansion in some capacity) is going to get his at the next comiket though. I have a hunch.
No. And so what if? All the important cast are female.
I should bloody hope so!
The stuff in the last episode was definitely creepy and crossed that border. It's mainly the bath scene though where I get what the intention might have been but I think someone fucked up on the storyboarding side and got carried away with it.
I don't find anything appealing about her, in fact the voice is what drives me up the wall.
Nui is even worse.
Nikodemos
Member
NANI SORE?!?
But srsly, I like that Nonon's voice isn't the typical kawaii tone.
She's also snarky, quick on her feet and good with a tantou.
Would make great waifu material for Satsuki.
I'm surprised how many people are commenting and upset about about Ryuko
And this case is even worse.
'losing her way' again, as if she does this often. She did it once before, when one of the most infuriatingly smug characters ever openly mocked her to her face about murdering her father, which was at the time her most hotbutton issue, her life goal even. it was a good reason for her to go nuts.
And this case is even worse.
Her whole world has been turned upside down, the woman she now hates most in the world is revealed to be her mother, and it turns out that she's not even fully part of the species that she loves, and the girl just came out of a month long coma. Oh, and someone suggested, the music might be heightening her negative emotions, but even if that's not the case, this isn't an out of character moment, this isn't character regression, and it's not bad writing. This is a perfectly believable reason for Ryuko to be angry, even to this extent. Are people suggesting that because she learned to deal her anger regarding one issue that she's going to go through like with a monk like calm where she never overreacts to anything ever, no matter how traumatic?
Seriously speaking besides her costumes and voice (which is better than most generic voices in anime that I can barely tell from one another) I just love smug she is. She's not just smug, she revels in being smug and it's really great even though her character type is done quite a lot.
I agree on Nui though. Nui is terrible. She's just Mako and Nonon rolled into one character yet somehow manages to be more boring than either of them.
Nui is hilarious. Love everything about her. I'd say Mako is the funnier of the two, but Nui's cute-girl-who-can-kill-you-without-breaking-a-sweat thing is just great.
The problem isn't that it's thematically inconsistent, the problem is it's really boring for me the viewer to see her
keep losing her way
heliosRAzi
Banned
So what? You could argue that it's a tired trope, but people aren't. People are saying that it's fan service when it is not.
Because bad people are assholes. They didn't make that scene to titillate the audience; they put it in so that we were repulsed by it, which it did. Pretty much everyone here found that scene and other scenes like it to be weird, creepy, and repulsive.
That's a poor criticism that doesn't really say anything and it's not how storytelling works. Characters are not going to do what we want all the time, and they shouldn't, because that's not the natural path of their development. Otherwise, characters would just be inhumane plot devices to move the story forward, which makes for poorer storytelling than having a character do something you personally consider boring ever could. Ryuko ought to have a strong reaction to this revelation and it's no surprise
that she isn't taking it well
losing her way
making her way
Edit: Also, whats the spoiler policy? I thought episodes that aired were free game?
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
Admittedly the beginning of the episode made me weak, wasent expecting her in nudist beach atire.
The problem I have with Ryuko behaving the way she's doing now is that she's never shown any signs at all from actually taking any experiences to heart. She already raised hell once when Nui claimed she killed her dad, and Mako brought her back to her senses and had her realize that circumstance or revenge was never meant to play a part in her struggles. She even admitted herself that the problem was her in Episode 13, but she doesn't really do anything about it and her solutions amount to contrived excuses. Ryuko lived the best life she ever had after meeting Senketsu and Mako, and what part of her revelation takes away from that? Three episodes ago she was ready to defend Senketsu as being more than just an object and now she can't take her own advice.
I wouldn't have had as much of a problem with where we're going now if all of this was taken place much earlier in the show but 19 episodes in and we've effectively watched a show about a protagonist with incredible mood swings who has done nothing to forward herself as a character or accomplish any goals other than assisting people more capable than her.
If this is "storytelling" it's certainly really damn uninteresting.
I wouldn't have had as much of a problem with where we're going now if all of this was taken place much earlier in the show but 19 episodes in and we've effectively watched a show about a protagonist with incredible mood swings who has done nothing to forward herself as a character or accomplish any goals other than assisting people more capable than her.
If this is "storytelling" it's certainly really damn uninteresting.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Contrary to what you heard elsewhere and are parroting here, nudity and/or sexuality in animated media does not immediately equate to "fanservice."It's annoying that often people have no issues with similar depictions in live action, but as soon as it's animated or drawn it's creep, perverted, or fan service. If you've been paying any attention at all, you can clearly see that Ragyo is not a normal or even sane person, let alone mother. Also, she appears to be priming Satsuki's body for something, possibly bonding her with fibers like Ryuko.
While Kill la Kill does not skimp on things that are blatant fan service, the Ragyo/Satsuki dynamic has more to it.
Commentary on teenage girls?
I'd say it's a matter of degrees and personal taste. At some point, certain people are going to go from this:
"Ugh, Ragyo is creepy and a bad person. Only someone who is messed up would do this."
To this:
"Ugh, I get the point, show. But why do you still need to go on about this again? It's getting ridiculous."
Can't really expect that everyone in the audience will have the same tolerance for this kind of content. It doesn't throw me off, but I can see why others dislike that.
I'd like to take a moment to play devils advocate here on the fanservice debate. First off, fanservice is a greatly misused word. It does not mean "tits and ass", it means servicing the fans. The most common way of doing this is T&A, but T&A is not automatically fanservice, and there can be fanservice without T&A. A lot of fans love Mako's 2 star uniform. If she gets it back, only for a minute or so, for little narrative reason, that would be pure, unadulterated, shameless service to the fans that wanted to see it again. Now, many people are arguing that what Ragyou is doing is for the purpose of getting the audience to hate her, but I don't think that's true, and it could also arguably be a way of fanservicing, though in a perplexingly negative way. Because the logic is that whatever is being done on screen when Ragyou is molesting Satsuki is for the fans sake, to make us feel a certain way. If this is the argument you are making, then maybe it can be called fanservice in a sense. However, the true test of the scenes worth is when you take the audience element out of it. What is happening then? Characterization and relationship dynamic. Those scenes reveal who Ragyou exactly is and how badly she hurt Satsuki. It shows us a different side of Satsuki, in a position that she can't just instantly overpower like she usually does. They give Satsuki all the more motivation and drive to do what she has done up until now and what she will do in the future. These scenes are not throw aways. They are vital to understanding the story, and if they serve a narrative purpose, they cannot be called fanservice, because it's not about the fans at that point, but whats happening to the characters.
That said...The fact is that these scenes are erotic. The shots linger on Satsuki's body longer and in more inappropriate places than they need to. This, I feel, is where the audience element should come into analysis, but not in a fanservicy way. It makes the audience feel disgusted, but not just with the character, but with themselves. Rape victims sometimes say that they feel arousal during their rape, as a pure physical reaction to the stimulation, which produces great shame on their part, as if they have somehow unwittingly become a willing participant due to that. The people criticising these scenes as fanservice seem to be saying that because so many Japanese anime shows have girls unwillingly getting nude for the audience as a means of arousal (including this show, at various points), they seem to be convinced these scenes are meant to evoke the same arousal without shame. The obvious tone of disapproval that the show generally evokes at these scenes suggests to me otherwise. What Ragyou is doing is obviously wrong and I don't think I've ever seen such visceral hatred in satsuki as we saw her when she stabbed her In the back. But the show isn't going to skim on the perversion here when it indulges the audience in so many other places. Tbh, the message seems to be saying to me "Look, T&A can be good fun and all, but we have to be mindful about how we do it, because it can be really fucked up as well." The only contradiction is that, especially early on in the show, there were lots of scene that basically had Ryuko being an unwilling participant in sexualizing situations. Not even fanservice, but like how Sengetsu forced himself on Ryuko the first time he got a drop of her blood. We never saw any T&A there, but he did literally force himself on her all the same, and that was played for comedy more than anything.
So while I think, if the message here is that 'fanserivce without the will of the participant is wrong', then it's not unthinkable why someone would come to the conclusion that the Ragyou scenes are trying to play to the audience, but only because of the shows earlier inconsistant tone with such a thing, rather than a problem with the scenes themselves, which do much more than mere fanservice does.
That said...The fact is that these scenes are erotic. The shots linger on Satsuki's body longer and in more inappropriate places than they need to. This, I feel, is where the audience element should come into analysis, but not in a fanservicy way. It makes the audience feel disgusted, but not just with the character, but with themselves. Rape victims sometimes say that they feel arousal during their rape, as a pure physical reaction to the stimulation, which produces great shame on their part, as if they have somehow unwittingly become a willing participant due to that. The people criticising these scenes as fanservice seem to be saying that because so many Japanese anime shows have girls unwillingly getting nude for the audience as a means of arousal (including this show, at various points), they seem to be convinced these scenes are meant to evoke the same arousal without shame. The obvious tone of disapproval that the show generally evokes at these scenes suggests to me otherwise. What Ragyou is doing is obviously wrong and I don't think I've ever seen such visceral hatred in satsuki as we saw her when she stabbed her In the back. But the show isn't going to skim on the perversion here when it indulges the audience in so many other places. Tbh, the message seems to be saying to me "Look, T&A can be good fun and all, but we have to be mindful about how we do it, because it can be really fucked up as well." The only contradiction is that, especially early on in the show, there were lots of scene that basically had Ryuko being an unwilling participant in sexualizing situations. Not even fanservice, but like how Sengetsu forced himself on Ryuko the first time he got a drop of her blood. We never saw any T&A there, but he did literally force himself on her all the same, and that was played for comedy more than anything.
So while I think, if the message here is that 'fanserivce without the will of the participant is wrong', then it's not unthinkable why someone would come to the conclusion that the Ragyou scenes are trying to play to the audience, but only because of the shows earlier inconsistant tone with such a thing, rather than a problem with the scenes themselves, which do much more than mere fanservice does.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
You could be right, but I wanted to make a more general point based on that.
This isn't true. Two episodes ago, Nui tried to pull the same shit, at which point Ryuko told her to fuck off with that shit, and worked in perfect sync with Sengetsu, as oppose to the monster she became in their previous encounter. That's development
This is a completely different situation. There is nothing to have revenge over. The conflict is her shame about her being a life fiber. Through the entire series, she's been constantly warned that nothing good will come from being with life fibers, but she thought she was proving them wrong by creating a bond with Sengetsu. Now she learns (or is under the impression) that was all just BS and they only worked together because she is the thing she is fighting. Combine that with the intense trauma of learning who her mother was, that she tried to have her killed as a baby, that her greatest enemy is her sister, that the world is being taken over by life fibers, which she now learns she is, which makes her feel disconnected with humanity after spending the entire series forging such a strong bond with Mako and others....
No, it's wrong to say that just because she learned that she shouldn't get angry over one specific situation, she should never get angry or traumatized ever by anything. That's ridiculous. No human character is going to be like that, not even if we were 190 episodes in. This isn't a mood swing or and this isn't doing nothing to forward herself as a character. She learned, but she's never going to be perfect and it's ridiculous to expect her to be. And it doesn't even seem she is angry to me. Well, she's pissed, but that seems to be an after effect to she shame she feels at her having been seemingly disconnected to the human race. What she feels right now is alone, not angry.
I can't do anything about you not finding it interesting, but not having her react this way or a similar way, like any human would to a hugely traumatic event, would be worse.
Sorry, but we're just going to have to agree to disagree on that part. I don't find it believable in the least when reflecting upon all the situations leading up to it as it's still making the show relentlessly change her resolves, views and accomplish nothing when she was the one who would, throughout the series, learn to appreciate the life she obtained. The only thing it ultimately changes is her past, which we already know was terrible to begin with. But that doesn't undo the life she has given value to and what she has gotten out of it, especially Senketsu, who by all means is even less human than Ryuko is. This "human" thing is only piling onto irrational things that make her less relatable and strikes me as strongly hampering pace. Ditching her friend who has been there for no one but her, and who she defended to no end, just because of a new factoid about herself happened, to me, is nonsense.
Hell, I'd go so far as to say that Simon in Gurren Lagann experienced far more "human" loss than Ryuko did, since we got to see his life unfold and actually understood why what happened was such a big deal to him. The second time it happened he learnt how to deal with it and accepted it.
This is a twist that should have happened at least eight episodes ago when she didn't claim to know the real problem. Now it's just slowing things down.
I completely understand why Ryuko is behaving the way she is but it's still really obnoxious. No one wants to see her bitch again, all it will do is slow down the plot I think. Ryuko is always pissed and it's annoying. Shit is really hitting the fan at this point. No one has time to deal with her bullshit right now. She needs to realize that there are more important things at stake than her own emotions and get inside the fucking Senketsu. Hopefully it doesn't take her more than a single episode to do this.
Damn, now I understand why people hate Shinji. I really like Shinji too.
Damn, now I understand why people hate Shinji. I really like Shinji too.
To save Ryuko and everyone who hasn't been possessed from the COVERS.
Moral Panic
Member
The fact that it is erotic titillation in a show full of erotic titillation is what makes it fan service.
It feels like people will defend anything this show does, no matter how silly it is. I bet they could have pedobait and people would be talking about how it is a clear parody of how sexualisation affects young children.
RockTurtle
Member
or maybe people take the works of entertainment at face value and don't automatically equate it to real life happenings? it's not like it's PROMOTING molesting your daughters.
also i don't know why the need to bring the straw man comparisons to pedophilia. come on we are at episode 19, at this point all the ins and outs of western sensibilities to fanservice from japan shouldn't invite such...fervor.
You must be one of the people who did Harry Potter book bonfires. I mean, fuck, kids using sorcery and black magic!
Crash55118
Member
I'm really confused at the hate. No one is forcing any one to keep watching.
I kind of feel like the action being tied to exposition makes it less of a fanservice issue, and more of an issue with narrative direction. There are problems with Kill La Kill, but the interactions between Ragyo and Satsuki don't seem to be among them - at least as I see it.
Loved this episode, fairly certain I'd put it Kill La Kill above TTGL at this point.
I kind of feel like the action being tied to exposition makes it less of a fanservice issue, and more of an issue with narrative direction. There are problems with Kill La Kill, but the interactions between Ragyo and Satsuki don't seem to be among them - at least as I see it.
Loved this episode, fairly certain I'd put it Kill La Kill above TTGL at this point.
Not to mention fucking Blumenkranz.
The music really makes half the show.
heliosRAzi
Banned
Did you find it erotic?
Lufiaddict
Member
And voice acting makes the second half. And humor, the third.
Freezasaurus
Member
I listen to that track all the time. Whole soundtrack is great, though.
I think Ryuko is just generally unbalanced, partly due to her shitty childhood and to the fact that she's still a teenager. She lashes out when she's angry, and right now Senketsu is getting the brunt of it. I'm sure she'll come around after she's had her tantrum--a tantrum she has had every right to throw.
As for the Ragyo/Satsuki scenes,I wish they weren't in the show. Scenes of molestation show that Ragyo is evil, of course, but there are other ways to achieve that that would be more appropriate to a show where a girl fights evil with a giant scissor in a magic super suit. Having a molestation scene and a scene where Mako's mother checks out Mikisugi's junk for comedic effect in the same episode? It's just jarring.
As for the Ragyo/Satsuki scenes,I wish they weren't in the show. Scenes of molestation show that Ragyo is evil, of course, but there are other ways to achieve that that would be more appropriate to a show where a girl fights evil with a giant scissor in a magic super suit. Having a molestation scene and a scene where Mako's mother checks out Mikisugi's junk for comedic effect in the same episode? It's just jarring.
The budget on this show clearly isn't great, but that explosion was the shittiest looking thing.
SixMachine
Member
That's pretty hilarious in hindsight. Ryuko was battle ready then ktfo by Satsuki's plan.
In the next 2 episodes I won't be surprised if we see Satsuki finally broken and get a berserk form (probably has something to do with what Ragyo planned for her). Even though she keeps going on about resolve and taking things to the next level, it obviously is wearing her out, especially since she is still in the fear is control, blah, blah nonsense. I know a lot of people like that kind of character, and I do like it in some degree, but when you think about it, those kinds of people only cause trouble in the real world (but obviously this is an anime, so doesn't necessarily need to apply that logic here).
I just hope Ryuko gets over her problem with Senketsu real quick. It's understandable to have her angry with all that transpired but I think for the pacing of the show, the twist should have happened episodes earlier so they could manage it better instead of, "GROAN, SHE LOST HER WAY AGAIN!" feeling because you know it's near endgame.
I just hope Ryuko gets over her problem with Senketsu real quick. It's understandable to have her angry with all that transpired but I think for the pacing of the show, the twist should have happened episodes earlier so they could manage it better instead of, "GROAN, SHE LOST HER WAY AGAIN!" feeling because you know it's near endgame.
Kinda eh on that, but seeing Gamagori blush more will be worth it.