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[Orayn]

Saw this article on my Twitter feed, found it pretty interesting. It sort of touches upon another piece about the forms of masculinity on display in stealth games and how they differ from the way "strong" characters are depicted in other games.

Some snippets:

Hollywood action-adventure films in particular have generally worked with ideas regarding representations of masculinity. Susan Jeffords' Hard Bodies: Hollywood Masculinity in the Reagan Era is dedicated in its entirety to describing how masculinity is portrayed in Hollywood action-adventure films of the '80s. In Jeffords' words: “I chose to examine some of the most popular films—by box office figures—of the period precisely because their popularity must, I believe, indicate something about what kinds of stories mainstream audiences were interested in seeing, what characters they found compelling, and what images they found worth repeating." She then derived the quintessential “model” hero of '80s Hollywood, the ideal of masculinity that the audience members enjoyed viewing.

One of the key facets of Reagan-era masculinity is then defined by physical strength, being the best by taking out all the enemies. This leaves little room for issues such as post-traumatic stress, much less any strong emotion that leaves the man vulnerable. The Reagan-era man is a morally cut-and-dry figure, with clear delineation between good guys and bad guys. John Rambo exemplifies this. Rambo is a national symbol of toughness who “wins” his films by “defeating enemies through violent physical action.” The hero rarely feels bad for his foes, rarely feels regret in taking out his opponents. The '80s man is purely focused on the task at hand with little regard for interpersonal pleasantries, not at all interested in reflecting upon the impact of his actions.

The 90s man was no longer in touch with his whiteness, instead seeking spirituality from other sources such as east Asia and native America (See Dances With Wolves, The X-Files, On Deadly Ground). He is more in touch with his femininity. A newfound openness to different perspectives has removed the '80s man's rigid adherence to simplistic moral attitudes.

Now, videogames of the '90s were somewhat informed by these new paths of masculinity, but they remain in many ways still within the grip of '80s sensibilities. In the '90s, American and American-inspired videogames did change somewhat, in terms of plot and underlying moral ideals, in ways that match this new masculinity. Yet certain key tenants of the '80s form remain. Two examples dot either end of the decade: id Software's Doom and Konami's Metal Gear sequel Metal Gear Solid.

http://killscreendaily.com/articles/videogames-and-80s-hollywood-masculinity-love-story/

 

[FriedConsole]

Was this written 10 years ago when it was more relevant? Things have changed. Sure there are still games coming out like this but they are a small minority of total games.

 

[A-V-B]

Why do people in articles keep talking about MGS as an example of super outdated machoism?

 

[Wowfunhappy]

Was this written 10 years ago when it was more relevant? Things have changed. Sure there are still games coming out like this but they are a small minority of total games.

?!?!?

I'm... honestly not sure where you're coming from. In the majority of mainstream AAA releases, this absolutely still applies.

Edit: Although using MGS as an example might not have been a great choice.

 

[Orayn]

Why do people in articles keep talking about MGS as an example of super outdated machoism?

The articles mainly talks about the ways in which Solid Snake fits the mold in Metal Gear and MGS1. I agree that the rest of the series mixes it up a lot more.

 

[Greddleok]

Because that's the best era of masculinity.

 

[kadotsu]

I feel like this isn't true, even in the AAA space. We have the paternal protagonist in the Last of US, the PTSD in Spec Ops and much more protagonists that get powers against their will (inFamous, Assassin's Creed).

Also John Rambo might not be the best example if you complain about action movies not dealing with PTSD.

 

[Lime]

Because that's the best era of masculinity.

It's pretty terrible though. Blind patriotism, neglect of emotions, dominance over others, lack of introspection and flaws, etc.

 

[SpaceWolf]

 

[freenudemacusers]

loooool @ using a steven segal flick as an example of evolved masculinity.

Also John Rambo might not be the best example if you complain about action movies not dealing with PTSD.

also ^

 

[Lime]

On topic I would blame this on the industry's lack of caring about writing and narrative. The industry at large still doesn't care about hiring proper writers and integrate them successfully into preproduction and production. Couple this with faulty market logic ruled by capitalism, and you just continue with the status quo of shitty writing, shitty storytelling and shitty themes.

Also John Rambo might not be the best example if you complain about action movies not dealing with PTSD.

It's obviously referring to Rambo 2 and beyond where it got constructed as hyper masculine patriotism.

 

[FriedConsole]

?!?!?

I'm... honestly not sure where you're coming from. In the majority of mainstream AAA releases, this absolutely still applies.

Edit: Although using MGS as an example might not have been a great choice.

Well AAA games don't make up a significant amount of games made today. Of games I can think of in the last 2 years I just got COD. Feel free to list games.

 

[inky]

The 90s man was no longer in touch with his whiteness, instead seeking spirituality from other sources such as east Asia and native America (See Dances With Wolves, The X-Files, On Deadly Ground).

Meh, a lot of that is still a white man colonialist wankfest, just of a different kind. Point still stands on macho attitude and physical strength I guess, but hardly an ideal to strive for.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Because in the genre of killing everything on screen, a dainty character makes little sense?

Look at the composure of real world soldiers, male or female.

 

[A-V-B]

The articles mainly talks about the ways in which Solid Snake fits the mold in Metal Gear and MGS1. I agree that the rest of the series mixes it up a lot more.

But even MGS1 is a statement on that kind of thing. It's not a macho brawl that kills the ripped and shirtless feathered-hair man. It's a virus, designed and named by a woman. As soon as that happens - after you've spent the entire game encouraged to sneak and knock people out instead of flexing your trigger finger like Arnold or Stallone - Metal Gear as a series dives into something even more different, and stays there for a long time. MGS2 is a goofy (and then wildly serious) deconstruction of MGS1's Tom Clancy-esque story, and an interesting study of the information age. MGS3 is an homage to the 60's instead of the 80's, and mildly deconstructs itself by the end. MGS4 stars a dying old man who wants to kill himself.

 

[Orayn]

Because in the genre of killing everything on screen, a dainty character makes little sense?

Look at the composure of real world soldiers, male or female.

The article isn't just about the way characters look, and real life soldiers are neither here nor there. More of it is focused on the characters' moral outlooks, motivations, and how/whether they show their emotions.

But even MGS1 is a statement on that kind of thing. It's not a macho brawl that kills the ripped and shirtless feathered-hair man. It's a virus, designed and named by a woman. As soon as that happens - after you've spent the entire game encouraged to sneak and knock people out instead of flexing your trigger finger like Arnold or Stallone - Metal Gear as a series dives into something even more different, and stays there for a long time. MGS2 is a goofy (and then wildly serious) deconstruction of MGS1's Tom Clancy-esque story, and an interesting study of the information age. MGS3 is an homage to the 60's instead of the 80's, and mildly deconstructs itself by the end. MGS4 stars a dying old man who wants to kill himself.

Being in the middle of a MGS series playthrough right now, I agree completely. Metal Gear started as an homage to those action movies, but went more and more into deconstructing them as time went on.

 

[YoYo Switch]

I like Kill Screen but articles like this are just sweeping generalizations

There are so many different types of games available that cater to all sorts of tastes. This masculine thing isn't an industry wide thing at all. It's just another aesthetic in a wide sea of different types of worlds and stories.

 

[jman2050]

The merit of the article's points is mostly sound enough, but as an aside does this author even have a clue what First Blood was about?

 

[Patapwn]

I dont know why you play video games but i play them to 1. Have fun and 2. Feel empowered

Sometimes both go hand and hand which is what i like and will continue to buy in the futute. Considering rambo badasses are pretty abundant i would guess theres plenty of people like me voting with their dollars.

 

[inky]

I like Kill Screen but articles like this are just sweeping generalizations

There are so many different types of games available that cater to all sorts of tastes. This masculine thing isn't an industry wide thing at all. It's just another aesthetic in a wide sea of different types of worlds and stories.

To me it feels like talking about how everything is a superhero movie these days. In a sense, those people have point, they are very prominent and inform a lot of the studio decisions... but on the other hand, cinema is much more diverse than that. Superhero movies are just a very small percentage of the releases each year that you can really just ignore them if you try a little and focus in everything else that is out there. Same kind of applies here I think.

 

[Sgt.Pepper]

Doom's the demonstration of the frustrated 90's man? Honestly lost me on this.

 

[MichaelFassbender]

Rambo? As in boring? Oh no, this is quite misguided.

 

[Visualante2]

When you think about how influential Aliens has been on video games, there's an interesting argument for that creative stagnation. But at the same time the average gamer's age has increased so much. Is the industry just catering to people with taste stuck in the 80s? Article lost me a bit with the comparisons to Claude though.

I think it really highlights how much Telltale's The Walking Dead has done to push the medium forward. Lee was a huge achievement for masculinity in games. Hopefully we'll have something better to talk about when this decade is done.

 

[Orayn]

The merit of the article's points is mostly sound enough, but as an aside does this author even have a clue what First Blood was about?

I think it reflects what wound up happening to Rambo over time. First Blood, the Rambo movie that actually deals with heavy themes and has a very low body count, winds up being overshadowed in some respects by the sequels.

 

[BennyBlanco]

It's pretty terrible though. Blind patriotism, neglect of emotions, dominance over others, lack of introspection and flaws, etc.

80s action movies aren't terrible. In fact they're the exact opposite of terrible.

Predator, Commando, First Blood, Robocop, Rocky.... Endlessly watchable.

 

[Kyuur]

This article is only remotely true if you're blinded to 90% of the industry.

 

[A-V-B]

When you think about how influential Aliens has been on video games, there's an interesting argument for that creative stagnation.

Even Aliens is a bit unconventional. All the macho guys end up getting eaten. The soft-spoken ones survive (barely) while two desperate, pissed off mothers fight to the death for their children.

 

[Lime]

80s action movies aren't terrible. In fact they're the exact opposite of terrible.

Predator, Commando, First Blood, Robocop, Rocky.... Endlessly watchable.

In regards to masculinity yeah they're terrible.

"Stupid fun" or whatever, but it's garbage in regards to what it means to be a man (a human being with empathy, introspection, morals, non-white, etc)

 

[freenudemacusers]

The article isn't just about the way characters look, and real life soldiers are neither here nor there. More of it is focused on the characters' moral outlooks, motivations, and how/whether they show their emotions.

well i assume this article is focused on 'aaa' gaming but considering the level of writing is having a 'white guy' protagonist with sensitive, multicultural attributes really any sort of meaningful improvement? do i really want to suffer through a clunky show of emotions?

if anything, 80s style 'shoot baddies no feelings' action makes a lot more sense for, well, action games.

non-white

you should let the author know that patrick swayze, steven segal, david duchovny, and kevin costner are pretty white.

 

[faridmon]

This was more true 5 years ago, nowadays, we have more diversity in charters and plotlines.

 

[Magic Mushroom]

Robocop is anything but stupid fun. It's a wonderfully written and directed satire of corporate greed.

 

[BennyBlanco]

In regards to masculinity yeah they're terrible.

"Stupid fun" or whatever, but it's garbage in regards to what it means to be a man (a human being with empathy, introspection, morals, non-white, etc)

Kinda curious if you've ever seen First Blood. It's not really a typical action movie and nothing like the other Rambo movies.

 

[A-V-B]

Robocop is anything but stupid fun. It's a wonderfully written and directed satire of corporate greed.

That's Verhoeven for you. Constantly masking intelligent themes with a parody surface that makes it look so much dumber than it is. Starship Troopers might be the defining example of this. That movie has a ton underneath the topsoil.

Kinda curious if you've ever seen First Blood. It's not really a typical action movie and nothing like the other Rambo movies.

That movie is mostly just a broken veteran on the run from people who don't understand what's going on in his head. I can't even remember if he kills anyone. I don't think he does.

 

[YoYo Switch]

To me it feels like talking about how everything is a superhero movie these days. In a sense, those people have point, they are very prominent and inform a lot of the studio decisions... but on the other hand, cinema is much more diverse than that that superhero movies are just a very small percentage of the releases each year that you can really just ignore them if you try a little and focus in everything else that is out there.

Yes precisely my point. It's easy to find stuff if we look. Games aren't as grey as they seem.

And I don't understand how writers in positions where they play and see a lot of games, for free at that, complain that everything's the same. Instead of letting stuff slip through the cracks, it might be good for games writing as a whole if these different, mid tier games don't go ignored anymore.

 

[rpmurphy]

At least they have hair now.

 

[patapuf]

I feel even in AAA gaming i don't see a lot of 80's movie stuff anymore.

Of course, that's aside from the "dominating your enemies with strength" stuff. But that's par of the course of action movies even in 2015.

 

[BennyBlanco]

That's Verhoeven for you. Constantly masking intelligent themes with a parody surface that makes it look so much dumber than it is. Starship Troopers might be the defining example of this. That movie has a ton underneath the topsoil.

Yup. Great flick and even better book.

 

[Into]

I love it. I love 80s action movies, masculinity and video games. What a combination of three awesome things that blend so well

Predator is better than anything Hollywood has shat out the last 2 decades, not even a contest.

I also love how it pisses off people i generally have nothing in common with. See, it just becomes more and more awesome by the second. God i love it. Got a man tear in my eye, gonna go lift some weights to Rocky IV soundtrack

 

[freenudemacusers]

it's also weird to compare a movie like dances with wolves to commando.

Kinda curious if you've ever seen First Blood. It's not really a typical action movie and nothing like the other Rambo movies.

i'm convinced the author has never seen a steven segal movie

In the second camp, we see our Hollywood heroes shifting from the likes of Sylvester Stallone and Arnold Schwarzenegger to Patrick Swayze and Steven Seagal. Muscled, tough, stoic heroes were replaced by sensitive men—though still tough, no doubt—who used violence sparingly and valued their mental wellbeing.

 

[Dennis]

I don't know.

Feels like that the premise for that article is the least true right now than it has ever been for gaming.

 

[A-V-B]

i'm convinced the author has never seen a steven segal movie

He did some horrible things to those guys in Under Siege.

 

[JDMC13]

I'm surprised no-one has brought up Geralt in Witcher 3 as a deconstruction of this. How he presents this sort of ultra-masculine aura, but he's still someone who cares about the people around him, especially Ciri.

 

[Fitts]

It's pretty terrible though. Blind patriotism, neglect of emotions, dominance over others, lack of introspection and flaws, etc.

Sounds great to me.

It's escapism. Give me big, dumb, and loud.

 

[Shai-Tan]

It probably has something to do with the normal constraints of gameplay, not a kind of deeper reflection on masculine identity. It's much easier to have fields of enemies to defeat in a battle arena than more complex gameplay with narrative complexity. It would be great if games could at least match the better action movies in narrative, sadly story tends to be window dressing. Part of the problem is more engaging parts of story are less engaging for gameplay. I think there are some dogmas in game design that get in the way of conveying more complex characters and story like not having down time in action.

 

[Doctor_Thomas]

In regards to masculinity yeah they're terrible.

"Stupid fun" or whatever, but it's garbage in regards to what it means to be a man.

While true for some of those, not all those movies aren't the same in their portrayal of men:

First Blood is about a returning soldier being shunned by society and has a PTSD reaction to his treatment. He doesn't want to hurt anyone and is only trying to survive in a world that is very different from the one he left. Rambo is the most human character in the entire thing and it's only his friend and commander who is able to "take him out", not with violence but with a heart to heart talk.

Rocky is about an amature boxer being given the chance at greatness and being an underdog, acknowledged for not being smart, but being caring and loyal. He has compassion, when he's told to get money near the start of the film, he lets the guy go and then it chastised for it.... but even that guy acknowledges that he's a good guy. He doesn't fight anyone unless it's in the ring.

In both First Blood and Rocky, the violence is either in competition or as self-defence.

The rest, aye, I suppose.

 

[Magic Mushroom]

i'm convinced the author has never seen a steven segal movie

Haha. Perhaps he refers to Seagal's environmental speech at the end of On Deadly Ground.

 

[Ivan Amiibo]

maybe because Rambo-esque masculinity is timeless and profitable

duh

 

[PetulantChild]

Um, it isn't? I swear "journalists" are stuck 20 years in the past and are just looking for things to whine about. There are plenty of games targeted at female audiences, it just so happens that the games targeting male audiences seem to sell more (both to males and females) and get more attention.

 

[KHlover]

Well yeah if you include the 95% of videogames that aren't you might get to that conclusion.

 

[Leafhopper]

To me it feels like talking about how everything is a superhero movie these days. In a sense, those people have point, they are very prominent and inform a lot of the studio decisions... but on the other hand, cinema is much more diverse than that that superhero movies are just a very small percentage of the releases each year that you can really just ignore them if you try a little and focus in everything else that is out there. Same kind of applies here I think.

Well that's the problem. People for the most part are only going to get hung up on AAA retail games and that's it.