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Killer Instinct Season 2 |OT| It's international RIPTOOOOORRRRRR day.

tapedeck

Do I win a prize for talking about my penis on the Internet???
Hey guys, what's the main KI forum these days? I found Ultra-Combo but its pretty dead. Any more active KI forums around? I'm a KI novice and want to get into the game more. Thanks.
Ultra-combo.com is the official forum, I wouldn't say it's 'dead' but of course much slower than GAF. That forum can be REALLY hit and miss with who posts there though, there's some good contributors but it's mostly dominated by dumb.

You could try SRK's KI forum, it was fairly active last time I posted there.

Also check out infils fantastic KI guide if you haven't already, it's stickied at ultra-combo.com

Would a Minotaur work as a character?

Edit. Boom

God damn, I don't think I will ever 100% this game..well done.
 
I don't really know if DH could keep to a "No nerf" policy if they got to such a group of layered characters (which KI pretty much NEEDS to have to have more than palette-swaps of characters after a certain number).

The "nerfs" alongside the system changes are... bold, really. The kind of thing that normally happens really deep into established fighting series. We're working on the major parts that keep the series from those who dislike it within a years time, rather than on the next iteration 6 years after the last one.

The thing is how DH went with nerfs. They didn't do a Capcom and say, "well let's just give them less damage, smaller hitbox, easier trades, longer start-up/recovery frames on hit/block etc". What DH did was understand what made the character good, find a way to keep the already existing [insert character name] players happy and the the people who don't play said character unhappy when they go against them.

A perfect example was Sabrewulf. Sabrewulf on launch could do a full combo (normal heavy auto-double > heavy linker > combo > eclipse/Launch ender) for a decent amount of damage which would total around 45%. However, since it's a launch ender, it meant the opponent was still on their way down after the launch. What Sabrewulf could then do is a Shadow Eclipse and score a huge 10% extra on at the end of his combo was was unbreakable. Instead of just nerfing everything about Sabrewulf, DH kept that in, but then changed it so that any more AFTER an ender would scale correctly. This meant that Sabrewulf players could do that 45% combo, follow up with a Shadow Eclipse if they want but now it would scale correctly.
DH never took the easy route for nerfs and buffs but instead reworked the characters to fit inline with the mechanics without just simply taking stuff away. That's just one example, I can name more with Sadira, Jago etc.

Now with Iron Galaxy taking the reigns, they went full nerf/buff fest and ruined Sabrewulf. Sabrewulf now has startup on his crouching light punch, he doesn't have a fast back dash but instead hops backward, his Eclipse now has 1 frame start up, his instinct is now a form of cancel where you press both Heavy buttons to cancel any move....I dunno why you would want to do that as Sabrewulf and so on. I'm not a Sabrewulf player moaning, I play everyone but mostly Jago and Glacius.

Killer Instinct used to be a very balanced game with the worst matchup probably being Glacius/Sabrewulf vs Thunder at a 4.4 - 5.6 match up. But it didn't really mean much, Thunder is still very much a competitive threat. Now it's just a top tier fest like Smash and Street Fighter were Spinal in insanely good and Kan-ra just shifts the entire game into a new keep away chip fest. It's not the same game anymore.

So, what were the changes? Can anyone briefly summarize any major balance changes, please? Apart from that we got Kim Wu and Arbiter, right?
https://www.ultra-combo.com/season3rebalance/

A good list of changes here. I'm personally not happy with a lot of it. Dropping out of KI once Season 3 hits.

Would a Minotaur work as a character?

Edit. Boom

Dude, good stuff! Congratulations
 

Sydle

Member
BumblebeeCody, I don't understand the aim of your complaints and it seems that you're constantly unhappy with the direction of the game. Giving it up for good sounds like the best course of action for you.

It's still a very balanced game. We just witnessed wins of every character in a top 32 tournament, including an Omen in top 3 FFS.

Would a Minotaur work as a character?

Edit. Boom

Congrats on the achievements. Very impressive.

Hey guys, what's the main KI forum these days? I found Ultra-Combo but its pretty dead. Any more active KI forums around? I'm a KI novice and want to get into the game more. Thanks.

It's highly active in season and it's the only place where the devs are regularly interacting with players. Heart and Isgreen drop in here from time to time, but they, and a couple of the other devs are regularly active there. I'd recommend joining.
 

Warxard

Banned
Now with Iron Galaxy taking the reigns, they went full nerf/buff fest and ruined Sabrewulf. Sabrewulf now has startup on his crouching light punch, he doesn't have a fast back dash but instead hops backward, his Eclipse now has 1 frame start up, his instinct is now a form of cancel where you press both Heavy buttons to cancel any move....I dunno why you would want to do that as Sabrewulf and so on. I'm not a Sabrewulf player moaning, I play everyone but mostly Jago and Glacius.

Killer Instinct used to be a very balanced game with the worst matchup probably being Glacius/Sabrewulf vs Thunder at a 4.4 - 5.6 match up. But it didn't really mean much, Thunder is still very much a competitive threat. Now it's just a top tier fest like Smash and Street Fighter were Spinal in insanely good and Kan-ra just shifts the entire game into a new keep away chip fest. It's not the same game anymore.

Wait you don't understand the convenience of canceling Shadow moves you messed up...? Or canceling Specials to land easier manuals doing instinct? What?

Killer Instinct is still a very viable game. I mean for fuck's sake, top 8 for KIWC was way more variable than ever. Season 2 Wulf is still arguably the best character in the game lmfao what are you talking about
 

btags

Member
Did the season 2 rebalance of season 1 characters release before season 2 came out? For some reason I have that idea and I really hope something similar happens before season 3 comes out.
 

VariantX

Member
Is the PC version is coming in March? Will there be cross play?

Yes, theres supposed to be crossplay between PC and XBO. I seriously hope they get a beta going soon to test out the crossplay functionality like SF5 did. I really want season 3 to hit the ground running for PC players and leave a good impression of the franchise on a new audience.
 

CodeNfX

Member
Yes and yes

Yes, theres supposed to be crossplay between PC and XBO. I seriously hope they get a beta going soon to test out the crossplay functionality like SF5 did. I really want season 3 to hit the ground running for PC players and leave a good impression of the franchise on a new audience.

Sweet! SFV works wonder with cross play. I have KI on XBO but only have X360 stick so I haven't really play it much. I don't want to drop another huge amount on another stick so this will work out quite well.
 

DopeyFish

Not bitter, just unsweetened
Sweet! SFV works wonder with cross play. I have KI on XBO but only have X360 stick so I haven't really play it much. I don't want to drop another huge amount on another stick so this will work out quite well.

also it's cross buy so you technically already own it for pc
 
anyone know where that KI shirt came from?

It's just a KI logo with a circle around it, tons of people were wearing it during the KI cup.
 

SAB CA

Sketchbook Picasso
The thing is how DH went with nerfs. They didn't do a Capcom and say, "well let's just give them less damage, smaller hitbox, easier trades, longer start-up/recovery frames on hit/block etc". What DH did was understand what made the character good, find a way to keep the already existing [insert character name] players happy and the the people who don't play said character unhappy when they go against them.

The sample size of how DH handled nerfs with the much smaller cast is an issue here. We really don't know exactly how DH would have handled KI with this large a group of characters.

Having said that, I don't think IG nerfs Capcom style. They haven't made any hitboxes that are worse than the animation. They haven't taken the fun away from a character in a legit way; if anything, they reign stuff in that most other fighters wouldn't allow... while giving you stuff that still fits into that category, just with a more solid philosophy behind it.

A perfect example was Sabrewulf. Sabrewulf on launch could do a full combo (normal heavy auto-double > heavy linker > combo > eclipse/Launch ender) for a decent amount of damage which would total around 45%. However, since it's a launch ender, it meant the opponent was still on their way down after the launch. What Sabrewulf could then do is a Shadow Eclipse and score a huge 10% extra on at the end of his combo was was unbreakable. Instead of just nerfing everything about Sabrewulf, DH kept that in, but then changed it so that any more AFTER an ender would scale correctly.

So... they fixed something that was overperforming. Ok...

This meant that Sabrewulf players could do that 45% combo, follow up with a Shadow Eclipse if they want but now it would scale correctly.
DH never took the easy route for nerfs and buffs but instead reworked the characters to fit inline with the mechanics without just simply taking stuff away. That's just one example, I can name more with Sadira, Jago etc.

How does IG take the easy route? They've given characters new tools, new moves that covered previously weak spots (Aganos Anti-air Flick, Thunders self-buff, Orchid's Bombs, Sabers Cancels, Sadira's escape special and ender, etc), and they very rarely remove anything that's meaningful. Look at how little Kan Ra was nerfed, even though many players would have called for loads more. Look at the fact they INCREASED the juggle ability of the game, rather than removed it, or try to foce the game to rely on more of an (easily manageable) ground game.

Now with Iron Galaxy taking the reigns, they went full nerf/buff fest and ruined Sabrewulf. Sabrewulf now has startup on his crouching light punch, he doesn't have a fast back dash but instead hops backward, his Eclipse now has 1 frame start up, his instinct is now a form of cancel where you press both Heavy buttons to cancel any move....I dunno why you would want to do that as Sabrewulf and so on. I'm not a Sabrewulf player moaning, I play everyone but mostly Jago and Glacius.[/quote}
The things that they took away were things that made Saber a crazily oppressive force, to the point where people did not enjoy playing him, or against him, because he felt too easy to dominate with.

The changes you mention still allow him to be such a force... but now there's more method to the madness.

Having a self-cancel to basically make ANY move into a high-pressure tool, make unsafe moves safe, and allow him to get unnatural frame advantage off moves.. you can't see why an opponent would want such a cancel? The same reason People like Stance-Canceling with Whip and Chin in KoF, Squiggly in Skullgirls, or with Vega in SFV; it's a quick recovery move that allows you to get unusual advantage off situations other characters cannot.

Killer Instinct used to be a very balanced game with the worst matchup probably being Glacius/Sabrewulf vs Thunder at a 4.4 - 5.6 match up. But it didn't really mean much, Thunder is still very much a competitive threat. Now it's just a top tier fest like Smash and Street Fighter were Spinal in insanely good and Kan-ra just shifts the entire game into a new keep away chip fest. It's not the same game anymore.

It used to be balanced when people only found 2 or 3 characters really worth using at tourney level, but now, when almost every character showed up in a Tournament where people know even MORE about the game, with a much larger roster, it's LESS balanced?

And now the S3 changes are happening. Almost every system change was made so that the game would lose less momentum. Every character that had a hard time getting in has been given new tools to do such (new runspeeds on Wulf, as well as his dive slash, Orchid's DP cancel out of her slide, Hisako's new ability to cancel into her tele, Thunder's dash-cancel buff, etc). Spinal no longer steal meter, but stops the growth of it, making him have MORE reason to get in and attack, so that he can build while they receive nothing more.

If anything, I think IG is listening to the problems you have with S2, and making adjustments that not only fall in line with your main desire (Modifying without destroying the characters and systems), but also putting more work into achieving this than most other developers do.

They're not going the Capcom way, that balances tool strength with less HP on the characters. They build systems atop what the character has become to the players, and try to say "how can you do what you've developed, but in a more fair fashion?" The normalizing of Shadow counters and input buffers and frame timing off auto doubles is directly in line with what DH preached with their initial systems. And I'm really glad they didn't backpedal on many changes (Such as giving Thunder his Phoenix back, or making Glacius less alien looking, more normal-man ish), when they probably could have generated some easy love from naysayers by doing such thing.

IG definitely isn't perfect. They make odd little errors or release with things that make you wonder "How did THAT ever get to final build?", and they sit on things many of us think should have been changed long ago.

But at the same time, they also seem to put more into updating this game than almost any other company on a similar product. The fact they keep trying to make S1 and S2 character relevant, rather than just buff up and release the new hotness, is actually quite impressive. Glacius Multi-hail and new instinct trickery brings him closer to elements I loved about him in KI 1 and 2, and actually almost makes me look forward to trying him again, as I am in trying out Kim Wu. Giving everyone normal attacks that force flip-out, leading to a universally accessible mind-game too, that strengthens the application of juggle enders, is a great idea. Marrying Juggle and Hard Knockdown to the same ender also gives more depth to that ender type, and keeps you opponent on their toes, while also softening the blow of Sweeps becoming Combo Break-able. One of DH's largest tenants of KI gameplay was to always make playing the game a 2-way interaction, and much of S3's changes encourage and strengthen that, more-so than ever before.
 

DopeyFish

Not bitter, just unsweetened
the thing with sabre was he had too much damage for the amount of mixups he had.

now his mixup game is a bit easier to fight against... and his instinct isn't so ridiculous and he's a little bit easier to read and defend while having more sane damage.

even with the nerfs, i still think he's going to be top tier because he commands the ground game like no one else...
 

.la1n

Member
I miss when Mick used to post parts of upcoming tracks or the entire tracks after a character was announced. I need to know what Kim Wu's theme sounds like without effects covering it up.

Oh, and if you guys missed the Saucy Suite after KI World Cup you should watch the archive, good stuff:

http://www.twitch.tv/st_ultimate/v/39258277

Keits brought one of the dev Xboxes so we actually have a lot of direct feed Season 3 footage.

Word of warning: keep volume control handy because the drunker people get the louder it gets.

I saw this too, but I can't remember where.

Adam Isgreen confirmed it over at the Ultra-Combo forums.
 

Sydle

Member
I miss when Mick used to post parts of upcoming tracks or the entire tracks after a character was announced. I need to know what Kim Wu's theme sounds like without effects covering it up.

Oh, and if you guys missed the Saucy Suite after KI World Cup you should watch the archive, good stuff:

http://www.twitch.tv/st_ultimate/v/39258277

Keits brought one of the dev Xboxes so we actually have a lot of direct feed Season 3 footage.

Word of warning: keep volume control handy because the drunker people get the louder it gets.

ShinTristan is a terrible drunk. He's being super offensive. I can't listen to that.
 

.la1n

Member
ShinTristan is a terrible drunk. He's being super offensive. I can't listen to that.

Must have completely missed that but I was watching it on mute after the first minute or so. Do you mean saying offensive things or just using a lot of profanity?
 

Sydle

Member
Must have completely missed that but I was watching it on mute after the first minute or so. Do you mean saying offensive things or just using a lot of profanity?

He was calling them fagg*ts repeatedly and then yelling something about this being the army and semper fi. Paul B was telling him he can't say that, but he continued doing it anyway.

Unacceptable.
 

.la1n

Member
He was calling them fagg*ts repeatedly and then yelling something about this being the army and semper fi. Paul B was telling him he can't say that, but he continued doing it anyway.

Unacceptable.

Yeah not okay. Cameras + too much alcohol almost always ends in disaster, he's going to watch this later and regret it.

As for what was shown of Season 3, the new lighting engine on Kim Wu's stage makes a big difference in how good the game looks.
 
Just saw that Keits tweeted about that hilarious Riptor mirror that I said was one of my most memorable moment of KICup lol! It was actually a good match too so check it out if any one of y'all missed it! Hell, I think I'm gonna rewatch this tourney throughout the week since it was sooo good. https://twitter.com/TheKeits/status/694375732642861057

Also I knew from the start that Arbiter + Stage was in game since they had plenty of time compared to S2 to work on everything more and make it look better graphically. I'm still really curious to see the new lighting on the old stages, especially Thunder's stage which was my fave with all the rain and wind.
 

The Flash

Banned
So I haven't really been keeping up with all the nerfs, buffs, changes, and what not lately. Anyone willing to help explain what's different in S3 for the OT? A lot of the really technical stuff like frame data and so on goes over my head so any help would be greatly appreciated.
 

Warxard

Banned
So I haven't really been keeping up with all the nerfs, buffs, changes, and what not lately. Anyone willing to help explain what's different in S3 for the OT? A lot of the really technical stuff like frame data and so on goes over my head so any help would be greatly appreciated.

certain attacks during air combos won't cause knockdown, but instead make your character stand back on their feet. (Flip out.)
 

vg260

Member
Don't know if anyone caught this in the S3 changes, but I thought adding the ability to do counter-breakers with LK+MP, and instinct with LK+HP was a great touch for stick users.

I kinda wanted to be able to assign those to the 4th buttons on a stick, but that's a good alternative.
 
When are we gonna get a standalone Kim Wu theme upload?

Since S3 has different guys(Celldweller and Atlas Plug) doing the soundtrack, nobody is really sure since Mick Gordon was the one who uploaded some of S1&2's music to his own channel on Youtube. Celldweller has a YT account though so if he puts it up, one of us will probably post it here. :)


Thanks! Always fun to read these.

Don't know if anyone caught this in the S3 changes, but I thought adding the ability to do counter-breakers with LK+MP, and instinct with LK+HP was a great touch for stick users.

I kinda wanted to be able to assign those to the 4th buttons on a stick, but that's a good alternative.
Yep, really thoughtful of IG since it makes it much more easier for the stick players!
 

Doukou

Member
I would say that overall the balance changes made the game more faster paced with juggles/flip outs/combo breakers but at the same time to balance out the faster paced they overall nerfed damage so that matchs will be more about multiple combos than single big ones.
 

DopeyFish

Not bitter, just unsweetened
I wonder if they'll scale him down

here's a reference i just made

arbiter%20size_zpsewzsicmy.jpg~original
 
here's a reference i just made

arbiter%20size_zpsewzsicmy.jpg~original
Yeah, I think maybe a bit taller than Glacius or same size I imagine. I don't think he'll be standing at full height though but that's depended on what stance IG gives him.

Speaking of that, how would y'all want Arby to play like? Thinking like Iron Galaxy for a moment since they're all about different characters play styles, I'd like him to be a stance character with Gun/Energy Sword stances. KI's all about character variety and Halo is known for players holding only 2 weapons so I thought it'll be neat. Plasma grenade could be like a standard projectile move between both stances but his normals/specials would be different and switched on the fly like Aria.
 

.la1n

Member
Poker Face - not sure if anyone answered your question earlier but the shirt your referring to was a limited shirt, I can't remember how you actually got one. Don't think it was ever for sale if I remember correctly.
 
Poker Face - not sure if anyone answered your question earlier but the shirt your referring to was a limited shirt, I can't remember how you actually got one. Don't think it was ever for sale if I remember correctly.

damn. I haven't really been a fan of any of the KI shirts released....besides that one lol.
 

The Flash

Banned
Yeah, I think maybe a bit taller than Glacius or same size I imagine. I don't think he'll be standing at full height though but that's depended on what stance IG gives him.

Speaking of that, how would y'all want Arby to play like? Thinking like Iron Galaxy for a moment since they're all about different characters play styles, I'd like him to be a stance character with Gun/Energy Sword stances. KI's all about character variety and Halo is known for players holding only 2 weapons so I thought it'll be neat. Plasma grenade could be like a standard projectile move between both stances but his normals/specials would be different and switched on the fly like Aria.

He'll use cloak somehow that much I believe is certain
 
Did the season 2 rebalance of season 1 characters release before season 2 came out? For some reason I have that idea and I really hope something similar happens before season 3 comes out.
Mid year/august.

The things that they took away were things that made Saber a crazily oppressive force, to the point where people did not enjoy playing him, or against him, because he felt too easy to dominate with.
The changes you mention still allow him to be such a force... but now there's more method to the madness.
Fair point

If anything, I think IG is listening to the problems you have with S2, and making adjustments that not only fall in line with your main desire (Modifying without destroying the characters and systems), but also putting more work into achieving this than most other developers do.
Fair point again but from reading the change log, it's still along the lines of what Capcom do nerfing characters more than understanding why they're good. I still think there is a huge difference between Iron Galaxy and Double Helix approach to balancing characters.
But at the same time, they also seem to put more into updating this game than almost any other company on a similar product. The fact they keep trying to make S1 and S2 character relevant, rather than just buff up and release the new hotness, is actually quite impressive. Glacius Multi-hail and new instinct trickery brings him closer to elements I loved about him in KI 1 and 2, and actually almost makes me look forward to trying him again, as I am in trying out Kim Wu. Giving everyone normal attacks that force flip-out, leading to a universally accessible mind-game too, that strengthens the application of juggle enders, is a great idea. Marrying Juggle and Hard Knockdown to the same ender also gives more depth to that ender type, and keeps you opponent on their toes, while also softening the blow of Sweeps becoming Combo Break-able. One of DH's largest tenants of KI gameplay was to always make playing the game a 2-way interaction, and much of S3's changes encourage and strengthen that, more-so than ever before.
Eh, I'm not really a fan of that change. Again, I like how basic Double Helix Killer Instinct was. I liked how Spinal played. I liked how I could manually charge Fulgores bar. I liked Jagos Wind Kick distance. I liked how ruthless Sabrewulf was. Only characters I prefer in Season 2 from Season 1 is Orchid and Thunder because of the tools they got. Season 2 felt like a mess to me and now they're adding more to it in Season 3. The changes and Kim-wu teaser don't look promising. But I'm giving it a try next month anyway.

I miss this too honestly.
So we aren't getting music teasers then?
 
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