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[MightyHedgehog]

Just think if all that money poured into Kinect, Kinect development, and Kinect marketing actually went into some new hardcore IP's instead.

It's kind of depressing to think about, actually.

What's so depressing about ensuring the success and financial viability of a sub-platform of development that already has hundreds of millions poured into it just so far? And you're acting rather unrealistically, IMO. As if this is all resource used coming at a very significant and direct loss to anything else. MS has been lean on internal core games for a while anyway...but core gaming development is being invested into for X360...it's still MS' largest software driver of their games business and they'd be foolish to let it slip. MS has just transitioned to more reliance upon third party publishers and outside developers that they publish to pick up the slack.

MS wants more than the limited and already held audience for core gaming...so they've tried for years, with Rare, and others to go after non-core folks. And that's the main point behind Kinect as non-core software alone just hasn't worked so far...it's why Rare has gone to support it instead of continuing to focus on the non-Kinect stuff that has failed to really make a big splash even if it probably did decently enough to cover its own butts.

For core stuff, there's one big new one for MS announced there at the show and that was Crytek's new Kingdoms title and that should be no small project. There's always more than what's been announced on all sides in the works, so I'm really not sure why people act as if there are no new core games coming even when the bulk from all sides (Ninty and Sony, too) are franchise and sequel titles. I mean, there was almost no new core IP revealed this year...of course, that doesn't mean you can't have new gameplay without new IP, but it's still a sign of how safe everyone's playing it.

I'd be more concerned about the too-quiet scene for Move at this point where only really gamers know about it...it might be too gamer-centric to go beyond that zone once Kinect is rolling hard for the rest and if it doesn't gain traction, it may end up being nothing more than mostly a common optional control scheme and much less of a star input for big games thanks to a lack of market success and failure to get publishers on board to spend more for dedicated releases. And this is why MS is pushing so hard...to establish a foundation for Kinect...to give it a real chance of success by focusing on the larger picture and not just about preaching to their own choir.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

Again, you are missing my whole point.

No, I understand your point, and I already explained why I think you are completely wrong. As I don't like going in circles, let's just leave it at that and take a wait and see approach.

 

[gofreak]

:lol Sounds almost like you're saying that this is new to video games or something.

I know it might read like that, but I don't really intend it to Of course, building a narrative is exactly what PR and marketing typically is. I'm just...impressed...by the consistency with which they've been putting out these points given how little they materially have to fuel it (certainly when much of it was written during or pre-e3). I suppose it's a reflection of just how critical it is for MS that these statements actually come true, of how much wrt Xbox is riding on the big success of this.

There is no question 360 is seeing much more play, but to argue Wii is hardly getting any is nonsense as well.

Of course it's an exaggeration. Exaggeration? On GAF? Never! But the more realistic general sentiment that Wii is relatively underused by its owners is well supported by that data. Anyway, it would be interesting to see what MS (and Sony for that matter), what their strategy people are telling them about how this kind of Wii penetration and these kinds of characteristics reflect on the chances of success for their new products. I suppose they're taking the optimistic 'this shows they're not satisfied with Wii! they want more! our machines!' kind of stance. But I can't help but think that might be a rather hopeful stretch. We shall see.

 

[FrankT]

Of course it's an exaggeration. Exaggeration? On GAF? Never! But the more realistic general sentiment that Wii is relatively underused by its owners is well supported by that data. Anyway, it would be interesting to see what MS (and Sony for that matter), what their strategy people are telling them about how this kind of Wii penetration and these kinds of characteristics reflect on the chances of success for their new products. I suppose they're taking the optimistic 'this shows they're not satisfied with Wii! they want more! our machines!' kind of stance. But I can't help but think that might be a rather hopeful stretch. We shall see.

Exaggeration eh I was thinking more in line with totally tipping the BS detector scale. :lol

Of course this isn’t the first time I’ve seen this argument here and it certainly will not be the last.

 

[cakefoo]

I'd be more concerned about the too-quiet scene for Move at this point where only really gamers know about it...

Two words: Coca Cola

it might be too gamer-centric to go beyond that zone once Kinect is rolling hard for the rest and if it doesn't gain traction, it may end up being nothing more than mostly a common optional control scheme and much less of a star input for big games thanks to a lack of market success and failure to get publishers on board to spend more for dedicated releases. And this is why MS is pushing so hard...to establish a foundation for Kinect...to give it a real chance of success by focusing on the larger picture and not just about preaching to their own choir.

Sony aren't really preaching to the choir--- the core/existing owners are the ones who a) need the MOST convincing that motion controls are legit and b) are the ones to whom the Move will cost the least. The casual focus will come with the Coke campaign. Until then we're just speculating.

 

[Redbeard]

Exaggeration eh I was thinking more in line with totally tipping the BS detector scale. :lol

Of course this isn’t the first time I’ve seen this argument here and it certainly will not be the last.

Did you even read his argument?

The Wii gets more TOTAL use because they've sold a gajillion units in comparison to the 360 and PS3.

It's similar to why only up until recently the PS2 was still number 1.

On a usage/unit basis, I'm sure the PS3 has more average play than the Wii.

 

[FrankT]

Did you even read his argument?

The Wii gets more TOTAL use because they've sold a gajillion units in comparison to the 360 and PS3.

It's similar to why only up until recently the PS2 was still number 1.

On a usage/unit basis, I'm sure the PS3 has more average play than the Wii.

Oh I read exactly what he said and of course that doesn't add anything to the point that somehow the Wii hardly gets any play. I also understand pretty clearly 360 is getting lots more play time per console.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

I'm just...impressed...by the consistency with which they've been putting out these points given how little they materially have to fuel it (certainly when much of it was written during or pre-e3). I suppose it's a reflection of just how critical it is for MS that these statements actually come true, of how much wrt Xbox is riding on the big success of this.

Reality is the dry, bland block of ramen noodles and marketing is the essential MSG-laced flavor packet. MS absolutely needs to embed this sucker into the public consciousness by the holiday season. I figure we're only a short time away from college campus demo tours and other such stuff before it finally lands at Wal-Marts and other chains for demo closer to launch. So, direct public exposure on a broader scale is imminent even if it has already started with MS' own stores in this last week. I want Kinect installed into touchless interfaces beyond gaming already. IGN has a nice presentation that that goes just a bit further than the press conference demo for the interface and shows off how nice and smooth the hands tracking for both hands can be when filtered even if there's a slight bit of lag.

Two words: Coca Cola

That's a good one, but they need to have showings during programming that lots or people watch...opportunities to demo why people should care and why it's worth looking forward to and purchase...why this isn't what it seems at first blush, which is a Wii controller. Interested to see how they push it besides just being on Coke labels and such with a typical giveaway.

Sony aren't really preaching to the choir--- the core/existing owners are the ones who a) need the MOST convincing that motion controls are legit and b) are the ones to whom the Move will cost the least. The casual focus will come with the Coke campaign. Until then we're just speculating.

Well, I guess I'm not seeing it. Core gamers shouldn't be the ones to have a ton of focus on if Sony's main focus is to draw new players into the fold. They need to be addressed, and that's where Sony has done a better job than MS so far, but they are already on your side for owning your platform, buying your games. And the hardcore among them will probably pick up a Move without much more engagement since so many already popular titles are seeing Wii-like functionality added (like Tiger Woods), if not whole Wii ports brought over, like Dead Space: Extraction. I am speculating, of course. (Thanks for reminding me since I thought I was speaking from future experience. Come on, dude. I know we're speculating. That's what this board does.)

 

[mujun]

It'd be also interesting to see what percentage answered yes and never cared about the Wii and don't care about the Playstation Move controller. Yet here they are on the Kinect hype train ready to get their taste of Kinectimals and Dance Central at launch. Usual suspects, of course, but it's funny nonetheless.

That info is tangental at best in relation to question posed in the thread. Keep trying though!

 

[SimpleDesign]

You're an idiot, I can easily prove I have it. You don't want to escalate this because you'll look like a fool.

My mistake, I shouldn't have jumped to the conclusion that you weren't a hypocrite.

 

[Jewbacca]

All it takes is one "holy shit this is cool" moment and the thing will sell, and I will guaruntee you that Microsoft will shove this down the throats of mainstream media.

When I played Sonic Adventures for the Dreamcast and the killer whale was breaking down the ramp trying to fucking eat you while Sonic ran toward the screen, that was my holyshit moment, and I picked it up, I didnt know about anyother games and didnt care.
PS2 was Parasite Eve
Game Boy Advance it was Tony Hawk Proskater (with polygons oooOoo).

Everyone on this forum has had something that has made them go holy fuck I have to have this, and this goes for any product. So to write this off as a bust is nonsense. Microsoft will cut the price to 50 bucks and include it in systems before they let this fail.

 

[lowlylowlycook]

All it takes is one "holy shit this is cool" moment and the thing will sell, and I will guaruntee you that Microsoft will shove this down the throats of mainstream media.

When I played Sonic Adventures for the Dreamcast and the killer whale was breaking down the ramp trying to fucking eat you while Sonic ran toward the screen, that was my holyshit moment, and I picked it up, I didnt know about anyother games and didnt care.

I don't think that this proves what you think it does.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Just think if all that money poured into Kinect, Kinect development, and Kinect marketing actually went into some new hardcore IP's instead.

It's kind of depressing to think about, actually.

:lol

Try reading comics sometime. I think more people live in my neighborhood than have read the biggest selling comic last month.

There's a reason they're called "hardcore" games. And there's a reason that "mainstream" is the opposite of "hardcore". There are more of them than there are of us. It's a sad fact of the world. Games have become increasingly more complicated (at the same time, of course, becoming way more awesome). Nintendo, via the Wii, the DS, etc, proved that it's just more lucrative to go for everyone else.

 

[Jewbacca]

I don't think that this proves what you think it does.

Well I was making two points.

Microsoft won't let this fail.
and it will only take one "wow" game or feature to push this into impulse buy mode for current 360 owners. You have to remember that neogaf does not reflect your average joe.

 

[Leon]

I keep coming back in here to read more impressions, I keep getting disappointed. Stop the bickering people and spend that valuable time driving to the stores instead!

 

[Noogy]

I keep coming back in here to read more impressions, I keep getting disappointed. Stop the bickering people and spend that valuable time driving to the stores instead!

Same here. Going to try it out myself tomorrow.

 

[ralexand]

Has Move hit sony stores yet?

 

[GavinGT]

Anyone have problems with black clothing? I'm going to bring an extra black shirt when I go tomorrow to see if it creates any difficulties.

 

[freddy]

I'm surprised there's not more impressions actually from these in store demos and I'm not just talking about this forum. I can't seem to find many anywhere.

 

[Saint Gregory]

Anyone have problems with black clothing? I'm going to bring an extra black shirt when I go tomorrow to see if it creates any difficulties.

I doubt that's going to cause any problems for the device at all. The issue Kinect had with seeing darker skinned people had less to do with their color and a lot more to do with melanin levels in our skin which absorbs radiation. The darker you are the more you have so I'm still wondering how they were able to fix that in between the two E3s.

 

[ralexand]

I doubt that's going to cause any problems for the device at all. The issue Kinect had with seeing darker skinned people had less to do with their color and a lot more to do with melanin levels in our skin which absorbs radiation. The darker you are the more you have so I'm still wondering how they were able to fix that in between the two E3s.

Where did you hear that melanin stuff?

More store videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x39rXp7Hx8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaRCd_Nn9lM

 

[Synth_floyd]

That second video with the guy dancing looks pretty fun.

So far I'm really not that interested in the kinect but I really hope it succeeds because there is so much potential with this technology. It's a shame that most of the stuff that seems to be coming out for it so far doesn't look that great.

 

[ralexand]

That second video with the guy dancing looks pretty fun.

So far I'm really not that interested in the kinect but I really hope it succeeds because there is so much potential with this technology. It's a shame that most of the stuff that seems to be coming out for it so far doesn't look that great.

I see it even being used in core games in the future in small elements like walking around and exploring your garage like in this Forza demo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXVpjbWjEvk

Sure all of these things can be done with a standard controller but a controller can't give you that type of immersion. I'm still waiting for my Pilotwings Kinect but I might have to settle for that River Rafting game.

 

[AndyD]

That second video with the guy dancing looks pretty fun.

So far I'm really not that interested in the kinect but I really hope it succeeds because there is so much potential with this technology. It's a shame that most of the stuff that seems to be coming out for it so far doesn't look that great.

Looks nice and fun.

I think people love watching the pre-rendered dancers move around and they attempt to mimic, but I have yet to see anyone actually do well on the game/score other than the professional dancers in that one video.

I think people are sort of sucked in by the formation of three dancers and they think their movement is one of those three, when that's actually a pre-rendered animation it seems.

Looks a lot like DDR where a few people end up doing amazing and the majority just sort of awkwardly flop around.

Not bad though.

 

[JaggedSac]

More impressions and less of the same old arguments plz. K Thx.

 

[John Rabbit]

Anyone have problems with black clothing? I'm going to bring an extra black shirt when I go tomorrow to see if it creates any difficulties.

no, the first day i went i had on a black shirt and it worked fine.

additional impressions:

i went back yesterday with "the girlfriend" because she was interested to try it. needless to say she's sold on it. i didn't get to play anything new, just another round of kinect adventures, but i did observe some new things that my first trip did not yield:

dance central - the rep told me they aren't demoing this anymore because they receive a cease and desist from the RIAA; apparently they don't have the licensing down to be playing the music contained in the demo in a public space. wtf.

kinect sports: hurdles - watched a couple play this for one race. speed really seemed to be determined by how high your knees were brought up (the guy was doing better than the girl who seemed reticent to be jogging/high-stepping in place in front of a crowd). the hurdles light up as you approach them and turn green when its the optimal time to jump; there was significant lag between when the player jumped and when the avatar actually completed the jump. i don't know if theres some kind of assist involved here, but the guy who was successfully completing the jumps was jumping when his avatar was easily several feet in front of the hurdle.

kinect sports: bowling - there is definitely some kind of assist going on in this game. that or almost every person who played this demo across the two days i saw it were professional bowlers. so many strikes. i haven't bowled in years and was only decent at wii bowling and i threw 4 strikes in a row and 2 spares. also, you cannot step (too far) forward in this like you'd do with wii bowling. you will exit the ideal area for kinect to see you and your throw will reset/mess up.

more general impressions/observations:
-they weren't demoing anything other than adventures and sports. nobody would really give me a reason why (other than dance central) but i suspect these two titles are the easiest for people to play and/or are the least problematic. kind of a bummer.
-the device seemed to be having a lot more problems than the day before, games froze more than once, tracking seemed off for some people, and they had to hard reset the system multiple times. again, its a dev kit with unfinished software, but its just something i noticed.
-the device can recognize when you're too far away/close/left right. an on-screen prompt will show telling you "move back/left/right/forward" if you're not in the ideal spot. there is definitely a "sweet spot" for you to be standing in for it to work correctly. if i had to guess it seemed to be a space about 6 feet wide and 3 feet deep; not tiny, but a lot of people were stepping outside this boundary causing the tracking to go apeshit (their avatar would start contorting weirdly) and the prompt to show eventually.
-this shit is going to be huge with kids, seeing their reactions to it was very entertaining.

in general they seemed to be pushing the pre-orders and their raffle and lot harder and weren't really giving people as much time to play as they were than on friday. i don't know if that comes down to who was running the demo or if somebody up higher gave the word that they really need to push sales on the thing.

 

[Man]

Has Move hit sony stores yet?

They've been doing a tour. East coast in March. They had PS Move's in every LA Best Buy during E3. I don't think they have them anywhere permanently.

 

[TheOddOne]

dance central - the rep told me they aren't demoing this anymore because they receive a cease and desist from the RIAA; apparently they don't have the licensing down to be playing the music contained in the demo in a public space. wtf.

Wat.

 

[infinityBCRT]

dance central - the rep told me they aren't demoing this anymore because they receive a cease and desist from the RIAA; apparently they don't have the licensing down to be playing the music contained in the demo in a public space. wtf.

the man gets a taste of his own medicine I guess... but yeah, retarded

 

[kaskade]

no, the first day i went i had on a black shirt and it worked fine.

additional impressions:

dance central - the rep told me they aren't demoing this anymore because they receive a cease and desist from the RIAA; apparently they don't have the licensing down to be playing the music contained in the demo in a public space. wtf.

That's the biggest load of shit ever. So they can send me a letter if I play my music on the beach or something? :lol

Anyway, I wish I had a store by me. I do want to try it out, and Dance Central was the one I wanted to try the most.

 

[Zoe]

dance central - the rep told me they aren't demoing this anymore because they receive a cease and desist from the RIAA; apparently they don't have the licensing down to be playing the music contained in the demo in a public space. wtf.

That's pretty typical actually. It'd be okay in stores like Best Buy because they would already have the license for other sections of the store, but that isn't necessarily the case for an MS store.

 

[expy]

dance central - the rep told me they aren't demoing this anymore because they receive a cease and desist from the RIAA; apparently they don't have the licensing down to be playing the music contained in the demo in a public space. wtf.

lol MS fail. At least they didn't get sued over it.

more general impressions/observations:
-they weren't demoing anything other than adventures and sports. nobody would really give me a reason why (other than dance central) but i suspect these two titles are the easiest for people to play and/or are the least problematic. kind of a bummer.

Natal will require some heavy "assistance" from the game in order to make the games "fun", if the game tried to track movements (as close to 1:1) as possible, nobody would be able to get anything done in these games... For example, the hurdles... You'd have to track exactly how fast his feet are touching the ground, calculate his relative speed, his jump height, and if he's "turning" to compensate for the curvature of the track. It looks and seems fun because it's programmed to give you that impression, even though you aren't really playing it "properly".

-the device seemed to be having a lot more problems than the day before, games froze more than once, tracking seemed off for some people, and they had to hard reset the system multiple times. again, its a dev kit with unfinished software, but its just something i noticed.

Most likely the hardware, wouldn't be the first time.

-the device can recognize when you're too far away/close/left right. an on-screen prompt will show telling you "move back/left/right/forward" if you're not in the ideal spot. there is definitely a "sweet spot" for you to be standing in for it to work correctly. if i had to guess it seemed to be a space about 6 feet wide and 3 feet deep; not tiny, but a lot of people were stepping outside this boundary causing the tracking to go apeshit (their avatar would start contorting weirdly) and the prompt to show eventually.

That's good, the audience it's tgargetting won't know much about "proper positioning in the camera's field of view" so nice to see them correct the players when they screw up.

-this shit is going to be huge with kids, seeing their reactions to it was very entertaining.

i don't know if that comes down to who was running the demo or if somebody up higher gave the word that they really need to push sales on the thing.

If they don't push it, it WILL bomb.

 

[Mikhal]

dance central - the rep told me they aren't demoing this anymore because they receive a cease and desist from the RIAA; apparently they don't have the licensing down to be playing the music contained in the demo in a public space. wtf.

Quick Microsoft! Call Konami and use Dance Masters in its place! Just disable the Avex tracks and use the Konami original tracks.

 

[Azure Phoenix]

That's the biggest load of shit ever. So they can send me a letter if I play my music on the beach or something? :lol

They have actually been pulling that crap for years in the UK. One mechanic who owned a garage was even told he had to pay for a license to listen to a radio while he worked because his garage was classified as a public place (any place where a member of the public can enter is fair game).

God knows how it would work in this situation though, surely that would mean all those dancing game and Guitar Hero Arcade cabinets in arcades would be classified as broadcasting music in public without a license.

 

[NemesisPrime]

They have actually been pulling that crap for years in the UK. One mechanic who owned a garage was even told he had to pay for a license to listen to a radio while he worked because his garage was classified as a public place (any place where a member of the public can enter is fair game).

God knows how it would work in this situation though, surely that would mean all those dancing game and Guitar Hero Arcade cabinets in arcades would be classified as broadcasting music in public without a license.

Yeah here in Belgium they (the music industry) have even asked people to pay a tax when they are putting on music in their car when it is a company car taking multiple people to work (like a van of workmen). This world is out of control when it comes to greed.

 

[chicken_ramen]

That's the biggest load of shit ever. So they can send me a letter if I play my music on the beach or something? :lol

I'm not sure if you're joking, but yes, unless you have broadcast rights, of course they can. It's not 'your music' and as more and more of what we purchase is non-physical (as a gamer this has long been the case) you should probably acclimatise yourself to this. There's nothing physical to own. When you buy a non-physical good you're buying a specific licence to use the work in a specific way, usually for personal use only. You do not own the content, but a licence to use the content. On the consumer side this will exclude the creation of copies or broadcasting the work. If, on the beach, you're playing so that only you and a small group of friends can enjoy it, this is perfectly fine. If, however, you're having a massive beach party and using your own CDs without the proper usage rights, this could be a problem.

As with all issues like this though, it's only a legal issue if the rights holder objects. If it's a personal party, they likely won't care or even notice. A large event is much more likely to draw their attention. A MS storefront is wise enough to want to cover their legal bases. edit: It is strange that they forgot to do this, I can't imagine these demos were rushed out. Maybe it was just complacency. :S Odd.

They have actually been pulling that crap for years in the UK. One mechanic who owned a garage was even told he had to pay for a license to listen to a radio while he worked because his garage was classified as a public place (any place where a member of the public can enter is fair game).

God knows how it would work in this situation though, surely that would mean all those dancing game and Guitar Hero Arcade cabinets in arcades would be classified as broadcasting music in public without a license.

I believe in Australia radio is fine for public places, although I've never checked into it, this is just from the fact that many cheaper businesses use radio instead of buying special store music.

I assume arcades games must be sold with the required usage rights. It's not a field I'm familiar with but not to do so would be silly. This isn't an arcade game but a game intended for home use, a completely different situation.

 

[Leon]

I'm actually surprised MS didn't clear the rights before setting up those demos. Public performance rights are not some shady tactic that just popped out of "greed", they have been traditionally respected by the media industry for decades, and MS should've known better. Very strange.

Rabbitwork, you mentioned your girlfriend was sold on it. Did she pre-order it?

 

[jedimike]

I'm actually surprised MS didn't clear the rights before setting up those demos. Public performance rights are not some shady tactic that just popped out of "greed", they have been traditionally respected by the media industry for decades, and MS should've known better. Very strange.

Rabbitwork, you mentioned your girlfriend was sold on it. Did she pre-order it?

It's probably more complicated than we assume. Harmonix was able to publicly demo the game (E3), so it's more likely that MS can't show it because the game is not yet for sale. Harmonix is actually the ones who work out the deals with the RIAA. At this point, MS is and end user and has a product that they didn't purchase.

 

[John Rabbit]

Rabbitwork, you mentioned your girlfriend was sold on it. Did she pre-order it?

no, she's waiting to see if it comes with a game first. they were offering some kind of discount or something and invitation to a "VIP Launch Event" but $150 is too high without more information.

 

[GavinGT]

I doubt that's going to cause any problems for the device at all. The issue Kinect had with seeing darker skinned people had less to do with their color and a lot more to do with melanin levels in our skin which absorbs radiation. The darker you are the more you have so I'm still wondering how they were able to fix that in between the two E3s.

But at E3 some reps said Kinect was having trouble picking up black clothing.

 

[TheOddOne]

It's probably more complicated than we assume. Harmonix was able to publicly demo the game (E3), so it's more likely that MS can't show it because the game is not yet for sale. Harmonix is actually the ones who work out the deals with the RIAA. At this point, MS is and end user and has a product that they didn't purchase.

This is what I was thinking also. If Microsoft was the publisher it would have been their problem.

 

[AndyD]

It's probably more complicated than we assume. Harmonix was able to publicly demo the game (E3), so it's more likely that MS can't show it because the game is not yet for sale. Harmonix is actually the ones who work out the deals with the RIAA. At this point, MS is and end user and has a product that they didn't purchase.

Right. Harmonix can probably use it as a demo, but not MS. Just like any one of us would not be able to either.

 

[Chairhome]

Wait, are they still demoing this? I just went too the fashion valley store and I didn't see it... :/

 

[Chairhome]

They said they aren't demoing the units at all anymore :-(

 

[-COOLIO-]

They said they aren't demoing the units at all anymore :-(

i wonder why

 

[StopMakingSense]

dance central - the rep told me they aren't demoing this anymore because they receive a cease and desist from the RIAA; apparently they don't have the licensing down to be playing the music contained in the demo in a public space. wtf.

The rep is confusing RIAA for ASCAP, most likely. And those fuckers are hilariously litigeous. They once shook down a mechanic for licensing fees for playing his shop radio too loud while working. It's about the performance fees for music being played in a commercial setting.

I can kinda see this being overlooked, kinda.

 

[Nightz]

They said they aren't demoing the units at all anymore :-(

Gah! I was planning to go to Fashion Valley tomorrow.

 

[skyfinch]

i wonder why

GAF.

 

[mckmas8808]

They said they aren't demoing the units at all anymore :-(

That's kinda weird.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Dang. Anyone want a ticket from LGA to Flagstaff? Looks like I won't be needing it anymore.