Again had some better matches last night. Spent time messing around with all the new characters. Kukri is just awesome all around and I think he's gonna be on my main team. He has a quick ground projectile, an effective overhead kick (that can also be done in the air) AND can teleport among other things. Just too good.
In fact...that's one thing that really stands out to me in this game. All the new characters are pretty awesome. I've run into people using only new characters on their teams and I can't remember the last time I saw that happen in a fighting game.
Even the goofy characters are awesome. Xanadu is hilarious. His command grab has him run forward, pick up the opponent and cradle them like a baby, then slam them down. LMAO. I think people online were pretty surprised the first time they saw the move, lol.
Kukri really interests me as well, such a great design and what they did with his sand fighting style looks so fun. Also looking forward to flying all over the place with Mian.
So glad that SNK went nuts with the new characters with this game after not making any for so long. Still the best in the business at it.
With five bars, she could repeat this loop three times, before ending with a max mode super. The damage probably won't be worth five bars, but at three bars, this loop does a little over 65%!
With five bars, she could repeat this loop three times, before ending with a max mode super. The damage probably won't be worth five bars, but at three bars, this loop does a little over 65%!
The issues is that MOST of the Climax supers have these inputs. Granted for regular/pro players it's not an issue, but this is an odd design choice especially if they want to get newcomers and casuals into the game.
Some might see it as a minor issue, but as someone who games with friends and relatives in fighting games, it's a bit of an unfortunate design choice.
The issues is that MOST of the Climax supers have these inputs. Granted for regular/pro players it's not an issue, but this is an odd design choice especially if they want to get newcomers and casuals into the game.
Some might see it as a minor issue, but as someone who games with friends and relatives in fighting games, it's a bit of an unfortunate design choice.
With five bars, she could repeat this loop three times, before ending with a max mode super. The damage probably won't be worth five bars, but at three bars, this loop does a little over 65%!
She can't loop more. If you do the cr. D into HCF BD sleeve a second time they fall out. What you see if pretty much max damage for 3 meters. Damage looks high until you realize that other characters can get that damage for less meter. I saw Kim, Gang-IL, Terry, and Ramon combos a couple of pages ago in this thread that get that 650 for 2 meters.
She actually gains very little with raw activation unfortunately. Her ex grab does a little more damage and can juggle but only into climax. Her dp motion grab gains nothing except slight tracking. Her QCF BD sleeve is pretty slow so you can't anti air and then juggle with it like you used to. You have to do it raw or do it off a sweep. The EX shoulder is still pretty quick and does good damage with little scaling but I am not sure if it's good enough to raw activate, I used other means of anti airing just fine and this move is way too unsafe to just throw out.
She can't loop more. If you do the cr. D into HCF BD sleeve a second time they fall out. What you see if pretty much max damage for 3 meters. Damage looks high until you realize that other characters can get that damage for less meter. I saw Kim, Gang-IL, Terry, and Ramon combos a couple of pages ago in this thread that get that 650 for 2 meters.
Hmm. I see. Well, it's still good damage. If I had five bars as Vice, I'd rather spend three bars and do that much damage then do a climax cancel and lose 4-5 bars.
That's one of things that makes KOF unique, is that while some characters can get bigger damage for less resources, the ones who can't can make up for it in other ways. Like, Vice can also combo from CD wallsplats; I think she can do a quick combo into MAX activate~CD, and then super jump into air.CD during the crumple stun, followed by an EX sleeve, and then extend the combo.
Stuff like that I think is really cool about KOF; some characters have a lot more diversity than it seems.
She actually gains very little with raw activation unfortunately. Her ex grab does a little more damage and can juggle but only into climax. Her dp motion grab gains nothing except slight tracking. Her QCF BD sleeve is pretty slow so you can't anti air and then juggle with it like you used to. You have to do it raw or do it off a sweep. The EX shoulder is still pretty quick and does good damage with little scaling but I am not sure if it's good enough to raw activate, I used other means of anti airing just fine and this move is way too unsafe to just throw out.
What would make her scary with raw activation is having access to a whole bunch of EX sleeves (anywhere juggle) and EX shoulders (fully invincible). Her EX lunge grab also has some invincibility on start up, has tracking and is super fast.
After playing the game, I think it's pretty clear that they don't want the CDM's to be too easy to overlap with other motions. Character's base motions clearly make a lot of use of QCF and QCB motionsm loads of new characters have Rekka-like motions, and most of the stuff in this game is on the crazy-easy side for SNK games in general.
So las night i was at Burger King (Yes, that's a story for another day) waiting for my burger when i saw a random dude holding an EARLY COPY OF KOFXIV!!!!
We chatted up a bit, he told me where he bought it so im gonna check it out today after work.
It's nice to see she keeps some of this, without it being too insane. I'm glad they fall out after a certain point, since the game is trying to limit this stuff to a degree. And how'd she get at the tail end of a Meitenkun vid? Heh heh. He makes me think that I'll get use out of the charge skills I cultivated for XIII's Leona corner Loops...
Did anyone else notice King had a Guardpoint on her Far B in the beginning montage? Like... no one else has noticed that at all? That seems pretty nice to me.
After playing the game, I think it's pretty clear that they don't want the CDM's to be too easy to overlap with other motions. Character's base motions clearly make a lot of use of QCF and QCB motionsm loads of new characters have Rekka-like motions, and most of the stuff in this game is on the crazy-easy side for SNK games in general.
Far as I know there is no Special Move canceling into other special moves in XIV.
As such the overlapping you talk about wouldn't be an issue at all.
QCFx2 or QCBx2 motions would not affect MAX mode combos in the slightest. Or heck even QCF, HCB or QCB, HCF motions would've been fine as well, we've gotten accustomed to them by now. HCBx2 and HCFx2 just feel awkward even by SNK standards when most of the cast have them for super inputs.
Did anyone else notice King had a Guardpoint on her Far B in the beginning montage? Like... no one else has noticed that at all? That seems pretty nice to me.
Did anyone else notice King had a Guardpoint on her Far B in the beginning montage? Like... no one else has noticed that at all? That seems pretty nice to me.
Thanks, love Alice. It's great how they are beating up on their guys lol, dat declaration of war.
I guess we should wait for the second trailer to hit before making a thread?
I'm guessing you didn't play her in XIII?
What would make her scary with raw activation is having access to a whole bunch of EX sleeves (anywhere juggle) and EX shoulders (fully invincible). Her EX lunge grab also has some invincibility on start up, has tracking and is super fast.
I did play her. I maybe worded it badly but I was trying to say that the new EX sleeve in 14 is too slow to anywhere juggle and has less range. You just can't easily jump CD or anti air jab into it like you could before. This is a major loss for her. I'll experiment with her more but she seems like hard work for a scrub like me.
I did play her. I maybe worded it badly but I was trying to say that the new EX sleeve in 14 is too slow to anywhere juggle and has less range. You just can't easily jump CD or anti air jab into it like you could before. This is a major loss for her. I'll experiment with her more but she seems like hard work for a scrub like me.
But there's special canceling into DM and CDM canceling. Motions that are way too close to normal specials can easily be mistakenly attempted, especially by new people who mash double punches and kicks all the time, or people who don't understand how EX's, DMs, SDM's, and CDM's all work.
QCFx2 or QCBx2 motions would not affect MAX mode combos in the slightest. Or heck even QCF, HCB or QCB, HCF motions would've been fine as well, we've gotten accustomed to them by now. HCBx2 and HCFx2 just feel awkward even by SNK standards when most of the cast have them for super inputs.
Look at the full movelist of MuiMui or Nelson. The majority of their motions are incredibly simple stuff, and the QCFx2+P motions have already been taken. They also generally avoid special moves that overlap part of those motions (Such as MuiMui not having a double QCB+P super, since it'd easily mess up with her QCB Rekkas) and her double QCF motions make it easy to buffer her DMs from specials you'd use to cancel into her DMs too.
Then you have stuff like Sylvie's CDM, which is HCBx+PP, for a screen freezing, nearly instant spawn projectile that works as a fulljump anti-air and a quick reversal to open moves, that can be combo'd out of. A LITTLE bit of difficulty helps make that move much more fair. It she was able to mash it instantly out of almost everything with easy Quarter Circles, it might be a bit too strong for all it gives in exchange.
Kyo and Iori have some of the simpliest climaxs in the game, but their base special move designs are a lot more crowded and full of classic SNK motions. The new characters have much simplier base specials, so their DMs are slightly harder motions, since they spent all the easy stuff on normal / special / super move design.
Yeah, should negate fireball, which is a good point.
I don't think her st.B is useless at all, even if it's not as long and obvious as a Kyo or Terry Far stand B. It still looks like it'd be a nice counter-poke on ducking opponents who are playing at footsie range, and it should hit an angle her far D and C don't.
I did play her. I maybe worded it badly but I was trying to say that the new EX sleeve in 14 is too slow to anywhere juggle and has less range. You just can't easily jump CD or anti air jab into it like you could before. This is a major loss for her. I'll experiment with her more but she seems like hard work for a scrub like me.
I've notice that "Kara-canceling" CD's is pretty crazy in this iteration. Kyo can get alomost 50% screen DPs and up-kicks out of stuff like this. I wouldn't be surprised if Vice can get additional use out of EX Should or Sleeves from this fact, as well.
Glad to hear she can get CDM out of EX Gorefest also. The fact that move never lead to any additional damage always bugged me. This is limited, but much better than nothing.
I'd surely love for Vice to get even more tricks in this game, but I definitely want to wait to play her against live opponents before I get too bent out of shape on what I think of her.
In a way, with characters like Nelson, Sylvie, and even Angel added to the game, I think there's more characters who have a similar lot in life as she has had since XIII; they depend on a lot of close-up, no-nonsense tools to get the job started and completed.
I feel like defensive walls like K.O.D REALLY mess with these kind of characters, too (moreso than normal in a KoF), so the validity of using a wider section of the cast feels nice to me, at this early juncture.
But there's special canceling into DM and CDM canceling. Motions that are way too close to normal specials can easily be mistakenly attempted, especially by new people who mash double punches and kicks all the time, or people who don't understand how EX's, DMs, SDM's, and CDM's all work.
That's been the case forever with super canceling; you'd have characters with QCF motions and QCFx2 motions like Ryo for example.
Look at the full movelist of MuiMui or Nelson. The majority of their motions are incredibly simple stuff, and the QCFx2+P motions have already been taken. They also generally avoid special moves that overlap part of those motions (Such as MuiMui not having a double QCB+P super, since it'd easily mess up with her QCB Rekkas) and her double QCF motions make it easy to buffer her DMs from specials you'd use to cancel into her DMs too.
Then you have stuff like Sylvie's CDM, which is HCBx+PP, for a screen freezing, nearly instant spawn projectile that works as a fulljump anti-air and a quick reversal to open moves, that can be combo'd out of. A LITTLE bit of difficulty helps make that move much more fair. It she was able to mash it instantly out of almost everything with easy Quarter Circles, it might be a bit too strong for all it gives in exchange.
I'm curious how common it would be to have that Climax super used OUTSIDE of combos.
This LITTLE bit that you talk about becomes a moot point to us because we've gotten used to HCBx2 and HCFx2 motions by now.
If the game's Climaxs didn't have most characters with such motions, I may've been fine with the input for it.
Kyo and Iori have some of the simpliest climaxs in the game, but their base special move designs are a lot more crowded and full of classic SNK motions. The new characters have much simplier base specials, so their DMs are slightly harder motions, since they spent all the easy stuff on normal / special / super move design.
Malin's moveset in XI and 03 was simpler and her 3 supers were QCFx2 motions
Betty in XI (at least) has a simple moveset and her supers are QCF, HCB and reverse motions with her Climax/Neomax being QCFx2. That's one way they could've done the supers.
I'd surely love for Vice to get even more tricks in this game, but I definitely want to wait to play her against live opponents before I get too bent out of shape on what I think of her.
In a way, with characters like Nelson, Sylvie, and even Angel added to the game, I think there's more characters who have a similar lot in life as she has had since XIII; they depend on a lot of close-up, no-nonsense tools to get the job started and completed.
I feel like defensive walls like K.O.D REALLY mess with these kind of characters, too (moreso than normal in a KoF), so the validity of using a wider section of the cast feels nice to me, at this early juncture.
Agreed, I'm also looking forward to seeing what neat changes she and others have which aren't immediately obvious ala King's guard point LK, Ryo being about to combo after fireball supers etc.
There's a lot of variation to the cast so it will be interesting to see where everyone ends up in terms of strength, weaknesses and effectiveness.
Ahh, good ole Kara command throws. Definitely need more grapple-happy characters in the demo to even think about this personally. Mui's is a great note. I feel like the Kara window on CDs has purposely been made very wide, to help more characters combo off wallsplat CDs. Not to mention many moves work like command dashes when canceled out of a successful CD (Such as Kensou's qcf+lp, Shun'Ei's qcb+p, Kyo and Iori's running attack grabs, Andy's Zanei'ken, etc).
And often time's it's been a bad design. But the new characters gave them a chance to re-evaluate how they thought movesets should play along with each other, with a combo of old designers and people like Neo-G.
And while I definitely respect the man and all he's done, I do wonder if many of these decisions in gameplay that people are surprised about, are from his influence mixing with SNK designers. It was mentioned in interview that he especially had a lot of input on the new characters.
You make it sound so simple, yet the actual moveset designers didn't seem to think it a good idea. Guess we'll have to see how it works out as time goes on.
I'm curious how common it would be to have that Climax super used OUTSIDE of combos.
Depends on Invuln and such. But outside heavy combos, a lot of them would also be accessible off Far normals (which are not normally cancellable, but normally super cancelable.)
This LITTLE bit that you talk about becomes a moot point to us because we've gotten used to HCBx2 and HCFx2 motions by now.
If the game's Climaxs didn't have most characters with such motions, I may've been fine with the input for it.
It's not a little point, it's a criticism throughout all moveset design in all competent fighters. Difficulty in execution should strike balances with the desired application of the move, factoring in things like invincibility, startup, and damage, as well. Moves that are meant to be used from blocking states, as quick reversals, or as tools that can only be used in proper situations should all have motions that agree with their intended use.
I still find it harder to use double HCB's in immediate situations than 2 qcb ones, and I think that's intentional and by design. But at the same time, I see them as a joy to preform VS 2 Full circle motions, which I think is one of the stupidest motions in fighters, lol. Capcom players say it's because, much like I said, the motion agrees with the strength of the near-instant throw and the fact it's an amazing reversal in most cases. I think 2 HCB's or a HCB+F is a better-rounded variant.
Malin's moveset in XI and 03 was simpler and her 3 supers were QCFx2 motions
Eeew, 03, lol. I disliked a lot of the design in that game, and the feel of controls was some of the worse in KoF to me. XI is the KoF that I ended up liking as it's own game, that took me the longest to actually like. I don't remember how I felt about Malin's move flow enough to comment on her directly, but I just know those 2 games had some of my least favorite design philosophy.
Betty in XI (at least) has a simple moveset and her supers are QCF, HCB and reverse motions with her Climax/Neomax being QCFx2. That's one way they could've done the supers.
I did like Betty in XI, though! I never gel'd with her in XIII as much as I wished, however. Her Neomax being 2 QCF is great because it was a counter. Daimon's in XIII is exactly the same, and Geese's is a qcf,hcb, both which let you present aggressive motions to help bait people into thinking you're open. It also makes it incredibly easy to cancel a fireball thrown into his counter, if the opponent takes the hop-and-attack-me bait.
I think you can see method in SNK's motion madness when you look for it. And I don't think much of it is nearly as daunting as getting used to item builds in a MOBA, or learning bullet velocity and bomb arcs in certain shooters.
Depends. Sometimes they get hung up on specific things, other times they show all ES DMs but few normal ones, etc.
I'm pretty sure Yuri is still the only character with 3 DMs. 2 is the standard, though. And there's also not many DMs that can be done on ground and air here. Chou! Hissatsu Shinobi Bachi with Mai is one of the exceptions that comes to mind... Kyo lost his Air Orochi Nagi
As keen viewers watching the Women's fighter team trailer may have noticed, the footage shows King having an auto-guard on her standing B. This is a shoutout to her standing weak kick from AOF2 which featured the same property and was not only was useful, but could be utilized to perform some eyecandy glitches under rare conditions.
NP. Oh, and he has a Rekka chain (The one that starts with HP, the "Dokugami" series) that ends with his DP as part of the chain. You're not confusing that for doing 100 Shinki Oniyaki out of his rekkas, are you? Just being sure!
That's sexy. One more tool to buff her in fireball wars. Maybe this is the trade for why she has no invulnerability at ALL with Illusion Dance, from what we've seen?
... does Leona get one for having none of V-Slasher? Maybe she can empty cancel whiff X-Calibur into it or something...
Agreed, I'm also looking forward to seeing what neat changes she and others have which aren't immediately obvious ala King's guard point LK, Ryo being about to combo after fireball supers etc.
There's a lot of variation to the cast so it will be interesting to see where everyone ends up in terms of strength, weaknesses and effectiveness.
This stuff is fun. It's out-of-the-box thinking that I love so much from SNK (and even in many of the Playmore years). They're good at making old stuff feel new again, in ways that perfectly align with what I want out of games. Even when I'm depressed in something they do, I can at least find some of the "why". Most other Hsien-Ko in UMVC3 fighters present me with similar issues, that I really can't make as much rhyme or reason out of.
And that's honestly pretty important to me. It's why I vastly prefer Virtua Fighter over Tekken, and why the MK series / Netherrelm gameplay designs in general never seems to stick with me.
Ok I see now. Technically it's not from a raw activation but it works to do the same thing. Activating after an anti air to bypass recovery frames is a very smart and elegant solution. I didn't think of doing this at all. She became a lot more interesting after seeing that video.
I've notice that "Kara-canceling" CD's is pretty crazy in this iteration. Kyo can get alomost 50% screen DPs and up-kicks out of stuff like this. I wouldn't be surprised if Vice can get additional use out of EX Should or Sleeves from this fact, as well.
Glad to hear she can get CDM out of EX Gorefest also. The fact that move never lead to any additional damage always bugged me. This is limited, but much better than nothing.
That's actually a great point too. I should experiment with this more for sure. The heavy one has pretty good range but is kinda slow. If I can extend the range of the light sleeve her neutral game will improve a lot. Too bad I wasn't able to light shoulder after heavy sleeve like I used to in 13.
