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[PdotMichael]

People are always free to make an own platform tailored to their own needs.

But of course no one does that because YouTube is a loss leader for Google. It's not good business practive. Youtubers are one of the few people or maybe the only ones who can earn something with Youtube.
That a lot of content of Youtubers is garbage and companies are pulling out ads from the service just showcases that it was never a sustainable business for Youtubers.

 

[Dick Justice]

Of course you don't believe him, what the fuck would you know about it? Shooting and editing videos together takes a lot of time and effort. Much more effort than, say, sitting in a call centre and speaking to customers over the phone. I know this because I've done both. But hey, as long as you're happy that people you're blatantly jealous of are now worse off, eh?

 

[Coffinhal]

I don't get what the agreeable response is here, am I to be outraged and worry for their future? If you've put some many of your eggs into a YouTube channel shaped basket that you're screwed if it fails then you probably need to start making more sensible life choices.

Mayb you should consider their point of view since you, I quote, "don't have a great deal of understanding about [what goes behind the scenes]" and "just don't understand" what is up there ?

You should do it not just to judge them as you do (good/bad life choices) with some neoliberal ideology (it's life, it's nature, it's business etc) but to have an opinion on a matter that is more global, with actual knowledge on how things work - and you clearly said you are misinformed on the matter.

The whole "basket & eggs" analogy is anyway obsolete since most Youtubers already diversify their incomes (patreon donations, sponsoring, native-advertising, old-media partnership) but the YouTube monopoly, ads Policy, lack of fair use recognition, creative and content curation/support Policy are topics that can be discussed.

People are always free to make an own platform tailored to their own needs.

But of course no one does that because YouTube is a loss leader for Google. It's not good business practive. Youtubers are one of the few people or maybe the only ones who can earn something with Youtube.
That a lot of content of Youtubers is garbage and companies are pulling out ads from the service just showcases that it was never a sustainable business for Youtubers.

Vimeo does that and is pretty successful in its niche. A good alternative for creative people and high-quality content without ads.

 

[NinjaBoiX]

It is a shame that these guys aren't making as much money as they used to, I'm not suggesting otherwise. But it's not the end of the world, let's be realistic.

Of course you don't believe him, what the fuck would you know about it? Shooting and editing videos together takes a lot of time and effort. Much more effort than, say, sitting in a call centre and speaking to customers over the phone.

I'm sure it does take a lot of time and effort, but "10x the effort" (yes, I appreciate this was a turn of phrase rather than an actual estimate) points to some Herculaneun undertaking rather than "something I do on the side that makes me some extra money". It's a needless exaggeration, we know it takes up a lot of your time but let's not go nuts.

But hey, as long as you're happy that people you're blatantly jealous of are now worse off, eh?

I'm genuinely not jealous, I'm really not. I couldn't do what they do (I don't have the time nor inclination), nor would I want to (I'm just not that into games anymore and would feel incredibly awkward filming myself).

I run my own business and simply wouldn't have the time to take on something that takes up so much time and energy. I think they should be thankful that they've managed to make such a good living off it and just make peace with the fact that sometimes these things come to an end.

Also, a point to consider is that as you've jumped to the conclusion that I must be jealous suggests that you're perhaps the one with the negative outlook.

I'm indifferent, that's kind of my point.

 

[Lady Gaia]

Of course you don't believe him, what the fuck would you know about it? Shooting and editing videos together takes a lot of time and effort.

There are a lot of things people don't want to pay for that take a lot of time and effort. Writing, directing, and editing bad movies. Wrapping islands in cheese. Kicking a rock from coast to coast. The simple fact that you're not attracting revenue is supposed to be an incentive to do change something about what you're doing. Pick something that people value enough to spend money on, or keep doing what you're doing because you believe in it and don't think getting paid is the point.

Complaining that people should be paying you is pretty much missing the nature of our economy.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Of course you don't believe him, what the fuck would you know about it? Shooting and editing videos together takes a lot of time and effort. Much more effort than, say, sitting in a call centre and speaking to customers over the phone. I know this because I've done both. But hey, as long as you're happy that people you're blatantly jealous of are now worse off, eh?

Totally depends on the type of content. Most Lets Plays on Youtube are literally turning on your webcam and game and record it. Then maybe do some cuts if you want and slap some intro on it. I have done this. It is not much work.

Just like your call center job, the guy needing to fix the most difficult tasks with consumers will have a harder job then the 100 others that just need to say "restart your PC please".

Seems you are taking the criticism of Youtubers a bit personally. They are running a business, just like millions of people. And if you don't move with the times and adapt, you'll go under. I don't know why we need to feel sorry for Youtubers here. They knew the risk by giving out a ton of work to Google, and now when it goes against them for a bit, well, sucks for them, but that's life.

 

[NinjaBoiX]

Totally depends on the type of content. Most Lets Plays on Youtube are literally turning on your webcam and game and record it. Then maybe do some cuts if you want and slap some intro on it. I have done this. It is not much work.

Just like your call center job, the guy needing to fix the most difficult tasks with consumers will have a harder job then the 100 others that just need to say "restart your PC please".

Seems you are taking the criticism of Youtubers a bit personally. They are running a business, just like millions of people. And if you don't move with the times and adapt, you'll go under. I don't know why we need to feel sorry for Youtubers here. They knew the risk by giving out a ton of work to Google, and now when it goes against them for a bit, well, sucks for them, but that's life.

Exactly. I can't imagine most LP videos taking more than an hour or so max to edit and upload. Everything is already set up, you basically sit down and play, then edit out some crap and upload it.

I keep coming back to Joe Robinet because he's a boss and his camerwork/editing are exquisite (relatively speaking), just check this out:

Joe Robinet - Solo Overnight Camp: Calm Before The Storm

That seems like it takes some real work and a great deal of time and effort, especially compared to the aforementioned "turn the camera on and boot the game up".

 

[Syriel]

And those same advertisers will buy commercial airtime in the middle of the news hour on TV while the news is showing graphic depections of violence around the world.

Fucking ludicrous.

Nothing is stopping a YT content creator from going out and selling their video content directly. Jim Sterling is an example. He takes advantage of the free hosting provided by YT, but does not rely on YT's automated ad sales.

Business wise, perhaps. But it could also be it went down like this-

"Crap! How much are we losing from not monetizing these videos?

X.

And how much would it cost to curate better?

X + 1

Lol ok just ditch the monetization then"

You pretty much summed it up.

I just don't understand why it's such a scandal, it's not like YouTube employed them directly then just slashed their wages in half out of the blue. They made a lot of money for a while and now they won't make so much, I don't see why it's such a big deal. That's business man, adapt.

YouTube doesn't employ video uploaders. It provides a free hosting platform and a service to sell ads.

As a professional content creator, if you are not selling your content, that's on you. If you are reliant on ads, and your ad agency sucks, get a new agency. If your agency tells you that advertisers are shifting their spend to other types of content, then start making that type of content if you want to sell ads.

I've never understood making money off of youtube?

how does it work?

1) Post video on YT.
2) Let YT sell ads against it.
3) If ads sell, you share in the income.

No, they are not even entitled to it because they make content. That is an incentive. Just like you are not entitled to a cut from Facebooks ad income, just because you do a status update there. Just like you don't deserve a cut from the ad income from NeoGAF, but the users are the ones creating all the content.

Just because you upload content to the internet that gets views, doesn't mean you automatically deserve money for it. The same as when I open a shop and don't expect everyone walking by to come in and buy something.

Hosting video content is expensive. If you want to run a pure dollar-and-cents comparison, most YT content creators would probably end up in the red against YT if actual hosting costs were charged to them.

I suspect that's where some of the "entitlement" comments come from. You have content creators that are complaining because:

• They get free hosting.
• They have one-click access to an ad network.
• They retain full rights to all their content (no work-for-hire).

And they complain that advertisers aren't paying enough.

Advertisers are the customer here. Watching YouTubers complain about this is like hearing a game company CEO complain that consumers aren't paying enough for video games.

Of course you don't believe him, what the fuck would you know about it? Shooting and editing videos together takes a lot of time and effort. Much more effort than, say, sitting in a call centre and speaking to customers over the phone. I know this because I've done both. But hey, as long as you're happy that people you're blatantly jealous of are now worse off, eh?

I can speak as someone who has earned a living as a content creator, including for major outlets. The actual creating is the most enjoyable part of the job. The rest of it (the selling, etc.) is the annoying bits.

If you have any sort of experience, shooting and editing a video is not hard. If you have a lot of footage, it may be time consuming (you're not going to do a final edit on a feature film in two days), but it's not a difficult task.

And it's certainly a lot easier/faster today than it was when you had to worry about syncing tape. The advent of desktop systems that could do broadcast quality NLE made things a magnitude simpler.

The whole "basket & eggs" analogy is anyway obsolete since most Youtubers already diversify their incomes (patreon donations, sponsoring, native-advertising, old-media partnership) but the YouTube monopoly, ads Policy, lack of fair use recognition, creative and content curation/support Policy are topics that can be discussed.

Fair use is a funny one to bring up as so many YouTubers that are vocal about it are rather ignorant of the law.

Fair use is not a difficult concept if you have studied media law, which is a required thing for pretty much any media degree.

It is a point that highlights the simple fact that many people jumped into YouTube without taking the time to learn about the requirements of the business that they wanted to run, instead opting to learn it along-the-way. Which is a valid way to do things, but doing so it naturally going to be rougher, and with a few more bumps, than it would be for someone who already understands the space.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Hosting video content is expensive. If you want to run a pure dollar-and-cents comparison, most YT content creators would probably end up in the red against YT if actual hosting costs were charged to them.

I suspect that's where some of the "entitlement" comments come from. You have content creators that are complaining because:

• They get free hosting.
• They have one-click access to an ad network.
• They retain full rights to all their content (no work-for-hire).

And they complain that advertisers aren't paying enough.

Advertisers are the customer here. Watching YouTubers complain about this is like hearing a game company CEO complain that consumers aren't paying enough for video games.

Yeah, I think a lot of people are not thinking how expensive video is to deliver. Let's say you do this yourself through Amazon Cloudfront and you got 500.000 viewers per video, do 3 per week, video is +- 100 mb (this is conservative, a ton of longer video's are larger, certainly at 1080p). That would be 6 million views, so 600.000 GB in traffic.

Amazon charges 0,025 per GB at that rate, but a bit more for the first X amount of GB until you reach certain targets. That is around $ 27.000 in bandwidth alone according to their calculator. So yeah, that's a bit of money right there. Per view you have already lost $ 0,0045. That might not sound like much, but at a CPM rate of $5 you only earn $ 0,005 per view. And that is if all views are monetized.

I think I've done that calculation right. I'm sure there are some better dedicated video alternatives available, but just to give an idea.

 

[MadMod]

But these people wouldn't be able to make a living, or a nice chunk of side cash, without YouTube being the behemoth it is. The only reason many of these people wound up with followings in the first place is the concentrated, overwhelming volume of traffic to YouTube. It's a double-edged sword.

That does make sense, maybe what I'm saying is that they just need some competition to make them just slightly more favourable towards its small fish. (independent youtubers, not companies)

 

[Sixfortyfive]

I'm sure it does take a lot of time and effort, but "10x the effort" (yes, I appreciate this was a turn of phrase rather than an actual estimate) points to some Herculaneun undertaking rather than "something I do on the side that makes me some extra money". It's a needless exaggeration, we know it takes up a lot of your time but let's not go nuts.

It was not an exaggeration.

You'll recall that I said that I "stream gaming tournaments." And if you're a one-man production for that kind of stuff, then you need to wear a lot of different hats and take care of a lot of different things: dynamic scoreboard overlays (everything from making the graphics to having a program that can update that stuff on the fly), camerawork, the ability to competently commentate games that you might not even play, basic electrical know-how (how many setups you can plug into one circuit before you risk tripping the breaker), the finer points of every console's video output settings (what supports full-range vs only limited, how not to crush whites/blacks, making sure you're capturing in the right color space so that your greens/reds aren't fucked up, when deinterlacing is necessary for retro stuff and what algorithms work best for the situation, etc). A single workday at an event like this can run upward of 12 hours of stream time (and that doesn't account for all of the necessary set-up, tear-down, and post-production work), and the events themselves are often scattershot volunteer affairs without concrete schedules or much in the way of support staff.

It's something that I do at larger events maybe 3 or 4 times per year, and those long weekends for sure have a far more intensive workload than my normal 9 to 5.

 

[ClosingADoor]

It was not an exaggeration.

You'll recall that I said that I "stream gaming tournaments." And if you're a one-man production for that kind of stuff, then you need to wear a lot of different hats and take care of a lot of different things: dynamic scoreboard overlays (everything from making the graphics to having a program that can update that stuff on the fly), camerawork, the ability to competently commentate games that you might not even play, basic electrical know-how (how many setups you can plug into one circuit before you risk tripping the breaker), the finer points of every console's video output settings (what supports full-range vs only limited, how not to crush whites/blacks, making sure you're capturing in the right color space so that your greens/reds aren't fucked up, when deinterlacing is necessary for retro stuff and what algorithms work best for the situation, etc). A single workday at an event like this can run upward of 12 hours of stream time (and that doesn't account for all of the necessary set-up, tear-down, and post-production work), and the events themselves are often scattershot volunteer affairs without concrete schedules or much in the way of support staff.

It's something that I do at larger events maybe 3 or 4 times per year, and those long weekends for sure have a far more intensive workload than my normal 9 to 5.

But this does not at all translate to the schedule of a Youtuber doing it - or trying to do it - for a living. You are volunteering at amateur events and choose to do all the work without a team in place. Sure, then it is more intensive for those few times a year.

If this would be a constant thing, then it is not sustainable like that and you would slow down to a more regular workload.

 

[Mooreberg]

Seems like a huge opening for competing platforms, but stuff like Twitch is mostly through in stream donations and patreon, right? But yeah, people making money off the groundwork and backbone of a platform that doesn't actually make money has always seem strange.

 

[SprachBrooks]

Getting paid to play a video game is riding the gravy train whichever way you slice it. You know what? Gravy trains end at some point, that's life.

Hell, steam something more wholesome for your ad clicks and play the violent stuff in your own time.

God forbid people try and do something they enjoy. You're so fucking pathetic. You want everyone to be consigned to a miserable 9-5, where remuneration is insufficient and exploitation is rampant.

 

[WillyFive]

But yeah, people making money off the groundwork and backbone of a platform that doesn't actually make money has always seem strange.

Strange? Isn't that the norm? Pretty much all US businesses rely on infrastructure that makes no money to those who made that infrastructure (such as highways for example).

 

[Ihyll]

Well these people didn't feel sorry for me when I had to go into work every day...so I'm not sorry that their gravy train is over.

Hopefully they find something to support themselves though.

 

[NinjaBoiX]

It was not an exaggeration.

You'll recall that I said that I "stream gaming tournaments." And if you're a one-man production for that kind of stuff, then you need to wear a lot of different hats and take care of a lot of different things: dynamic scoreboard overlays (everything from making the graphics to having a program that can update that stuff on the fly), camerawork, the ability to competently commentate games that you might not even play, basic electrical know-how (how many setups you can plug into one circuit before you risk tripping the breaker), the finer points of every console's video output settings (what supports full-range vs only limited, how not to crush whites/blacks, making sure you're capturing in the right color space so that your greens/reds aren't fucked up, when deinterlacing is necessary for retro stuff and what algorithms work best for the situation, etc). A single workday at an event like this can run upward of 12 hours of stream time (and that doesn't account for all of the necessary set-up, tear-down, and post-production work), and the events themselves are often scattershot volunteer affairs without concrete schedules or much in the way of support staff.

It's something that I do at larger events maybe 3 or 4 times per year, and those long weekends for sure have a far more intensive workload than my normal 9 to 5.

OK that does sound like a lot of work, as an occasional thing I can see that being viable. I assumed you meant that you do this week in week out.

God forbid people try and do something they enjoy. You're so fucking pathetic. You want everyone to be consigned to a miserable 9-5, where remuneration is insufficient and exploitation is rampant.

Are you high?

 

[MWS Natural]

Well these people didn't feel sorry for me when I had to go into work every day...so I'm not sorry that their gravy train is over.

Hopefully they find something to support themselves though.

LOL you sound bitter as fuck. How about you go into a field that you enjoy so no one has to feel sorry for you going to work?

 

[ClosingADoor]

Strange? Isn't that the norm? Pretty much all US businesses rely on infrastructure that makes no money to those who made that infrastructure (such as highways for example).

Those are paid for through taxes, so everyone using them is paying for it. You don't pay to use Youtube. If Youtubers and visitors paid for the platform, then there would actually be no need for advertisers.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

But this does not at all translate to the schedule of a Youtuber doing it - or trying to do it - for a living. You are volunteering at amateur events and choose to do all the work without a team in place. Sure, then it is more intensive for those few times a year.

If this would be a constant thing, then it is not sustainable like that and you would slow down to a more regular workload.

Sure, but what I'm saying is that there's a lot more work behind video production in general than what's often credited.

I have some respect for anyone who can take even a static living room set-up and create something capable of retaining an audience on a daily basis for years on end without burning themselves out or dropping off sharply in quality at some point along the way.

 

[Nanashrew]

Things like Let's Plays have become a lucrative business. And that's something I think many forget as well, it's a business. They're more or less on par with commercial advertisement and even get free games to promote. They have to put in quite a lot of effort though, and with changes to how the business works, they'll have to put in quite a bit more. It's hard work.

They'll likely have to partner with certain advertisers and game companies in order to continue their job. Linus Tech Tips often works with advertisers and does an advertisement segment at the end of his videos. Even PeanutButterGamer has worked with some like LootCrate and advertised for them. This is something that every YouTuber will likely have to do going forward to stay alive outside of Patreon. They're also going to have to be more pro-active, and not always relying on their useless MCN's in building relations with game companies and advertisers. They'll have to be their own agent because MCN's haven't been much help these days and they're only getting worse and less helpful.

The world of entertainment is being highly pro-active and playing by company rules to move up in the world and stay relevant.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Sure, but what I'm saying is that there's a lot more work behind video production in general than what's often credited.

I have some respect for anyone who can take even a static living room set-up and create something capable of retaining an audience on a daily basis for years on end without burning themselves out or dropping off sharply in quality at some point along the way.

Sure, that's true. I don't hate these people or anything also. If people want to watch it, and you enjoy doing it, more power to you. The only thing I am a bit tired of personally is some of the larger Youtube personalities complaining about Google and Youtube, while not acknowledging that a ton of work is taken from their hands so they can focus on the creative aspect more then they would normally be able to, and that they could get started with 0 risk involved, little investment, etc.

I don't think anyone posting in this thread is happy people are losing money now (well, aside from those hateful channels not getting less, that is good), but just saying: that's the risk, time to adapt if you want to continue, just like you would in any business.

 

[OgCarnage]

That is an unfortunate turn of events. I'm not Sure why the hate for YouTubers. It's a legitimate job and not just anyone can do it. Everyone can try but not everyone will make it. I hope this gets fixed because if it didn't what will I watch when I'm sitting in the can or have downtime on my job? Netflix should hop on this and start it's own version of YouTube.

 

[paragonpro]

I honestly hate how coroprate yt has become, i miss the days when people made content as a hobby and not for a living

 

[Spyderist]

The top youtubers are flukes, and they should've been thankful for being flukes because lots of talented people never made that much, and a few untalented people have. The thing is that youtube is expensive to host, and Google can afford to keep it around while they try to figure out how to make money from the thing. You as the producer is not as important as getting brand name advertisers.

 

[Orca]

you are confusing a hand out with a wage. youtubers are not entitled in any way to fair compensation. welcome to the sharing economy son.

When you enable monetization on a video you enter an agreement with YouTube where they'll pay you based on the performance of that video and the ads they attach to it. There's a responsibility on the creator not to do anything wrong on their end - using copyrighted music, stealing someone's video, etc... and also one on YouTube to pay them what they're owed for the impressions they generate.

That's work - not a handout. Welcome to the very first day of business 101, son..

No, they are not even entitled to it because they make content. That is an incentive. Just like you are not entitled to a cut from Facebooks ad income, just because you do a status update there. Just like you don't deserve a cut from the ad income from NeoGAF, but the users are the ones creating all the content.

Just because you upload content to the internet that gets views, doesn't mean you automatically deserve money for it. The same as when I open a shop and don't expect everyone walking by to come in and buy something.

Where do you choose to monetize your status updates on Facebook or your posts here? I can't seem to find that setting.

When you upload your content that gets views to a site that has entered into an agreement with you to pay you for those views, then yes...you're "entitled" to your share of the money they generate.

Let's say you open a shop and part of it includes drop shipping the widgets you sell direct from factory to the customer. If the retailer you're getting your widget inventory from decides not to pay you for your last dozen 'direct to customer' orders, wouldn't you be pissed? I mean you're the reason they bought them, even if it was the factory that did all the work after you created that demand and got the customer to them...aren't you?

 

[ClosingADoor]

Where do you choose to monetize your status updates on Facebook or your posts here? I can't seem to find that setting.

When you upload your content that gets views to a site that has entered into an agreement with you to pay you for those views, then yes...you're "entitled" to your share of the money they generate.

Let's say you open a shop and part of it includes drop shipping the widgets you sell direct from factory to the customer. If the retailer you're getting your widget inventory from decides not to pay you for your last dozen 'direct to customer' orders, wouldn't you be pissed? I mean you're the reason they bought them, even if it was the factory that did all the work after you created that demand and got the customer to them...aren't you?

You can't, that's the point. The attitude of "I upload content so I deserve money" is a faulty one, since it doesn't work like that on the internet. That agreement you have with Youtube is: you upload content, you get a cut from what we earn on it. Well, guess what? Now Youtube earns less from those videos since advertisers don't want their ads there. So you earn less also and are not entitled to a larger amount.

Your comparison with selling stuff is flawed. Nothing is being sold or shipped anymore. No money is being earned by Youtube on these videos, so of course you are not getting paid. There are no orders, so what is there to be pissed about?

Youtube did not cut the share content creators get. That is still the same. But advertisers don't want to buy ad space anymore, so there is no cut to give.

 

[boneyjangles]

When no kids are watching TV, and they all turn to YouTube, and a lot of the most successful YouTube stars are just recording themselves playing video games, and the people who make those video games are getting none of the money, you know the status quo will eventually change.

On the other side of the coin, it's all ad money, and everyone is either blocking ads or pressing skip instantly. How much money can their be?

 

[Syriel]

When you enable monetization on a video you enter an agreement with YouTube where they'll pay you based on the performance of that video and the ads they attach to it. There's a responsibility on the creator not to do anything wrong on their end - using copyrighted music, stealing someone's video, etc... and also one on YouTube to pay them what they're owed for the impressions they generate.

That's work - not a handout. Welcome to the very first day of business 101, son..

Working "on spec" is the absolute worst way for a creative to build a career.

That's one of the fundamentals of running your own business. Before you start bragging about your business skills, perhaps you should take a business 101 refresher course.

Let's say you open a shop and part of it includes drop shipping the widgets you sell direct from factory to the customer. If the retailer you're getting your widget inventory from decides not to pay you for your last dozen 'direct to customer' orders, wouldn't you be pissed? I mean you're the reason they bought them, even if it was the factory that did all the work after you created that demand and got the customer to them...aren't you?

Except that's not happening here.

In this case the customer (advertiser), is telling the retail shop (Google), that it doesn't want to buy any more product from certain factories (content creator) because the quality isn't up to the customer's level. The retail shop still takes orders for all the factories, but the customers are only purchasing from some of the factories.

 

[ClosingADoor]

How much money can their be?

Youtube has about 10 billion in revenue a year or so last thing I read.

 

[Syriel]

Revenue is not profit.

 

[Moon_frogger]

so another thing is this what happens when you base your entire youtube channel around 1 game. the same thing is happening to dark souls youtubers/streamer but fortunately i think those folks will be back in business sooner than they think. I doubt miyazaki and co are going to complete abandon the 'obtuse action rpg in a horror setting with environmental storytelling and clever online elements' genre anytime soon.