Md Ray
Member
That world-changing mechanic isn't something new. Even Titanfall 2, a last-gen game, did that in the form of "time-travel". On PS4/XB1.
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Kraken Vs ZLIB: 29% Smaller Game Sizes Losslessly, 297% Faster Decompression on PS5
FatKingBallman
Banned
Md Ray
Member
Ah, it's directed by one of my favorite game directors, Amy Hennig, but unfortunately, I haven't had the chance to play that game. Does it have the same mechanic?Remember Soul Reaver??
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Dr Bass
Member
The only place I have seen the idea that the Xbox SX IO solution can even compete with the PS5 one, is on this board. Everyone, everywhere, states the PS5 SSD design as a far superior design, and THE big advantage of the system.
The fact people are grasping at straws to try and "disprove" this looks nuts. The Xbox can't do what that PS5 can in terms of data. That's just the bottom line. MS also LOVES to market "speeds and feeds." If they were anywhere in the ballpark with this tech they would have shouted it from the rooftops. They aren't, and just looking at the system architecture breakdowns make this obvious. All of this SFS and other talk is just, again, grasping at straws.
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MasterCornholio
Member
My main issue with the Medium isn't the switching because that's extremely fast. It's the fact that performance takes a big hit due to rendering two worlds at once. Ratchet on the other hand doesn't appear to suffer because of its constant streaming. Yes the change isn't instantaneous like The Medium but the performance suffers a lot less. And talking about the speed that it changes.
Is that really so bad?
FatKingBallman
Banned
I dont think anyone has ever said this? Why use the best case scenario?
Also part of this discussion is games sizes being smaller due to compression. If a game is 100GB in size on next gen...that means we are looking at near 200GB if it was on last gen?
I also dont think it has to be 22GB/s to be exploited.
I would stop focusing on the best case scenarios and just focus on what they both can do on average.
This is one of the reason why I tried to bring the Kraken, Oodle info back into a discussion in another thread.
No matter how good it is on Series consoles, it will just be better on PS5. It is what it is.
Both consoles are capable, and each console has strengths n weaknesses in comparison.
Both consoles.
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
With Oodle Textures PS5 averages at 17GB/s after decompression. The UE5 didn't even use Oodle Textures and was only using lossless Kraken alone, so PS5 can easily do that with higher resolution and higher framerates.
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vivftp
Member
My main issue with the Medium isn't the switching because that's extremely fast. It's the fact that performance takes a big hit due to rendering two worlds at once. Ratchet on the other hand doesn't appear to suffer because of its constant streaming. Yes the change isn't instantaneous like The Medium but the performance suffers a lot less. And talking about the speed that it changes.
Is that really so bad?
Some transitions are instantaneous:
(13:04 timestamp)
MasterCornholio
Member
I remember that. But I'm guessing in those moments there's less data being moved around. Generally with Ratchet changing worlds has a longer transition than teleportation. When you change worlds a lot more assets have to be dumped and retrieved from the SSD.
Utherellus
Member
People want Hellblade2 trailer to be vaporware CGI deception so much, I cant.
Remember this? It's running on single Gtx1080Ti, realtime, 30 fps.
Even if it was not captured on Xbox, how on hell can you say that XSX isnt capable of rendering Hellblade 2 trailer, after we all saw UE5 demo which perfectly explains why the trailer looked that way?
Ninja Theory future proofed the visuals to represent UE5 render target, when they transfer game to new engine.
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Utherellus
Member
Dude. The industry shifted from 150MB/s game design standards to minimum of 4.8GB/s+ streaming standards. From compressing with CPU to compressing with dedicated chips.
It's already 32 times improvement than last gen. It's already freaking amazing. It's already stellar difference in terms of how I/O operations are handled compared to last gen games we all love and made us impressed how next-gen they looked at the time of release.
Downplaying Xbox I/O system, which NEVER even showed itself in full glory with inhouse AAA titles, "looks nuts".
"All of this SFS and other talk is just, again, grasping at straws"
Sure, because you know better than MS engineers how not-groundbreaking Feedback Streaming is. Who put actual hardware in a silicon for this feature. You know better, buddy.
lmao this is ridiculous. Only ones grasping at straws here are hardcore fanboys who love whipping buzzwords they read online.
JackMcGunns
Member
Is game install size affected the same way, or is this just about texture streaming ?
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
- Hellblade II. We saw an in-engine movie at sub-4K and 24 FPS that was not running on Series X.
- ARK 2. Again, just in-engine footage that rarely represents actual gameplay.
- Suicide Squad. A cross-gen game so does not even represent a "real next-gen game".
And how did you come to that conclusion? Developers have been praising the PS5 SSD and have termed it as the biggest and most important factor in next-gen.
So why are you spreading misinformation? Please present your developer sources and their quotes who echo what you have just said or apologize for spreading misinformation on the forum.
Lysandros
Member
That must be the most unfortunate take on PS5's I/O-SSD hardware yet.
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Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
Absolutely. I'm waiting for his clarification or a self-correction or apology for the next day or so. Otherwise, people who intentionally spread misinformation without bringing in receipts should be reported and banned.
azertydu91
Hard to Kill
Sure you can do great things with thoses consoles but don't forget that this :
Led to this :
So maybe dial down expectations significantly for the beginning of the gen.If you plan on telling me that Hellblade 2 will not release at the beginning of the gen then how come they could get anything done realtime on unfinished hardware so far off release?
The simplest solution is that it is exactly like the Halo teaser ... CGI.I'm not saying that at the end of this gen games won't look that good or even better just that when it was released it was not realtime at all on XSX.
Playboi Carti
Member
First off, Rocksteady's Suicide Squad is not a cross-gen game. Secondly I'll say it again, those who are still doubting are in for a rude awakening. It doesn't matter if it's in-engine or 24fps, both consoles are able to pull off visuals like those with ease wether you believe it or not, just because you haven't seen it happening yet doesn't mean it's impossible.
And why do y'all keep assuming I'm not praising the SSD? I'm literally pointing out how the PS5 SSD is meant to be overkill to prevent anything from bottlenecking it because historically, storage has always been the bottleneck, so to technically have everything else in the system bottlenecking the storage is a dream come true for developers, and that's a fact. It's not that hard comprehend, ain't my fault y'all really struggling ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
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Playboi Carti
Member
You should the post above again and again until you understand it fully, ain't my fault you can't comprehend basic console storage logic.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
In short, if Xbox Series X uses Oodle Kraken, which is not exclusive to any platform, it should have the same numbers on the title from its current ZLIB offering. PS5 has a dedicated decompressor for Kraken which will give even more better numbers, which is the first and unique of its kind, but if you read the OP Kraken still works well on ZLIB decompressors like PS4 and Xbox consoles.
This is a full propose lossless decompression tool like ZLIB (game, audio, textures "compressed or not", and anything else). Oodle Texture can be compared to BCPack which are both lossy texture compressions.
Both Oodle Kraken and Oodle Texture have been licensed by Sony to all developers to use for free on PS5 and PS4, and expect them to be offered with UE4/5 now as Epic Games bought RAD Tools lately, just like when they bought Quixel. You can as a developer license it for yourself, but most devs just save their money and take what's offered on the platform.
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
I think Xbox can run that trailer on UE5, because it's 4K 25% compressed assets vs RAW 8K cinema assets on PS5's UE5 gameplay demo, which is 5.3x smaller on Rebirth. Of course talking about Nanite, also it doesn't have software GI (Lumen). The UE5 gameplay demo on PS5 was more like a stress test, as toned down to compressed 4K assets and using Lumen through the intersection engines (RT hardware units on the silicon) it can easily run at 4K@60fps instead.
Rebirth was 24fps though, just like Hellblade 2 with cutdown 4K to 21:9 ratio, just like Hellblade 2 as well. So Hellblade 2 trailer most likely was running on UE4, which is a good thing for what we can expect.
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
See, I know why you "genuinely" think it's an overkill. I'll break it down to you so you know it's EXTREMELY important and having even more speed is much better to achieve semi-RAM SSD storage:
9-22GB/s means means 9-22MB/ms, so if you can stream so fast up to 22 megabytes per a millisecond that turns your storage into semi-RAM:
Old method:
PS5 method when games and engines are coded so:
This calculation was before Oodle Texture and only using lossless compression:
So now 2GB/5GB per sec/3.16 = 0.12sec, so you can stream 10GB of unique data within 0.63sec only! Which makes what Mark Cerny said 100% true, you load things as you turn in game:
Timestamped
It's far from being an overkill, and you actually would need it to be even faster if using a mouse or turning extremely fast and want to load high quality assets simultaneously to avoid having black/empty spots or pop in, it actually makes traditional RAM on PS5 going higher than 16GB might be an overkill, but that's not the case on Xbox and PC as they need to compensate with RAM (if programmed accordingly). In any case, multiplats will be designed around Xbox Series S for the next 7-6 years, which PS5 exclusives will make much more sense to fully saturate the PS5 system and stand out from the crowd. On UE5 though scaling down would be easier as you can choose the frame budget for each system, but that's only for textures not AI and other calculations.
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See, I know why you "genuinely" think it's an overkill. I'll break it down to you so you know it's EXTREMELY important and having even more speed is much better to achieve semi-RAM SSD storage:
9-22GB/s means means 9-22MB/ms, so if you can stream so fast up to 22 megabytes per a millisecond that turns your storage into semi-RAM:
Old method:
PS5 method when games and engines are coded so:
This calculation was before Oodle Texture and only using lossless compression:
So now 2GB/5GB per sec/3.16 = 0.12sec, so you can stream 10GB of unique data within 0.63sec only! Which makes what Mark Cerny said 100% true, you load things as you turn in game:
Timestamped
It's far from being and overkill, and you actually would need it to be even faster if using a mouse or turning extremely fast and want to load high quality assets simultaneously to avoid having black/empty spots or pop in, it actually makes traditional RAM on PS5 going higher than 16GB might be an overkill, but that's not the case on Xbox and PC as they need to compensate with RAM (if programmed accordingly). In any case, multiplats will be designed around Xbox Series S for the next 7-6 years, which PS5 exclusives will make much more sense. On UE5 though scaling down would be easier as you can choose the frame budget for each system, but that's only for textures not AI and other calculations.
it's very good for initial loading (launch game/level loading/ respawn ) or for something not usual similar to what is happening in ratchet which I honestly don't see how it can be carried over into any kind of game..so i don't think will revolutionize anything not that it can't be done with a normal SSD at the moment (and by normal SSD I mean something much slower than the sx I / O). Even today the most noticeable bottleneck (and from what we see from the games also in the PS5) it's the GPU .... and certainly the time it takes for the devs to create and the size of the assets.
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Dodkrake
Banned
The less stuff you can have on RAM, the more stuff you can have on screen (Higher res textures, for example). You also don't need to constrain your design (check Jak & Daxters design choices to ensure an "open world" and how it impacted the level design). On games like spiderman, it implied less unique assets + slower webbing across the city. In HZD, it meant flying effectively was not an option.
Your feelings don't matter, it's absolutely going to change game design. This change will come to PC's whenever the HDD is not the de facto standard. Until then, cross platform titles are design capped to the PC.
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
Your answer was already given in the Bluepoint video I shared with you earlier.
It's the PS5's SSD and I/O pipeline why Demon's Souls used such high-quality textures and looked so much better than other games. It's the same reason why Ratchet & Clank has so much detail and graphical fidelity. Because the entire RAM is free and is fully dedicated to the scene you're viewing. It does not have to worry about keeping other stuff in it because it knows the SSD is fast enough and will send whatever stuff it needs right in time.
....ppl dont want Hellblade 2 to be vaporware....its this: (you even said 'even if it wasnt captured on Xbox...)
Thank you.
At this point ppl are just setting themselves up for disappoint vs being pleasantly surprised.
No big games were captured on XSX (IIRC some multi platform games were) and the Infinite thing should tell some folks to just take things patiently. Hellblade 2 looked good for what we saw, lets just wait until we actually see it on XSX hardware first.
Thats all.
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MasterCornholio
Member
That's not the situation. People want the developers to prove that the footage is going to be what you will get. What they don't want is a trailer that doesn't actually represent what they are going to get. Nobody wants to go through Killzone 2 or Halo Infinite ever again.
Ratchet has proven itself to be real now it's Hellblade 2 turn to do the same. And there's nothing wrong with that.
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See, I know why you "genuinely" think it's an overkill. I'll break it down to you so you know it's EXTREMELY important and having even more speed is much better to achieve semi-RAM SSD storage:
9-22GB/s means means 9-22MB/ms, so if you can stream so fast up to 22 megabytes per a millisecond that turns your storage into semi-RAM:
Old method:
PS5 method when games and engines are coded so:
This calculation was before Oodle Texture and only using lossless compression:
So now 2GB/5GB per sec/3.16 = 0.12sec, so you can stream 10GB of unique data within 0.63sec only! Which makes what Mark Cerny said 100% true, you load things as you turn in game:
Timestamped
It's far from being an overkill, and you actually would need it to be even faster if using a mouse or turning extremely fast and want to load high quality assets simultaneously to avoid having black/empty spots or pop in, it actually makes traditional RAM on PS5 going higher than 16GB might be an overkill, but that's not the case on Xbox and PC as they need to compensate with RAM (if programmed accordingly). In any case, multiplats will be designed around Xbox Series S for the next 7-6 years, which PS5 exclusives will make much more sense to fully saturate the PS5 system and stand out from the crowd. On UE5 though scaling down would be easier as you can choose the frame budget for each system, but that's only for textures not AI and other calculations.
Well Actually its:
2GB ÷ 5.5GB ÷ 3.16 (average) = .115 sec.
(Just joking)Seriously this is a major reason that I hope God of War isn't cross gen. Also I cant seem to find more in-depth info on the PS5 Geometry Engine. I think thats how the PS5 had Virtual Geometry and Virtual 8k textures without blowing up the memory budget in the Unreal Engine 5 demo.
Deputy Moonman
Member
I see that people still think Halo Infinite is going to be a terrible game and look horrible based off of a single, short demo of the campaign from last year. That's cute. Not only that but people also continue to ignore what kind of game Infinite is meant to be - semi open world while also supporting large multiplayer battles. I'm ready for the crow eating.
MasterCornholio
Member
Well it did look bad the last time we saw it. I guess we have to wait until the final product but there isn't a doubt that the engines demo looked much better than the campaign demo.
Unknown?
Member
I don't think he's saying that. His main point was that you incorrectly said Phil claimed it was running on a Series X.
A. Well it did look bad, thats why it was delayed. Also we still haven't seen any footage whatsoever of Halo Infinite running on XSX, everything so far have only been PC.
B. Partially the standards are high because by the time it releases it will be a 6 year development cycle.
C. For months Xbox fans and Microsoft was boasting about how powerful the XSX was. 12 tflops...12TFLOPS!!!! The PS5 is just RDNA 1.0 - 1.5 and a measly 9tflops (Nonsense)
D. When it came time to show its Power, it laid an egg.
E. Anyone willing to wager that Horizon 2 will be graphically superior to Halo?
Both are Cross gen games,
Both Open World Games.
Im thinking the PS5 Architecture will allow higher quality assets, More dense/alive environments for Horizon 2.
MasterCornholio
Member
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Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
What else are we supposed to base it on? We saw the game; it looked bad. So now the reasonable assumption is that the game looks bad unless the developer makes a 180. Now the onus depends on the developer, not us.
What are you basing on that the game will look great?
Forget Horizon. Even Spider-Man Miles Morales (a cross-gen game, based on a 2018 game, that would have released a year before Halo Infinite's release) would be significantly better looking than Halo Infinite.
Exactly.
I remember threads and posts about how Halo Infinite was gonna look better than most if not all next gen games that launched in the first 6 months based on that SlipSpace trailer. And turns out that was based on something not representative of actual gameplay.
Now folks are supposed to think, ok THIS time it will look, be better? It may, but thats literally a wait n see approach after last year. There is no crow to be ate when Infinite literally got a do over.
And you can best believe HFW and Miles will both get compared to Halo Infinite.
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Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
Yeah, no one is hating on it without cause. I remember when they were about to show Halo Infinite, it was streaming early morning in my country. I woke up, very excited, to see the first look at real next-gen gameplay (that's how they advertised it). I was so excited but ended up looking like this after the stream.
As of this moment, the game looks bad. I hope the developers took their time and improved the game significantly to make it at par with Spider-Man Miles Morales and Horizon Forbidden West. At that time, no one will say the game still looks bad, and we will all praise it. But the developer has to prove it now; we aren't going to just assume that the game looks great now without seeing any evidence.
FatKingBallman
Banned
Yeah, no one is hating on it without cause. I remember when they were about to show Halo Infinite, it was streaming early morning in my country. I woke up, very excited, to see the first look at real next-gen gameplay (that's how they advertised it). I was so excited but ended up looking like this after the stream.
As of this moment, the game looks bad. I hope the developers took their time and improved the game significantly to make it at par with Spider-Man Miles Morales and Horizon Forbidden West. At that time, no one will say the game still looks bad, and we will all praise it. But the developer has to prove it now; we aren't going to just assume that the game looks great now without seeing any evidence.
Halo Infinite since last released screeshots a month ago looks improved. But not that good. Interiors looks good, but landscapes are still bad, design of a Craig didn't changed at all
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
Exactly. There isn't enough evidence to suggest a complete overhaul and/or significant improvements. If they show massive improvements next month, I'm sure people will recognize and appreciate it.
To go along with the recent posts about Halo and HellBlade 2, Grubb in a current stream said HellBlade 2 might not be shown at this year's E3.
This is exactly the point some of us were trying to make. I'm starting to doubt if anything we saw of HB2 was gameplay related.
This is exactly the point some of us were trying to make. I'm starting to doubt if anything we saw of HB2 was gameplay related.
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
Really? Honestly, that's surprising. It's so surprising that I am inclined to not believe Jeff on this.
It's been already super long for Hellblade II. That game should have been released by Q4 2021 or by Q1 2022 at the latest. I was expecting a large chunk of raw gameplay this E3. If it doesn't show up this year at all, it means it's likely a 2023 game -- which is ridiculously long for a sequel.
Lethal01
Member
We were told by Microsoft themselves that what allows the 2.5x multiplier is the use of partially residential Textures, something that was possible on last gen hardware but wasn't as useful due to the slow speeds of hard drives. So while it is a GREAT feature, it's not that they are claiming won't be done almost as well on PS5 with some extra overhead.
MasterCornholio
Member
It could have been an engine demo like the first Infinite one. The execs saw it and were impressed so they showed it to us to help market the XSX.
I don't think it's wrong for them to do that but they should have been more transparent about the footage.
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Radical_3d
Member
I do.Remember Soul Reaver??
bentanchorbolt
Banned
I just, I don't care about any of this. I just want to play games, not beat off over things going on behind the scenes. So far next-gen has been a flaming hot letdown with zero next-gen only titles that I have any interest whatsoever in. Call me when Halo Infinite and God of War launch. I don't care about these differences because we all know when it comes down to it, its the artists talent that really matters. It's why companies like Rockstar, Naughty Dog, The Coalition, Sucker Punch, are a cut above everyone else, irrespective of the platform.
Joke post?
Halo Infinite is a cross gen game. Not net gen only.
Why you in this thread then? Nobody care that you don't care.
MvCSpiderman
Banned
Kraken? I thought politics were banned!
...I'm sorry (hey, I thought it was funny)
...I'm sorry (hey, I thought it was funny)
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bentanchorbolt
Banned
I don’t care if it’s cross gen or not.
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