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[Bo_Hazem]

Both of consoles will handle compression and streaming brilliantly. Both of them went different routes to accomplish same goal.

Though I'm sad that MS isn't advertising and most importantly not accelerating the release of Sampler Feedback Streaming which is groundbreaking feature by further giving 2-3x multiplier beyond 4.8GB/s I/O bandwidth.

That's just software, and will not overcome hardware latency without a sacrifice in IQ.

On the other hand PS5 has dedicated HW to go way beyond that and a dedicated API to one system, not Windows OS Lite.

PS5 is leagues ahead, no comparison.

Tim Sweeney Explains Exactly Why the PS5's SSD and I/O Architecture Is Way More Efficient Than PC's

Epic founder Tim Sweeney explained exactly why the PlayStation 5's SSD and I/O Architecture is way more efficient than PC's.

wccftech.com

That demo is having a 0.5GB pool with much inferior graphics than the UE5 demo (Raw Cinema Z-Brush assets, 8K and 16K shadows) that had 0.7GB pool.

That MS demo doesn't even look good enough for last gen graphics.

 

[Utherellus]

Yeah, around 6 is max. It was discussed here to the death. There is no +10 GB/s on XSX

Xbox Series X’s BCPack Texture Compression Technique 'might be' better than the PS5’s Kraken

This fighting over specs is a bit pathetic both will be fast enough and produce similat results - better/worse depending on game/dev/engine.. just like the gpu and cpu difference the main difference this gen will be exclusive games and services - gamepass, quick resume, enhanced bc with fps...

www.neogaf.com

And why should I take forum discussions as granted when:

1. I'm literally looking at official MS tech demo which delivers x2.9 optimized asset size?
2. Reading MS developer's confirmation about stacking performance bond between BCpack and SFS?

 

[MasterCornholio]

And why should I take forum discussions as granted when:

1. I'm literally looking at official MS tech demo which delivers x2.9 optimized asset size?
2. Reading MS developer's confirmation about stacking performance bond between BCpack and SFS?

I think the issue here is that you're looking at tech demos.



Granted tech demos are great to show what's possible but they are usually done under ideal conditions to show off the best results. They don't necessarily reflect on how games will be like.

 

[FatKingBallman]

And why should I take forum discussions as granted when:

1. I'm literally looking at official MS tech demo which delivers x2.9 optimized asset size?
2. Reading MS developer's confirmation about stacking performance bond between BCpack and SFS?

Same as one member claimed it is over 10 GB/s, but is it not. Well, if you want to be wrong and stay that way, be my guest.

 

[yewles1]

In case anyone else missed it, here's b-roll of the new R&C preview gameplay.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

And why should I take forum discussions as granted when:

1. I'm literally looking at official MS tech demo which delivers x2.9 optimized asset size?
2. Reading MS developer's confirmation about stacking performance bond between BCpack and SFS?

x2.9 for lossy textures alone. PS5 confirmed officially to go lossless up to x4 times total, which is 22GB/s. With lossy texture compression the average goes from 9GB/s to ~17GB/s, making the whole SSD a DDR4, single-channel RAM equivalent. UE5 demo was lossless compression, without Oodle Texture.

PS5 IO System to Be 'Supercharged' by Oodle Texture, Bandwidth Goes Up to 17.38GB/s

Sony has licensed the Oodle Texture technology, 'further superchanging' the PS5 IO system with a peak bandwidth of up to 17.38GB/s.

wccftech.com

It's like comparing 4cylinder 2.0L engine to V12 6.0L engine.

 

[MasterCornholio]

In case anyone else missed it, here's b-roll of the new R&C preview gameplay.

Oh jeez I really love Rivet.

 

[Utherellus]

That's just software, and will not overcome hardware latency without a sacrifice in IQ.

On the other hand PS5 has dedicated HW to go way beyond that and a dedicated API to one system, not Windows OS Lite.

PS5 is leagues ahead, no comparison.

Tim Sweeney Explains Exactly Why the PS5's SSD and I/O Architecture Is Way More Efficient Than PC's

Epic founder Tim Sweeney explained exactly why the PlayStation 5's SSD and I/O Architecture is way more efficient than PC's.

wccftech.com

That demo is having a 0.5GB pool with much inferior graphics than the UE5 demo (Raw Cinema Z-Brush assets, 8K and 16K shadows) that had 0.7GB pool.

That MS demo doesn't even look good enough for last gen graphics.

You are extremely biased (who would have guessed by looking at our profile)

And you are absolutely wrong. SFS is a hardware accelerated feature. Not even talking about decompression.

Just be happy that both consoles will deliver groundbreaking changes to game design and fidelity.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

You are extremely biased (who would have guessed by looking at our profile)

And you are absolutely wrong. SFS is a hardware accelerated feature. Not even talking about decompression.

Just be happy that both consoles will deliver groundbreaking changes to game design and fidelity.

Ok, I'm happy. Enjoy your day, sir.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Just be happy that both consoles will deliver groundbreaking changes to game design and fidelity.

Well I mean Ratchet was designed around the PS5s I/O so you're right about the I/O affecting game design.

 

[Utherellus]

I think the issue here is that you're looking at tech demos.



Granted tech demos are great to show what's possible but they are usually done under ideal conditions to show off the best results. They don't necessarily reflect on how games will be like.

1. That narrative can be used for UE5 demo like a butter lol. So lets settle this - Will SFS demo fail to deliver same performance in real games like UE5 demo will fail? Or both demos will deliver similar performance in games? Getting me right?

2. Dont worry buddy. Im not looking at tech demos. I'm looking at Hellblade 2 and Flight Sim 2020, seeing revolutionary leap in fidelity and ambition that puts long awaited smile on my face, as I have been waiting for such jump-up in the industry for a very long time.

 

[Utherellus]

Well I mean Ratchet was designed around the PS5s I/O so you're right about the I/O affecting game design.

Sure. As a PC gamer, when I first launched Star Citizen back in 2017 (built around SATA SSDs without any hardware tricks and optimizations) experiencing such a colossal ambition in game design and tech, I was blown away.




Im pretty sure that both console will deliver jaw dropping ambitions in their first-party titles.

 

[MasterCornholio]

1. That narrative can be used for UE5 demo like a butter lol. So lets settle this - Will SFS demo fail to deliver same performance in real games like UE5 demo will fail? Or both demos will deliver similar performance in games? Getting me right?

2. Dont worry buddy. Im not looking at tech demos. I'm looking at Hellblade 2 and Flight Sim 2020, seeing revolutionary leap in fidelity and ambition that puts long awaited smile on my face, as I have been waiting for such jump-up in the industry for a very long time.

I know it's why I said tech demos don't reflect on what games will be like. Which you can see by comparing the flying section in UE5 to the flying section in Ratchet.

I know Flight Simulator was released on PC but I don't know if they ever said the Hellblade 2 demo was actual gameplay or realtime on the Series X.

Until we see an actual demonstration of the game we really don't know what it will look like. At least we have proof with Ratchet.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I know Flight Simulator was released on PC but I don't know if they ever said the Hellblade 2 demo was actual gameplay.

FS2020 is a server streaming game, needing at least 50Mbps internet (uncapped), 32GB RAM, 8GB VRAM to keep up. Very interesting and could see some games use that idea for unified playground and events.

 

[Utherellus]

I know it's why I said tech demos don't reflect on what games will be like. Which you can see by comparing the flying section in UE5 to the flying section in Ratchet.

I know Flight Simulator was released on PC but I don't know if they ever said the Hellblade 2 demo was actual gameplay or realtime on the Series X.

Until we see an actual demonstration of the game we really don't know what it will look like. At least we have proof with Ratchet.

emmm, you cant compare Ratchet to UE5 demo.. Different engines and working techniques...

Yes, Flight Sim was released on PC and is getting Series X port this summer. And we all know that it's quite a phenomenal game in terms of technological achievements.

Hellblade 2 was confirmed to be realtime by Epic.

 

[MasterCornholio]

emmm, you cant compare Ratchet to UE5 demo.. Different engines and working techniques...

Yes, Flight Sim was released on PC and is getting Series X port this summer. And we all know that it's quite a phenomenal game in terms of technological achievements.

Hellblade 2 was confirmed to be realtime by Epic.

Realtime on what though? I remember that something similar was said about the first Halo Infinite demo.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

emmm, you cant compare Ratchet to UE5 demo.. Different engines and working techniques...

Yes, Flight Sim was released on PC and is getting Series X port this summer. And we all know that it's quite a phenomenal game in terms of technological achievements.

Hellblade 2 was confirmed to be realtime by Epic.

On what hardware? Let's wait, because it's below regular 4K and prerendered at 24fps. You can download it and count frames.

 

[MasterCornholio]

On what hardware? Let's wait, because is below regular 4K and running at 24fps. You can download it and count frames.

That was my biggest issue with the demo and the fact that it wasn't gameplay. Makes me skeptical on what the final product will be like especially after the Halo Infinite engine demo.

Edit: This is the demo that I'm talking about.



Also the same could be said about HFW since they didn't really show any gameplay in the first trailer from what I can tell.

 

[Utherellus]

Realtime on what though? I remember that something similar was said about the first Halo Infinite demo.

Well uncle Phil on game awards said that it was captured on Series X.

In short, lets wait and see, yes.

But after UE5 demonstration, with its infinite detail and GI, its no brainer that NinjaTheory captured that trailer with UE5 quality render target in mind.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Well uncle Phil on game awards said that it was captured on Series X.

In short, lets wait and see, yes.

But after UE5 demonstration, with its infinite detail and GI, its no brainer that NinjaTheory captured that trailer with UE5 quality render target in mind.

That demo was done with a PS5 though.



I wouldn't use it to say it's representative of Hellblade 2 on the Series X.

Also the Hellblade 2 demo seems to exceed it in some ways. Like the character model for example.

 

[Utherellus]

That demo was done with a PS5 though.



I wouldn't use it to say it's representative of Hellblade 2 on the Series X.

Also the Hellblade 2 demo seems to exceed it in some ways. Like the character model for example.

Why not? All questions we had about Hellblade2's flawless geometry or textures or pop-in, was clearly explained in UE5 demo.


UE5 demo was not only about seamlessly flying at 350km/h. it was about greatly improved lighting and using Quixel Megascans to demonstrate "unlimited detail" like Hellblade trailer showed.

Maybe Xbox will not be able to stream UE5 as fast as PS5 but core innovations and visual step up will be same on Series X as on PS5.


About characters, UE featured amazing facial fidelity back in 2018. Only, hardware strong enough was needed to realize it. Until now.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Maybe Xbox will not be able to stream UE5 as fast as PS5 but core innovations and visual step up will be same on Series X as on PS5

I thought you said both I/O capabilities are the same? Which I think it's what this thread is about.

Regardless I really can't judge Hellblade 2 because it really hasn't been shown on the Series X yet. Which is basically the issue with that demo.

 

[Utherellus]

I thought you said both I/O capabilities are the same? Which I think it's what this thread is about.

Regardless I really can't judge Hellblade 2 because it really hasn't been shown on the Series X yet. Which is basically the issue with that demo.

no... I said they are trying to reach same goals with different routes of changing game design, stagnated and frozen for 2 generations already.

 

[MonarchJT]

can someone tell me how many GB will be the new Ratchet and clank...and how long is the game expected to be (at least 4 hours? of gameplay)and how long is the game expected to be (at least 4 hours? of gameplay)

 

[MasterCornholio]

no... I said they are trying to reach same goals of changing game design, stagnated and frozen for 2 generations already.

Did Microsoft say they wanted to do that with the I/O?

I only remember Cerny talking about it I'm not sure if Microsoft said they wanted to do the same.

 

[MasterCornholio]

can someone tell me how many GB will be the new Ratchet and clank...and how long is the game expected to be (at least 4 hours? of gameplay)and how long is the game expected to be (at least 4 hours? of gameplay)

They said it's a full length R@C title and they tend to last around 10 hours. As for the size is around 42GBs. I'm surprised you're even interested.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

They said it's a full length R@C title and they tend to last around 10 hours. As for the size is around 42GBs. I'm surprised you're even interested.

He's not interested, no details there. He threw that 4-hour remark to derail the thread, which is the length of the free game Astro's Playroom at 10.8GB.

 

[MonarchJT]

They said it's a full length R@C title and they tend to last around 10 hours. As for the size is around 42GBs. I'm surprised you're even interested.

i was asking to do some calculation about the speed of the i/o in correlation to game size / gameplay length in a game that seem to push it enough. btw i always owned Sony console although I preferred the x360 to the ps3, the One x to the ps4pro and the series x to the PS5

 

[MasterCornholio]

i was asking to do some calculation about the speed of the i/o in a game that seem to push it enough

Let me do the calculations for you.

Result



There's your proof.

 

[Playboi Carti]

The gen is just getting started, no point in doubting that both of these consoles are able to pull off visuals like Hellblade II in real-time, even during gameplay. And let's not act like we haven't seen a glimpse of what real next-gen games look like (Hellblade II, ARK 2, Rocksteady's Suicide Squad). Y'all that keep thinking that those type of visuals are pre-rendered or CG or whatever are in for a rude awakening (really hope they bring out the big next-gen guns next month).

Also no point in comparing the PS5 SSD to the XSX/XSS SSD, the Series consoles SSD is very fast and proportional to the rest of the system, but the PS5 SSD simply leaves it in the dust, it's so overkill that it's the most unbalanced part of the system, you can go ahead and ask any developer that has had the opportunity to work with both consoles.

 

[MonarchJT]

Let me do the calculations for you.

Result

but this applies to the initial loading time and there so far everything is okay ... streaming even if it is possible to do it 5gb / s it is impossible for the amount of data necessary to have a 6/8 hour long game. I repeat my position is not that the PS5 does not load that data ... it is that there will be no game capable of exploiting that, i / o if not for some bursts like the tunnel or something like that...because games will be around 100gb in size (ratchet seem to be the half of this )

ps. do you have any proof that you need 22gb / s to run that gif? lol

 

[MasterCornholio]

but this applies to the initial loading time and there so far everything is okay ... streaming even if it is possible to do it 5gb / s it is impossible for the amount of data necessary to have a 6/8 hour long game. I repeat my position is not that the PS5 does not load that data ... it is that there will be no game capable of exploiting that, i / o if not for some bursts like the tunnel or something like that...because games will be around 100gb in size (ratchet seem to be the half of this )

Why is it so hard to believe the game is coming out next month.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

it's so overkill that it's the most unbalanced part of the system

Making the data streaming of the whole 825GB SSD as fast as a single channel DDR4 RAM is an overkill?

Relax and let us enjoy "the overkill" and you enjoy your "balance". That's literally what UE5 PS5 gameplay is all about. Force yourself to watch 9min if you are even serious:

 

[MonarchJT]

Why is it so hard to believe the game is coming out next month.

you are not getting it ...i dont think ratchet moving 5gb / s during streams of unique data (apart from initial loads and during portal jumps)... probably LOTS less ... this is simply because the game would be tens of times bigger in GB. my position is exactly that of leviathan

 

[Playboi Carti]

Making the data streaming of the whole 825GB SSD as fast as a single channel DDR4 RAM is an overkill?

Relax and let us enjoy "the overkill" and you enjoy your "balance". That's literally what UE5 PS5 gameplay is all about. Force yourself to watch 9min if you are even serious:

Don't get it twisted, it's overkill but in a good way obviously, almost like a gen ahead of Xbox's.

 

[Utherellus]

Did Microsoft say they wanted to do that with the I/O?

I only remember Cerny talking about it I'm not sure if Microsoft said they wanted to do the same.

Its not about Microsoft or Sony.

Its about developers. And being developer automatically implies that you have correct priorities for next gen and have a dream about getting crazy I/O performance on consoles to finally unleash ambitions you always wanted to transform into reality.

Every developers wants that. They have asked for this for AGES. Does not matter if they are from MS or Sony.

So both companies listened. TBH, not like they didnt know themselves, heh.
Hardware engineers have been absolutely, deeply aware of I/O limitations of past 2 generations and they were preparing for this step-up way before me and you learned about all those buzzwords

 

[MasterCornholio]

you are not getting it ...i dont think ratchet moving 5gb / s during streams of unique data (apart from initial loads and during portal jumps)... probably LOTS less ... this is simply because the game would be tens of times bigger in GB. my position is exactly that of leviathan

Are you suggesting the PS5s I/O numbers are false?

 

[MasterCornholio]

Its not about Microsoft or Sony.

Its about developers. And being developer automatically implies that you have correct priorities for next gen and have a dream about getting crazy I/O performance on consoles to finally unleash ambitions you always wanted to transform into reality.

Every developers wants that. They have asked for this for AGES. Does not matter if they are from MS or Sony.

So both companies listened. TBH, not like they didnt know themselves, heh.
Hardware engineers have been absolutely, deeply aware of I/O limitations of past 2 generations and they were preparing for this step-up way before me and you learned about all those buzzwords

Seems like they went in two different directions with the I/O though. And the results don't seem the same to me so far.

 

[MonarchJT]

Are you suggesting the PS5s I/O numbers are false?

my gosh no...I'm suggesting that both i/o are exactly overkill for this gen because the size of the games make them so. Can you tell me how you imagine, how fast and when do you think 47gb of ratchet game data is loaded and at what speed ?

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Let's get back to the topic:





Short notes:

How Oodle Kraken and Oodle Texture supercharge the IO system of the Sony PS5​

Zip	1.64 to 1
Kraken	1.82 to 1
Zip + Oodle Texture	2.69 to 1
Kraken + Oodle Texture	3.16 to 1

How does Kraken do it?​

Kraken creates optimized streams for the decoder​

Kraken plus Oodle Texture can double previous compression ratios​

Full text:

How Oodle Kraken and Oodle Texture supercharge the IO system of the Sony PS5

The Sony PS5 will have the fastest data loading ever available in a mass market consumer device, and we think it may be even better than yo...

cbloomrants.blogspot.com

Updated the OP.

 

[MasterCornholio]

my gosh no...I'm suggesting that both i/o are exactly overkill for this gen because the size of the games make them so. Can you tell me how you imagine, how fast and when do you think 47gb of ratchet game data is loaded and at what speed ?

You know that's 47GBs of compressed data correct?

 

[Utherellus]

Seems like they went in two different directions with the I/O though. And the results don't seem the same to me so far.

If world-changing mechanics in Medium isn't enough for you and you insist on AAA first party examples, there are none at the moment. So lack of Xbox I/O showcase is not caused by technical problems or slow performance compared to competitor. It is caused by lack of AAA titles themselves. Sadly, we all have to wait until we start seeing Xbox powerhouse showcases.

Lets just wait for E3, hopefully we will get some juicy stuff from MS.

 

[MonarchJT]

You know that's 47GBs of compressed data correct?

of course ...so let be the best case and make it 141...then multiply by 5 .. thinking that many assets will be reused ...and we are around 700gb of virtual datas ..if the streaming of the game saturates the I / O of the console at 22gb/s you would have more or less 31 seconds of gameplay, where new things appear on the screen good luck to arrive at 10 hours of gameplay . Well it doesn't work like that but I hope you get the idea of what I'm talking about

 

[Zoro7]

of course ...so let be the best case and make it 141...then multiply by 5 .. thinking that many assets will be reused ...and we are around 700gb of virtual datas ..if the streaming of the game saturates the I / O of the console at 22gb/s you would have more or less 31 seconds of gameplay, where new things appear on the screen. Well it doesn't work like that but I hope you get the idea of what I'm talking about

Why so concerned? Let PS users believe what they want.

 

[MasterCornholio]

If world-changing mechanics in Medium isn't enough for you and you insist on AAA first party examples, there are none at the moment. So lack of Xbox I/O showcase is not caused by technical problems or slow performance compared to competitor. It is caused by lack of AAA titles themselves. Sadly, we all have to wait until we start seeing Xbox powerhouse showcases.

Lets just wait for E3, hopefully we will get some juicy stuff from MS.

The medium doesn't require an SSD.

Plus it runs two instances of the game at once which allows for the fast switching. I don't see how that's a tech demo for the I/O.

Don't worry I made that mistake before. I thought the Medium was doing the same thing as Ratchet when it's actually very different. It's still neat though.

 

[FatKingBallman]

On what hardware? Let's wait, because it's below regular 4K and prerendered at 24fps. You can download it and count frames.

Well uncle Phil on game awards said that it was captured on Series X.

In short, lets wait and see, yes.

But after UE5 demonstration, with its infinite detail and GI, its no brainer that NinjaTheory captured that trailer with UE5 quality render target in mind.

He didn't say that. Ever. He said it was captured in-engine or in-game

How the hell was Hellblade 2 captured on XSX in December 2019 when all games during conference in May 2020 were captured on damn PCs????

 

[MonarchJT]

Why so concerned? Let PS users believe what they want.

i do ..sure...but as leviathan said on twitter is basically an impassable physical limit to make both i / o overkill.

 

[Tommi84]

world-changing mechanics in Medium isn't enough for you

But Medium is perfectly playable on hdd and the ssd is RECOMMENDED and not REQUIRED to play the game though?

 

[MasterCornholio]

of course ...so let be the best case and make it 141...then multiply by 5 .. thinking that many assets will be reused ...and we are around 700gb of virtual datas ..if the streaming of the game saturates the I / O of the console at 22gb/s you would have more or less 31 seconds of gameplay, where new things appear on the screen good luck to arrive at 10 hours of gameplay . Well it doesn't work like that but I hope you get the idea of what I'm talking about

Well the goal was to store in memory the next second of gameplay. Which is why Cerny designed the PS5a I/O the way he did.

Edit: Holy hell at the double quote. Sorry guys.

 

[BootsLoader]

King of the castle