Support NeoGAF

[Hasney]

Both MS and Sony were in the position where they weren't able to afford taking the loss on the hardware. 2013 was a very different world than the PS3 and 360 launches.

 

[Samurai G0SU]

Omggg yessssss!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Neuromancer]

PS4 should have been more powerful and sold for 599 US dollars.

 

[RE_Player]

I hate that some people just buy into this idea that consoles should be iterative because hey - it works with cell phones. Jesus Christ.

It makes me think this is going to be the nail in the coffin for consoles.

The press were all aboard Microsoft's original DRM plans with a "Sony is going to do it too, it's inevitable" mentality. They were wrong on that front and I believe they will be wrong on the whole "Well it works for cell phones" line of reasoning.

 

[NinjamicWZ]

I hate that iterative consoles has to reckon with rageaholic, dad-at-christmas confusion and either be wrong and suck, or be right and fail.

 

[Jinfash]

The video was well made and bonus bit was definitely a smart move. It's getting people excited here.

 

[hesido]

No console is ever used to its "full extent". Neither the PS3 nor Xbox 360 were maxed out, even after an 8 year life span.

I understand that games generally get better over time within a generation, and that this generation has barely started when it comes to software (especially when it comes to exclusives), but we're in a different situation now.

In the past consoles have been both more powerful and exotic at launch. One of the main reasons there was such a discrepancy between early and late PS3 games, for example, is because of the cell. It wasn't anything like a typical PC processor, so as developers became more familiar with it, the games got better. The PS4 isn't like that. It's just straight up "budget" PC parts in an affordable box. Engines will improve, Sony will free up CPU cores and shrink the amount of RAM used by the OS, and there will be advancements made on the API front, but we're not going to go from Uncharted 1 to Uncharted 3. Unless we get a sequel, the odds of any game this generation looking better than The Order are pretty much zero. We've already seen what the PS4 is capable of when it comes to technical prowess.

Having said that, the time it takes to develop a game has increased drastically. We're 2.5 years into the generation and many of the best game developers are yet to release a single "next gen" game. If it takes 4 years to start getting proper games, releasing new consoles every 3 years is pointless. Which is why I agree with Kyle's assessment. This isn't Sony saying "Hey, we're moving to 3 year cycles now. Byeeee", it's Sony realizing that this gen is going to be around for a while, so they're going to need something with a little more staying power than the current PS4.

A lot of people don't like it right now, but it's a band-aid solution that's better off happening sooner than later.

Good points, about being maxed out. Max out in its true sense can never happen, but at least you could design a console game that keeps both the cpu and gpu busy >90% of the time, because that's a set target. On PC, you cannot possibly do that. With iterative consoles, this will be a thing of the past, meaning the newer consoles will never be fully utilized at least on one end.

I don't agree about the graphical jump being less between beginning and end of the console cycle though, devs are barely getting used to these very capable GPU's,
Some stuff like GPU driven graphics pipelines (freeing up to 50% CPU) with performance wins also on the GPU side, the 8xMSAA trick, Async compute should allow considerably enhanced graphics as we move along.

Big fan of sebbbi at beyond3d

 

[SeanTSC]

Good points, about being maxed out. Max out in its true sense can never happen, but at least you could design a console game that keeps both the cpu and gpu busy >90% of the time, because that's a set target. On PC, you cannot possibly do that. With iterative consoles, this will be a thing of the past, meaning the newer consoles will never be fully utilized at least on one end.

I don't agree about the graphical jump being less between beginning and end of the console cycle though, devs are barely getting used to these very capable GPU's,
Some stuff like GPU driven graphics pipelines (freeing up to 50% CPU) with performance wins also on the GPU side, the 8xMSAA trick, Async compute should allow considerably enhanced graphics as we move along.

Big fan of sebbbi at beyond3d

Here's the thing though - if there's identical/compatible hardware architecture and they keep going with iterative x86 platforms then all of those optimizations and performance enhancements will just keep carrying over. None of that work will be going to waste going from the PS4 to the PS4K. It's a completely different situation with Engine and Pipeline optimization than it was going from the PS1 -> PS2 -> PS3 -> PS4 than it is the PS4 -> PS4K.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Of those situations, I definitely don't want to get New 3DS'ed. Exclusive games plus games that run poorly on the old hardware. I don't want the new PS4 to become the dev target and then the rest of us get whatever a small team can port backwards to the old hardware.

 

[RerezDude]

Of those situations, I definitely don't want to get New 3DS'ed. Exclusive games plus games that run poorly on the old hardware. I don't want the new PS4 to become the dev target and then the rest of us get whatever a small team can port backwards to the old hardware.

It should be treated like:

-Devs work to make games run first on old hardware with larger audience.
-New hardware gets faster load times + some advanced abilities.

If it's done any other way it will cause issues.

 

[LordOfChaos]

It should be treated like:

-Devs work to make games run first on old hardware with larger audience.
-New hardware gets faster load times + some advanced abilities.

If it's done any other way it will cause issues.

It sure should be, though devs don't exactly have a flawless track record for trading off ambition for smooth gameplay. I think just by virtue of the hardware existing, some will want to make graphical showcases, and then if they're required to, hastily cull it back to run on the older one.

It's like how games that were built for the late life 7th gen consoles often looked and played better on the 7th gen than likely technically more advanced games targeting the 8th gen consoles that were culled back to also run on the 7th. Destiny on the PS3 looked worse than TLOU or GoW3 etc, Shadow of Mordor dipped to 15FPS, etc.

 

[deriks]

A thread for every new video?

 

[mrklaw]

A thread for every new video?

If it's good enough for jimquisition..

Seriously though - he just started up so it's still fresh with people, and the ps4k is a hot topic at the moment. Seems reasonable to have a thread for it.

 

[hesido]

Here's the thing though - if there's identical/compatible hardware architecture and they keep going with iterative x86 platforms then all of those optimizations and performance enhancements will just keep carrying over. None of that work will be going to waste going from the PS4 to the PS4K. It's a completely different situation with Engine and Pipeline optimization than it was going from the PS1 -> PS2 -> PS3 -> PS4 than it is the PS4 -> PS4K.

That's the bonus of going x86, and it will be applicable whether we have iterative consoles or not.. That was an answer to the assessment that there won't be big changes this time around (if we had a classic cycle). The fact that iterative consoles will not allow macro level optimizations based on how much cpu and gpu time you will have, will be gone. Whether you do same or more stuff faster through new techniques and API enhancements does not matter.

Potentially, you'll have the new hardware idling, and the older one bottlenecking somewhere.

 

[OdysseusVA]

It should be treated like:

-Devs work to make games run first on old hardware with larger audience.
-New hardware gets faster load times + some advanced abilities.

If it's done any other way it will cause issues.

So, like remasters 😊

A thread for every new video?

I'll be making another for his next video!

 

[GifGafIsTheBestGaf]

Lmao

 

[LordofPwn]

i now need

Spoiler

kyle bosman video game history anime

 

[pizzacat]

I need that Roundabout video stat

 

[Chuck]

I didn't realized there was a new thread for this vid. Anyway here's what I said in the other thread about the two eps.

I just watched the two episode so I'm going to comment on both.

I really don't think VR is a runaway success like Kyle seems to think. 'They can charge whatever and still be successful'? I don't think so. Of course they sold out of what they had. They only made a few thousand. Get some real sales numbers and you'll realize that they years away from any theoretical mainstream success.

The PS4K he's also missing the point on. The PS4 hasn't sold 40 million units to a chorus of people complaining "the graphics aren't good enough!". They've sold that many consoles because it's an easy to understand platform that will play 99% of new games, they'll look good, and that's it. The notion of an audience upset about graphical power is perceived and, in reality, non-existent.

If you're talking about devs not having enough juice, that's also ridiculous. They have a user base of 40 million to sell to. Why on earth would they want to make games exclusive or even benefitial to a new platform when that would cause them to lose money?

If you're talking about the NX as potential competition, you're just talking nonsense. Nintendo has competed with the other platforms in a direct way for years and years. Why would one believe they'd start now?

If you're taking about Sony as a corporation wanting to shove it's 4K initiative down the collective windpipes of consumers everywhere, you'd be exactly right. Sony sees this as an opportunity to use its most successful platform as a means to get 4K to be a thing. The problem is they're going to create market confusion and fragmentation as a result. Sucks for the PlayStation division, but they do what the boss says.

I did enjoy the show and will continue to watch.

 

[RagnarokX]

All his talk means is that they won't release an 'xbox one.5' but promote it as a new console that's super great and powerful instead of saying 'here is a slightly more powerful xbo'.

That's my take on it anyway.

Of course. Nintendo isn't calling NX the Wii U 1.5... at least I really hope they aren't.

They call it the XBox All Super, or XBALLS for short.

 

[Gurish]

Don't get on what Sony is paying the price for, the PS4 is a huge success and even technically games are running better than what they used to on PS3 and almost all of them are at 1080P so even visually the PS4 is able to keep up, and obviously better than how PS3 held the 720P, so I really don't see what he is talking about.

Sony isn't releasing PS4K because they feel like the PS4 is too weak, it's because they probably believe that the market is ready for iterative console, just like he said, this is how the tech world has been operateing for a couple of years now, people are more open to this model, Sony think it's a good time for them to catch up so they could make more money on their existing user base (hardcore fans will buy another console) as well as new ones, that's all, nothing to do with "regretting PS4 wasn't powerful", I think they are 100% happy about everything they have done with the PS4, including spec, price ect.

 

[Nafai1123]

Dead.

That bonus bit slayed.

 

[killertofu]

If Sony came out with a "PS4K" in 2013 but it would've ended up costing like $600...would people still be complaining about this? I'm pretty neutral on the situation but Bosman did have a good point about other tech cycles doing this sort of thing. Technology is moving quick. Sony isn't forcing you to do this, just like Apple doesn't force you to get a new iPhone every year even though its '2x the performance' or whatever.

 

[RagnarokX]

Don't get on what Sony is paying the price for, the PS4 is a huge success and even technically games are running better than what they used to on PS3 and almost all of them are at 1080P so even visually the PS4 is able to keep up, and obviously better than how PS3 held the 720P, so I really don't see what he is talking about.

Sony isn't releasing PS4K because they feel like the PS4 is too weak, it's because they probably believe that the market is ready for iterative console, just like he said, this is how the tech world operates for a couple of years now, people are more open to this model, Sony think it's a good time for them to catch up so they could make more money on their existing user base (hardcore fans will buy another console) as well as new ones, that's all, nothing to do with "regretting PS4 wasn't powerful", I think they are 100% happy about everything they have done with the PS4, including spec, price ect.

His argument is that PS4K should have been what the PS4 originally was but they softballed because of what happened last generation. That would have avoided this controversy, but on the flipside PS4 probably wouldn't have been as successful as it has been if it cost more at launch. It creates additional problems, too, where very few developers will actually utilize the power of the PS4K to its fullest because they want to maximize sales by not excluding regular PS4 owners.

 

[Elfforkusu]

I didn't realized there was a new thread for this vid. Anyway here's what I said in the other thread about the two eps.

re: VR success

It's easy to conflate success with "mainstream success", but VR doesn't actually need to be a mainstream hit to make lots of money. I don't know if this is what Bosman meant, but: there are quite a few sim racing wheels on amazon. They seem to be doing ok, and the VR enthusiast market will be larger than the sim racing market by at least an order of magnitude.

re: your NX competition comment

If they're really switching to x86, it's impossible to read it as anything other than 'honestly trying for third party support'. Whether they do so effectively is still a question (I expect failure), but it's not nonsense to say they're competition when they'd be providing almost the same hardware, but newer and faster.

 

[LordOfChaos]

If Sony came out with a "PS4K" in 2013 but it would've ended up costing like $600...would people still be complaining about this? I'm pretty neutral on the situation but Bosman did have a good point about other tech cycles doing this sort of thing. Technology is moving quick. Sony isn't forcing you to do this, just like Apple doesn't force you to get a new iPhone every year even though its '2x the performance' or whatever.

iPhones are a broad usage item, consoles are dedicated (mostly) to gaming. If you just check Facebook and text, no, iPhone upgrades don't impact you. If you play whatever passes for high end mobile games, they do tend to target the n-1 generation at least, so further generations do make your device less of the target spec.

 

[Labrynian Rebel]

Don't worry NX, Fable Legends Guy can probably get you a loan so you can afford another training montage.

 

[Visceir]

The video was well made and bonus bit was definitely a smart move. It's getting people excited here.

Anime, cats and console wars. It encompasses everything gaf loves.

 

[R_thanatos]

Anime, cats and console wars. It encompasses everything gaf loves.

Gaf loves cats and anime ?

j/k

 

[Labrynian Rebel]

I need to watch that anime, although I heard the Mother 3 episode didn't get released stateside because of epileptic seizures.

Glorious.

 

[jnWake]

Of course. Nintendo isn't calling NX the Wii U 1.5... at least I really hope they aren't.

They call it the XBox All Super, or XBALLS for short.

Or maybe the XBox One Remastered, or XBoner for short.

 

[Gurish]

His argument is that PS4K should have been what the PS4 originally was but they softballed because of what happened last generation. That would have avoided this controversy, but on the flipside PS4 probably wouldn't have been as successful as it has been if it cost more at launch. It creates additional problems, too, where very few developers will actually utilize the power of the PS4K to its fullest because they want to maximize sales by not excluding regular PS4 owners.

How do we know it would have avoided this controversy? they might still release a more powerful console, only this time it would be more powerful than the PS4K.

Besides, the PS4K is rumored to be as powerful as an 970 (*2 more powerful than current PS4), it's much more powerful that anything that was available back than, so even if PS4 was more powerful, it couldn't be as powerful as the PS4K.

 

[Killer Queen]

Because that's clearly not how it works? And I get plenty of games every year from various developers and teams. Engines get reused and refined. From small developers to big developers. I buy lots of Ubisoft and Tecmo-Koei/Gust games and short cycles won't affect them one bit with x86 hardware and forwards and backwards compatible systems and how Engine Scaling works. Even FROM software is putting out games regularly and a 4 year cycle wouldn't change that.

You know it takes From roughly 3-4 years to make each game right? DS3 production started shortly after DS2 launch and Bloodborne started production a few years before the ps4 launch. If you're just reusing engines and assets then why do you need a new console every 4 years? The jump would be small on the hardware and games side. Why not just build a PC if you want to be on the cutting edge and upgrade every 4 years?

 

[Spyder_Monkey]

Does anybody really assume the NX is going to be that powerful?

 

[SeanTSC]

You know it takes From roughly 3-4 years to make each game right? DS3 production started shortly after DS2 launch and Bloodborne started production a few years before the ps4 launch. If you're just reusing engines and assets then why do you need a new console every 4 years? The jump would be small on the hardware and games side. Why not just build a PC if you want to be on the cutting edge and upgrade every 4 years?

Because I don't want to build a PC. I want to spend $400-500 on a single box every 4-5 years and hook it up to my TV and leave it there and be done with it. I don't want to open my case up and take old parts out and put new ones in and deal with all that shit. I want my games to look better and run better and have new stuff, but more powerful consoles is as far as I'm willing to care about it and I don't want to fuck with settings and all that jazz.

You can want iterative and more powerful hardware and better graphics without making the full blown jump to "lol just upgrade your PC." I say this as someone who can put together PC components like they're simply Legos (which is really not how it is, as much as we like to say it). I did that shit enough while I was neck deep in MMOs and I just don't want to do it anymore.

I can afford to upgrade a console every 4 years and it's easier for me to deal with. The less I have to deal with, the better. Sometimes people just want simple. The whole "just go PC!" mentality is absurd to me.

 

[Napalm_Frank]

Does anybody really assume the NX is going to be that powerful?

More powerful than PS4? Sure.

 

[Deleted member 465307]

Does anybody really assume the NX is going to be that powerful?

A recent statement by a GAFfer who has been reliable in the past with previous Nintendo hardware leaks suggests that at least the CPU is beyond what the PS4 and X1 have. However, I was also surprised by Kyle's assumption, as I could still see it aiming for X1 power at best. It's a nice thought, to think that the NX could be squarely between PS4/X1 and PS4k/X1.5, since it would likely bode well for third-party viability, but I don't know if there's any substantial reason to believe that. It's my ideal of where I'd like it to end up, but I'm not counting on it.

 

[udivision]

Does anybody really assume the NX is going to be that powerful?

A few months ago, "lol, of course not."

Now... I'm not so sure. It's not going to be able to compete with 9th gen consoles, but it should go to toe with the current gen ones.

EDIT: And you've got me thinking about the pricing dynamic... hmm....

 

[SeanTSC]

Does anybody really assume the NX is going to be that powerful?

More powerful than the XB1? I god damned hope so. I can't imagine it not being at least that. And I sure as hell hope it's more powerful than the PS4 considering how much the PS4 struggles with just 1080p/30 most of the time. I'll grudgingly accept it if it's enough to be a 100% rock solid 1080p/30 machine, but I'd prefer it to be a 1080p/60 machine.

 

[double jump]

I usually don't care for the Bosman but this video was really decent.
I'm still peeved by ps4k though.

 

[LordOfChaos]

More powerful than the XB1? I god damned hope so. I can't imagine it not being at least that.

See, I'm super careful with this now, because there were pages and pages of Cafe threads that many seemed to agree that 600Gflops on the GPU would be the absolute minimum, that they simply couldn't order a part under 300Gflops, etc...Then the slow realization in the Wii U GPU thread, 160 shaders under 200Gflops...

Honestly if Nintendo broke 1Tflop and ditched those PowerPC 750 cores for maybe A72s I'd be on my merry way

 

[J-Rzez]

The tension between the NX and the PS4k kinda bums me out.

I want the NX to have a deserved spot light for a good while.

Do we know if either of these command a "deserved spotlight" yet? Serious question. Especially NX. This year is and interesting mess. Between the consoles, VR, TVs, and especially the stupid videocards, its shaping up to be a messy year for tech.

 

[R_thanatos]

More powerful than PS4? Sure.

If it isn't , nearly 3 years after the PS4 launch then nintendo will have FAILED , like very hard

 

[QuickSilverD]

If it isn't , nearly 3 years after the PS4 launch then nintendo will have FAILED , like very hard

what if they go back to a 250$ price point?

 

[Killer Queen]

Because I don't want to build a PC. I want to spend $400-500 on a single box every 4-5 years and hook it up to my TV and leave it there and be done with it. I don't want to open my case up and take old parts out and put new ones in and deal with all that shit. I want my games to look better and run better and have new stuff, but more powerful consoles is as far as I'm willing to care about it and I don't want to fuck with settings and all that jazz.

You can want iterative and more powerful hardware and better graphics without making the full blown jump to "lol just upgrade your PC." I say this as someone who can put together PC components like they're simply Legos (which is really not how it is, as much as we like to say it). I did that shit enough while I was neck deep in MMOs and I just don't want to do it anymore.

I can afford to upgrade a console every 4 years and it's easier for me to deal with. The less I have to deal with, the better. Sometimes people just want simple. The whole "just go PC!" mentality is absurd to me.

Can't always have the best of both worlds. The mentality that consoles should be iterative is equally absurd to me because it starts to defeat the purpose of consoles in the first place. If you want iterative consoles that's fine but it just sounds like your preferences are better suited to PC whether you want to hear that or not. And there's nothing stopping you from building a PC connecting it to your TV and leaving it there until you buy a new GPU in 3 years and rinse and repeat. I'm not sure how iteratve consoles are more simple than the current model and devs seem to also agree, at least over at Bioware. But go each their own.

 

[SeanTSC]

Can't always have the best of both worlds. The mentality that consoles should be iterative is equally absurd to me because it starts to defeat the purpose of consoles in the first place. If you want iterative consoles that's fine but it just sounds like your preferences are better suited to PC whether you want to hear that or not. And there's nothing stopping you from building a PC connecting it to your TV and leaving it there until you buy a new GPU in 3 years and rinse and repeat. I'm not sure how iteratve consoles are more simple than the current model and devs seem to also agree, at least over at Bioware. But go each their own.

I'm not asking for the best of both worlds though - I just want more frequent updates and I don't think that 4 years is unreasonable for console upgrades. 3 is definitely pushing it, but I'm okay with it this time. Personally, I feel that 6+ year cycles is an unreasonably long time for tech upgrades. 7-8 years was some real bullshit.

 

[AstroNut325]

If it isn't , nearly 3 years after the PS4 launch then nintendo will have FAILED , like very hard

I really don't think you're going to get anything more powerful than the current iPhone and AppleTV.

 

[BarringGaffner]

I just don't understand how a machine rumoured to have 2x the GPU power will run games at 4x+ the resolution and still run games better (higher settings and better framerate?). Is there more to this I am missing?

 

[Napalm_Frank]

what if they go back to a 250$ price point?

Budget console is problematic because X1 and PS4 will probably be very cheap this holiday and beyond. Bosman talked about this in his bundle video, what can NX do when X1 and PS4 come out with 299 including a bundled game? 50$ less is not enough to sway anyone, Wii U is in that situation now. If they want to diffrenciate they need to go high, not low (I'm not talking 599 tier doe ).

If Nintendo really wanted to put their chips on a budget console I'd say go all the way with Vita TV approach but with actual marketing and smart services and not an afterthought. 99-150$ console and 199$ handheld, every game crossbuy/compatible with each. Pay monthly subscription to access a huge library of classic NES-64 games.

 

[Tertullian]

I just don't understand how a machine rumoured to have 2x the GPU power will run games at 4x+ the resolution and still run games better (higher settings and better framerate?). Is there more to this I am missing?

It won't play games at 4k. It won't be anywhere near powerful enough to play AAA games acceptably at 4k. It will play games slightly better at 1080p, and play other media (i.e. movies) at 4k.