I don't think i've seen anyone claim in here that it affects people equally, just that it can exist.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
LOreal Drops Transgender Model After All White People Racism Post
- Thread starter DogDude
- Start date
I don't think i've seen anyone claim in here that it affects people equally, just that it can exist.
Phawx
Member
I think the problem with this wording is that there are Europeans who are oblivious to US racism issues. That is to say, Europeans have far more of a shades-of-white racism issue.
Additionally, the US-centrist wording tends to be a pet peeve to Europeans who hate that Americans *think* that their problems/ideas/things are globally representative.
To say nothing of everything east of Europe as well.
IrishNinja
Member
all day, every day
Some Nobody
Junior Member
I'm honestly not sure how to feel about this. 'Cause that second statement is on point. That first statement was a bit...over-emotional, perhaps? I'm not really comfortable painting a group of people with a broad brush like that, even if I AM beyond tired of people spending more time defending the rights of Nazis to tell folks who look like me we aren't welcome here, while simultaneously tearing down anti-fascists.
And yeah I know, "fuck tone policing" but...really tho? When someone tells me some shit that's right but they do it like an asshole, I'm prolly going to ignore them at least half the time. Next time don't approach me like a dick. Goes all the way back to when your parents told you some shit but they came at you the wrong way. Ain't nobody trying to hear all that yelling. You only did it 'cause they threatened you with violence or some shit lol.
I just hope this woman finds an opportunity just as good. She's very beautiful and should be modeling for someone.
And yeah I know, "fuck tone policing" but...really tho? When someone tells me some shit that's right but they do it like an asshole, I'm prolly going to ignore them at least half the time. Next time don't approach me like a dick. Goes all the way back to when your parents told you some shit but they came at you the wrong way. Ain't nobody trying to hear all that yelling. You only did it 'cause they threatened you with violence or some shit lol.
I just hope this woman finds an opportunity just as good. She's very beautiful and should be modeling for someone.
Watching the C4 interview with Munroe and I agree with her entirely.
There's something about expecting a trasngender person of colour in 2017 to be careful with their reactions to overt racism that is pretty disgusting.
She's right, white people /are/ complicit in racism. Some of us try to unpick all the racist shit that's been installed in us since day 0, and some of us actively engage and attempt to address the imbalance/bigotry, but I think there's a reality in the idea that even those of us who are allies are complicit because we're part of the numbers stacked against them and we enjoy our huge privilege on a daily basis.
There's nothing horrible about that idea, or unfair.
There's something about expecting a trasngender person of colour in 2017 to be careful with their reactions to overt racism that is pretty disgusting.
She's right, white people /are/ complicit in racism. Some of us try to unpick all the racist shit that's been installed in us since day 0, and some of us actively engage and attempt to address the imbalance/bigotry, but I think there's a reality in the idea that even those of us who are allies are complicit because we're part of the numbers stacked against them and we enjoy our huge privilege on a daily basis.
There's nothing horrible about that idea, or unfair.
Sony
Nintendo
Yup it's L'Oreal's fault she chose to adress white people, yes ALL white people. I don't even know what she's saying? L'Oreal shouldn't have asked her to model? It's such a weird sequence of tweets that is so, so wrong.
Huh? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but those tweets are on fucking point.
They are indeed guilty of this.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Which tweet said that?
The old saying remains true: play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
They made an idiotic, racist comment and as a result lost their job.
How many people on GAF would be complaining if this was some old white man making racist statements about black people?
I believe the term is that they would be "getting dragged" and rightfully so.
"They", "their".... lmfao.
SHE didn't make an idiotic comment, she made a completely honest statement.
The problem is white fragility, not her hatred of white people.
Orniletter
Banned
Her original post was not ok. Just because caucasians are so privilaged to almost never be on the receiving end of racism does not excuse her poor wording. The length some on the extreme left are trying to go here to excuse and recontextualize her clearly inappropriate first post is slightly concerning.
You just shouldn't stereotype an entire ethnicity like that.
Her heart is clearly in the right place and I agree with most of what she's saying, but " Yes ALL white people".is not the right way to go about it.
You just shouldn't stereotype an entire ethnicity like that.
Her heart is clearly in the right place and I agree with most of what she's saying, but " Yes ALL white people".is not the right way to go about it.
Sony
Nintendo
"By choosing her as the face of their campaign and giving her that platform, they exposed her to whole new sections of society.."
I agree. L'Oreal is a big brand wtih wide exposure. That means she got exposed to a new section of society, surely.
"Then they succumbed to a media smear campaign, publicly condemning her for her activism. Literally her life's work."
This is BS. Her activisism was though racism. She adressed ALL white people. Emphasis on ALL, she even wrote it in caps. L'Oreal condemned her racism, not her activism.
"Now she's receiving transphobic and racist abuse from those very people L'Oréal chose to expose her to."
So.. L'Oreal shouldn't have made her a model for them? Is Nasakin saying that trans people should be protectd from society or something?
"They've not merely robbed her of a career opportunity. They opened the floodgates to unparalleled levels of abuse and harassment."
Nasakin is blaming L'Oreal for the reaction Munroe got to her racist, ALL white people statement.
"This is a transphobic and racist act in and of itself."
So... according to Nasaking.. Having her model for L'Oreal caused her to be exposed to a new section of society, that exposure opened floodgates to unparalleled levels of abuse and harassment, which is a transphobic act and racist act in itself. So giving Munroe a platform was racist and transphobic is what she's saying.
Stop being so damned fragile. Those tweets are the truth.
You're wrong, and in a pretty gross way.
It seems like they're condemning her for saying all white people are racist. Working for a good cause doesn't absolve you from the specific acts you do towards that cause.
Edit: Never mind, I just reread the OP, and she doesn't actually say all white people are racist. I was conflating what she said with the title of thread, which is meaningfully different.
Why is L'Oreal guilty of this? So they shouldn't have hired her to begin with? Or kept her after making that wild accusation against a large part of L'Oreal's customer base and workforce?
Now accusing L'Oreal of being racist and transphobic because they try to distance themselves from that person - those tweets are just crazy. The other tweets are true though: companies are in for the profit and that's their main goal. To achieve that, they hire people that can also reach out to new audiences. But if they hire you and you think you can make such wild accusations of that company's other customers without being fired, then you are naive. But there's nothing racist and transphobic to a dismissal in that case.
Zakalwe said:
Why don't you try to put in an argument into your post? "Stop being so damned fragile." is not really disproving any of his points, neither is saying "you're wrong".
NoblesseOblige
Banned
So your answer to my question is "they didn't, I just can't read/comprehend".
The arguments have already been made, I mean the tweets are 100% on point and I'd just be repeating myself by deconstructing all this white fragility.
She's talking of systemic racism, and all white people are a part of that.
Her follow up post shows her having an understanding of the situation that is far beyond anything criticasters can even dream off. That absolves her of any doubt.
You have people who return after a controversial statement with a response that shows they are ignorant and then you have cases like this were the response show they are actually more informed than you would presume.
IdreamofHIME
Member
She's not some meek little lamb, she's popular and well known for her in your face activism. Someone at L'Oréal should have known this when they picked her up as a face of their brand.
I personally don't agree with her statement or her follow up, but that's beside the point. The onus was on L'Oréal to have known she was capable of making statements that don't fit their brand and have a plan for it..
..But they didn't. It's obvious she was picked to appeal to a certain demographic by a bunch of suits who fed some data into a machine and her name popped out.
This incompetence has left her to be fed to the sharks. It's disgusting.
And even if we say her initial comment was extreme and emotional (it wasn't, it's about whiteness and systemic racism which is utterly real), I'd like to think a TRANSGENDER PERSON OF COLOUR can be forgiven for being a little extreme and emotional in the current climate.
"LOréal should have known they weren't suitable and not hired them!"
Perhaps Bergdorf themselves should have done some research and noted that they wouldn't have been a good fit for the company?
"Transgendered and a person of colour!!"
So that means they are immune to criticism?
People in this thread acting like Bergdorf either has learning difficulties or is 7 years old...
The reality is they knew exactly what they were saying and backpedalled (including deleting the original post) when shit got real.
Perhaps Bergdorf themselves should have done some research and noted that they wouldn't have been a good fit for the company?
"Transgendered and a person of colour!!"
So that means they are immune to criticism?
People in this thread acting like Bergdorf either has learning difficulties or is 7 years old...
The reality is they knew exactly what they were saying and backpedalled (including deleting the original post) when shit got real.
Stop calling her "they".
Sony
Nintendo
If your role in discussions like this is to drive-by, say I'm wrong, without any interaction, then it's not a dicussion, it's judging. I rather you don't adress me if you don't want to engage with my arguments. It would be better to your cause if you would provide counter arguments. This poster for example, this poster gets it:
Even then, it's also plausible to say: this is L'Oreal, these are our values, we want you to model for us but as long as you're a model for L'Oreal, you should adhere to our code of conduct. In your face activism =/= racism. Like it or not. adressing all white people is racist.
It's that simple.
Boy Wander
Member
If I'm interpreting your comments correctly, you're saying that all white people have a responsibility to ensure that racism is tackled. The fragility part I guess comes from white people who would automatically assume that you're saying all white folks are racists. In which case I'd agree with your points.
Pay attention now, Sony. I know you struggle in threads like these, but it's not difficult friend:
Firstly, my initial post summed up my thoughts.
Secondly, the tweets have said it all concisely and anything I write now will just be rephrasing that.
This kind of lazy deflection you're obsessed with is really not helping anyone.
Yes.
We're not all racists, but we are all complicit in racism. Even if we're allies and activists we make up the numbers that are stacked against POC, we benefit/have benefited from our huge privilege, and as much as racism may pain us we will /never/ feel it's true weight. The weight of an entire fucking history built on it.
Part of our responsibility as decent fucking human beings is to acknowledge this complicity and take ownership of it.
Sony
Nintendo
The only reason I'm struggling in threads like these is because there is a lack of discussion in threads like these where you're being judged in threads like these. And I'll rephase again, that whole series of tweets leaves out the crucial factor that is the racist remarkt adressing all white people. If you ignore this part, then your argument falls flat. And your initial post was beore #756, that posted the images of the tweets. I'm talking about the series of tweets.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Seems with reading comprehension you need to learn what a drive-by is.
I asked you a very simple question, you failed miserably to answer it. You're the one who has failed to defend your initial statement.
Mate, your posts are clear as day and ripe for judgement. your fragility is absurd and your continued defense of it ITT and others is just ugly.
There is a discussion, and you're being called out for your BS.
"white fragility"
"arguments have already been made"
Ok I get it, you really don't have any argument to make here.
Her initial statement is not extreme? What a person says does not absolve that person from the consequences, regardless of whether that person faces systematic discrimination herself. Saying that all white people are racists because they benefit from systematic biases/discrimination in society does not automatically make them racists. Perhaps you should look up the definition of "racism" and "racist" if you believe so.
Only if you cover your eyes and don't read my posts... which are happily condensed to a single page for your reading ease.
Don't fall off that wall, Humpty, you'll never make it.
Where does she say all white people are racist, though? I don't see it.
Why are you being so belligerent?
For a start most transgendered people prefer being called they if you don't know their chosen gender pronoun - I've been told that many times by my transgendered friends. I'm not making any assumptions.
Secondly show them some respect: Bergdorf isn't a child and is absolutely in control of their actions. You're acting like they're a 10 year old that is too immature to control what they say.
Who are you to make assumptions about their mental state? You do not speak for them. We judge people by their actions and words, not what we think is going on in their heads.
Because I find your tone and words utterly disgusting and I've explained why.
And yes, the "they" thing could be that, or it could be a the other thing.
I didn't once suggest Bergdof was not in control, she said what she meant and I believe she spoke the truth. It's a real fucking shame she's being told her stance against systemic racism and the white fragility that supports it is being seen as too hot to handle when her skin tone and gender were all to easy to hold up as a marketing ploy.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Why even respond to Yeoman. Guy only shows up in threads like these to spew garbage. He's inactive in any other types of threads. It's clear he has a personal investment in opposing the 'SJW agenda' and is probably just some alt/sock-puppet.
"We are all complicit in racism"
Do one.
And don't come back telling me to elaborate and make a structured response. That kind of ridiculous statement doesn't deserve one.
As white people we very much are.
If we can take ownership of that then perhaps we truly can become meaningful allies.
it's in the op of the thread
Sony
Nintendo
The series of tweets blames L'Oreal for what happened to Munroe. I said "Yup it's L'Oreal's fault she chose to adress white people, yes ALL white people." Inplying the reason why she got in trouble is because she made the racist remarkt. This is my argument. Then I adressed the series of tweets explaining that Skywalker failed to adress her racism in her rant.
The fact that I had to spell this out for you is really ironic given your "reading comprehension" advocacy.
Again, tell me where I'm wrong, not that I'm wrong.
It doesn't seem to be in the tweet quoted in the OP.
Complicity doesn't denote explicit intent. She was calling us on our whiteness and privilege and how we're a part of the game against them just by existing, she wasn't calling us active nazis.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
The series of tweets not once said or implied L'Oreal's was at fault for her making her statement. It's not hard to admit you were wrong.
L'Oreal chose her despite their full understanding of her views and past actions/words.
They chose her to be the face of their brand to reap the points of her activism and very existence as a transgender POC, but when they realised the backlash wasn't worth it they withdrew.
They put her in the firing line to exploit her position, then handed out more guns when they realised she was a problem
You're welcome. ^
IrishNinja
Member
well said - thanks for this, following that account now
You really don't want to or know how to engage in a discussion, do you?
Did you read the OP? That's the reason L'Oreal parted ways with her:
"Honestly I don't have energy to talk about the racial violence of white people any more. Yes ALL white people"
Either way, just going by this thread alone she has done a huge disservice to her very valid cause with her initial statement. If you want to fight systematic discrimination, you would want to get as many people behind that cause as possible, not alienate people by making wild accusations. Through her position at L'Oreal she could've even had a larger audience to direct attention to these issues, but instead this happened now.
You know, perhaps I could be more diplomatic in the face of the kind of white fragility that helps support this kind of bigoty, perhaps that would ultimately be more productive.
I'm not that good of a person though, Shiggy my dear, ask that of better people.
You sure about that?
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=242642142
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=239471591Yeoman said:
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=235085593Yeoman said:
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=242641995Yeoman said:
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=231990598Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew said:
These are just some quick soundbites.Teeuwen said:
I call racism out wherever I see it and in this case Bergdorf is the racist.
The fact that you don't like that I don't make excuses for any form of racism does not make me a "sock-puppet".
Also: isn't accusing someone of being a sock puppet potentially a bannable offence?
Similar threads
- Locked