Support NeoGAF

[notworksafe]

Let me guess? GAF is so bigoted against bigoted people right?!

Edit: You wouldn't happen to have example of these so called bigotry allowed groups?

Fat people, white males, anyone who disagrees with the majority opinion.

EDIT: Religious types as well.

 

[Circle Jerk]

Holy shit this thread is a minefield.

abstract alien was banned for THAT? :/

Insinuating that someone who had a gender realignment surgery isn't really a woman is a pretty good reason for being banned.

 

[MYE]

He was referring to people as "it".

hmm, I missed that part.

 

[hoos30]

Looking over their portfolio since The Matrix, her gender is really the least of their concerns. Good for her, but the hot pink gotta go.

 

[BocoDragon]

Looking over their portfolio since The Matrix, her gender is really the least of their concerns. Good for her, but the hot pink gotta go.

But Speed Racer.

 

[jimi_dini]

I think a lot of the problems in this thread is the lack of a differentiation between Sex and Gender.

In my first language there is no differentiation between those two. So I have a few problems with that as well.

Still saying that she is not a woman is just trolling. She definitely looks like a woman now. And mentally she was probably a woman since birth. So why say that? The banned junior, well I could at least assume that he meant it differently and worded it badly. A regular since 2007? No, can't think of any defense for that one. I really wonder, if abstract alien was perm'd. I also have to wonder, if this was account suicide.

 

[RiccochetJ]

Looking over their portfolio since The Matrix, her gender is really the least of their concerns. Good for her, but the hot pink gotta go.

Speed Racer is a great movie

 

[Roger Danish]

And I see what you are doing as well.

You've figured out my agenda! I guess now I can't call out any poster's ignorant statements for fear that people will accuse me of having undue influence on the mods when that poster coincidentally ends up banned.

white males

 

[Milchjon]

In my first language there is no differentiation between those two. So I have a few problems with that as well.

Still saying that she is not a woman is just trolling. She definitely looks like a woman now. And mentally she was probably a woman since birth. So why say that? The banned junior, well I could at least assume that he meant it differently and worded it badly. A regular since 2007? No, can't think of any defense for that one. I really wonder, if abstract alien was perm'd. I also have to wonder, if this was account suicide.

I'm actually wondering whether the word "it" was supposed to refer to her. If it was, it's inexcusable.

 

[Callo Merlose]

Wasn't there a character in one of the Matrix movies that was supposed to be a male in Zion, but a female in the Matrix? Switch was the name, I think, but the male in Zion part was changed.

That seems cool, but I don't think so.

http://matrix.wikia.com/wiki/Switch

 

[jimi_dini]

I'm actually wondering whether the word "it" was supposed to refer to her. If it was, it's inexcusable.

If you are talking about my "it", I meant the junior's posting of course. Like I said, english is not my first language. And using google translate into my language returns the sentence that I meant to say. If it was wrong, I'm sorry.

 

[fireside]

transgendereds

Try not to say this; it’s demeaning. The proper term would be “transgender people”.

Also, transgender does not need an “ed” added to it. It’s not a transgendered person, but a transgender person.

 

[Milchjon]

If you are talking about my "it", I meant the junior's posting of course. Like I said, english is not my first language. And using google translate into my language returns the sentence that I meant to say. If it was wrong, I'm sorry.

Nah, I'm talking about abstract alien, of course. English isn't my first language either ;-)

 

[Xeke]

In my first language there is no differentiation between those two. So I have a few problems with that as well.

Still saying that she is not a woman is just trolling. She definitely looks like a woman now. And mentally she was probably a woman since birth. So why say that? The banned junior, well I could at least assume that he meant it differently and worded it badly. A regular since 2007? No, can't think of any defense for that one. I really wonder, if abstract alien was perm'd. I also have to wonder, if this was account suicide.

I'd never call somebody something than other what they themselves identify as, but if I were to be playing the devils advocate a pretty solid argument could be made that biologically she is still a Male despite her outward gender being that of a female. But I think it's a silly argument as there are very few instances where it would matter.

Should a man who has gender reassignment surgery be able to participate in womens sports as the individuals masculine features may very well give them an advantage? It is what plays out in a Futurama episode...I think that is where I got the thought from...

 

[WanderingWind]

The nuances of linguistic differences is lost on quite a few people. Would it be so difficult to explain that in English, certain pronouns can be offensive to transgendered people? What does insta-shaming somebody who uses the wrong one accomplish?

Again, there is plenty of actual bigotry to attack. Placing any poor sap who is unaware of the offense or is ESL in the crossfire isn't doing anybody any favors whatsoever.

 

[Sibylus]

I actually agree with you somewhat. (Well, the first line, not the second.)

There are some pretty terrible things said about trans people in threads that pop up on here, but unfortunately, sometimes the pro-trans side doesn't really do the argument any favors with the way responses are dealt out. Sometimes, what should be "let me try to make you understand why you shouldn't feel that way" turns into "let me punch you in the face and say how terrible you are for feeling that way"—and people who get punched in the face and told they're wrong aren't always willing to listen to the other side's opinions.

It can be hard to tell, for example, when somebody is using pronouns incorrectly because they honestly don't fully understand the topic, and when they're just being an ass about it. It's not fair to jump on everybody equally, though. The whole transgender thing can be very hard to understand, and somebody not understanding due to lack of exposure doesn't make them a bad person.

At the same time, you also can't totally blame the pro-trans side. Every time the topic comes it, threads can easily fall back into the same arguments over and over. So, after a while, it can feel very frustrating and defeating to have to start the exact same argument over from scratch for the 100th time.

Conversations like these should be less about stupid bickering, and more over spreading awareness. When we decide to break ourselves into "sides" in threads like these, then the potential for something good to come out of the conversation is automatically reduced.

While I agree that education and discussion is vital, tone is less important than approaching the argument seriously, and respecting the other party enough to earnestly argue with them. A placid poster isn't necessarily a more effective educator than one who approaches the topic with passion and zeal, because even words laced with honey won't feed those who've closed their mouths. As this topic goes, two people were piled on, and neither entered in with what appeared to be anything approaching a desire to add to a productive discussion.

 

[ghostmind]

I think they are right though - this movie is going to have a massive uphill battle to win its audience. When a 5+ minute trailer is required to begin to understand it, a lot of people are not going to have the patience with the full feature. I hope it is a good movie, but I'm concerned it may be the end of the Wachowski's as directors with the power to get major films made.

 

[jimi_dini]

Nah, I'm talking about abstract alien, of course. English isn't my first language either ;-)

Oh lol
I didn't notice that he said "it" instead of "he" or "she". The post is even worse than I thought.

 

[lexi]

To those saying you've known for 9 years or however many years, good for you! This has been the first time where Lana is unabashedly and publicly a woman, and being credited as such, thus it's considered a big deal.

 

[thatbox]

The nuances of linguistic differences is lost on quite a few people. Would it be so difficult to explain that in English, certain pronouns can be offensive to transgendered people? What does insta-shaming somebody who uses the wrong one accomplish?

Again, there is plenty of actual bigotry to attack. Placing any poor sap who is unaware of the offense or is ESL in the crossfire isn't doing anybody any favors whatsoever.

Nobody who simply got pronouns wrong innocently has been shamed. Calling trans people "gross" or "it" or "not actually" their true gender hasn't gone over well, thankfully.

 

[Gaborn]

I'd never call somebody something than other what they themselves identify as, but if I were to be playing the devils advocate a pretty solid argument could be made that biologically she is still a Male despite her outward gender being that of a female. But I think it's a silly argument as there are very few instances where it would matter.

Should a man who has gender reassignment surgery be able to participate in womens sports as the individuals masculine features may very well give them an advantage? It is what plays out in a Futurama episode...I think that is where I got the thought from...

 

[NewGamePlus]

That seems cool, but I don't think so.

http://matrix.wikia.com/wiki/Switch

Straight from Belinda McClory

 

[Half and half]

Meh.

 

[Emitan]

Straight from Belinda McClory

Wish it had stayed that way

Meh.

?

 

[MNC]

What's with her teeth?

 

[Xeke]

And? I don't know if you're trying to disprove anything I said...I am simply stating that that one line from your image that she would still be biologically a male based on Y chromosome, prostate, etcs...

I'm not debating her Gender at all, she is a female.

 

[freenudemacusers]

This is actually very informative, thanks.

 

[BocoDragon]

To those saying you've known for 9 years or however many years, good for you! This has been the first time where Lana is unabashedly and publicly a woman, and being credited as such, thus it's considered a big deal.

Pointing out that we knew in 2003 wasn't a minimization of this milestone. It's just an interesting piece to the story.

I seem to remember in the end of the Path of Neo game, little avatars of the Wachowskis appeared, and one was blue while the other was pink, in subtle reference to Lana's nature.

 

[Gaborn]

And? I don't know if you're trying to disprove anything I said...I am simply stating that that one line from your image that she would still be biologically a male based on Y chromosome, prostate, etcs...

I'm not debating her Gender at all, she is a female.

No one is saying her biology has completely changed (although of course her body chemistry would have to a great extent) but I think that a lot of the things you mentioned we ONLY care about with transgender people. I really doubt you would walk up to a girl you thought was hot, look deep into her big beautiful eyes and say "hey baby, are you all XX so I can get my XY in your vajayjay?"

 

[WanderingWind]

Nobody who simply got pronouns wrong innocently has been shamed. Calling trans people "gross" or "it" or "not actually" their true gender hasn't gone over well, thankfully.

...okay? I am not defending or condoning any of that. I simply saying that if somebody says "it" or uses the wrong word it wouldn't hurt to find out if English is their first language, and to make a point to calmly explain what's wrong with that in this language. Not everybody is as up to par as others on this - transgender equality is a fairly new thing to a vast majority of people.

Like, this, is pretty easy to learn from.

[/IMG]

 

[mollipen]

While I agree that education and discussion is vital, tone is less important than approaching the argument seriously, and respecting the other party enough to earnestly argue with them. A placid poster isn't necessarily a more effective educator than one who approaches the topic with passion and zeal, because even words laced with honey won't feed those who've closed their mouths. As this topic goes, two people were piled on, and neither entered in with what appeared to be anything approaching a desire to add to a productive discussion.

Oh yeah, I don't disagree with that, but I do think both sides sometimes tend to just decide it's a fight, and jump into the ring swinging—versus talking a calmer, more rationale approach. (And I'm not excusing myself from that—I do it too.)

For example, on Friday, a news story was posted up on Destructoid that had a questionable comment about Poison. Given that I'm really tired of seeing people who write about games decide they always have to take a cheap shot at the character whenever they mention her, I posted a more emotional response in the comments on the post. A few other people did as well, and then some others came in and were like "WTF is the big deal?"

I decided, by chance, to check out the little Destructoid chatroom widget that runs on the site, and I ran into the author of the news story in there. She was talking about how she was getting attacked over her news story, and didn't understand why. I wrote that I'd be happy to explain if she was willing to listen , and she was.

So, I sat there and explained to her why some people like me were upset. I didn't attack her, but tried to make her understand the other side of the issue. At the end, not only did she understand and apologize, but a few people who had posted comments also apologized for how they had come off as being anti-trans.

I'm not saying you have to come at it with a weak approach, but people who don't understand something can often get defensive about the fact that they're being told they don't understand.

 

[Bomber Bob]

she's 47??? man time flies

 

[Alligatorjandro]

This is a complex issue.

 

[Oxigen_Waste]

I have all the respect in the world for transgendered people but I never really understood what drives someone to do it. I mean, is your body that important if you can be yourself with the people you love and they love you for it?

Once again, just being honest, here, not mean. I do sympathize quite heavily with the gay community but it has always been somewhat of a conundrum to me personally why you'd manipulate your body to the point where it becomes dysfunctional as opposed to behaving however you want with the functional body that you do have. This is a very weird topic, isn't it?

 

[thatbox]

...okay? I am not defending or condoning any of that. I simply saying that if somebody says "it" or uses the wrong word it wouldn't hurt to find out if English is their first language, and to make a point to calmly explain what's wrong with that in this language. Not everybody is as up to par as others on this - transgender equality is a fairly new thing to a vast majority of people.

Like, this, is pretty easy to learn from.
[/IMG]

The only person to use "it" also said that Lana wasn't "actually a woman." There are fewer ambiguous posts than you're implying.

 

[Vermillion]

I have all the respect in the world for transgendered people but I never really understood what drives someone to do it. I mean, is your body that important if you can be yourself with the people you love and they love you for it?

Once again, just being honest, here, not mean. I do sympathize quite heavily with the gay community but it has always been somewhat of a conundrum to me personally why you'd manipulate your body to the point where it becomes dysfunctional as opposed to behaving however you want with the functional body that you do have. This is a very weird topic, isn't it?

'Tis not dysfunctional, mate.

I had it explained to me like this: imagine you were suddenly transformed into a girl. Would that feel appropriate to you? Now imagine feeling like that from the day you can properly think thoughts. There's obviously a disconnect, so of course you'd take steps to fix that.

 

[WanderingWind]

The only person to use "it" also said that Lana wasn't "actually a woman." There are fewer ambiguous posts than you're implying.

So, there aren't a ton of people asking questions in every single transgender thread? Because, you know, look above.

 

[Chanser]

Good on her!

 

[Anticitizen One]

uh this was news back in like 2003

 

[thatbox]

So, there aren't a ton of people asking questions in every single transgender thread? Because, you know, look above.

Ask away!

 

[Wallach]

I have all the respect in the world for transgendered people but I never really understood what drives someone to do it. I mean, is your body that important if you can be yourself with the people you love and they love you for it?

Once again, just being honest, here, not mean. I do sympathize quite heavily with the gay community but it has always been somewhat of a conundrum to me personally why you'd manipulate your body to the point where it becomes dysfunctional as opposed to behaving however you want with the functional body that you do have. This is a very weird topic, isn't it?

I think you just misunderstand the core of it; these people are transgender before any kind of therapy or surgery. It's at the very basic element of communication between the brain and the body; imagine how you'd feel if you took your current understanding of your self and put it in a female body. These people are born into that dilemma.

 

[lexi]

uh this was news back in like 2003

To those saying you've known for 9 years or however many years, good for you! This has been the first time where Lana is unabashedly and publicly a woman, and being credited as such, thus it's considered a big deal.

That's why.

 

[Half and half]

?

I mean good for her, but not really interesting.

 

[twobear]

Good for her.

 

[Oxigen_Waste]

'Tis not dysfunctional, mate.

I had it explained to me like this: imagine you were suddenly transformed into a girl. Would that feel appropriate to you? Now imagine feeling like that from the day you can properly think thoughts. There's obviously a disconnect, so of course you'd take steps to fix that.

When I say dysfunctional I don't mean in general... but your new fake genitalia would essentially be there for a form factor as opposed to a function factor.

For example, let's say I was suddenly a girl now, woke one day and puff, I'd be a girl. I'd rather stay a lesbian woman and still manage to have fun with and enjoy my body than go the trans route and end up with a body that looks right but will never be able to perform. Because when you get deep down into it, no matter how many surgeries you undergo, you'll never really be able to change anything except your own perceptions of things.

The act of going trans is a triumph of form over function, is my main point. And I cannot understand why someone would undergo that route. It seems to me like a shallow option.

I think you just misunderstand the core of it; these people are transgender before any kind of therapy or surgery. It's at the very basic element of communication between the brain and the body; imagine how you'd feel if you took your current understanding of your self and put it in a female body. These people are born into that dilemma.

Like I previously said, I understand that dillema, but sacrificing a functional organism for one that isn't and is essentially a hollow shell makes no sense to me. It just seems... shallow, to be honest.

I do not mean to offend, of course.

 

[computers putin']

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=187898
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7719220&postcount=9

Going through old threads is entertaining, Gaf has definitely become more tolerant over the years. And she looks pretty good as a woman, definite improvement in terms of looks, but the pink dreads is not a good look

 

[BocoDragon]

'Tis not dysfunctional, mate.

I had it explained to me like this: imagine you were suddenly transformed into a girl. Would that feel appropriate to you? Now imagine feeling like that from the day you can properly think thoughts. There's obviously a disconnect, so of course you'd take steps to fix that.

I dunno.. It's an interesting question. As an average person of typically matched gender/sex, I don't know if I really feel a "connect" with my physical sex, so a "disconnect" is hard to imagine. I'm comfortable with being male insofar as much as I've just gotten used to the cards I've been dealt in this life. I dont "feel male" even though I'm a typical straight dude. Actually... I don't imagine that if I were to suddenly be in a female body that it would feel wrong! I don't know if that example really works for me!

But I suppose you could really "feel it" if there was a disconnect. I can't claim to know.

 

[Vermillion]

When I say dysfunctional I don't mean in general... but your new fake genitalia would essentially be there for a form factor as opposed to a function factor.

For example, let's say I was suddenly a girl now, woke one day and puff, I'd be a girl. I'd rather stay a lesbian woman and still manage to have fun with and enjoy my body than go the trans route and end up with a body that looks right but will never be able to perform. Because when you get deep down into it, no matter how many surgeries you undergo, you'll never really be able to change anything except your own perceptions of things.

The act of going trans is a triumph of form over function, is my main point. And I cannot understand why someone would undergo that route. It seems to me like a shallow option.

I'm sure all guys say that. And for the first month, awesome.

But honestly, if you feel uncomfortable and wrong in your body, then it's worth it. And you can still have sex. Though I'm not quite sure of the difference for men. Yes, they would be infertile, but that's irrelevant in that case. For women, the vagina won't self-lubricate - and that's the main difference. They can still function as anyone else.

 

[WanderingWind]

Ask away!

I got it, now. But honestly, up until about 5 years ago, I was literally unexposed to transgender politics and nomenclatures. It moves fast, too! When I was made aware of it, tranny was acceptable (IRL, among those people). Coming online and around these parts it was shocking to find out that was unacceptable.

Basically, I probably could've gotten banned if this stuff wasn't explained to me. And I'm one hacky-sack from being the most liberal dude around. You don't know what you don't know. Tautology, sure... but also a truism.

Transgender people have had to eat a lot of shit, so I definitely understand the anger though.

 

[lexi]

I'm sure all guys say that. And for the first month, awesome.

But honestly, if you feel uncomfortable and wrong in your body, then it's worth it. And you can still have sex. Though I'm not quite sure of the difference for men. Yes, they would be infertile, but that's irrelevant in that case. For women, the vagina won't self-lubricate - and that's the main difference. They can still function as anyone else.

Not really the case these days, but your point remains.