Support NeoGAF

[Good Job Bob]

Why is this even a thing? We've known about this for a while.

;\

 

[Gaborn]

When I say dysfunctional I don't mean in general... but your new fake genitalia would essentially be there for a form factor as opposed to a function factor.

For example, let's say I was suddenly a girl now, woke one day and puff, I'd be a girl. I'd rather stay a lesbian woman and still manage to have fun with and enjoy my body than go the trans route and end up with a body that looks right but will never be able to perform. Because when you get deep down into it, no matter how many surgeries you undergo, you'll never really be able to change anything except your own perceptions of things.

The act of going trans is a triumph of form over function, is my main point. And I cannot understand why someone would undergo that route. It seems to me like a shallow option.

I think you're forgetting that for most people PERCEPTION is reality. Plus, it's more than that. A lesbian is not simply a straight man with breasts. Women think differently. They're socialized differently. they want different things. Imagine growing up KNOWING that you're a girl, KNOWING that you want to be a girl and wear pretty dresses and want a barbie and an easy bake oven. imagine instead being give GI Joe jeans, and super soakers. Imagine trying to explain to people why you want things associated with your non-biological sex. It's a whole process and our culture mostly FIGHTS against it.

 

[BocoDragon]

I got it, now. But honestly, up until about 5 years ago, I was literally unexposed to transgender politics and nomenclatures. It moves fast, too! When I was made aware of it, tranny was acceptable (IRL, among those people). Coming online and around these parts it was shocking to find out that was unacceptable.

Basically, I probably could've gotten banned if this stuff wasn't explained to me. And I'm one hacky-sack from being the most liberal dude around. You don't know what you don't know. Tautology, sure... but also a truism.

Transgender people have had to eat a lot of shit, so I definitely understand the anger though.

The zeitgeist on transgenderism is definitely shifting quickly.

 

[Vermillion]

I dunno.. It's an interesting question. As an average person of typically matched gender/sex, I don't know if I really feel a "connect" with my physical sex, so a "disconnect" is hard to imagine. I'm comfortable with being male insofar as much as I've just gotten used to the cards I've been dealt in this life. I dont "feel male" even though I'm a typical straight dude. Actually... I don't imagine that of I were to suddenly be in a female body that it would feel wrong!

But I suppose you could really "feel it" if there was a disconnect. I can't claim to know.

Well precisely - you're comfortable with your gender. Imagine for a moment that you weren't, that you never got used to it. Say that you were in a world where everyone called you a female, and called you by a different name.

The fact that you are currently comfortable with being a guy leads me to believe that this would all be very strange for you.

Something like that.

 

[Oxigen_Waste]

I'm sure all guys say that. And for the first month, awesome.

But honestly, if you feel uncomfortable and wrong in your body, then it's worth it. And you can still have sex. Though I'm not quite sure of the difference for men. Yes, they would be infertile, but that's irrelevant in that case. For women, the vagina won't self-lubricate - and that's the main difference. They can still function as anyone else.

I know you can still have sex, but the physical pleasure would be residual compared to maintaining the same body. It's not that hard to justify it in my case because I'm much more into the psychological nature of my sexuality than the physical, but that's essentially my "concern" here. I understand getting boobs or reshapping cheekbones and all that, but that final stage of genital reassignment make no sense to me.

 

[Vermillion]

Not really the case these days, but your point remains.

Really? Huh. I did not know this - I recall a topic we had a while back talking about this. So the only difference is fertility, then?

 

[fireside]

I think you're forgetting that for most people PERCEPTION is reality. Plus, it's more than that. A lesbian is not simply a straight man with breasts. Women think differently. They're socialized differently. they want different things. Imagine growing up KNOWING that you're a girl, KNOWING that you want to be a girl and wear pretty dresses and want a barbie and an easy bake oven. imagine instead being give GI Joe jeans, and super soakers. Imagine trying to explain to people why you want things associated with your non-biological sex. It's a whole process and our culture mostly FIGHTS against it.

But let’s not equate being a woman with liking Barbie.

 

[Vermillion]

I know you can still have sex, but the physical pleasure would be residual compared to maintaining the same body. It's not that hard to justify it in my case because I'm much more into the psychological nature of my sexuality than the physical, but that's essentially my "concern" here. I understand getting boobs or reshapping cheekbones and all that, but that final stage of genital reassignment make no sense to me.

Completeness. It is not just what everyone sees that matters.

 

[Vermillion]

I think you're forgetting that for most people PERCEPTION is reality. Plus, it's more than that. A lesbian is not simply a straight man with breasts. Women think differently. They're socialized differently. they want different things. Imagine growing up KNOWING that you're a girl, KNOWING that you want to be a girl and wear pretty dresses and want a barbie and an easy bake oven. imagine instead being give GI Joe jeans, and super soakers. Imagine trying to explain to people why you want things associated with your non-biological sex. It's a whole process and our culture mostly FIGHTS against it.

Being transgendered doesn't just have to do with those things. It's based on something intangible - not socialization or that they want pink or anything. A transgendered woman could enjoy robots and explosions and shit. Doesn't mean that she feels right being male physically.

 

[lexi]

Really? Huh. I did not know this - I recall a topic we had a while back talking about this. So the only difference is fertility, then?

Yes. It's only fairly recently that this has been possible and it entirely depends on the 'technique' of the procedure performed, but it's definitely becoming more common.

 

[Vermillion]

Yes. It's only fairly recently that this has been possible and it entirely depends on the 'technique' of the procedure performed, but it's definitely becoming more common.

Might I get a link?

Spoiler

I'm not dubious, but I'd like something to point to in the future.

 

[Sibylus]

Oh yeah, I don't disagree with that, but I do think both sides sometimes tend to just decide it's a fight, and jump into the ring swinging—versus talking a calmer, more rationale approach. (And I'm not excusing myself from that—I do it too.)

For example, on Friday, a news story was posted up on Destructoid that had a questionable comment about Poison. Given that I'm really tired of seeing people who write about games decide they always have to take a cheap shot at the character whenever they mention her, I posted a more emotional response in the comments on the post. A few other people did as well, and then some others came in and were like "WTF is the big deal?"

I decided, by chance, to check out the little Destructoid chatroom widget that runs on the site, and I ran into the author of the news story in there. She was talking about how she was getting attacked over her news story, and didn't understand why. I wrote that I'd be happy to explain if she was willing to listen , and she was.

So, I sat there and explained to her why some people like me were upset. I didn't attack her, but tried to make her understand the other side of the issue. At the end, not only did she understand and apologize, but a few people who had posted comments also apologized for how they had come off as being anti-trans.

I'm not saying you have to come at it with a weak approach, but people who don't understand something can often get defensive about the fact that they're being told they don't understand.

Yes, I definitely agree with you here. Placid tone is great if both parties signal they want it, in all other cases it's possible to argue strenuously and still respect the other party.

When I say dysfunctional I don't mean in general... but your new fake genitalia would essentially be there for a form factor as opposed to a function factor.

For example, let's say I was suddenly a girl now, woke one day and puff, I'd be a girl. I'd rather stay a lesbian woman and still manage to have fun with and enjoy my body than go the trans route and end up with a body that looks right but will never be able to perform. Because when you get deep down into it, no matter how many surgeries you undergo, you'll never really be able to change anything except your own perceptions of things.

The act of going trans is a triumph of form over function, is my main point. And I cannot understand why someone would undergo that route. It seems to me like a shallow option.

Well, what needs to be pointed out is that you're fixating too strongly on the physical act of surgery in isolation. Gender dysphoria is not a "form over function" crisis, but the exact opposite: brain structure and body structure are fundamentally at odds, it causes no small amount of (involuntary) distress because their brain is primed for a body and a hormone balance that was not assigned to them at birth. Hormone replacement and surgery exist and are sought out not as some aesthetic conceit, but as a medical correction of a situation far worse than any measure of sterility or reduced sexual satisfaction. Quality of life, life itself, those are the things that hang in the balance here.

 

[Gaborn]

But let’s not equate being a woman with liking Barbie.

I wasn't exclusively, it was meant as examples not absolutes.

Being transgendered doesn't just have to do with those things. It's based on something intangible - not socialization or that they want pink or anything. A transgendered woman could enjoy robots and explosions and shit. Doesn't mean that she feels right being male physically.

Oh I know. I was trying to give him an easy way of looking at the difference. Some boys without gender identity issues probably want those things as well. But I was trying to get oxigen more thinking in the mindset of what it MIGHT feel like to be trans at least a little bit.

 

[BocoDragon]

Well precisely - you're comfortable with your gender. Imagine for a moment that you weren't, that you never got used to it. Say that you were in a world where everyone called you a female, and called you by a different name.

The fact that you are currently comfortable with being a guy leads me to believe that this would all be very strange for you.

Something like that.

I dunno.. I really wonder if it wouldn't be wierd at all.. If you gave me different cards, I would just play a different game.. But I can never know.

The wierd thing is that a lot on GAF have historically defended transgenderism by saying "gender is fluid".

But if what you are saying is true.. Then gender is NOT fluid. It's fixed at birth... It's just that some people get assigned a gender that typically corresponds to a different body.

 

[Gaborn]

I dunno.. I really wonder if it wouldn't be wierd at all.. If you gave me different cards, I would just play a different game.. But I can never know.

The wierd thing is that a lot on GAF have historically defended transgenderism by saying "gender is fluid".

But if what you are saying is true.. Then gender is NOT fluid. It's fixed at birth... It's just that some people get assigned a gender that typically corresponds to a different body.

Gender EXPRESSION is often fluid (check the gingerbread person). Historically just as various activities have been defined as masculine or feminine people are likely to display masculine and feminine traits over the course of their life. That doesn't make a person any less their gender identity.

 

[Vermillion]

Oh I know. I was trying to give him an easy way of looking at the difference. Some boys without gender identity issues probably want those things as well. But I was trying to get oxigen more thinking in the mindset of what it MIGHT feel like to be trans at least a little bit.

Ah, sorry.

I dunno.. I really wonder if it wouldn't be wierd at all.. If you gave me different cards, I would just play a different game.. But I can never know.

The wierd thing is that a lot on GAF have historically defended transgenderism by saying "gender is fluid".

But if what you are saying is true.. Then gender is NOT fluid. It's fixed at birth... It's just that some people get assigned a gender that typically corresponds to a different body.

Perhaps so. I imagine I may have done the same. But transgender people feel wrong about it, and so.

I wouldn't understand how gender is fluid. Sexuality can be fluid (moreso in females than males), but not gender.

EDIT: Ah, Gaborn's post explains it.

 

[Oxigen_Waste]

I think you're forgetting that for most people PERCEPTION is reality. Plus, it's more than that. A lesbian is not simply a straight man with breasts. Women think differently. They're socialized differently. they want different things. Imagine growing up KNOWING that you're a girl, KNOWING that you want to be a girl and wear pretty dresses and want a barbie and an easy bake oven. imagine instead being give GI Joe jeans, and super soakers. Imagine trying to explain to people why you want things associated with your non-biological sex. It's a whole process and our culture mostly FIGHTS against it.

I don't think that's it. At all. One of my closest friends is quite gay and he's always behaved "the other way" and nobody really cared much... I myself grew up playing with dolls as I've always prefered them to cars and action figures... those are requirements of fulfillment. Undergoing surgery to change your sexual identity is merely paiting something a different color... underneath the hood it's still the same. Which is why I think it's shallow. You're not changing anything except how it looks. You'll be the same person... you see, it's the necessity of changing your body that I don't understand... especially as you are only changing things on a cosmetic level. Therefore... shallow.

Completeness. It is not just what everyone sees that matters.

Yeah but you're not really complete, are you? Ever. You'll look like one of them, but you still aren't one of them.

Well, what needs to be pointed out is that you're fixating too strongly on the physical act of surgery in isolation. Gender dysphoria is not a "form over function" crisis, but the exact opposite: brain structure and body structure are fundamentally at odds, it causes no small amount of (involuntary) distress because their brain is primed for a body and a hormone balance that was not assigned to them at birth. Hormone replacement and surgery exist and are sought out not as some aesthetic conceit, but as a medical correction of a situation far worse than any measure of sterility or reduced sexual satisfaction. Quality of life, life itself, those are the things that hang in the balance here.

The hormones I get. But the surgical procedures change nothing except how it looks. The only part I don't get is that. And that part is undeniably a matter of form, not function (which hormones, on the other hand, are).

 

[lexi]

Might I get a link?

Spoiler

I'm not dubious, but I'd like something to point to in the future.

Maybe not right now, I'm currently at work.

Oxigen, you're being a little bit obtuse about this, you're suggesting that trans women should be perfectly A-OK with having a penis, and that wanting something more congruent is shallow.

 

[Ashhong]

I don't think that's it. At all. One of my closest friends is quite gay and he's always behaved "the other way" and nobody really cared much... I myself grew up playing with dolls as I've always prefered them to cars and action figures... those are requirements of fulfillment. Undergoing surgery to change your sexual identity is merely paiting something a different color... underneath the hood it's still the same. Which is why I think it's shallow. You're not changing anything except how it looks. You'll be the same person... you see, it's the necessity of changing your body that I don't understand... especially as you are only changing things on a cosmetic level. Therefore... shallow.

As someone with a close friend about to get cosmetic surgery after dealing with gender confusion for many years, I strongly disagree with your notion. However I can't put it into words without revealing more about his situation, which I don't feel comfortable doing.

 

[Vermillion]

Yeah but you're not really complete, are you? Ever. You'll look like one of them, but you still aren't one of them.

Ouch, slightly harsh, I'd think. The point is that it helps a lot, and as science progresses, the differences further vanish. You'd essentially be the same as a man/woman who can't have kids, physically.

Maybe not right now, I'm currently at work.

Alright; later, then.

 

[Gaborn]

I don't think that's it. At all. One of my closest friends is quite gay and he's always behaved "the other way" and nobody really cared much... I myself grew up playing with dolls as I've always prefered them to cars and action figures... those are requirements of fulfillment. Undergoing surgery to change your sexual identity is merely paiting something a different color... underneath the hood it's still the same. Which is why I think it's shallow. You're not changing anything except how it looks. You'll be the same person... you see, it's the necessity of changing your body that I don't understand... especially as you are only changing things on a cosmetic level. Therefore... shallow.

It's not merely cosmetic or they wouldn't undergo HRT too (hormone replacement therapy). The way you present yourself to the world is often a fundamental part of your identity. And we ALL know that for most guys their penis is a very important part of their identity. and for a transwoman the penis they were born with is often seen as disgusting, as alien, as their "enemy" if you will. As an extremely negative thing. a mistake of nature if you will. Yes there are some things they'll never be able to change, but their goal is to get their body as closely aligned to their gender as possible and sometimes they can get quite close:

 

[Emitan]

.

 

[Joel Was Right]

*Opens thread*

Cmd + F "banned"

 

[Oxigen_Waste]

As someone with a close friend about to get cosmetic surgery after dealing with gender confusion for many years, I strongly disagree with your notion. However I can't put it into words without revealing more about his situation, which I don't feel comfortable doing.

Well I'm afraid I can't really do much about it, then. =S

Ouch, slightly harsh, I'd think. The point is that it helps a lot, and as science progresses, the differences further vanish. You'd essentially be the same as a man/woman who can't have kids, physically.

Oh, sorry, didn't mean to hurt. :S

If you are a trans, rest assured that I'm not "disgusted" or turned off by you people, I just don't fully understand your decisions/priorities. I actually quite like you guys, usually a cheerie bunch. =D

It's just that... you know what I mean, right now we're still at a point where replicating a mostly fully functioning reproductive system on an individual is still a ways away, yeah?

Ideally, there would be some way of "exchanging bodies" (such as brain transplants when we do get around to making those work) with someone else, in which case yes, you'd fully be a woman or a man. As it is, it's a bit like pretending you're something you're not. Which in my head is bizarre. Who you are is the sum of all your social attitudes and sexual impulses which dictate the way you work... your body is just a shell to have some fun with... why obsess over it?

It's not merely cosmetic or they wouldn't undergo HRT too (hormone replacement therapy). The way you present yourself to the world is often a fundamental part of your identity. And we ALL know that for most guys their penis is a very important part of their identity. and for a transwoman the penis they were born with is often seen as disgusting, as alien, as their "enemy" if you will. As an extremely negative thing. a mistake of nature if you will. Yes there are some things they'll never be able to change, but their goal is to get their body as closely aligned to their gender as possible and sometimes they can get quite close:

I "get" HRT. Completely. As in that case I totally agree, it's a matter of function... it changes who you are and how you behave. As for the rest I still think it's more of a matter of obsessing over your body instead of just letting go and enjoying yourself. Cosmetic change is all fine and good... grow your hair, get some boobs, whatever... I totally would get with that girl (who I assume used to be a boy), but the point when cosmetic change becomes something that impaires your ability to enjoy life (ie, gender reassignment) it stops making sense to me. To put things in perspective: I wouldn't mind at all if that lovely lady had a penis. But if she had a fake 'gina I probably wouldn't be able to enjoy it. It's the notion that it's fake that bugs me, and also the notion that try as I might I wouldn't really be able to give her any significant amount of physical pleasure, and that it'd be a detached experience for her... I dunno, I'm very weird and particular about this, I guess... lol

In my opinion, what makes her a woman is her personality, not her genitals.

 

[Sibylus]

The hormones I get. But the surgical procedures change nothing except how it looks. The only part I don't get is that. And that part is undeniably a matter of form, not function (which hormones, on the other hand, are).

In addition to what Gaborn said, self-sensation of the body (ie "feel") is also an important factor one shouldn't overlook here. The brain maps the body, and to have organs that don't fit the specification, or lacking ones that do, that can also be the root of no small amount of distress (again, involuntary) for trans men and women. Rather than it being as you say, surgery can actually have quite a bit of import with regard to the healthy function of the individual's mind and body. What you tout as undeniable is actually misrepresentation.

 

[SlowRevolution]

Good for her, that takes a lot of courage.

 

[BocoDragon]

Gender EXPRESSION is often fluid (check the gingerbread person). Historically just as various activities have been defined as masculine or feminine people are likely to display masculine and feminine traits over the course of their life. That doesn't make a person any less their gender identity.

Ok I can see that. One of the things that confused me about transgenderism is that its not simply enough for boys to like "girly things" (and vice versa for females). Lots of typical gender/sex combinations like things their gender isn't "supposed to".. And of course homosexuality exists and certainly doesn't imply transgenderism. So a boy "acting girly", "liking girly things" or "liking men" isn't a basis for feeling like a girl.

If there is some internal, inflexible "gender feeling" and it's mismatched, then I get the concept.

 

[Vermillion]

Oh, sorry, didn't mean to hurt. :S

If you are a trans, rest assured that I'm not "disgusted" or turned off by you people, I just don't fully understand your decisions/priorities. I actually quite like you guys, usually a cheerie bunch. =D

It's just that... you know what I mean, right now we're still at a point where replicating a mostly fully functioning reproductive system on an individual is still a ways away, yeah?

Ideally, there would be some way of "exchanging bodies" (such as brain transplants when we do get around to making those work) with someone else, in which case yes, you'd fully be a woman or a man. As it is, it's a bit like pretending you're something you're not. Which in my head is bizarre. Who you are is the sum of all your social attitudes and sexual impulses which dictate the way you work... your body is just a shell to have some fun with... why obsess over it?

No, I'm not transgendered/transsexual (and I'd warn against using the words "you people").

It's not pretending you're something you're not. In fact, that gives me an idea - you say that it's strange to be pretending to be something you're not - that's exactly how it feels for transgendered people from the day they can think things. They feel like they're pretending. And what they're doing with surgery is making themselves right. And the body isn't just a shell, it's something more.

I "get" HRT. Completely. As in that case I totally agree, it's a matter of function... it changes who you are and how you behave. As for the rest I still think it's more of a matter of obsessing over your body instead of just letting go and enjoying yourself. Cosmetic change is all fine and good... grow your hair, get some boobs, whatever... I totally would get with that girl (who I assume used to be a boy), but the point when cosmetic change becomes something that impaires your ability to enjoy life (ie, gender reassignment) it stops making sense to me. To put things in perspective: I wouldn't mind at all if that lovely lady had a penis. But if she had a fake 'gina I probably wouldn't be able to enjoy it. It's the notion that it's fake that bugs me, and also the notion that try as I might I wouldn't really be able to give her any significant amount of physical pleasure, and that it'd be a detached experience for her... I dunno, I'm very weird and particular about this, I guess... lol

In my opinion, what makes her a woman is her personality, not her genitals.

You wouldn't be able to tell the difference. She'd be the same as any woman who can't have kids. And the cosmetic changes are part of the whole that makes them feel... well, whole!

Ok I can see that. One of the things that confused me about transgenderism is that its not simply enough for boys to like "girly things" (and vice versa for females). Lots of typical gender/sex combinations like things their gender isn't "supposed to".. And of course homosexuality exists and certainly doesn't imply transgenderism. So a boy "acting girly", "liking girly things" or "liking men" isn't a basis for feeling like a girl.

If there is some internal, inflexible "gender feeling" and it's mismatched, then I get the concept.

Bingo!

 

[yeoz]

Gender EXPRESSION is often fluid (check the gingerbread person).

Genderbread cookies for everyone!

 

[Oxigen_Waste]

In addition to what Gaborn said, self-sensation of the body (ie "feel") is also an important factor one shouldn't overlook here. The brain maps the body, and to have organs that don't fit the specification, or lacking ones that do, that can also be the root of no small amount of distress (again, involuntary) for trans men and women. Rather than it being as you say, surgery can actually have quite a bit of import with regard to the healthy function of the individual's mind and body. What you tout as undeniable is actually misrepresentation.

Ashe, it's ok to be shallow, you know? We're all shallow to a certain degree. I take pride in how I look and I take care of my body. But I'm not kidding myself into saying it's anything but me being shallow.
If you can't be comfortable because your body is a certain way, that's a shallow concern (unless of course it limits your motor capacities)... by definition. And there's nothing wrong with that. But let's not equate having the wrong genitals with losing a limb, here. Having the "right" genitals assigned to you via surgery makes you no more functional than you were before... in fact it makes you slightly less functional. And of course it can make you much more comfortable with yourself and therefore making you a happier person... but if you weren't being shallow about it in the first place then it wouldn't even bother you, would it?

Sorry about my wiseass tone here... I know this is serious stuff. :S

 

[NewGamePlus]

but the point when cosmetic change becomes something that impaires your ability to enjoy life (ie, gender reassignment) it stops making sense to me.

Reassignment doesn't impair one's ability to enjoy life, dysphoria does.

But let's not equate having the wrong genitals with losing a limb, here.

Actually V. S. Ramachandran, the leading researcher on phantom limb syndrome says it's actually very similar to losing a limb in certain ways. Here and here.

 

[Mumei]

To the GAF LGBT community (and those who purport to support them) - if you do not like what someone is saying, why not try to engage in actual conversation about why you disagree, instead of the far-to-common "it's a bigot - ban him/her!"

As a member of the G part of the LGBT community, I agree that education should be the first goal. I remember when I first came out, I was 20 years old and had never met anyone who I knew was transgender. So when I started going to a local youth center to meet other young people around my age in a less.... bar-like setting (I was introduced to it by the first person I had come out to), I was also meeting transgender people for the first time. At the time I was less sensitive about issues of pronouns, and wasn't really sure what the rules were. I made it needlessly complicated for myself by wondering about various degrees of transitioning and wondering when you used what pronoun, and I did somersaults avoiding using pronouns until I figured it out. I also was not aware that the word "tranny" was considered offensive, though I fortunately did not refer to anyone as that. I had simply thought it was a cutesy diminutive, and I like cutesy diminutives.

And I learned: the proper thing to do is to refer to someone by the gender that they identify by. I learned that tranny is offensive for various reasons that someone from Trans-GAF can likely explain more eloquently and accurately than I could.

So I can appreciate, as someone who was ignorant about these things and is still ignorant enough to worry about saying something wrong, the importance of educating others and of being educated.

I don't think that a lack of effort to educate people is a problem in this particular topic, however. It seems like there is quite a bit of that.

 

[fireside]

Well I'm afraid I can't really do much about it, then. =S

Oh, sorry, didn't mean to hurt. :S

If you are a trans, rest assured that I'm not "disgusted" or turned off by you people, I just don't fully understand your decisions/priorities. I actually quite like you guys, usually a cheerie bunch. =D

It's just that... you know what I mean, right now we're still at a point where replicating a mostly fully functioning reproductive system on an individual is still a ways away, yeah?

Ideally, there would be some way of "exchanging bodies" (such as brain transplants when we do get around to making those work) with someone else, in which case yes, you'd fully be a woman or a man. As it is, it's a bit like pretending you're something you're not. Which in my head is bizarre. Who you are is the sum of all your social attitudes and sexual impulses which dictate the way you work... your body is just a shell to have some fun with... why obsess over it?

I "get" HRT. Completely. As in that case I totally agree, it's a matter of function... it changes who you are and how you behave. As for the rest I still think it's more of a matter of obsessing over your body instead of just letting go and enjoying yourself. Cosmetic change is all fine and good... grow your hair, get some boobs, whatever... I totally would get with that girl (who I assume used to be a boy), but the point when cosmetic change becomes something that impaires your ability to enjoy life (ie, gender reassignment) it stops making sense to me. To put things in perspective: I wouldn't mind at all if that lovely lady had a penis. But if she had a fake 'gina I probably wouldn't be able to enjoy it. It's the notion that it's fake that bugs me, and also the notion that try as I might I wouldn't really be able to give her any significant amount of physical pleasure, and that it'd be a detached experience for her... I dunno, I'm very weird and particular about this, I guess... lol

In my opinion, what makes her a woman is her personality, not her genitals.

Trans women who get genital reassignment surgery can feel pleasure from the “new” genitalia. In some cases, they can derive more pleasure than before because they have genitals that are congruent with their gender.

 

[lexi]

Trans women who get genital reassignment surgery can feel pleasure from the “new” genitalia. In some cases, they can derive more pleasure than before because they have genitals that are congruent with their gender.

This. You know they're more than just a decoration Oxigen

 

[Emitan]

For the record I have zero interest in sex with my body the way it is. Sometimes (most of the time) I can't stand to look myself. My body is "dysfunctional" the way it is right now.

 

[astroturfing]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=187898

WOW.

what... the... fuck.

so many bigoted and hateful and just nasty comments, even from well-known respected posters. yes its from 2007 and GAF has changed but still... unbelievable.

 

[Oxigen_Waste]

No, I'm not transgendered/transsexual (and I'd warn against using the words "you people").

It's not pretending you're something you're not. In fact, that gives me an idea - you say that it's strange to be pretending to be something you're not - that's exactly how it feels for transgendered people from the day they can think things. They feel like they're pretending. And what they're doing with surgery is making themselves right. And the body isn't just a shell, it's something more.

I know, it sounded wrong as soon as I read it. But I didn't mean nothing by it, i settled on you people because I wanted to include both ladies and gentlemen.

As for the rest, I'd say we disagree on fundamental levels, here... because if someone is pretending to bo someone other than who they are, I think it's a psychological issue, not a physical one. I mean, they do not need to pretend. They can be whoever they want to be. If they are pretending, it's because they choose to. And that's a whole different discussion right there. We also disagree on the body issue... to me, it's an enabling shell, nothing more. To you it's something else... this is metaphysics territory, I know a dead end when I see one.

You wouldn't be able to tell the difference. She'd be the same as any woman who can't have kids. And the cosmetic changes are part of the whole that makes them feel... well, whole!

I'm sorry but yeah, I would. This is something that is apparently universal... Nothing can emulate the way a woman feels on the inside or the way she smells. Surgical vaginas can't emulate convulsions and contractions, nor are they equipped to accomodate to the penis the same way that the vaginal canal is (it "adapts" to the penis). A fake vagina will not react to stimulation at all. And I do love to go down on woman... believe me the taste, smell and reactions are the most important part about it. A fake vagina looks the part, but it doesn't feel the part at all. It's a flesh hole. In other words, I have no interest whatsoever in a vagina that gives it's owner very little if any pleasure other than the psychological notion behind it. I'd rather have some bum fun with such a lady. =P At least I'd know she was getting something out of it other than the satisfaction of getting me off or feeling like a woman.

 

[Vermillion]

As a member of the G part of the LGBT community, I agree that education should be the first goal. I remember when I first came out, I was 20 years old and had never met anyone who I knew was transgender. So when I started going to a local youth center to meet other young people around my age in a less.... bar-like setting (I was introduced to it by the first person I had come out to), I was also meeting transgender people for the first time. At the time I was less sensitive about issues of pronouns, and wasn't really sure what the rules were. I made it needlessly complicated for myself by wondering about various degrees of transitioning and wondering when you used what pronoun, and I did somersaults avoiding using pronouns until I figured it out. I also was not aware that the word "tranny" was considered offensive, though I fortunately did not refer to anyone as that. I had simply thought it was a cutesy diminutive, and I like cutesy diminutives.

And I learned: the proper thing to do is to refer to someone by the gender that they identify by. I learned that tranny is offensive for various reasons that someone from Trans-GAF can likely explain more eloquently and accurately than I could.

So I can appreciate, as someone who was ignorant about these things and is still ignorant enough to worry about saying something wrong, the importance of educating others and of being educated.

I don't think that a lack of effort to educate people is a problem in this particular topic, however. It seems like there is quite a bit of that.

I learned that the reason for anything being offensive is always the same one. People have used it/are using it to offend/discredit transgender people. Replace the underlined and you have the reason for every offensive word ever.

 

[Sibylus]

Ashe, it's ok to be shallow, you know? We're all shallow to a certain degree. I take pride in how I look and I take care of my body. But I'm not kidding myself into saying it's anything but me being shallow.
If you can't be comfortable because your body is a certain way, that's a shallow concern (unless of course it limits your motor capacities)... by definition. And there's nothing wrong with that. But let's not equate having the wrong genitals with losing a limb, here. Having the "right" genitals assigned to you via surgery makes you no more functional than you were before... in fact it makes you slightly less functional. And of course it can make you much more comfortable with yourself and therefore making you a happier person... but if you weren't being shallow about it in the first place then it wouldn't even bother you, would it?

Sorry about my wiseass tone here... I know this is serious stuff. :S

If shallow is applicable to the brain accounting every part being in its rightful place, and being at peace with that, then the word has lost all descriptive power. That alone should be rebuttal enough, but Fireside's post is also ample evidence to the contrary (to which I'll add that I've heard reports of the inverse, of impaired function of "born" genitalia due to dysphoria). "Shallow" is plainly inapplicable here.

Spoiler

That's also Drow Ranger. Upgrade to Dota 2, knave.

 

[Emitan]

'm sorry but yeah, I would. This is something that is apparently universal... Nothing can emulate the way a woman feels on the inside or the way she smells. Surgical vaginas can't emulate convulsions and contractions, nor are they equipped to accomodate to the penis the same way that the vaginal canal is (it "adapts" to the penis). A fake vagina will not react to stimulation at all. And I do love to go down on woman... believe me the taste, smell and reactions are the most important part about it. A fake vagina looks the part, but it doesn't feel the part at all. It's a flesh hole. In other words, I have no interest whatsoever in a vagina that gives it's owner very little if any pleasure other than the psychological notion behind it. I'd rather have some bum fun with such a lady. =P At least I'd know she was getting something out of it other than the satisfaction of getting me off or feeling like a woman.

How many trans women have you slept with?

 

[Kinitari]

For the record I have zero interest in sex with my body the way it is. Sometimes (most of the time) I can't stand to look myself. My body is "dysfunctional" the way it is right now.

That doesn't sound like a healthy attitude to have at all Billi - sometimes I doubt my hotness - but that shit goes down a dark path! Be happier with yourself!

 

[Emitan]

That doesn't sound like a healthy attitude to have at all Billi - sometimes I doubt my hotness - but that shit goes down a dark path! Be happier with yourself!

Oh, I know. Can't do anything about that until I look more feminine.

 

[elrechazado]

that pic in the op looks really really

Spoiler

90's

 

[Rayis]

Very good for her! I'm always so happy when I see successful transitions! she looks very happy

 

[fireside]

I know, it sounded wrong as soon as I read it. But I didn't mean nothing by it, i settled on you people because I wanted to include both ladies and gentlemen.

As for the rest, I'd say we disagree on fundamental levels, here... because if someone is pretending to bo someone other than who they are, I think it's a psychological issue, not a physical one. I mean, they do not need to pretend. They can be whoever they want to be. If they are pretending, it's because they choose to. And that's a whole different discussion right there. We also disagree on the body issue... to me, it's an enabling shell, nothing more. To you it's something else... this is metaphysics territory, I know a dead end when I see one.

Your body is more than a shell, it’s part of who you are and how you experience the world.

I'm sorry but yeah, I would. This is something that is apparently universal... Nothing can emulate the way a woman feels on the inside or the way she smells. Surgical vaginas can't emulate convulsions and contractions, nor are they equipped to accomodate to the penis the same way that the vaginal canal is (it "adapts" to the penis). A fake vagina will not react to stimulation at all. And I do love to go down on woman... believe me the taste, smell and reactions are the most important part about it. A fake vagina looks the part, but it doesn't feel the part at all. It's a flesh hole. In other words, I have no interest whatsoever in a vagina that gives it's owner very little if any pleasure other than the psychological notion behind it. I'd rather have some bum fun with such a lady. =P At least I'd know she was getting something out of it other than the satisfaction of getting me off or feeling like a woman.

Why do you keep ignoring everyone who is telling you that trans women who have undergone GRS can still feel pleasure?

 

[Gaborn]

Oh, I know. Can't do anything about that until I look more feminine.

I think it's quite a journey you're on, one with many stops. But every step along the path matters, even if you don't look more feminine yet - because each step along the path informs and leads to the next. You've taken some HUGE steps already, you should give yourself a ton of credit and respect for that, because that's what I think you deserve.

 

[Vermillion]

I know, it sounded wrong as soon as I read it. But I didn't mean nothing by it, i settled on you people because I wanted to include both ladies and gentlemen.

As for the rest, I'd say we disagree on fundamental levels, here... because if someone is pretending to bo someone other than who they are, I think it's a psychological issue, not a physical one. I mean, they do not need to pretend. They can be whoever they want to be. If they are pretending, it's because they choose to. And that's a whole different discussion right there. We also disagree on the body issue... to me, it's an enabling shell, nothing more. To you it's something else... this is metaphysics territory, I know a dead end when I see one.

It's called gender dysphoria, and yes, they can be who they want to be. They want to be physically different to match who they are mentally.

The body is your closest tool.

I'm sorry but yeah, I would. This is something that is apparently universal... Nothing can emulate the way a woman feels on the inside or the way she smells. Surgical vaginas can't emulate convulsions and contractions, nor are they equipped to accomodate to the penis the same way that the vaginal canal is (it "adapts" to the penis). A fake vagina will not react to stimulation at all. And I do love to go down on woman... believe me the taste, smell and reactions are the most important part about it. A fake vagina looks the part, but it doesn't feel the part at all. It's a flesh hole. In other words, I have no interest whatsoever in a vagina that gives it's owner very little if any pleasure other than the psychological notion behind it. I'd rather have some bum fun with such a lady. =P At least I'd know she was getting something out of it other than the satisfaction of getting me off or feeling like a woman.

You've never had sex with a transgender woman, so you wouldn't know, would you? And they can still orgasm, you know. The vagina functions normally, to my knowledge.

 

[lexi]

I'm sorry but yeah, I would. This is something that is apparently universal... Nothing can emulate the way a woman feels on the inside or the way she smells. Surgical vaginas can't emulate convulsions and contractions, nor are they equipped to accomodate to the penis the same way that the vaginal canal is (it "adapts" to the penis). A fake vagina will not react to stimulation at all. And I do love to go down on woman... believe me the taste, smell and reactions are the most important part about it. A fake vagina looks the part, but it doesn't feel the part at all. It's a flesh hole. In other words, I have no interest whatsoever in a vagina that gives it's owner very little if any pleasure other than the psychological notion behind it. I'd rather have some bum fun with such a lady. =P At least I'd know she was getting something out of it other than the satisfaction of getting me off or feeling like a woman.

It bothers me a little bit that you speak so factually and with such conviction, on something you can't know, you have made so many incorrect assumptions that it is an epic undertaking to correct them all.

Anecdotally, I know a trans woman who was in a very sexual relationship for 4 months with another woman. This woman, a seasoned lesbian said she couldn't tell the difference, she didn't even know that she was trans, until said friend informed her. I suppose you claim that you would know better?

 

[Emitan]

I think it's quite a journey you're on, one with many stops. But every step along the path matters, even if you don't look more feminine yet - because each step along the path informs and leads to the next. You've taken some HUGE steps already, you should give yourself a ton of credit and respect for that, because that's what I think you deserve.

Unfortunately other people's praise has no effect on me for more than about 24 hours no matter how much I wish I didn't have self loathing issues. But this isn't the thread for that.

 

[Platy]

I'm sorry but yeah, I would. This is something that is apparently universal... Nothing can emulate the way a woman feels on the inside or the way she smells. Surgical vaginas can't emulate convulsions and contractions, nor are they equipped to accomodate to the penis the same way that the vaginal canal is (it "adapts" to the penis). A fake vagina will not react to stimulation at all. And I do love to go down on woman... believe me the taste, smell and reactions are the most important part about it. A fake vagina looks the part, but it doesn't feel the part at all. It's a flesh hole. In other words, I have no interest whatsoever in a vagina that gives it's owner very little if any pleasure other than the psychological notion behind it. I'd rather have some bum fun with such a lady. =P At least I'd know she was getting something out of it other than the satisfaction of getting me off or feeling like a woman.

Just to give you a small example of why are you completly wrong, smell comes from hormones and there are a considerable amount of reports of pre-op mtf that has THAT smell that you say in your quote =P