So because I didn't know you're meant to refer to transgender people by their current sex retrospectively, I'm a bigot, and am not even allowed to ask what is the correct terminology?
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Larry Wachowski publicly debuts as... Lana Wachowski
- Thread starter NotTheGuyYouKill
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Vermillion
Banned
...
I'm just watching for the bans.
But while I'm here, good for her.
EDIT: And the rage.
I'm just watching for the bans.
But while I'm here, good for her.
EDIT: And the rage.
Stop projecting. You'll be happier for it.
I don't know, I am more optimistic than that. Not to name names - but look at old threads, a lot of gaffers who used to a bit more... harsh or unmoving in their opinions on a whole host of matters are now often the same members who will defend those points they used to rail against.
If you survive on GAF, you tend to chill.
The fact that we have people arguing whether or not it's a complex or simple issue, is evidence enough that people are just looking for a fight.
I've said my piece... I think his wording was very unfortunate, but a honest mistake. Good for Lana on getting to a place where she feels more comfortable and at peace.
I've said my piece... I think his wording was very unfortunate, but a honest mistake. Good for Lana on getting to a place where she feels more comfortable and at peace.
Be honest GAF.
Way better photo. Put it on the first page.
Really now? Smh.
abstract alien
Member
That pic in the OP is fucking hilarious, and bad. We would say the same thing if it actually were a woman and saw that pic.
JeTmAn81
Member
That's not what I was talking about. I was referring to the interaction between transgender people, their preferences, and society at large. The idea that someone would want to begin living and identifying as a gender other than the one to which they were physically born is quite foreign to most people. Your physical body makes up a large part of your identity to yourself and others, and the desire to diverge from your physiology so strongly is quite unusual.
To wit: it's easy to understand why someone would want to be referred to using pronouns corresponding to their chosen gender regardless of biology, just as it's easy to understand why others might not be so keen to use similar language when their ideas of gender are so different.
Vermillion
Banned
I'm thinking of one in particular. Perhaps you're thinking the same.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
Well, he's banned so that's that.
This shouldn't have been a thread in the first place imho.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
Individuals who have a match between the gender they were assigned at birth, their bodies, and their personal identity
It's a way to normalize transgendered people, as you by labeling the minority often give them an even greater "abnormal" status by separating them from the average person, so when you in turn label the majority you equalize things.
I think it's something along those lines.
Plus, you also have to remember that gaf is home to a disproportionate number of teenage males and you can do a lot of growing up between say the ages of 15 and 18-19.
A person who identifies withthe gender they were born with. The antonym of transgender.
freenudemacusers
Member
yeah, i think it is a bit unfair to jump on people for errant him/her usage, since we are talking about a sex change, so I think it's kind of habit to refer to the person as their original sex. And not really mean anything by it.
So it's basically a more specific designation for a majority of people, the "standard", if I may call it that?
Interesting.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
Yeah, when you label the standard as you label the non-standard, you make things a bit more equal.
I beg your pardon?
She actually IS a woman.
The words homo- and heterosexuality were coined at the same time too, so its nothing unusual.
Have you had your chromosomes checked? Do you ask those you know to check theirs before you gender them?
Yep!
Not all that interesting if you think about it. Not too long ago, you had people who were gay and others that were just "normal" and didn't even think about a sexual identity because of it. Now, as gender identity is coming more and more into the mainstream view, it has become necessary to label those who share an assigned and expressed gender.
EDIT: beaten by the above post.
I don't think the purpose of someone getting gender reassignment is to look pretty, it's to change genders.
RedAssedApe
Banned
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
"If you're not as up-to-date on the preferred pronoun usage in any conceivable context, you're bigoted."
Think before you rage.
Roger Danish
Member
FACE-FUCKING-PALM
It's actually very interesting to see the evolution of people's attitudes on LGBT issues over even the last 5-10 years. I'm sure if you found posts of mine on other forums from five years ago, they would be reeking with ignorance as well. The difference is that it's 2012 now. I think the reason the general tone has shifted is because we as a community have made it clear that this kind of bigotry is unacceptable.
Buttonbasher
Member
Yeah since 2007/2008.
Yeah. You and I have talked about it several times. I just get so "startled" sometimes when I see articles that make a big deal out of things like this because it's just so normal to me. I just sometimes worry that people will make a bigger deal about what she wants to be called and what she does with her body than whether she's actually putting out good, emotional content with her brother. Because, after all, the only reason we even know who she is is because of the movies the two have done.
This is quite possibly the most hilarious tumblr I've ever seen. Thanks for the laugh.
Seems to make sense.
And my god, the whole transgender debate is not one I would want to get caught up in. It seems pretty easy to be respectful to a certain point, like not calling a transgender woman "he". But at some level, it gets almost impossibly complex in a social context. Like, in the hypothetical case of a transgender woman being attracted to me, I wouldn't know how to deal with it. I can deeply understand her identifying as a her and would never take that away from her. But at the same time, the biological sex is a factor that would definitely play into my decision for or against a potential partner.
Is there any broadly accepted literature on this? Because I would love to read up on possible solutions to this question.
Well, sure, but those are much more commonly used.
I seem to remember that about 10% of humans are believed to be homosexual. Is there any number on what percentage of people are born with a non-congruent gender/sex ?(Sorry if that's the wrong terminology, English is not my first language and I'm still pretty ignorant about this topic)
Question: have you ever had a gay man hit on you? If the answer is yes, how did you defuse it? A simple "Hey, thanks, but I'm not interested" pretty much works. It's just like when you find a cisgendered woman attractive, hit on her, and she turns you down. People try to make this way more complex than it is. It really is as simple as the outlined above. You don't have to do some weird dance with words to get out of it. Men, women, whatever, we're all exactly the same; you're not going to hurt the person's feelings.
I actually agree with you somewhat. (Well, the first line, not the second.)
There are some pretty terrible things said about trans people in threads that pop up on here, but unfortunately, sometimes the pro-trans side doesn't really do the argument any favors with the way responses are dealt out. Sometimes, what should be "let me try to make you understand why you shouldn't feel that way" turns into "let me punch you in the face and say how terrible you are for feeling that way"—and people who get punched in the face and told they're wrong aren't always willing to listen to the other side's opinions.
It can be hard to tell, for example, when somebody is using pronouns incorrectly because they honestly don't fully understand the topic, and when they're just being an ass about it. It's not fair to jump on everybody equally, though. The whole transgender thing can be very hard to understand, and somebody not understanding due to lack of exposure doesn't make them a bad person.
At the same time, you also can't totally blame the pro-trans side. Every time the topic comes it, threads can easily fall back into the same arguments over and over. So, after a while, it can feel very frustrating and defeating to have to start the exact same argument over from scratch for the 100th time.
Conversations like these should be less about stupid bickering, and more over spreading awareness. When we decide to break ourselves into "sides" in threads like these, then the potential for something good to come out of the conversation is automatically reduced.
Vermillion
Banned
This is true, and yes, I might make it more complex than it is.
But I think I'm kinda troubled by the fact that she identifies with the gender I am attracted to, and yet I make something that's not (at first sight) visible and that she has no control over a factor in my decision.
A good example is this rather well known German woman, Kim, formerly known as Tim. She got famous for being one of the youngest people to start a hormone treatment. The thing is, I think she's kind of an attractive woman, yet I probably couldn't date her.
This makes me feel like a bigot, but at the same time I wonder why I have to defend myself in front of myself, when I can accept a choice based on much more superficial traits.
But yeah, it's a very hypothetical question, and I should probably not waste that much time on it. People are people, and all of them deserve the same respect.
That worry is completely justified. The press will probably try to run with it. Reviews of Cloud Atlas will have people trying to pry a "GLBT agenda" out of it, if they aren't already trying to pry that out of past work, and so will every other film she's attached to. Even when there's no "agenda" to be found.
I think a lot of the problems in this thread is the lack of a differentiation between Sex and Gender. Gender Reassignment will not change the fact that somebody was born X-Y. Sex change is not the correct term for the procedure as many of the biological elements that define Sex do not change however it does alter somebodies outward Gender to move in line with what they are feeling in their minds.
I think GAF has become a far less tolerant place of late. "Bigot" has become the new "commie" (as in McCarthyism), certain GAF'ers have noticed this and are fomenting reactions, constantly calling out behaviour to attract bans and then openly congratulating themselves (and the mods) when they have achieved their goal. We used to have a policy regarding backseat moderating, but that seems to have fallen by the wayside, and the forum moderators (at least some of them) are promoting this behaviour with the heavy-handedness.
To the GAF LGBT community (and those who purport to support them) - if you do not like what someone is saying, why not try to engage in actual conversation about why you disagree, instead of the far-to-common "it's a bigot - ban him/her!"
To the GAF LGBT community (and those who purport to support them) - if you do not like what someone is saying, why not try to engage in actual conversation about why you disagree, instead of the far-to-common "it's a bigot - ban him/her!"
I think the major issue it seems that people have with transgendered men and women lies with the fact that they want to treat men and women as two completely separate things. In addressing this, I'll speak purely from the side of males: Men have this tendency to believe that all women are these delicate little flowers that you, apparently, can't fart, cuss, or spit in front of, because every woman, conceivably, is someone they could bed.
I'm not singling you out here, but you point to it in your response with "But I think I'm kinda troubled by the fact that she identifies with the gender I am attracted to." To get around thinking like that, just remember that there are undoubtedly women who are great friends/coworkers/whatever that still have all of the parts that are part of who you would find attractive but you would NEVER think about sleeping or having a relationship with. Think about it long enough and you start realizing it pretty much doesn't matter whether Lana identifies as male or female because, at the end of the day, you're not attracted to her, you're not going to sleep with her or have a relationship, and it still doesn't hurt you in any way with the women that you're interested in being with.
Also, I'm glad that you have an open mind and you can identify where you might need to let go and step beyond the very specific bolded lines that we've had in place for a long, long time. Good on you.
The poster I quoted implied that certain chromosomes are a requirement for being a woman, which is demonstrably not true. Telling a trans woman she isn't and never will be a woman is bigotry. Not knowing the terminology isn't, but hopefully people learn it and be respectful. It's not as hard as you make it out to be.
I'm not unhappy, though I'll be happier when people learn to respect each other a little bit better.
For the third time, the post I was responding to was claiming that chromosomes are a valid reason to deny someone her identity. They aren't, and that is bigotry. And preferred pronoun usage is quite simple: use the pronouns people use for themselves. Follow that and you'll be fine.
It's fine to educate people who are unfamiliar with trans folks, but there really is no argument or debate to be had.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
So unfortunate that they were known as the Wachowski Brothers. What are the odds of that irony? Is one of the Farelly Brothers trans, too?
That's what makes me sad, because their films are about the human experience. Sure, they're wrapped in a science fiction and/or apocalyptic shell, but at their core, they ask us the very basic question of what it means to be human and why it's important that we try to retain some semblance of that moving forward (Singularity and all). If anything, the platform of transgendereds is just one of many that they can/should address in their films, but I don't think it should be at the core.
Roger Danish
Member
This post is a much better example of "backseat modding" than anything else in this thread. Quoting an idiotic/bigoted statement with a "wtf bro" response is NOT backseat modding.
I see what you did there.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
yeah I seem to remember hearing about her bring trans during the release of the Matrix sequels 9 years ago.
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